Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[N3ON]

Firstly, just get that AT idea outta your head for a sec? Okay? Good. At this point he's just like any other character. Except with fan demand. And being first party. And being a character that Sakurai neglected to do not out of not being able to make it work or not being interested, but simply due to the smaller scale of GS. He doesn't have the same issue Waluigi or BWD have. The only thing that has kept Isaac out is priority. With a new game coming, he suddenly gets a lot of priority.

As well, I don't see even remotely how being an AT hurts his chances. If anything, they help a lot. The assets exist to build off of, especially with the higher res textures on the mii costume. That's a lot more than you can say about a good chunk of proposed characters, which does inherently give him a leg up in consideration.

You can't say "get the AT idea outta your head" when it might be valid. Maybe it won't be, but we can't dismiss possibilities when there's no precedent to do so. You can believe the precedent will be broken, but you can't speak definitively on the prospects of an AT being upgraded in the same game.

We can celebrate spirits getting renamed like that was any kind of obstacle, but the critical factor is a matter of principle as to believing a character already has a role and therefore won't face serious consideration for playability. It's not a technical issue, it's never been a technical issue keeping Isaac out (people who think as much misunderstand development), it'd be an ideological one.

And the only way around an ideological restriction is if Sakurai changes his mind (in which case I doubt Isaac would be first in line), Nintendo commands it (which is almost certainly contingent on a new game - and even then they might not care), or it was never a sticking point to begin with (which we're not privy to knowing, and therefore can't make assumptions regarding).

 

[NessAtc.]

It's pretty clear it was just never a sticking point to begin with. The idea that it even could be is just ludicrous. You can argue "but Smash is a different gaaaame" all you want, but it's completely and utterly moronic to outright rule out NPCs for DLC from a development standpoint. Does that mean it'll happen? Maybe, maybe not. The very *thought* that a developer would actually shelve a fan demanded character put forward by Nintendo just because "he's an AT" is just ridiculous.

 

[N3ON]

It's pretty clear it was just never a sticking point to begin with. The idea that it even could be is just ludicrous. You can argue "but Smash is a different gaaaame" all you want, but it's completely and utterly moronic to outright rule out NPCs for DLC from a development standpoint. Does that mean it'll happen? Maybe, maybe not.

So long as your words lack evidence to corroborate them they're no more than a theory.

The fact of the matter is, you can't assume information we lack. You can guess, and that's the extent of things. But when you're guessing, speaking empirically is out of turn.

Also, I didn't say this.

The very *thought* that a developer would actually shelve a fan demanded character put forward by Nintendo just because "he's an AT" is just ridiculous.

In fact, I said were Nintendo to push a character, that'd be one of the ways they could get around the barrier, should it be a thing.

 

[NessAtc.]

So long as your words lack evidence to corroborate them they're no more than a theory.

The fact of the matter is, you can't assume information we lack. You can guess, and that's the extent of things. But when you're guessing, speaking empirically is out of turn.

Here's the deal; I'm not even guessing. This is all **** that happens all the dang time in game development, ESPECIALLY for fighting games.

 

[N3ON]

Here's the deal; I'm not even guessing. This is all **** that happens all the dang time in game development, ESPECIALLY for fighting games.

Unfortunately confidence is a less valuable currency than evidence.

 

[NessAtc.]

Unfortunately confidence is a less valuable currency than evidence.

There is evidence literally everywhere. You do not need to look hard for it at all.

In fact, here's more than a few examples

Android 17* and Base Goku* from Dragon Ball FighterZ
Jubei*, Mai Natsume*, Kagura Mutsuki, Hibiki Kohaku, Yuuki Terumi*, Hazama, Tsubaki Yayoi, Kokonoe*, Makoto Nanaya*, and Valkenhayn* from Blazblue
Chaos, Mika, and Londrekia from Under Night
All Four Shadaloo Grand Masters
Kolin, Ed, Menat, Abigail, Zeku, and Falke from SFV (All six of these were NPCs)
Phoenix Wright and Doctor Strange appear in Arcade Mode endings in MvC3, and got promoted to playable in UMvC3
Thor and Arthur were once assist characters in MvC1, and got promoted in MvC3
Dan Hibiki and Joe Higashi appeared in CvS before being added proper in it's revision, CvS Pro
Croagunk was an assist in Pokken Tournament, and was added as playable in Pokken Tournament DX, it's revision.
Tatsuya* and Miyuki Shiba* in Dengeki Bunko Fighting Climax
There's far more examples than this, and this is also only limited to fighting games mind. There's even more than a few that were added in while maintaining NPC/Assist status, denoted with *

 

[Xenigma]

There is evidence literally everywhere. You do not need to look hard for it at all.

In fact, here's more than a few examples

Android 17* and Base Goku* from Dragon Ball FighterZ
Jubei*, Mai Natsume*, Kagura Mutsuki, Hibiki Kohaku, Yuuki Terumi*, Hazama, Tsubaki Yayoi, Kokonoe*, Makoto Nanaya*, and Valkenhayn* from Blazblue
Chaos, Mika, and Londrekia from Under Night
All Four Shadaloo Grand Masters
Kolin, Ed, Menat, Abigail, Zeku, and Falke from SFV (All six of these were NPCs)
Phoenix Wright and Doctor Strange appear in Arcade Mode endings in MvC3, and got promoted to playable in UMvC3
Thor and Arthur were once assist characters in MvC1, and got promoted in MvC3
Dan Hibiki and Joe Higashi appeared in CvS before being added proper in it's revision, CvS Pro
Croagunk was an assist in Pokken Tournament, and was added as playable in Pokken Tournament DX, it's revision.
Tatsuya* and Miyuki Shiba* in Dengeki Bunko Fighting Climax
There's far more examples than this, and this is also only limited to fighting games mind. There's even more than a few that were added in while maintaining NPC/Assist status, denoted with *

None of that is useful evidence though. What other developers do with their games has no impact on what Nintendo does with Smash. As it stands, we have no evidence that they are willing to upgrade an AT to playable within the same Smash game. That's not to say we won't see it happen within FP2, but until that actually happens, neither theory is more valid than the other.

 

[NessAtc.]

None of that is useful evidence though. What other developers do with their games has no impact on what Nintendo does with Smash. As it stands, we have no evidence that they are willing to upgrade an AT to playable within the same Smash game. That's not to say we won't see it happen within FP2, but until that actually happens, neither theory is more valid than the other.

I'm afraid to say you've completely and utterly missed the point. For starters, what makes you think that this isn't the case?

Also, this is completely and entirely the reason I specifically brought up "but Smash is a different game". All of these games are also different games. Made by different studios, different publishers, different developers. And yet all these and more unlisted people have opted to promote NPCs to playable. Do you really think that Sakurai won't, no, EXCLUSIVELY PROHIBITS HIMSELF doing this? There is primary merit in promoting an NPC to playable; you have established prior familiarity with the NPC role to benefit sales, and you have the grounding in developmental assets. Never even mind the fact that Isaac is a proven popular character.

The Assist Trophy role will never keep a character out, and never ****ing has. It's all about priority and Nintendo and Sakurai's interest.

 

[Nazyrus]

All of these games are also different games. Made by different studios, different publishers, different developers. And yet all these and more unlisted people have opted to promote NPCs to playable.

There is primary merit in promoting an NPC to playable; you have established prior familiarity with the NPC role to benefit sales, and you have the grounding in developmental assets. Never even mind the fact that Isaac is a proven popular character.

This, honestly. It's not uncommon at all, and there is, in fact, a merit to it. One of the many spottable charms in fighting games in particular that often happens and is a hype method to even keep their game alive, is this one, where the devs know and want to go further in the roster thanks to the attachment of the fans towards certain characters or whole franchises. So it is indeed not a matter of boundries, that's why they are called fan rules, because people lack the real perspective here, which is indeed, the fact that this is just a matter of priority from Nintendo and Sakurai, not whatever reason fans want to make up to make things seem unnecessarily harder. You can't please everyone and there are priorities, that's the only reality when some get in and some don't, but there are no boundaries in the way being the reason for it, unless we go with confirmed cases by the developer itself, such as Heihachi due to his 3D canon type of gameplay and such. Or hell, even Ridley and his big…ness, lol, and EVEN THEN, here we are, Ridley made it in. There's really no stopping Sakurai and crew when they put their mind into it, It's just a matter of what and how much Nintendo feels like adding and which fans to please based on whatever reasons they currently have, whether it's shilling something (like some characters in the DLCs), or just pleasing super devoted fans (like Banjo's), or if there's truly a limitation Sakurai confirms himself to feel about making the character feel right in smash from where such character comes from, those 2 things are literally all there is to it.

 

[Xenigma]

I'm afraid to say you've completely and utterly missed the point. For starters, what makes you think that this isn't the case?

Also, this is completely and entirely the reason I specifically brought up "but Smash is a different game". All of these games are also different games. Made by different studios, different publishers, different developers. And yet all these and more unlisted people have opted to promote NPCs to playable. Do you really think that Sakurai won't, no, EXCLUSIVELY PROHIBITS HIMSELF doing this? There is primary merit in promoting an NPC to playable; you have established prior familiarity with the NPC role to benefit sales, and you have the grounding in developmental assets. Never even mind the fact that Isaac is a proven popular character.

The Assist Trophy role will never keep a character out, and never ****ing has. It's all about priority and Nintendo and Sakurai's interest.

What other developers do still has zero bearing on Sakurai, Nintendo, and Smash. For the record, I don't believe AT promotion is a problem, and I certainly don't believe Sakurai has some written rule list saying ATs can't be promoted. You don't need to convince me, a longtime Isaac supporter, that ATs should be on the table and may well already have been. In fact, if you really want to give evidence to support your argument, you really don't need to go further than Little Mac, Isabelle, and Dark Samus, given that is all far more relevant to the discussion than whatever Capcom, Arc System Works, the Pokken team, or anyone else has done.

That still doesn't change the base fact that we don't know if ATs have been considered for Ultimate DLC or not. Until such point Sakurai says otherwise, it is equally possible that they considered every AT in the game for DLC, none of them, or any number in between. Same goes for Spirits, Mii costumes, and whatever else. You may not like that some people consider such existing content disqualifying, and I agree it's very short-sighted to believe they are following any hard rules (other than maybe no non-video game characters), but it's not productive to act like we know any better because we really don't.

 

[NessAtc.]

it is equally possible that they considered every AT in the game for DLC, none of them, or any number in between.

This is precisely why I said to stop considering Isaac as an assist trophy. He's not being picked on the merits of being one if picked. He's being picked on his own merits, with having those assets being a secondary or even tertiary factor. It's all a consideration of many different factors, with priority, and Nintendo and Sakurai's interest being first. The fan demand and the assist trophy are secondary to that, but the fan demand is likely to sway Nintendo's choices as well as Sakurai's, while the AT is also bound to sway only Sakurai's decisions.

 

[Nazyrus]

There isn't confirmation by Sakurai either that ATs are considered an obstacle, in any way. As we know, it's just what Nintendo wants, and that it has to be a video game character. Those are the official statements so far. If we're gonna question people's "evidence" (or lack of it) to believing that ATs are not really a problem, then the same can be said about those here wanting to believe so hard that AT is a limitation at all just because there is lack of "precedent", the lack of an example proving it otherwise, so far.

People were actually even thinking we wouldn't get a first party in the pass, it happened.
People thought many things weren't possible in smash so far, due to the lack of "precedent" to prove it even being possible, yet they happen. These are all fan made limitations purely based on the lack of precedents. They are STILL not official obstacles stated by devs in any way. So imo, neither side can nor should be going at each others' throats. The reality of the situation is simple: It's a mystery what can happen THIS TIME. If we keep getting focused on how things went in the past, we're gonna keep getting btfo-ed like we did already for many things that have happened. So why look dumb on any side of this situation? There should be no side, because there isn't anything solid enough solid to define what the case WILL BE in this game. No one in the fandom will ever know that, and that's a fact.

We should all just agree that there is no way to prove nor disprove whichever the case is for THIS TIME.
Lack of evidence, precedents, whatever… they are not really solid things to use for whichever argument for THIS TIME. This is why smash fan rules are waste of time imo, they purely rely on the past and they ignore entirely how many times they get proven wrong as we proceed to the future.

The most honest and true take to… well, take, on this situation, is that whichever the case really is, it's a mystery, and we have 2 years to "wait and see" by official confirmation (or deconfirmation) of whatever the hell the case is gonna be for THIS game, THIS time. Set the past aside, it has done nothing in favor to those who have done the same thing for stuff that finally ended happening already, so why continue to cling onto such fan rules? There is no point whatsoever. Again, let's agree that with THIS game, THIS time, we have no idea what will happen, anything is possible. Taking sides on this matter is just a pathetic waste of time to just feed egos ( I almost said "eggos" for some reason… I gotta stop rewatching stranger things, lol).

If there is any real precedent to anything in smash, is that people cling to how the past went and get btfo-ed to how the present goes.

 

[Cadillac]

There isn't confirmation by Sakurai either that ATs are considered an obstacle, in any way. As we know, it's just what Nintendo wants, and that it has to be a video game character. Those are the official statements so far. If we're gonna question people's "evidence" (or lack of it) to believing that ATs are not really a problem, then the same can be said about those here wanting to believe so hard that AT is a limitation at all just because there is lack of "precedent", the lack of an example proving it otherwise, so far.

People were actually even thinking we wouldn't get a first party in the pass, it happened.
People thought many things weren't possible in smash so far, due to the lack of "precedent" to prove it even being possible, yet they happen. These are all fan made limitations purely based on the lack of precedents. They are STILL not official obstacles stated by devs in any way. So imo, neither side can nor should be going at each others' throats. The reality of the situation is simple: It's a mystery what can happen THIS TIME. If we keep getting focused on how things went in the past, we're gonna keep getting btfo-ed like we did already for many things that have happened. So why look dumb on any side of this situation? There should be no side, because there isn't anything solid enough solid to define what the case WILL BE in this game. No one in the fandom will ever know that, and that's a fact.

We should all just agree that there is no way to prove nor disprove whichever the case is for THIS TIME.
Lack of evidence, precedents, whatever… they are not really solid things to use for whichever argument for THIS TIME. This is why smash fan rules are waste of time imo, they purely rely on the past and they ignore entirely how many times they get proven wrong as we proceed to the future.

The most honest and true take to… well, take, on this situation, is that whichever the case really is, it's a mystery, and we have 2 years to "wait and see" by official confirmation (or deconfirmation) of whatever the hell the case is gonna be for THIS game, THIS time. Set the past aside, it has done nothing in favor to those who have done the same thing for stuff that finally ended happening already, so why continue to cling onto such fan rules? There is no point whatsoever. Again, let's agree that with THIS game, THIS time, we have no idea what will happen, anything is possible. Taking sides on this matter is just a pathetic waste of time to just feed egos ( I almost said "eggos" for some reason… I gotta stop rewatching stranger things, lol).

If there is any real precedent to anything in smash, is that people cling to how the past went and get btfo-ed to how the present goes.

Hey, you changed your pfp. That's a cool one!

 

[Nazyrus]

Hey, you changed your pfp. That's a cool one!

lol thanks, those would be my 3 mains for the longest time in a while at this point. Altho i'm heavily starting to feel like including samus as well, after the buffs she got… she is so good now.
Artist would be @ninNakajima on twitter.

Speaking of which, guys! (as a way to deviate the convo from the needlessly arguments that lead nowhere…), what tier do you guys feel like Isaac could fall into if he ever comes? Even if you're casuals like me lol, just for fun talk. I feel he could easily be "A" tier at the very least if his moveset is as diverse, useful and him not being a slow character as we would kinda hope.

 

[Cadillac]

At least mid. His attacks would be mostly AoE thanks to it being earth-related, and Move would be the best edgeguarding tool ever.

 

[NessAtc.]

I think if done well he could be high-mid, if not high. He has range, but it's a more deliberately placed range rather than stuff like Joker's guns

 

[SPEN18]

Given how long ago the ATs were decided (relative to when these next six characters were supposedly decided), I really don't think those decisions had much to do with the DLC decisions.

Also, what's this about Sakurai not knowing about Krystal? I think that's false?

 

[Cadillac]

Given how long ago the ATs were decided (relative to when these next six characters were supposedly decided), I really don't think those decisions had much to do with the DLC decisions.

Also, what's this about Sakurai not knowing about Krystal? I think that's false?

Sakurai doesn't know Krystal? Pretty sure she was considered in Brawl but got cut due to time constraints.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Also, what's this about Sakurai not knowing about Krystal? I think that's false?

It'd be weird when the only reason she wasn't in Brawl was because it was late in development and Wolf was easier to make.

 

[NessAtc.]

Sakurai doesn't know Krystal? Pretty sure she was considered in Brawl but got cut due to time constraints.

yeah hard to claim he didn't know about Krystal when she's in the Lylat convos

 

[Cadillac]

If Isaac gets revealed with somebody else, I can finally make a meme about the newcomer asking him "You new here?" and he responds with "Not exactly."

I made this.

I hope I can finish this meme someday.

 

[Silo777]

I think Isaac will have a pretty unique play style. Being the first earth element user in Smash, his attacks would pack a punch and have good range but they’ll have to be carefully placed.

Isaac has pretty decent speed in Golden Sun, being second fastest in GS1 and I think third fastest in TLA. He’ll probably have a good running speed, I’d say slightly faster than Link. His sword attacks, however many there are, will also be quite quick.

It’ll be awesome if his Down Special is like Donkey Kong’s but slower and on steroids.

 

[Cadillac]

I think Isaac will have a pretty unique play style. Being the first earth element user in Smash, his attacks would pack a punch and have good range but they’ll have to be carefully placed.

Isaac has pretty decent speed in Golden Sun, being second fastest in GS1 and I think third fastest in TLA. He’ll probably have a good running speed, I’d say slightly faster than Link. His sword attacks, however many there are, will also be quite quick.

It’ll be awesome if his Down Special is like Donkey Kong’s but slower and on steroids.

Link is rather slow... so by "slightly faster", how much?

 

[Silo777]

Link is rather slow... so by "slightly faster", how much?

Dang, really? Dunno why I thought he was decently fast. All the different links are messing me up lmao. I guess if I had to ballpark it I’d say Isaac would be around Pit speed.

 

[Nazyrus]

Link is rather slow... so by "slightly faster", how much?

Well definitely nowhere near to byleth slow *cough* lmao

 

[Kalaam]

Or Robin slow... *cries*

 

[FlawedAI]

Well definitely nowhere near to byleth slow *cough* lmao

Or Robin slow... *cries*

Never understood why these two are so slow. It's not like canonically they're slow (they can be though, since the player decides how they grow). I guess it's for "balancing" purposes but slow characters always suffer because of their slowness (see: Zelda, Incineroar, Ganondorf).

 

[Icana]

The fighters pass vol 2 will supposedly run up to the end of next year. That's a long time! Vol 1 was finished in less than a year, starting with Joker in... April was it?

Anyway, unless dev resources for DLC is being cut hard, that should be ample time to... you know... hopefully change some spirit descriptions, add a AT toggle off, or make new ones. lol

But really, a thought that has recently struck me is Banjo and Kazooie and when plans for that character and FP vol 1 were solidfied.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/9s9sy1/phil_spencer_apparently_went_to_lunch_with/

The tweet itself is down, but Phil Spencer was meeting with Nintendo on behalf of Microsoft as a third party publisher as early as e3 2018. Papa Genos' "source" has long cited Banjo Kazooie as the reason he had thought the infamous Grinch Leak would turn out to be true since that's the big character they had heard rumblings about. It was on November 1st of 2018 that Sakurai revealed FP vol 1 and that the DLC characters were locked in and chosen by Nintendo and all that jazz.

My point is that DLC plans for Ultimate were likely a go from the beginning before E3 2018, and characters like Piranha Plant show development on DLC fighters were running well before the main game's release. It's with this in mind that I want to consider how FP vol. 2 is being developed. Right now, Sakurai has indicated that the plans for FP 2 are DONE. Solidified. However, just how far back was FP 2 being considered? If we were to assume Banjo talks were underway as early as E3 2018, the character was revealed a full year later at e3 2019. FP 2 was revealed last month, 2020 HOWEVER, the video of Byleth was recorded in November of 2019. So the plans for this next set of DLC were finished before that month.

My big point here is simple. If we consider that Nintendo were working on getting Banjo into Smash at E3 2018, while being surprised by the backlash of angry Waluigi fans who were upset he was back as an AT that very same time, the DLC fighters were perhaps already nearing lock around this period. No time to gauge immediate fan requests for FP 1. For FP 2, Nintendo already knows the characters we remain most passionate about and may have had a good idea how they want to proceed with that as early as Summer of 2019, give or take. I remember we had some user on here with inside connections (A Geno fan) saying to put the pressure on Nintendo for an FP 2, near the end of 2018 (same guy who said Nintendo was surprised by the angry/sad Isaac AT reactions. I don't remember his username). Nintendo/Sakurai may have been thinking about FP 2 before FP 1's Joker even came out.

I guess another point I'm trying to make here is that the Banjo fanservice may have been the result of the Smash Ballot as much as K. Rool was, but that character needed special negotiation and would perhaps take too much dev time away from other content for Smash Ultimate that needed to be finished for the base game. However, I think DLC to keep the game alive long term was long in the cards, and is something Nintendo has been pushing with Splatoon, Arms, Mario Tennis Aces, among other games for some time now.

In summary, our hopes for some of our current fan request, such as Isaac rests with FP 2, and that FP 1 was never going to service fan requests because it was essentially done before the Grinch Leak, feverish speculation, and everything leading up to Ultimates release. FP 2 will have the luxury of having all those elements considered for who the upcoming fighters will be.

Now all that said... I can't say I know why exactly Nintendo pushed for characters like Joker and Terry. Trying to convince Atlus and SNK to put P5 and KoF on Switch? Or maybe the big N has fanboys of these characters that they wanted to see added? lol, I don't know. Maybe they were plans for P5 Royal and KoF on switch that didn't quite pan out between 2018-2019. Who knows. Hero was marketed alongside Dragon Quest XI, and Byleth was planned well before Fire Emblem Three Houses was released in July of 2019, going by Sakurai's Byleth presentation that suggested he played some incomplete early build of the game to learn about the character and that Byleth was being made while FE: TH was still in development. Three Houses could have gone gold as soon as June of 2019, so maybe we're looking at Sakurai playing this early build as early as May of 2019. Maybe earlier! In fact, he could've been talking about 2018. That far back!

As has been mentioned countless times, our best hope is FP 2. It was never FP 1. And with a new Golden Sun trademark being registered (perhaps it will be a world wide name now, retiring or listed alongside the Japanese name, Ougen no Taiyo, in Japan?) in 2019, maybe Nintendo has Smash, Golden Sun, and cross promotion in mind. That is our hope right now, and these tidbits above is the fuel for that.

I imagine we'll learn about the first FP 2 fighter sometime this year. They'll have been in development at some point last year and will tell us what direction Nintendo is taking FP 2 DLC. Will it be a fanservice filled DLC with characters long requested by Smash fans, such as Waluigi, Geno, and that like? Or is cross promotion with upcoming games the DLC's primary function (new IP characters, upcoming Fire Emblem games, new Golden Sun promo, Kingdom Hearts coming to Switch, etc).

Banjo looks like a fan request being granted today, with no upcoming Banjo game coming to Switch, though Microsoft has since given Switch surprising support with Ori and Cuphead. Byleth is obviously promotion. There were a lot of P5 on Switch rumors that didn't pan out, so Joker's inclusion is a question. Hero had DQ 11. Terry's anyones guess, so in the end FP 2 may be more of FP 1. Maybe one... or two Smash fan requests. Some promotional characters, and perhaps a favorite from Sakurai or Nintendo as well. Time will tell I guess.

But I do wonder... who are the arguably two biggest characters, niche or otherwise, that Smash fans want right now with K. Rool, Ridley, and Banjo gone from speculation now? Are we (Isaac) up there? Geno's fans have been making there presence known for some time since FP 1's announcement (though they didn't have the kinda hard "de-confirm" we got). I guess time till tell.

Look alive and stay hopeful, fellow Adepts! :D

 

[Guynamednelson]

The fighters pass vol 2 will supposedly run up to the end of next year

Keep in mind that 12/31 is just a placeholder date. It isn't guaranteed that we'll have to wait for December 2021 for the pass to be complete.

Now all that said... I can't say I know why exactly Nintendo pushed for characters like Joker and Terry. Trying to convince Atlus and SNK to put P5 and KoF on Switch?

In Terry's case, SNK has a lot of Switch ports (Just not KoFXIV), and SNK Heroines was first announced in a Nintendo Direct. Perhaps as some sort of thank you?

 

[NessAtc.]

The idea is that Nintendo didn't really push them, they simply put them forward and Sakurai chose to do them. Which is why he picked P5 and Fatal Fury

 

[Kalaam]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Here is a little reward for all the good boys and girls.

 

[N3ON]

There is evidence literally everywhere. You do not need to look hard for it at all.

In fact, here's more than a few examples

Android 17* and Base Goku* from Dragon Ball FighterZ
Jubei*, Mai Natsume*, Kagura Mutsuki, Hibiki Kohaku, Yuuki Terumi*, Hazama, Tsubaki Yayoi, Kokonoe*, Makoto Nanaya*, and Valkenhayn* from Blazblue
Chaos, Mika, and Londrekia from Under Night
All Four Shadaloo Grand Masters
Kolin, Ed, Menat, Abigail, Zeku, and Falke from SFV (All six of these were NPCs)
Phoenix Wright and Doctor Strange appear in Arcade Mode endings in MvC3, and got promoted to playable in UMvC3
Thor and Arthur were once assist characters in MvC1, and got promoted in MvC3
Dan Hibiki and Joe Higashi appeared in CvS before being added proper in it's revision, CvS Pro
Croagunk was an assist in Pokken Tournament, and was added as playable in Pokken Tournament DX, it's revision.
Tatsuya* and Miyuki Shiba* in Dengeki Bunko Fighting Climax
There's far more examples than this, and this is also only limited to fighting games mind. There's even more than a few that were added in while maintaining NPC/Assist status, denoted with *

So ought we expect multiple physical instalments of Ultimate, as per other fighting games, or do we only care about what unrelated fighting games do when it validates what we want to happen? Ought we anticipate rampant porting? Characters from outside of video games to join? Original characters? Guest characters to (almost) never recur? That was a big one propagated on the basis of “well that’s how other fighters work”, and boy did it fall hard.

Why not argue that all the characters in Smash will receive alternate costumes via DLC? Almost every fighting game has that nowadays. Should we expect large swathes of the roster to be cut from title to title? That’s what happens in other fighters. I mean, how many of those series even have a role comparable to that of AT?

This is not evidence. All this is are examples that create precedent in other series. At most, this is evidence that it could happen. Which was never my contention.

It doesn’t matter what happens in other games, because outside of intervention by Nintendo, my argument is it boils down to Sakurai’s stance on the issue, and Sakurai doesn’t create any of those other games.

Were it up to Sakurai, it’d be questionable if we’d even get DLC, let alone Season Passes, let alone unrevealed characters in Season Passes. That’s Nintendo making calls closer to the industry standard. If they’ve no dog in the race when it comes to promotions, it’s entirely possible Sakurai’s beliefs are what carry though. And my argument is, as we don’t know those intentions for sure, the most we can do is speculate.

Invoking selective elements from other games is such a flawed tactic. Not only is management different, but it’s at the exclusion of a myriad of things Smash doesn’t embrace, because for everything Smash adopts from the genre, there will be some other factor divergent from the standard. Look at all the ones I rattled off the top of my head, and your logic justifies them happening just as much as a promotion. But obviously most of them aren’t coming to fruition.

The only evidence that matters is precedent within the series. Especially when it comes to Nintendo. If precedent is lacking, educated guesses are the most that can be made. You’ll not convince me that you know something you just objectively don’t, no matter how many series which aren’t the one in question you can list.

There isn't confirmation by Sakurai either that ATs are considered an obstacle, in any way. As we know, it's just what Nintendo wants, and that it has to be a video game character. Those are the official statements so far. If we're gonna question people's "evidence" (or lack of it) to believing that ATs are not really a problem, then the same can be said about those here wanting to believe so hard that AT is a limitation at all just because there is lack of "precedent", the lack of an example proving it otherwise, so far.

People were actually even thinking we wouldn't get a first party in the pass, it happened.
People thought many things weren't possible in smash so far, due to the lack of "precedent" to prove it even being possible, yet they happen. These are all fan made limitations purely based on the lack of precedents. They are STILL not official obstacles stated by devs in any way. So imo, neither side can nor should be going at each others' throats. The reality of the situation is simple: It's a mystery what can happen THIS TIME. If we keep getting focused on how things went in the past, we're gonna keep getting btfo-ed like we did already for many things that have happened. So why look dumb on any side of this situation? There should be no side, because there isn't anything solid enough solid to define what the case WILL BE in this game. No one in the fandom will ever know that, and that's a fact.

We should all just agree that there is no way to prove nor disprove whichever the case is for THIS TIME.
Lack of evidence, precedents, whatever… they are not really solid things to use for whichever argument for THIS TIME. This is why smash fan rules are waste of time imo, they purely rely on the past and they ignore entirely how many times they get proven wrong as we proceed to the future.

The most honest and true take to… well, take, on this situation, is that whichever the case really is, it's a mystery, and we have 2 years to "wait and see" by official confirmation (or deconfirmation) of whatever the hell the case is gonna be for THIS game, THIS time. Set the past aside, it has done nothing in favor to those who have done the same thing for stuff that finally ended happening already, so why continue to cling onto such fan rules? There is no point whatsoever. Again, let's agree that with THIS game, THIS time, we have no idea what will happen, anything is possible. Taking sides on this matter is just a pathetic waste of time to just feed egos ( I almost said "eggos" for some reason… I gotta stop rewatching stranger things, lol).

If there is any real precedent to anything in smash, is that people cling to how the past went and get btfo-ed to how the present goes.

I agree. My side is literally no side, it's that we can't make assumptions.

People probably think I'm saying it can't happen because they see me saying the word "precedent" a lot and get spooked, but it's that there's no precedent to dictate expectation, so our conclusions shouldn't be absolute. I'm not the one so reliant on precedent as to invoke it unrelated series to prove something in this one.

My point is that, as it stands right now, we objectively can't know.

 

[NessAtc.]

And my point is that just because we don't 100% know doesn't mean we can't analyze what literally every other dev on the market does to create a broader image. I've been doing this for a solid year now, and it's worked out 100% for me.

But hey, you want to completely and utterly ignore perfectly valuable evidence? Fine by me. I really don't care either way.

 

[Silo777]

My stance is pretty simple, I don’t think ATs are off the table or have ever been off the table. Like I said, there just hasn’t been a reason to make one into a fighter.

Look at the list of ATs for Smash Wii U and 3DS. There really aren’t any that are both 1: plausible fighters and 2: ever gave Nintendo much of a reason to make them into something more other than the screams from fans, which happens with just about everything. The same applies to Ultimate. That is, unless Golden Sun happens. If it does and I’m not mistaken, Isaac will be the very first AT that has a completely valid reason to make into a fighter within the same game. It’s at that point we’ll get to see what Nintendo’s views are on the subject.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

The revelation that Nintendo chose the characters for the second fighter pass somehow makes me both more optimistic and less optimistic for Isaacs chances.

In most cases I would think Nintendo being the one to choose would be a negative (since they seem more like they'd be detached from the wants of the Smash community, the chances of them being "out of touch" compared to Sakurai seems a lot higher) however in the case of a new Golden Sun game or remake being announced this year or next I could see that negative turning into a positive, since they might want to promote the new Golden Sun game.

There's also the fact that making Isaac an assist trophy might have been a Sakurai decision, so someone else calling the shots might be what we need. (who can really say for sure though....)

 

[Kalaam]

If (when) GS Remake is announced, it's our win.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think Isaac will have a pretty unique play style. Being the first earth element user in Smash, his attacks would pack a punch and have good range but they’ll have to be carefully placed.

Isaac has pretty decent speed in Golden Sun, being second fastest in GS1 and I think third fastest in TLA. He’ll probably have a good running speed, I’d say slightly faster than Link. His sword attacks, however many there are, will also be quite quick.

It’ll be awesome if his Down Special is like Donkey Kong’s but slower and on steroids.

Isaac might have decent speed in Golden Sun, but Ike and Byleth for example are just about the fastest units in their respective games. Ness is slow in EarthBound but right now he's getting faster by each Smash game. Robin also isn't slow in Awakening, and Lucina is definitely faster than Chrom in that game too.

I mean to say, you can expect anything in Smash. I kinda expect Isaac to be on the slower side, but indeed be very strong.

 

[clearandsweet]

I find the assist trophy stuff to be so dumb.

Who among you, after seeing current DLC offerings, thinks they would make a lighthouse/any GS stage without minor/party characters in the background?

Then, them making those models already, could they not just 1:1 replace Isaac's AT model with Garrett or Felix or Mathew? C'mon people.

Isaac might have decent speed in Golden Sun, but Ike and Byleth for example are just about the fastest units in their respective games. Ness is slow in EarthBound but right now he's getting faster by each Smash game. Robin also isn't slow in Awakening, and Lucina is definitely faster than Chrom in that game too.

I mean to say, you can expect anything in Smash. I kinda expect Isaac to be on the slower side, but indeed be very strong.

Things you cannot do:

• Make Ragnarok, Gaia, Spire, ect, itty bitty (drastically smaller than they appear in GS)
• Make these do itty bitty damage (8% Ragnarok direct hit or something)
• Not have these psynergy

Things you easily can do:

• Change recovery frames/speed/lag

Yeah I agree with you guys. If your attacks have to have good range and power, the easiest balancing is to not make them fast.

But who knows, there could be other various quicker moves or a more creative djinn gimmick or something else that changes things around.

 

[Metocles]

It is interesting that the second fighter pass will have even more characters than the first. Though I suppose Piranha Plant is sort of a fighter pass 1+ sort of thing. When I learned that it would be six more, I instantly thought, both the first and second fighter passes combined contains more characters than other fighting games have in total.

At this point, it's really just waiting to see what kind of characters they decided to work on for these; though I suspect it's going to be a mixture of expected vs. surprise picks like the first. That's how these have just seemed to go for both this game and Sm4sh. As for Isaac at this point, it's really tough to say anymore; this entire smash game cycle has been a roller coaster as always. This time, I'll hope but not expect anything to happen.

Six feels like a lot, but it feels like you could also just name six characters that could be chosen all the same. Only time will tell what fate has in store for Isaac and GS.

 

[Nazyrus]

It is interesting that the second fighter pass will have even more characters than the first. Though I suppose Piranha Plant is sort of a fighter pass 1+ sort of thing. When I learned that it would be six more, I instantly thought, both the first and second fighter passes combined contains more characters than other fighting games have in total.

At this point, it's really just waiting to see what kind of characters they decided to work on for these; though I suspect it's going to be a mixture of expected vs. surprise picks like the first. That's how these have just seemed to go for both this game and Sm4sh. As for Isaac at this point, it's really tough to say anymore; this entire smash game cycle has been a roller coaster as always. This time, I'll hope but not expect anything to happen.

Six feels like a lot, but it feels like you could also just name six characters that could be chosen all the same. Only time will tell what fate has in store for Isaac and GS.

Yeah if Sakurai keeps his interest in bringing new experiences, that's 6 new experiences I gotta wonder about from his perspective. I'm just genuinely curious, nothing else really. It's just fun to wait and see what he gives us, all I hope is for them to be fun and hype to see in HD glory and animated. I'm particularly in love with the smash renders we're getting, specially when they are for old characters that either no longer look good these days or just never had a 3D render before.