Official Summer of Smash: Week #4 - CEO, Karisuma 8, Xanadu

[Das Koopa]

Mains Mario, plays Mario for most of the tournament, loses vs Diddy. Switches to Cloud, wins three games in a row. What does that say about Cloud?

not much since Dabuz more or less did the same with Olimar

Cloud's clearly super good but it was an effective character counterpick, not ANTi holding himself back

 

[Kofu]

Mains Mario, plays Mario for most of the tournament, loses vs Diddy. Switches to Cloud, wins three games in a row. What does that say about Cloud?

That Cloud does better against Diddy than Mario?

 

[Nu~]

Can't wait for the incoming Cloud roast in CCI lol

 

[SaltyKracka]

Pocket Clouds.

 

[-Tornado-]

Now that the tournament is over - What just happened? This was the strangest tourney I've ever seen.
(Must have been that Florida magic)

 

[TDK]

I'm going to wake up tomorrow and find out that this is all just a dream, aren't I?

 

[Wintermelon43]

I'm going to wake up tomorrow and find out that this is all just a dream, aren't I?

Well, it is the dream team that won, so that's a good possibility.

 

[Djent]

Everyone is going to talk about when we should be talking about .

Mario is top 5. There is no matchup in this game that he cannot win, and he only loses a few. Furthermore, the few matchups he loses are still clearly winnable. You think he can't beat Rosalina? See Ally vs. Rayquaza and now ANTi vs. Dabuz. You think he loses to Diddy? Zinoto got double-eliminated by Mario at Rebirth last weekend. You think he loses to Cloud? Ally made short work of Mew2King, and ANTi's Cape strats in doubles make it look like he would as well. Who else does that leave? Sonic? Maybe ZSS?

This character is clearly nuts and has the results at all levels to prove it.

 

[paperchao]

I was surprised at the diversity in top 16, that's like 21 characters that saw the spot light! (I know that it isn't really 21 due to them falling flat on their faces but hey its something lol)

 

[zzmorg82]

The year of pocket clouds.

Spoiler

 

[Wintermelon43]

I just got back from a quick time-hop to 2015, to tell everyone that Plank hosted a new Pound after paying off all the back-winnings, and it not only didn't have Zero, Nairo, or Dabuz in top 8 but was won by Abadango's Mewtwo--even though everyone thought a Cloud or Bayonetta was going to win.
I was told this was the least believable thing since Donald Trump's candidacy.

Now just tell them about CEO as well, and you might be able to bypass Donald Trump's candidacy.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

"Omg, I can't wait to see all the babies whining about Cloud tomorrow"

Well, considering the fact that the most oft cited excuse for Cloud not being broken was just destroyed for everyone on live stream, you bet your ass you can see me "crying" in CCI tomorrow morning. Prepare for an essay, y'all

 

[Y2Kay]

This tourney has brought up a lot of points about Mewtwo I'm gonna be discussing. Prepare yourselves for tomorrow, CCI.



(congrats to Anti )

 

[TTTTTsd]

"Omg, I can't wait to see all the babies whining about Cloud tomorrow"

Well, considering the fact that the most oft cited excuse for Cloud not being broken was just destroyed for everyone on live stream, you bet your *** you can see me "crying" in CCI tomorrow morning. Prepare for an essay, y'all

This rhetoric is just as bad as the **** you're condemning but the high horse is always more fun to gawk at, so I'll appreciate this post for that at least. Always a laugh, CCI. Always.

I'll enjoy the essay regardless of its actual quality, don't worry.

On the note of other interesting things about the tournament, it's impressive to see Mario overcoming Rosalina Djent (I was pretty sure Anti was RIP but my boy Mario comin through the clutch), particularly the best Rosalina in the world! Imma have to take notes from Anti, that was clutch af. Nobody's going to talk about it because they're going to view it in the atypical Grand Finals lens because a particular character won, but it was definitely impressive. I'm also really impressed with Abadango proving that the Sheik matchup is defo really good for Mewtwo, bless his heart. Aba's Mewtwo is so scary, but Diddy looks a little difficult. I can't really tell though cause Zinoto was playing out of his damn mind.

 

[BSP]

Everyone is going to talk about when we should be talking about .

Mario is top 5. There is no matchup in this game that he cannot win, and he only loses a few. Furthermore, the few matchups he loses are still clearly winnable. You think he can't beat Rosalina? See Ally vs. Rayquaza and now ANTi vs. Dabuz. You think he loses to Diddy? Zinoto got double-eliminated by Mario at Rebirth last weekend. You think he loses to Cloud? Ally made short work of Mew2King, and ANTi's Cape strats in doubles make it look like he would as well. Who else does that leave? Sonic? Maybe ZSS?

This character is clearly nuts and has the results at all levels to prove it.

"Nuts" may a bit strong. Do you think he needs nerfs? Mario is good, but you said it yourself that he loses a few MUs. Where exactly he falls in placement is up for debate, but I think he's a good example of a strong competitor in this game with clear, yet non-crippling weaknesses.

 

[Nu~]

Welp...
While the cloud debate tommorow is gonna be fun and all...
I'm gonna cut into that time to debate the future of pacman lol.


Starting with how Abadango's rusty display is unfortunately gonna keep the faulty "low tier" stigma stagnant for a while...but it is impressive that he did so well even with a rusty pacman. A testament to how hard the matchup is for diddy.


Man I can't wait until Tea can finally go to a national :,(

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

This tourney has brought up a lot of points about Mewtwo I'm gonna be discussing. Prepare yourselves for tomorrow, CCI.

I have a question before you go to bed. Is there any reason why Abadango wouldn't have banned FD during his matches against Mr. R or Zinoto? It seemed like everytime they wanted to win game 2, it would be an immediate FD pick to body M2. At least on every other stage, Abadango had more of a fighting chance.

 

[Y2Kay]

I have a question before you go to bed. Is there any reason why Abadango wouldn't have banned FD during his matches against Mr. R or Zinoto? It seemed like everytime they wanted to win game 2, it would be an immediate FD pick to body M2. At least on every other stage, Abadango had more of a fighting chance.

The only stage I can think of that is worse than FD for M2 is Duck Hunt. FD really isn't that bad though.

 

[DJBor]

Everyone is going to talk about when we should be talking about .

Mario is top 5. There is no matchup in this game that he cannot win, and he only loses a few. Furthermore, the few matchups he loses are still clearly winnable. You think he can't beat Rosalina? See Ally vs. Rayquaza and now ANTi vs. Dabuz. You think he loses to Diddy? Zinoto got double-eliminated by Mario at Rebirth last weekend. You think he loses to Cloud? Ally made short work of Mew2King, and ANTi's Cape strats in doubles make it look like he would as well. Who else does that leave? Sonic? Maybe ZSS?

This character is clearly nuts and has the results at all levels to prove it.

Thank god someone here agrees with me. It's seriously about time people wake up and realize that Mario is Top 5, if not #2 (to Cloud, of course, 20FF is finally here after all) Diddy may have the MASSIVE player base (ten solo diddy mains in top 64 at CEO!), but Mario has those few things that simply give him an edge.

What I get out of this tournament most is the unprecedented amount of upsets. I bet barely anybody predicted ANTi and Zinoto in grand finals. Or that Trela would get 13th in his pool. Or that Mew2King would leave Smash 4 singles entirely to focus on his impressive 2nd place Melee run. Or that... never mind, you get the point. Or that ZeRo lost to a Palutena! Finally!

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

The only stage I can think of that is worse than FD for M2 is Duck Hunt. FD really isn't that bad though.

Can you elaborate. I don't think I've ever seen an M2 go to DH so I wouldn't know why that is worse.

 

[Y2Kay]

Duck Hunt's lack of a Z Axis ruins his air dodge.

(well not really. It IS noticeably worse though)

 

[Mr. Johan]

Duck Hunt has no Z axis, so it makes Mewtwo's hurtbox even larger and his airdodge more vulnerable.

Mewtwo also can't pressure the tree platforms and the bush as well as he can on BF and DL's platforms due to how his double jump works.

 

[Djent]

BSP This game's "power level" has been toned down a lot, and it's now clear that a lot of characters can compete when they previously couldn't. I don't think anyone "needs nerfs" at this point. That being said, if there were such a thing as "QoL debuffs" I think Mario would be 2nd in line after Cloud. It's not terribly healthy when the best characters are also among the easiest to play.

DJBor I think 2nd might be going too far. I have as #1 with some unknown order of for #s 2-5.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

If ZeRo vs Prince Ramen isn't proof of "Play who you want, ignore the tiers" I don't know what it is.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Anti is a sly devil. Decided to sandbag with Mario in GFs and win with pocket Cloud so everyone would forget Mario basically won yet another super major. Kappa

No but seriously, how much more proof do you guys need that Mario is easily top 5-8 in the game? Even his worst matchups are not that bad and he does really well versus most top tiers.

And people underestimate his disadvantage state.

His recovery is extremely good, not because it goes far (a common misconception that a recovery that doesn't do this can't be good) but because of how hard it is to interrupt and how little he needs to use it anyway given his awesome aerial drift. There's a reason you rarely ever see top Marios getting edeguarded/gimped compared to every other top tier excluding Sheik and ZSS.

Likewise his great drifting capabilities, floatiness and nair means in a lot of situations where other characters would be eating big true combos, Mario gets away for free.

Likewise people underestimate his raw kill power.

A lot think he doesn't have early kill confirms so he must struggle at killing. But his Smash attacks are probably the best in the game with very high knockback, fast startup (for how strong they are), great hitboxes and low cooldown making them difficult to punish if at all. Most of the time even at top level the only thing he eats if one gets blocked is a dash attack/dash grab which usually doesn't lead to a kill. You can see players like Anti/Ally basically spamming them and getting away with it for this reason.

Finally his insane damage output needs to be discussed.

After all the nerfs it's actually pretty rare for a character to get 30+ percent off of true grab combos the way Mario still can. Heck even his aerials by themselves string into each other so well. So while other top tiers have better neutrals (and even then not by much at this point) he really doesn't need to win neutral much to win a match because his advantage state is so strong.

 

[Dinoman96]

If ZeRo vs Prince Ramen isn't proof of "Play who you want, ignore the tiers" I don't know what it is.

Well, unfortunately, afterwards Ramen got bonked by a Sheik, so..

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Everyone is going to talk about when we should be talking about .

Mario is top 5. There is no matchup in this game that he cannot win, and he only loses a few. Furthermore, the few matchups he loses are still clearly winnable. You think he can't beat Rosalina? See Ally vs. Rayquaza and now ANTi vs. Dabuz. You think he loses to Diddy? Zinoto got double-eliminated by Mario at Rebirth last weekend. You think he loses to Cloud? Ally made short work of Mew2King, and ANTi's Cape strats in doubles make it look like he would as well. Who else does that leave? Sonic? Maybe ZSS?

This character is clearly nuts and has the results at all levels to prove it.

Corrin is another character on the list that edges out Mario. Basically take Ike and remove most of the recovery weakness + Dragon Lunge is a pain for Mario to deal with. Marth is a maybe as well, but we haven't seen it played out much yet.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Well, unfortunately, afterwards Ramen got bonked by a Sheik, so..

So? I am pretty sure Ramen didn't care, after all he defeated ZeRo's freaking Diddy Kong with a character that is considered bottom tier.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Corrin is another character on the list that edges out Mario. Basically take Ike and remove most of the recovery weakness + Dragon Lunge is a pain for Mario to deal with. Marth is a maybe as well, but we haven't seen it played out much yet.

People say Marth beats Mario but Smash 4 Marth is no Brawl Marth. His zoning capabilities are pretty limited considering one fair in a short hop, nair doesn't autocancel, worse range in general etc.

Anti faced False (Marth) earlier in the bracket and made the matchup look free for Mario, had no trouble getting in at all. Granted Anti is obviously a better player too but still. It seems like if the Mario is good at reads, he won't have much trouble.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Corrin is another character on the list that edges out Mario. Basically take Ike and remove most of the recovery weakness + Dragon Lunge is a pain for Mario to deal with. Marth is a maybe as well, but we haven't seen it played out much yet.

Why do people believe Marth's disjoint is all it takes to defeat Mario? Ally has clearly shown that's not the case, GOML 2016 shows this, Leo vs Ally, 3-1.

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm actually a little sad that CEO's over.

There were so many upsets, so many memorable moments. Some laughs were had, some tears were shed, and reading through this thread was always a treat.

So long CEO2016, you were easily my favorite Smash tournament in recent memory.

 

[Deleted member]

If ZeRo vs Prince Ramen isn't proof of "Play who you want, ignore the tiers" I don't know what it is.

Matchup inexperience could play a significant role. Even if we remove matchup inexperience from the equation, it more likely means that Palutena may not be low/bottom tier. Not necessarily that tiers are negligible.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Matchup inexperience could play a significant role. Even if we remove matchup inexperience from the equation, it more likely means that Palutena may not be low/bottom tier. Not necessarily that tiers are negligible.

I know. Just shows if you put effort into the character you like, rather than playing them for tiers, you'll get results, not on a Diddy/Sheik scale unless said character has the same kit or at least half of what they have.

 

[juddy96]

Push More Buttons, 180 entrants - Minneapolis, Minnesota

1) Ned
2) Shinjoebi
3) NiTe
4) Bushi
5) Naoto
5) PowPow
7) GanonTheBeast
7) Seth
9) Triple R
9) NameLess ??
9) Moti
9) MJG
13) Sinnyboo242
13) yeti
13) Sethlon
13) Jibca ?

*I didn't watch this tournament, characters are based off previous VODs and PR's*

https://smash.gg/tournament/push-more-buttons/brackets

 

[Y2Kay]

Glad to see Shinjoebi on the come up!

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Regarding the end of Zero's reign.

A lot assume it is because these players got better when Zero was on break. While that might be a part of it, let's not forget Sheik got nerfed HARD is patch 1.1.5 which is around the time he took his break. And before it he definitely mainly relied on Sheik to win (he'd only use Diddy for a few matchups).

At any rate I wouldn't be surprised if Cloud and Mario nerfs were incoming. Normally I wouldn't expect Nintendo to care about what's going on in competitive play but historically they've nerfed characters that were strong in it (I can't imagine Sheik or ZSS being good at a casual level for instance).

 

[Dinoman96]

That's assuming that Sakurai/Nintendo are even going to bother making another patch for this game. I mean, the last patch all they did was nerf Bayo and that was it.

 

[Jexulus]

I know. Just shows if you put effort into the character you like, rather than playing them for tiers, you'll get results, not on a Diddy/Sheik scale unless said character has the same kit or at least half of what they have.

I disagree. I don't know how many Palutenas ZeRo has fought over the game's lifespan, but the fact is that ZeRo has played and won many, many games during his tenure as the champ. He's definitely played against characters that he sees way less than the usual suspects. Did match-up inexperience cost him then? Obviously not.

In my opinion, the fact that ZeRo lost to a Palutena isn't a result of match up experience, but Ramen's skill as a player. This is further proven by Zero's run through loser's bracket. People forget that matches happen in tournaments for top players besides just the top 8 that everybody sees streamed on Twitch.

It's the same reason why I roll my eyes when I see people say that Mew2King lost to Mew^2 a few months ago because he "wasn't at 100%". Then how'd he get all the way to Winner's Semis?
EDIT: Quoted the wrong post. Dangit.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

I disagree. I don't know how many Palutenas ZeRo has fought over the game's lifespan, but the fact is that ZeRo has played and won many, many games during his tenure as the champ. He's definitely played against characters that he sees way less than the usual suspects. Did match-up inexperience cost him then? Obviously not.

In my opinion, the fact that ZeRo lost to a Palutena isn't a result of match up experience, but Ramen's skill as a player. This is further proven by Zero's run through loser's bracket. People forget that matches happen in tournaments for top players besides just the top 8 that everybody sees streamed on Twitch.

It's the same reason why I roll my eyes when I see people say that Mew2King lost to Mew^2 a few months ago because he "wasn't at 100%". Then how'd he get all the way to Winner's Semis?
EDIT: Quoted the wrong post. Dangit.

People tend to say "X wasn't at a 100%, that's why he/she lost" rather than acknowledging that said player beat fair and square. Random question: Why players I play against (just started to attend tourneys over here where I live) tell me to quit Lucina and Roy and just stick to Marth? I don't know how to play Marth, no it isn't sarcasm, I don't play Lucina with the principle of spacing, I play her as a mix of spacing and rushdown, akin to a mix of Marth and Roy, I also main the later.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

I disagree. I don't know how many Palutenas ZeRo has fought over the game's lifespan, but the fact is that ZeRo has played and won many, many games during his tenure as the champ. He's definitely played against characters that he sees way less than the usual suspects. Did match-up inexperience cost him then? Obviously not.

In my opinion, the fact that ZeRo lost to a Palutena isn't a result of match up experience, but Ramen's skill as a player. This is further proven by Zero's run through loser's bracket. People forget that matches happen in tournaments for top players besides just the top 8 that everybody sees streamed on Twitch.

It's the same reason why I roll my eyes when I see people say that Mew2King lost to Mew^2 a few months ago because he "wasn't at 100%". Then how'd he get all the way to Winner's Semis?
EDIT: Quoted the wrong post. Dangit.

This argument would have more merit if Prince Ramin had at least made top 16.

AFAIK he didn't even make top 32 after beating Zero.

This suggest it had more to do with MU inexperience (among other Smash 4 factors like 2 stock format and rage) than Ramen being on Zero's level overall. Not suggesting he's bad of course, obviously he's a great player but far from a world class one.

Consistency is what matters. You don't become a top player because you beat one and then proceeded to get destroyed by everyone after that. Established top players are what they are because they've proved over a long period of time they are good enough to make top 8s at the most stacked of events.