Suggestions for Changes to Link's Design

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

Ok, after playing Link for quite a while in Project M, I have a few suggestions of tweaks to the character:

1. Less startup frames on his bomb pull - Link's bombs are very useful for providing some aerial mobility, and I feel this tweak would help him out significantly. Too many times I remember getting punished for pulling a bomb in midair without a double jump, when being able to utilize his bombs would have been the best option to cover his landing as opposed to just throwing out a nair or whatever else. Also, pulling his bombs quicker would also allow him to aerial glide toss recover quickly enough from way below the stage as opposed to just dying from too slow of a bomb pull to begin his AGT recovery.

2. Crouch cancel options - He needs better CC options imo; his dtilt is too slow, and while dsmash is decent, it doesn't provide a great follow up like some of the other characters have. A great way to rectify this imo would be to change his dtilt to a quick crouching poke, like all the other sword characters, that can lead to follow up combos (like the hit confirm can sends opponents up and towards Link for example).

3. Clawshot grab - Give Link a grab similar to his Smash 64 grab, where his clawshot expands and retracts fluidly, and of course have active grab frames throughout the entirety of the animation (like Lucas for example). This would make Link's grab less punishable overall since his grab is already one of the slower grabs in the game. I just think that his fishing rod type grab is a flaw and a huge misrepresentation in the character design that should be abolished.

And that's it for now. I hope that my suggestions will be considered and ultimately implemented in a future update to Project M. Thanks for reading. Thoughts?

 

[Gespenst]

I think the ground up-B is too spammable. We ban him because a player can just up-B spin-to-win Garen style and it's no fun, especially on small maps. I really don't want to have Link banned, but that move is too powerful!

 

[NaijaboyIrin]

Ok, after playing Link for quite a while in Project M, I have a few suggestions of tweaks to the character:

1. Less startup frames on his bomb pull - Link's bombs are very useful for providing some aerial mobility, and I feel this tweak would help him out significantly. Too many times I remember getting punished for pulling a bomb in midair without a double jump, when being able to utilize his bombs would have been the best option to cover his landing as opposed to just throwing out a nair or whatever else. Also, pulling his bombs quicker would also allow him to aerial glide toss recover quickly enough from way below the stage as opposed to just dying from too slow of a bomb pull to begin his AGT recovery.

2. Crouch cancel options - He needs better CC options imo; his dtilt is too slow, and while dsmash is decent, it doesn't provide a great follow up like some of the other characters have. A great way to rectify this imo would be to change his dtilt to a quick crouching poke, like all the other sword characters, that can lead to follow up combos (like the hit confirm can sends opponents up and towards Link for example).

3. Clawshot grab - Give Link a grab similar to his Smash 64 grab, where his clawshot expands and retracts fluidly, and of course have active grab frames throughout the entirety of the animation (like Lucas for example). This would make Link's grab less punishable overall since his grab is already one of the slower grabs in the game. I just think that his fishing rod type grab is a flaw and a huge misrepresentation in the character design that should be abolished.

And that's it for now. I hope that my suggestions will be considered and ultimately implemented in a future update to Project M. Thanks for reading. Thoughts?

Hey ALSM! Haven't seen you in a while. How's it goin'?
I think that these are some legit suggestions, especially the CC one. While Dtilt has a meteor hitbox that eats up CC, it is just a tad too slow against some.
Dsmash is terrible as a CC option until high %s so I always use Dtilt at low %s.

As for grab, I had a different idea. Maybe give him a hand grab box that is out around frames 9-10 and have the claw portion come out later at frame 11-onwards, at which point the hand grab box disappears. I think this will help him against SHFFL spammers who can abuse the fact that his air grab range is average size but still slower than average.

Rather than make bombs come out faster, I would like arrows to be better at their job first. It would give him more variety in his projectile game.

I think the ground up-B is too spammable. We ban him because a player can just up-B spin-to-win Garen style and it's no fun, especially on small maps. I really don't want to have Link banned, but that move is too powerful!

Spammable? Care ti explain how? UpB has, like, 50-60 frames of lag on block. Getting shielded out of the move is a free stock for the other guy if you're at kill %s. Also, it doesn't hit low, so it you keep getting edgeguarded, learn to sweetspot the ledge.
Link is a little better than average relative to the rest of the cast.

 

[Dan Salvato]

I disagree with your proposition, and I think that those changes would be bad design. Below I go into detail.

Bomb pull: Link's bombs do offer him aerial mobility, but their primary use is still that they're a PROJECTILE. Attempting to pull a bomb while within attack range of your opponent should get you punished. Link's bomb is one of his best tools for keep-away and causing approaches to backfire. Being able to pull them willy-nilly without getting punished would be overpowered.

Crouch cancel: Link is designed to be a mid-range fighter with a variety of projectiles that help prevent the opponent from getting in, as well as open them up to safe approaches from Link. Link is extremely strong as a mid-range fighter and can space his attacks so well that they are virtually unpunishable. If your opponent DOES get in, then you deserve to be punished. Link's weakness is the heavy pressure you have to endure if you let your opponent get in on you, and that's a fine weakness. Weaknesses are important in character design.

Clawshot: Link has one of the most versatile grabs in the game. He can do all of the following: Punish attacks that are normally safe on shield because they would push any other character out of grab range; Chaingrab some of the cast at lower percents; Open a 40%+ combo against any member of the cast at low-mid percents; Combo into a kill against any member of the cast at high percents. Link's grab SHOULD be high-risk, high-reward, where you are highly rewarded for getting a good read on your opponent but highly punished for misreading. That balance is in place as it is, despite the clawshot not behaving in a "canonical" way.

Link is designed to have weaknesses. Any well-designed character should be. You're not just asking his weaknesses to be lessened, you're asking for his weaknesses to be converted into strengths. In the end, that would give you:
-No reason to worry about spacing
-No reason to worry about safe approaching
-No reason to analyze and read your opponent
-No reason to actively avoid disadvantageous situations

Without weaknesses, Smash loses the qualities that make it a great game.

 

[dRevan64]

Man it takes some dedication to argue that thoroughly against buffing your own character.
Aero I don't think straight buffs and design changes are quite the same thing man, and it's hard to make a convincing argument for the former by reframing them as the latter. You're not really finding incongruities in his moveset, you're finding weaknesses in his moveset which like ie already covered are there for explicit balance reasons. In a perfect world we could get 30+ characters that all play differently and all have "good" options in any situation but that's not really how game design shakes out.

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

The incongruities I mentioned are about his dtilt and his clawshot. Decreasing startup on bomb pull is a straight buff that will help Link out significantly.

 

[Gespenst]

I still think something should be done about his spin. My explanation is that I have a friend who plays like this.
1. push up-B
2. Repeat step 1.
And it's really annoying. I guess we're all noobs or something, but I would like for maybe the range or knockback or SOMETHING to be changed so that my friend can't to that.

 

[Problem2]

You can shield the beginning of Link's up-b and the rest of the move won't even hit you. Like, his sword will go right through you so long as you shield it once. (This only applies to grounded up-b)

 

[Gespenst]

You can shield the beginning of Link's up-b and the rest of the move won't even hit you. Like, his sword will go right through you so long as you shield it once. (This only applies to grounded up-b)

Thanks, I'll tell the crew.

 

[₤ink]

• ▲B: mistimed, it would lose damage and knock-back over time, instead of being a killer if skilled and a semi-spike if adequate. Also, it would be able to hit once per spin. Overall, it would be less punishable, but increasingly less deadly with worse timing.
  
• ►Tilt: Instead of that overhead swipe (that also hits behind him), how about a shield bash. His walking animation already holds the shield up. A shield bash would reflect projectiles, at the risk of leaving Link open in the later frames of the animation, when his shield is out of the way.
• Dash Attack: different knock-back. It kills off the top a bit too easily. Instead, it would be a short stun strike, with little-to-no knockback. Link would slice through his opponent (movie-samurai-style), then have a bit of a head-start on reaction from there.
• Recovery: Can he wall-jump? I don't remember, but he should be able to. If that would result in OP recovery, he could also have a slightly slower tether retraction or something like that to balance it.
• Z-Air: I like iThe_King's idea: ability to become an air-grab IF you press A at the right time during a sweet-spot hit (meaning, if the chain just connects at full-extention). Then, it would release as soon as the chain retracted, giving Link some options, but not many because he's not the fastest... and no more Z-Airs until he lands, if it connects.

P.S. I love Link, played him since Smash 64, so I obviously appreciate the rework, but he feels too easy. I beat players far better than me.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

P.S. I love Link, played him since Smash 64, so I obviously appreciate the rework, but he feels too easy. I beat players far better than me.

If you're beating them easily then they may not be as better than you as you think.

I still think something should be done about his spin. My explanation is that I have a friend who plays like this.
1. push up-B
2. Repeat step 1.
And it's really annoying. I guess we're all noobs or something, but I would like for maybe the range or knockback or SOMETHING to be changed so that my friend can't to that.

So I don't enjoy activating **** mode but HAVE YOU HEARD OF THE SHIELD BUTTON. No character can win just by spamming Up-B as long you have a conception of spacing and punishment. If your friend keeps using Up-B, wait for it and punish the endlag. My buddy used to stand and charge Flare Blades with Roy in neutral until I started waiting for him to finish and then going in and combo'ing him off the stage with Ike, or chucking a pill in his face with Doc. This is a silly tactic and a bad habit and if he is as telegraphed as you say it is, the onus is on you for falling for it. Step back, move and f*** him up when he's done Up-B'ing for being a predictable narb. If you play Ike I recommend dair to bair to QD jump Nair to edgeguard, which is one of a plethora of options you have to kick his ass into the blastzones. If you play anyone else I recommend [insert combo or powerful smash/aerial here], seriously, ain't that hard.

 

[Deleted member]

1.

it matters how many frames you're talking about removing. his bomb game is already extremely strong and his recovery is great as it is now, too drastic of a change might make these things too powerful. i think there's a fine line between buffing it too much. the only reason why i'll agree and think this would be a good change is because pulling a bomb from mid range is unsafe on characters with good movement speed atm.

2.

CC grab, upsmash, up b, up tilt. it's link, so all these moves are situational as you know.

i would like for this d tilt to not be useless for once. maybe increased speed and launch power would work.

3.

link's 64 grab was terrible and his grab already has ridiculous range and active frames atm. i constantly grab people through their spot dodges and rolls. i think he only needs a faster pivot grab

imo the main thing he needs are better OoS options

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

imo the main thing he needs are better OoS options

I really feel this ties back to IE's assertion of weaknesses. If they got in that close, you'll be punished for it. It's a feature, not a bug, in other words.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Man, if you gave Link a reliably good OOS option, I really don't know how anybody would beat him.
The only way I could see to balance this is to make him even more comboable, which would possibly involve nerfing his aerial mobility or Nair. Truthfully, I think I'd prefer the lesser OOS options.

As a probably-biased Link player, I honestly think Link is close to perfect as he is, and definitely doesn't need any significant buffs.

 

[A Revelation]

Hey guys I'm proposing a ridiculous idea that might just add some variety to his projectile game if possible.

We all know that arrows are kind of bottom tier in Link's bag of stuff compared to the usefulness of his other items.

Cons:
-They have little to no blockstun.
-They don't really bother on Hit.
-Freezes him in place.
Pros:
-Sniping characters as they recover. (That's only for characters with linear recoveries.)
-Pestering full-screen (I suppose, you lose a lot of momentum and ground when someone sees you ready a shot.)

There really isn't a real reason to use it in my opinion.

However what if the pushback of the arrow was increased on block? (If possible)
Instead of moving no where maybe the character who blocked it slides backwards a slight amount. I'm not sure how far back I would like them to slide.
Maybe like the distance of ness' fsmash on block?

The arrow itself would be negative on block so though it might not be punished (due to spacing) it's not safe either up close.

Just a random thought that maybe someone can mess with.

Maybe arrows could knockdown on hit?
Or a switching system would change them from fire/ice/light?

 

[Fenrir VII]

Maybe arrows could knockdown on hit?

omg yes. PMBR Do this nao. cross-stage bananas ftw

#whydoyoupeoplewantlinktobesobroken?

 

[Player -0]

Because Link is worse than Jiggz.

 

[₤ink]

About those arrows... how about an (A)+(B) fire-arrow shot?
• Link can arch these at an angle (increased gravity, slower speed)
• less knock-back
• fire damage

These would be useful for poking instead of sniping...

 

[Wolf_]

He really doesn't need any of that, I say just leave Link alone for good, I think he's fine, his punish game is strong but his slow mobility and his slow jump make him very susceptible to pressure, his recovery is good if you can bomb jump consistently but a good amount of his moves are laggy and punishable, with Link you gotta bait and punish him or if you're a character like Fox, just keep the pressure strong, I don't think he needs any nerfs or buffs

 

[ITALIAN N1NJA]

Link is perfect as he is. Around my neck of the woods there are already tons of people who think Link is too powerful. He is far from overpowered. He is a risk/reward character and he requires proper zoning and what not. You've all heard this before. He has weaknesses. It's good game design. If he had no weaknesses he would be overpowered. Again. Link is perfect the way he is in my opinion and I think the PMBR did a great job and should leave him as is.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

The ONLY thing Link needs is that his D-Smash needs to NOT be CC-able.

A lot of characters can CC Link's D-Smash at 30-40%

I should be getting a knock-down. Not getting hit when I'm hitting them.

ESPECIALLY with an attack as strong as Link's D-smash.
----
Something that would be NICE would be his held bomb time to be restored to Melee. (This is mostly so I can do more fancy bomb tricks.)
----

The ideas proposed in the OP would turn Link into a degenerate character devoid of skill requirement.

Link needs nothing in terms of a design change.

He's perfect as he is, excluding the one glaring flaw in his D-Smash.
----
In conclusion, PMBR, PLEASE FIX LINK'S D-SMASH!!

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

A Link consistent with arrows can stuff a good number of recoveries with well-timed snipes. Using the quick-draw version to just saturate the space between Link and his opponent is common as well. Arrows may not be an awesome neutral/zoning tool but they're not useless, and don't really need a buff when they were already significantly improved.

 

[EmptySky00]

.... I seriously just read that Link can function off of a 1, 2 Up B rinse repeat strategy...

God damn it why can't I be dying of a terminal illness so I don't have to have my mind poisoned with such nonsense any longer?

 

[Radical Larry]

Hey guys I'm proposing a ridiculous idea that might just add some variety to his projectile game if possible.

We all know that arrows are kind of bottom tier in Link's bag of stuff compared to the usefulness of his other items.

Cons:
-They have little to no blockstun.
-They don't really bother on Hit.
-Freezes him in place.
Pros:
-Sniping characters as they recover. (That's only for characters with linear recoveries.)
-Pestering full-screen (I suppose, you lose a lot of momentum and ground when someone sees you ready a shot.)

There really isn't a real reason to use it in my opinion.

However what if the pushback of the arrow was increased on block? (If possible)
Instead of moving no where maybe the character who blocked it slides backwards a slight amount. I'm not sure how far back I would like them to slide.
Maybe like the distance of ness' fsmash on block?

The arrow itself would be negative on block so though it might not be punished (due to spacing) it's not safe either up close.

Just a random thought that maybe someone can mess with.

Maybe arrows could knockdown on hit?
Or a switching system would change them from fire/ice/light?

You forgot two pros, and that's that it sends the opponents more horizontally and acts like a gimping move.

 

[Warhawk]

People seem to always complain that Link's dtilt is useless and while the startup is undesirable if you hit with the meteor part of the hitbox on a grounded opponent it leads to some pretty free followups on most characters. I think like a lot of his tools it just has its niche uses

 

[Hylian]

Links Dtilt is amazing.

 

[Deleted member]

Links Dtilt is amazing.

explain

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

Lol, I posted this like the first week I played 3.0. Interesting to look back from now, I'm totally fine the way Link is now; too bad he's probably going to get nerfed.

 

[NickRiddle]

Just don't nerf our beautiful boomerang.

 

[Problem2]

From bits and pieces of discussion I've gathered over time, it sounds like a lot of projectiles in PM are getting nerfed.
The next update just sounds like a lot of nerfs in general.

But if they nerf our boomerang, they should totally change the hitbox to hit slightly lower. Link's boomerang is kind of polarizing in terms of which characters can deal with it. Some are big, slow fatties that have a hard time. Some are tiny fast characters that are short enough to run underneath it. If they do that, then bigger characters will have an easier time with nerfed boomerang and smaller characters won't have it too easy.

 

[Fenrir VII]

From bits and pieces of discussion I've gathered over time, it sounds like a lot of projectiles in PM are getting nerfed.
The next update just sounds like a lot of nerfs in general.

But if they nerf our boomerang, they should totally change the hitbox to hit slightly lower. Link's boomerang is kind of polarizing in terms of which characters can deal with it. Some are big, slow fatties that have a hard time. Some are tiny fast characters that are short enough to run underneath it. If they do that, then bigger characters will have an easier time with nerfed boomerang and smaller characters won't have it too easy.

This is a great idea.. Somebody take this back to the PMBR.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

From bits and pieces of discussion I've gathered over time, it sounds like a lot of projectiles in PM are getting nerfed.
The next update just sounds like a lot of nerfs in general.

But if they nerf our boomerang, they should totally change the hitbox to hit slightly lower. Link's boomerang is kind of polarizing in terms of which characters can deal with it. Some are big, slow fatties that have a hard time. Some are tiny fast characters that are short enough to run underneath it. If they do that, then bigger characters will have an easier time with nerfed boomerang and smaller characters won't have it too easy.

Are your sources reliable?

 

[Pug]

I could probably deal with Link being a bit more like his melee counterpart, just don't take away his AGT ;~;

 

[NickRiddle]

They'd have to completely change the mechanics of the game to get rid of AGT.