Suicide - Morally permissible?

[1048576]

Until we find a cure for sadness that actually works, the best way to increase the sum utility of society is to let the people with negative utility kill themselves. This whole notion that somehow you or I know whats best for someone more than that person himself does takes away his autonomy. People aren't pets.

"We won't let him kill himself because he's not in his right state of mind because he wants to kill himself" Yeah and 7+2 = 10 because 10-2=7. Maybe suicide is good for some people. It makes their level of happiness go from negative to 0.

And even if someone only wants to die because they're stupid, I believe autonomy is important. You know freedom and whatnot. As long as you are only hurting yourself, you should be allowed to do whatever you want (like drinking and smoking.)

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Until we find a cure for sadness that actually works, the best way to increase the sum utility of society is to let the people with negative utility kill themselves.

Excuse me but your argument sounds vaguely utilitarian.

(a) A negative utilitarian approach on such an issue assumes that it is more efficient to get rid of possible harm to a given population, rather than to consider maximizing the potential of those who already have the capability to function at a certain level in order to achieve the greatest amount of good for that given population.

(b) In addition, your point of view appears to approach society through a rather reductionist perspective in that you feel that society is simply the aggregate sum of the supposed worth of single individuals. This type of approach opposes several political principles advocated by Rosseau's social contract that explains that individuals give up several individual rights such as having to pay taxes to the government in order to gain greater rights such as national security, a post-office system, and public transportation via roads and other methods of travel. Individuals who may be deemed to be insufficient to look after their own needs are not necessarily insufficient in fulfilling the needs of others within a given community.

(c) Finally the most important thing I feel lacking in your statement is the lack of a value criterion in order to back up your premise that a utility-based society is the ideal standard that we should aspire to seek. What exactly determines "utility"? Would it be happiness? Work-efficiency? Personal profit? How can you measure such quantities without being subjective? It's one thing to propose over-generalized theoretics. It's another to actually implement such a system into our current society which is where the current trend of the conversation was heading before you bumped it with your own personalized convictions.

This whole notion that somehow you or I know whats best for someone more than that person himself does takes away his autonomy. People aren't pets.

Excuse me. Then what are humans? If you're going to judge humans by their utility, then they definitely aren't pets. The analogy makes them more akin to a plow, a hoe, and a rake.

"We won't let him kill himself because he's not in his right state of mind because he wants to kill himself" Yeah and 7+2 = 10 because 10-2=7. Maybe suicide is good for some people. It makes their level of happiness go from negative to 0.

I'm glad that you know that 7 + 2 is not equivalent to 10. Can you also do Integration by Parts, Taylor Series, and if that is too daunting... Rieman Sums? I don't know if a universal "happiness" scale exists (refer to point (c)) that is objective to personal standards. But I do know that if someone is going to settle on 0, then they certainly have given up on ever becoming a positive integer.

And even if someone only wants to die because they're stupid, I believe autonomy is important. You know freedom and whatnot. As long as you are only hurting yourself, you should be allowed to do whatever you want (like drinking and smoking.)

Again this seems to ignore (b) a cohesive approach to social systems and (c) a firm standard or scale for evaluating "utility." When a man drinks / smokes he is certainly not enhancing his capacity as a member of society by having his health remain at best neutral. When he jeopardizes his own health, he jeopardizes his ability to live life and the obligations he fulfills as: father, worker, and husband.

 

[1048576]

(a) And...? You can do both. Make sad people less sad and make happy people more happy. And yes, I'm a utilitarian.

b.) Are you suggesting that because some miserable dude might be making other people happier, we should force him to stay alive? I can roll with that. I guess it depends on the number of dependents a person has, and how dependent they are.

c.) You really can't measure most "not absurd" moral guidelines. But this one seems pretty clear-cut. If some lonely guy would have a better life by having no life, why should someone stop him. That reduces the utility of the guy in question as well as the intervener, presumably.

Excuse me. Then what are humans? If you're going to judge humans by their utility, then they definitely aren't pets. The analogy makes them more akin to a plow, a hoe, and a rake.

I don't think any part of this is true. I'm not judging humans by their utility, and even if I was, I'm not simplifying human interaction to a slave-master relationship. I'm not even sure what you're getting at here.

Of course I can do calculus...
My experience leads me to believe that a suicidal person is more qualified to identify if they will ever be happy than I am. I don't know anyone as well as they know themselves, and it's condescending for anyone to think otherwise.

If you would rather smoke weed and live in a cardboard box than work hard and have a decent standard of living, who am I to judge? Some people are genuinely happier with the former. It's okay to not produce as long as you don't consume either.

And how selfish is the hypothetical wife that she genuinely wouldn't feel happy that her husband is finally out of his misery? Kids are a whole new variable, and I'd agree for now that suicide is bad if you have a kid to raise, since being in a foster home is a pretty big drain on utility. Of course, if you're miserable enough (like every day feels like an acid bath) go ahead and kill yourself anyway.

 

[SuperBowser]

Until we find a cure for sadness that actually works, the best way to increase the sum utility of society is to let the people with negative utility kill themselves. This whole notion that somehow you or I know whats best for someone more than that person himself does takes away his autonomy. People aren't pets.

"We won't let him kill himself because he's not in his right state of mind because he wants to kill himself" Yeah and 7+2 = 10 because 10-2=7. Maybe suicide is good for some people. It makes their level of happiness go from negative to 0.

And even if someone only wants to die because they're stupid, I believe autonomy is important. You know freedom and whatnot. As long as you are only hurting yourself, you should be allowed to do whatever you want (like drinking and smoking.)

(You know lots of people can be cured from depression, right?)

We won't let him kill himself because he's not in his right state of mind because he is mentally ill. Autonomy is lost because capacity is lost; otherwise the law will not stop you. I understand suicide is still technically illegal, but this facet of the law is rarely acted upon (if at all). As such, I don't think comparisons to a smoker stands.

The current system won't stop healthy people or determined ill people. If you really want to kill yourself, you will. The Mental Health Act is not liberally applied to suicidal persons. It is usually in the acute setting, it is for people that appear mentally ill, it is for treatable conditions and it is when no other option is appropriate.

If you do not meet these criteria, there are no worries. Even if you are hospitalized, you will be free in 48 hours to kill yourself because no one will use the law to stop you.



I think the point to (c) is one can argue through utilitarianism that the greater good is to keep (multiple) people around the suicidal man happy. You assert it is a greater good to allow a suicidal person's death. We are at a roadblock.

 

[1048576]

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/30/u...s-but-lose-miracle-drug-label.html?sec=health

55%-65% of depressed people aren't cured.

Well, yeah, he's mentally ill if you define mentally ill as wanting to kill yourself. That's exactly what I was getting it. (He's ill, so he's suicidal and he's suicidal, so he's ill.) Suicidal desires are not irrational. It just means the world has given you more problems than you are able to cope with.

Or once you try it once they claim you're mentally ill or whatever and lock you up indefinitely. It really is something you have to get right the first time. Also, if you screw up, you might be too physically impaired to try again.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Well, yeah, he's mentally ill if you define mentally ill as wanting to kill yourself. That's exactly what I was getting it. (He's ill, so he's suicidal and he's suicidal, so he's ill.) Suicidal desires are not irrational. It just means the world has given you more problems than you are able to cope with.

Why are suicides irrational? What if the person has a genuine problem of no hope at all? Is it not rational then? If still irrational why? Just throwing a few things out there.

Or once you try it once they claim you're mentally ill or whatever and lock you up indefinitely. It really is something you have to get right the first time. Also, if you screw up, you might be too physically impaired to try again.

Explain please?

 

[vVv Rapture]

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/30/u...s-but-lose-miracle-drug-label.html?sec=health

55%-65% of depressed people aren't cured.

Well, yeah, he's mentally ill if you define mentally ill as wanting to kill yourself. That's exactly what I was getting it. (He's ill, so he's suicidal and he's suicidal, so he's ill.) Suicidal desires are not irrational. It just means the world has given you more problems than you are able to cope with.

Or once you try it once they claim you're mentally ill or whatever and lock you up indefinitely. It really is something you have to get right the first time. Also, if you screw up, you might be too physically impaired to try again.

Is being suicidal a mental illness, though? Someone could easily think suicidal thoughts, but still be mentally stable. As you said, suicidal desires are not irrational, so it would be safe to assume that a rational mind has them?

With that said, suicide really tends to get out of hand when the idea is from that of an irrational mind. Someone contemplating suicide while being rational can easily persuade themselves out of doing it or realize that it's not the best option. This may not always be the case with irrational people thinking suicidal thoughts.

Because of that, I do not believe that killing oneself is properly under the jurisdiction of an ill mind. Being irrational or ill or both doesn't necessarily put you in the right position to decide whether or not to live.

 

[1048576]

I'm saying suicidal thoughts are NOT a mental illness, for any useful definition of the term.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Mental Illness: Any of the various forms of psychosis or severe neurosis.

Neurosis: Also called psychoneurosis. a functional disorder in which feelings of anxiety, obsessional thoughts, compulsive acts, and physical complaints without objective evidence of disease, in various degrees and patterns, dominate the personality.

Suicidal thoughts could be a symptom of mental illness, though.

 

[1048576]

So can washing your hands, or anything else if you do it a lot for no reason.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

So can washing your hands, or anything else if you do it a lot for no reason.

It is an EXTREME (and I mean extreme) rarity when someone does something for no reason, now does this have to be a rational reason? No, but even a serial killer who kills you just because he/she thinks you are in a galactic conspiracy with overlord Xenu when you walked by him/her even though you never meant the person and you have no clue who he/she is or even realized the person was there. Point is that insanity does have reason behind it, it (insanity) just functions on a level that is not in the real world (or real logic for that matter.)

 

[1048576]

Fine, anything can be considered mental illness under Rapture's definition if you do it a lot or for no reason that holds up to mild logical scrutiny. (No reasonable reason)

 

[vVv Rapture]

Fine, anything can be considered mental illness under Rapture's definition if you do it a lot or for no reason that holds up to mild logical scrutiny. (No reasonable reason)

Since when was it that being obsessive or compulsive means that you do things for no reason? That's not even remotely close to what I was talking about.

 

[1048576]

obsessive: you do it a lot
compulsive: you do it for no reasonable reason

What did you mean by those terms?

 

[vVv Rapture]

obsessive: you do it a lot
compulsive: you do it for no reasonable reason

What did you mean by those terms?

I really wish that, especially on these boards, you actually took the time to learn what things mean.

Compulsive: (source)

–adjective
1.
compelling; compulsory.
2.
Psychology .
a. pertaining to, characterized by, or involving compulsion: a compulsive desire to cry.
b. governed by an obsessive need to conform, be scrupulous, etc., coupled with an inability to express positive emotions.

–noun
3.
Psychology.
a. a person whose behavior is governed by a compulsion.

Which leads me to the definition of a compulsion (source):


–noun
1. the act of compelling; constraint; coercion.
2. the state or condition of being compelled.
3. Psychology . a strong, usually irresistible impulse to perform an act, esp. one that is irrational or contrary to one's will.

Or in the medical field:

- an irresistible persistent impulse to perform an act (as excessive hand washing)

You said that being compulsive is like doing something for no reason. That is clearly not the truth. Even with your example, washing your hands excessively does not mean you are doing it for no reason, but if you do this a lot, it could be a compulsion.

So, no, compulsive does not mean that you do it for no reason. Compulsive means...well, I just explained it.

 

[1048576]

You're treating obsessive and compulsive like synonyms. I was basically using 3. Psychology. Which one are you using?

But fine, whatever, I don't care how you define things as long as you're consistent.

How about this: is leaping out of a burning building compulsive, according to your definition (assuming the leaping gives you a better chance to survive than the burning)?

 

[vVv Rapture]

You're treating obsessive and compulsive like synonyms. I was basically using 3. Psychology. Which one are you using?

But fine, whatever, I don't care how you define things as long as you're consistent.

How about this: is leaping out of a burning building compulsive, according to your definition (assuming the leaping gives you a better chance to survive than the burning)?

I'm not treating obsessive and compulsive as synonyms. I didn't even mention obsession in my last post. I was defining "compulsive" and "compulsion", unrelated to obsession. I have no idea what you are talking about.

And it doesn't matter which one I'm using. My point is that none of those definitions say that being compulsive is doing things with no reason, which is not only false, but what you said.

I don't know what that scenario has anything to do with topic at hand (we've already sort of got off-topic, my apologies), but that scenario doesn't make sense. Being compulsive has nothing to do with that. Leaping out could be a compulsion, but considering it's the better option, the person could still be leaping out rationally knowing this...and someone that is not compulsive would do the same.

Back on topic. The whole point of this, as I said earlier, is that suicide could be a symptom of mental illness, as it could fit with the description of neurosis.

 

[1048576]

That description of neurosis means EVERYTHING could be a symptom of mental illness.

Can you name something which is definitively compulsive? All this maybe this and maybe that stuff makes it seem like no words have any meaning at all.

Look at the third definition of compulsion. Irrational, means without rationality, in other words, for no reasonable reason.

Doing something and having an impulse to act aren't too different, but you're right that I should have said that wanting to wash your hands a lot for no reason is obsessive and compulsive, not actually doing it.

You said in the medical field that excessive handwashing is compulsive. It seems to me like that would be obsessive.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

I wish to try to direct this thread back to the topic of suicide, My (Very bias) opinion is that it truly depends on the situation and there for must be taken in by a case by case opinion. I could elaborate more but I am in a rush at this moment, sorry. Will, expand upon later.

 

[vVv Rapture]

That description of neurosis means EVERYTHING could be a symptom of mental illness.

Can you name something which is definitively compulsive? All this maybe this and maybe that stuff makes it seem like no words have any meaning at all.

Look at the third definition of compulsion. Irrational, means without rationality, in other words, for no reasonable reason.

Doing something and having an impulse to act aren't too different, but you're right that I should have said that wanting to wash your hands a lot for no reason is obsessive and compulsive, not actually doing it.

You said in the medical field that excessive handwashing is compulsive. It seems to me like that would be obsessive.

No reasonable reason =/= no reason. You said for no reason. An unreasonable reason is still a reason, albeit unreasonable. But that doesn't mean that there isn't one at all.

Washing your hands obsessively would be not only doing it a lot, but also thinking about it a lot, being extremely concerned about it, etc. Not just the action.

Compulsive may not always be of your own will. Sort of like compulsive shopping. You don't want to buy some expensive things, but you end up doing it anyways because its a compulsion.

Anything can be a compulsion. But, none of them are nearly as detrimental as suicide. Same with an obsession of suicide.

More importantly, if someone is mentally ill, it becomes a problem when attempting suicide becomes a compulsion. That's where it becomes an issue.

 

[1048576]

No reasonable reason =/= no reason. You said for no reason. An unreasonable reason is still a reason, albeit unreasonable. But that doesn't mean that there isn't one at all.

Oh dear lord, more semantics BS. Look we both know what I'm saying. I don't want to write a novel. You don't want to read a novel, so can we please exchange ideas instead of this garbage

Washing your hands obsessively would be not only doing it a lot, but also thinking about it a lot, being extremely concerned about it, etc. Not just the action.

Compulsive may not always be of your own will. Sort of like compulsive shopping. You don't want to buy some expensive things, but you end up doing it anyways because its a compulsion.

Do you ever actually make any points, or do you just move on to more ambiguous terms when your current reservior is used up? Please tell me how you define a person's will. In my world, if I go shopping, it's because I wanted to, rational or not.

Anything can be a compulsion. But, none of them are nearly as detrimental as suicide. Same with an obsession of suicide.

Words that mean everything mean nothing.

More importantly, if someone is mentally ill, it becomes a problem when attempting suicide becomes a compulsion. That's where it becomes an issue.

Why are you more qualified to tell me what reasons for committing my own suicide makes sense more than I am? Are you talking about a situation in which someone is legit crazy and doesn't understand that dying makes you dead?

10char .

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Alright, my opinion on suicide. First society should do its best to discourage it and do its best to make suicide look immoral. Now I do not believe that is immoral to kill your self but only under certain conditions. Not if you where a productive (or has the ability to become a productive member) of society or some one who is really emotional should almost never kill them selfs. Teens especially should not comment suicide as there is much of there life still unused, it would effect us as a whole indirectly or directly with such a waste of a human life. Depressed people and mentally ill should not under normal circumstance kill them selfs (there are exceptions however.) However I truly must take my opinions on suicide on a case by case bases. (RE: most depressing job in the world.)

 

[vVv Rapture]

Oh dear lord, more semantics BS. Look we both know what I'm saying. I don't want to write a novel. You don't want to read a novel, so can we please exchange ideas instead of this garbage.

Why is it that you can say it, but I can't point it out? Odd.

Do you ever actually make any points, or do you just move on to more ambiguous terms when your current reservior is used up? Please tell me how you define a person's will. In my world, if I go shopping, it's because I wanted to, rational or not.

What? That point was on obsession and compulsion, both of which were terms I was using already. I really hoped that would have been a better insult. I would call it ad hominem, but that would just be moving on to more ambiguous terms, now would it?

Someone's will? As in...what they want to do. Intentionally. Sort of obvious. I really don't hope I have to explain that to you.

So, with my example, someone could have been shopping regardless. However, they tell themselves that they do not want to purchase that diamond ring in the jewelry section. His or her will is to not buy it. But the compulsion disregards her will and she buys it anyways.

Words that mean everything mean nothing.

So I can't point out and be nit-picky on your posts, but you can on mine.

Why are you more qualified to tell me what reasons for committing my own suicide makes sense more than I am? Are you talking about a situation in which someone is legit crazy and doesn't understand that dying makes you dead?

Yes, pretty much. If the person clearly cannot stably decide for themselves, whether it be because of being legitimately crazy, like you said, or even in a completely coma, then someone has to do it for them.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

*Sigh* I am trying to start a debate here does anyone wish to respond to my opinions.

 

[1048576]

Meh, you sound reasonable, Dragoon. Why not point out something I said wrong and then we can argue.

I still don't get your shopping analogy. If you don't want to buy things, then don't. Nobody's using the force on you to make your arms pull out your wallet. If you're buying things, more of your brain must have wanted to than did not.

I don't think I'm being nitpicky. But when you say anything can be compulsive, compulsive becomes a meaningless term. Like if I say anything can be blue, well that's true if I define blue as appearing anywhere on the wavelength spectrum, but then I've stripped blue of all its meaning.

The reason this is important is that there must be relevant differences between suicide and other things like shopping, for us to consider shopping morally acceptable and suicide morally unacceptable.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Meh, you sound reasonable, Dragoon. Why not point out something I said wrong and then we can argue.

Again, me doing it was wrong, but when you did it, it was okay. According to you. Good job.

I still don't get your shopping analogy. If you don't want to buy things, then don't. Nobody's using the force on you to make your arms pull out your wallet. If you're buying things, more of your brain must have wanted to than did not.

Alright, alright, alright, seriously. Let me explain this to you in the most simple way possible.

Definition of a compulsion

com·pul·sion
   
–noun
1.
the act of compelling; constraint; coercion.
2.
the state or condition of being compelled.
3.
Psychology . a strong, usually irresistible impulse to perform an act, esp. one that is irrational or contrary to one's will.


If someone is compulsive, that means that they act upon compulsions. Compulsions are things that you may not want to do, or may not have the will to, but do anyways. You may not have any control of this. It's subconscious, or in some ways, out of your hands completely. It is not black and white. I'm showing you the definition of it and how it pertains to the analogy. That compulsive shopper, when getting the compulsion to buy something, does not have control and that will to not buy it is overpowered.

Does. that. make. sense?

I don't think I'm being nitpicky. But when you say anything can be compulsive, compulsive becomes a meaningless term. Like if I say anything can be blue, well that's true if I define blue as appearing anywhere on the wavelength spectrum, but then I've stripped blue of all its meaning.

Well you are. I was being nit-picky, so were you.

And, no, compulsive doesn't become meaningless. That makes no sense. Being compulsive to anything doesn't mean that the condition is irrelevant. I'm literally dying to know what makes you think this.

Hey, anyone can get hit by a car, so it doesn't matter who gets hit by a car. Why protect the President if he accidentally wanders into traffic? Anyone can get hit by a car! The person itself is meaningless!

Or better yet, hey, anything I want can be a hobby. So then having a hobby is meaningless. I should just do nothing all day and be a lazy couch potato.

The reason this is important is that there must be relevant differences between suicide and other things like shopping, for us to consider shopping morally acceptable and suicide morally unacceptable.

Of course there are relevant differences. Being a compulsive shopper is a problem. You can lose a lot of money, have too many things, etc. But it is by no means even close to being in a state of mind that suicide becomes compulsive. That is a problem on an entirely different scale.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Alright, my opinion on suicide. (a) First society should do its best to discourage it and do its best to make suicide look immoral. Now I do not believe that is immoral to kill your self but only under certain conditions. (b) Not if you where a productive (or has the ability to become a productive member) of society or some one who is really emotional should almost never kill them selfs. Teens especially should not comment suicide as there is much of there life still unused, it would effect us as a whole indirectly or directly with such a waste of a human life. (c) Depressed people and mentally ill should not under normal circumstance kill them selfs (there are exceptions however.) However I truly must take my opinions on suicide on (d) a case by case bases. (RE: most depressing job in the world.)

Dragoon I just have a couple of questions:

(a) Why does society have to discourage suicide by making it amoral? Couldn't they establish laws that treat suicide as being a similar charge to homicide? I imagine that doing something illegal would bear more consequence than simply attempting to change social values. In addition, isn't it hard to change morals? Most people hardly live their lives by virtue, much less agree on necessary virtues to follow. I feel that it would be much easier to discourage suicide by making rules than attempting to change morals.

(b) How would you determine productivity? Is it moral to assume that youth will naturally be productive and should not kill themselves? Is it moral to use productivity as a standard in order to determine whether or not they can take their own life?

(c) Why shouldn't depressed and mentally ill people kill themselves? Aren't they sad and overburdened by the stresses of life? Isn't it a rational coping mechanism to kill yourself just like it is to play videogames, or an instrument, or to go out for a jog in roder to relieve yourself of the stress?

(d) What would those cases be? Euthanasia to cancer patients perhaps who have no hope of being cured? Human suffering, abuse, and victims of tyrannical governments? Providing examples will give us some common ground discussion.

 

[1048576]

Again, me doing it was wrong, but when you did it, it was okay. According to you. Good job.

What are you talking about?

Alright, alright, alright, seriously. Let me explain this to you in the most simple way possible.

Definition of a compulsion

com·pul·sion
   
–noun
1.
the act of compelling; constraint; coercion.
2.
the state or condition of being compelled.
3.
Psychology . a strong, usually irresistible impulse to perform an act, esp. one that is irrational or contrary to one's will.


If someone is compulsive, that means that they act upon compulsions. Compulsions are things that you may not want to do, or may not have the will to, but do anyways. You may not have any control of this. It's subconscious, or in some ways, out of your hands completely.

So dreaming is compulsive?

It is not black and white. Clearly, according to you.

I'm showing you the definition of it and how it pertains to the analogy. That compulsive shopper, when getting the compulsion to buy something, does not have control and that will to not buy it is overpowered.

Does. that. make. sense?

If his mind isn't making him buy it, what is (where does the impulse originate)? If his mind is making him buy it, then isn't it fair to say he wants to buy it?

I guess this would be a good time to say that I don't believe in free will due to causality and locality issues.





Well you are. I was being nit-picky, so were you.

And, no, compulsive doesn't become meaningless. That makes no sense. Being compulsive to anything doesn't mean that the condition is irrelevant. I'm literally dying to know what makes you think this.

I'm having a hard time parsing "compulsive to anything."

Hey, anyone can get hit by a car, so it doesn't matter who gets hit by a car. Why protect the President if he accidentally wanders into traffic? Anyone can get hit by a car! The person itself is meaningless!

Not everything is a car. Therefore the word car has meaning. Apparently everything is a compulsion.

Or better yet, hey, anything I want can be a hobby.

So then having a hobby is meaningless. I should just do nothing all day and be a lazy couch potato.

Only activities that you engage in can be hobbies, at least how I use the term. And besides, just because the word hobby isn't very useful doesn't mean you shouldn't have them. Just that you shouldn't just use the word hobby to describe them. Like, say "I knit things with my feet," not "I have a hobby."



Of course there are relevant differences. Being a compulsive shopper is a problem. You can lose a lot of money, have too many things, etc. But it is by no means even close to being in a state of mind that suicide becomes compulsive. That is a problem on an entirely different scale.

If you're trying to argue relevant moral differences, you need more than scale, since then my arbitrary cutoff point is higher than yours and we just call it a day.

Well through all the snark I managed to piece together that only thoughts or actions that you engage in due primary to some mysterious influence of an outside force can be compulsions. It's still not useful. Can we just use my definition, please? You know the for no reasonable reason thingy?

 

[SuperBowser]

I always feel a little sad when people show negative views to psychiatry.

55%-65% of depressed people aren't cured.

It's better than nothing, right? However, these numbers don't give the full picture.

Not all depressed people are suicidal. Not all depressed people that are suicidal will always be suicidal. While medications may not cure everybody, they can improve some of 55-60% to a level where they do not wish to commit suicide anymore.

But I take your point. It's kind of asking is the glass half-full or half empty.

Well, yeah, he's mentally ill if you define mentally ill as wanting to kill yourself. That's exactly what I was getting it. (He's ill, so he's suicidal and he's suicidal, so he's ill.) Suicidal desires are not irrational. It just means the world has given you more problems than you are able to cope with.

Or once you try it once they claim you're mentally ill or whatever and lock you up indefinitely. It really is something you have to get right the first time. Also, if you screw up, you might be too physically impaired to try again.

I promise they don't lock you up indefinitely for that. They will bring you in for 72 hours for assessment; if you do not have a mental illness you will be out.

I don't believe there is a mental illness that can be defined by a single wish to kill yourself.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Dragoon I just have a couple of questions:

(a) Why does society have to discourage suicide by making it amoral? Couldn't they establish laws that treat suicide as being a similar charge to homicide? I imagine that doing something illegal would bear more consequence than simply attempting to change social values. In addition, isn't it hard to change morals? Most people hardly live their lives by virtue, much less agree on necessary virtues to follow. I feel that it would be much easier to discourage suicide by making rules than attempting to change morals.

They should make suicide look immoral so people will think of it last. Suicide should be an extreme last resort. Making it illegal is odd as you can't punish the crime if they succeed (That has confused me for a long time now) but by making it seem immoral parents and friends of a person thinking about suicide, for those that actuarially care about a fellow family member they seeing suicide as immoral will try to do there best to talk him or her out of it.

(b) How would you determine productivity? Is it moral to assume that youth will naturally be productive and should not kill themselves? Is it moral to use productivity as a standard in order to determine whether or not they can take their own life?

Teen or below would be possibly productive. As for adult if they are skilled in any thing they have a possibility of productiveness. It all really depends but a job is a sure sign of productiveness.

(c) Why shouldn't depressed and mentally ill people kill themselves? Aren't they sad and overburdened by the stresses of life? Isn't it a rational coping mechanism to kill yourself just like it is to play videogames, or an instrument, or to go out for a jog in roder to relieve yourself of the stress?

Normally yes however as long as there is some hope of recovery (I.E. there is medication for the mentally ill and depressed.) they should not be so quick to use a solution that last forever to (possibly) temporary problems.

(d) What would those cases be? Euthanasia to cancer patients perhaps who have no hope of being cured? Human suffering, abuse, and victims of tyrannical governments? Providing examples will give us some common ground discussion.

A cancer patent who has no hope of recover and does not have a family that wants/needs him is one example in which I would not consider suicide a crime. Tyrannical governments only if there imprisoned and there more or less going to die soon then I would not hold it against them. However Euthanasia is immoral it has to be voluntary for it to be moral. Suicide should be the last solution Normally I can understand people using it is cases in which there is truly no hope of recovery or survival and they are making the choice to end it with a rational mind.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Well through all the snark I managed to piece together that only thoughts or actions that you engage in due primary to some mysterious influence of an outside force can be compulsions. It's still not useful. Can we just use my definition, please? You know the for no reasonable reason thingy?

I'm using the definition of the word. I gave my sources.

What are you talking about?

I pointed out something you said. You then said, simply put, skip the bull**** with the semantics and actually respond to my point. Then, in that same post, you quoted something I said and replied in the exact same manner I replied to your post. You were being hypocritical.

So dreaming is compulsive?

No, because you can't dream intentionally anyways. You have no control over it regardless. If someone had the capability to dream intentionally, then technically it could be compulsive if it gets to a point that it has the capability to do so.

In reality, I'm sure anything can be compulsive, but it's usually things that are repetitive and simple in nature. Thus, it is more likely that washing your hands will be become compulsive rather than visiting the top of Mount Everest. Both can technically be compulsive, but because of how simple washing your hands is and how repetitive it can be in someone's routine, it is more than likely to be something that makes someone compulsive.

With that said, the act of suicide cannot be compulsive, since you can only die once. But, thinking about it can be, as well as attempting it (assuming that you fail every time). It would also be along the lines of obsession, but it could still be compulsive nonetheless. And when suicidal thoughts or actions become compulsive or obsessive, that becomes a problem, as I've said.

If his mind isn't making him buy it, what is (where does the impulse originate)? If his mind is making him buy it, then isn't it fair to say he wants to buy it?

I guess this would be a good time to say that I don't believe in free will due to causality and locality issues.

Well, I'd rather not get into philosophical debates on mind and body or free will, but things tend to get subconscious. The impulse would always come from the mind, but not necessarily the conscious of the person. It's like dreaming. The dreams still stem from the mind, but not at the will of the person or his/her intentions.

I'm having a hard time parsing "compulsive to anything."

Read earlier in this post.

Not everything is a car. Therefore the word car has meaning. Apparently everything is a compulsion.

Read my earlier in this post.

To clarify, again, it's possible that anything can be a compulsion. That does not, however, mean that everything will be a compulsion. Again, is it possible that someone may have the compulsion to climb a mountain? Sure. But it's extremely unlikely because of the task itself.

Taking a look at the many symptoms of OCD, (source), many of them are rather simple:

-Bathing excessively
-Always eating food in a certain way
-Repeating certain words or phrases

In the case of suicide, compulsively thinking about suicide or obsessing about it is very simple. Anyone can come up with the thought. Suicide attempts can be physically simple as well, which, again, brings me to my original point, that suicidal behavior can become a symptom of mental illness and is thus a way to judge if the person is qualified to make that decision or not.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Bump because I am curious to see the response to my argument unless of course there is no disagreement.

 

[1048576]

I forgot where I was going with this. According to either definition I'll agree with you that compulsive suicide is mental illness. I also think that compulsive skydiving or compulsive tiddlywinks are mental illnesses.

@Dragoon I think making suicide illegal enables the govt. to take all your assets instead of giving them to your grieving loved ones.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

@Dragoon I think making suicide illegal enables the govt. to take all your assets instead of giving them to your grieving loved ones.

Huh, I never heard that before. Not that I doubt you but can you provide a link?

 

[1048576]

Wow good thing you called me out on that. I must have dreamed it up or heard it from a non-credible source. Suicide hasn't been illegal in US since 1963. Wikipedia "Suicide Legislation." I couldn't find the punishment for suicide in societies where it remains illegal.

 

[SuperBowser]

It's not an enforced law in any western country even if it still exists in some places. You'll only see people brought in against their will in the context of mental illness.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

I feel that moral permissibility varies from personal permissibility and legal permissibility.

 

[SuperBowser]

My response was to numbers dude.

(I think it's useful to know the status quo in our society anyway.)

 

[eschemat]

Dragoon I just have a couple of questions:

(a) Why does society have to discourage suicide by making it amoral? Couldn't they establish laws that treat suicide as being a similar charge to homicide? I imagine that doing something illegal would bear more consequence than simply attempting to change social values. In addition, isn't it hard to change morals? Most people hardly live their lives by virtue, much less agree on necessary virtues to follow. I feel that it would be much easier to discourage suicide by making rules than attempting to change morals.

(b) How would you determine productivity? Is it moral to assume that youth will naturally be productive and should not kill themselves? Is it moral to use productivity as a standard in order to determine whether or not they can take their own life?

(c) Why shouldn't depressed and mentally ill people kill themselves? Aren't they sad and overburdened by the stresses of life? Isn't it a rational coping mechanism to kill yourself just like it is to play videogames, or an instrument, or to go out for a jog in roder to relieve yourself of the stress?

(d) What would those cases be? Euthanasia to cancer patients perhaps who have no hope of being cured? Human suffering, abuse, and victims of tyrannical governments? Providing examples will give us some common ground discussion.

What is this I don't even...

A.) We make it immoral because of the fact that if you attempt suicide and you fail at it, you're going to get fined or whatever. What that doesn't help is their depression or their urges to commit suicide. It's not a proper deterrent because often times emotions cause people to be irrational and make dumb decisions so moral deterrents are worth more in that situation.

B.) Being productive in itself it a big reason. We have to give them the option of actually being productive, and if they are, they then can in turn help other people. We always have to give them the option to productive instead of taking that option out entirely.

C.) The difference is that death is not actually a solution for everybody. When you die, you solve your problem for yourself, but the problem that there already was for your friends and family fester. Also, like I said, emotions can make people irrational so they can't make their own decisions for themselves properly. Their agency (AKA their freedoms etc. like how children have to let their parent's give them permission for whatever) are held by the doctors partially in that case.

D.) This isn't really my argument so yeah. I won't even talk about it.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

What is this I don't even...

Sorry, I do not know that phrase can some one please explain?

A.) We make it immoral because of the fact that if you attempt suicide and you fail at it, you're going to get fined or whatever. What that doesn't help is their depression or their urges to commit suicide. It's not a proper deterrent because often times emotions cause people to be irrational and make dumb decisions so moral deterrents are worth more in that situation.

I can mostly agree to this. Edit: Forgot the mostly

B.) Being productive in itself it a big reason. We have to give them the option of actually being productive, and if they are, they then can in turn help other people. We always have to give them the option to productive instead of taking that option out entirely.

I can agree to this, though it does not literally take the option out entirely as the option is always there but what it does do is make the person not want to take that option.

C.) The difference is that death is not actually a solution for everybody. When you die, you solve your problem for yourself, but the problem that there already was for your friends and family fester. Also, like I said, emotions can make people irrational so they can't make their own decisions for themselves properly. Their agency (AKA their freedoms etc. like how children have to let their parent's give them permission for whatever) are held by the doctors partially in that case.

I can mostly agree to this.

D.) This isn't really my argument so yeah. I won't even talk about it.

Can I hear you opinion on it though?