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Sudden Death Viability for Tournament Play

Sucumbio

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Currently, the recommendation for TOs ruling on a tie (both players have equal stock left when TIME is called) is to see who had the lower damage %, and thus that person is declared victor.

I however, submit that allowing for the Sudden Death match to be played out is more appropriate.

Reasoning for:

1.) Sudden Death tests First-Strike capability, something that SHOULD be measured when considering the competitive aspects of a player's skill.

2.) Not all characters work the same.

Example: Snake vs MK --> in this match up, MK will rely on several smaller damage percentage hits to get snake within KO range. Snake will have his heavier hits, albeit more risky because slower, he's got his nades, and he has more straight up KO hits. If a match goes 8 minutes, and both players have equal stock or are on their last stock, it's not difficult to imagine the MK will have landed more blows than the snake, technically. That's MK's "shortcoming" if you will, his necessity. By NOT going to sudden death, you end up punishing the character, even though both players did what they're supposed to do, and played their characters as they were designed to be played, the match goes to snake cause he only has to land say, 12 strikes vs MK's 20 to achieve KO.

3.) No Johns. If you can't KO your oppoenent 3 times before 8 min run out, and then you lose in a 300% battle, it's YOUR fault, not theirs. "What about the bob-ombs?" ... read below in "reasoning against."

4.) Stage viability is increased. There are a few stages that are banned because of their potential for the match to drag out too long. Circling is rendered moot w/a Sudden Death enabled. Circle camp all ya like! So long as you're not winning only by percent, you're not winning. Sudden Death gives you an incentive to NOT circle camp, because you may be weak at 300% brawling. It also makes fair, a terribly unfair strategy that doesn't technically fit under the ban rule of stalling.

Reasoning against:

1.) The Bob-ombs. Yeah these start spawning after a bit. If the match isn't won by the time they spawn, your first-strike capability is so judged. Now you have to try to win amidst the chaos. True there are some stages where you can literally both be standing still, and still not die! But..... that's stalling! So it shouldn't happen. You'll both have to figure a way out to KO the other, w/o dying yourself.
"I shouldn't be punished for being the better brawler by someone who just barely lived long enough to go to sudden death, and then he won because I got hit by a bob-omb."
My response? No Johns.

Other source material:

1.) AA wrote up a piece on Spawn Points in Sudden Death that I only briefly reviewed, and had a little trouble understanding, but I think it could play into this discussion.

And so... discuss!
 

Kewkky

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What if both characters jump off the ledge, and start ledgecamping (grabbing the ledge, letting go, re-grabbing the ledge, ...)? What would happen?
 

Vex514

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This is actually an extremely good point which I'm surprised I haven't heard brought up before. I like the idea of it yet winning by percentage can give incentive to not stall just so much as stall. For instance, if your opponent is playing a campy character and is sitting back not approaching, waiting for you to come into their threat range it's not a fun situation. It's disadvantageous sometimes to chase down a character who you have a bad MU against (for example) running through the spam just to come into their melee range when you were perfectly safe at a distance either blocking or easily avoiding the spam.

Now with percentage initiative, if you have a lower percent, they can't sit there. They have to stop their camping and allow the match to continue. I say this because I have experience against players who will camp and justify it by saying "I've got less health". If the game was taken to SD then the camping player would have a gross advantage in a match, camping regardless, never approaching and I believe partly, the game would become overly defensive and turtle-ish.

I do agree however that it would be unfair in a scenario such as Snake vs Metaknight where the damage output is significantly different but the shifts in the way some people play the game would, imo, prove to be much more unfair and also more frequent a problem.

EDIT: Also I just reread part of your post and I have a problem with "First Strike". There is a large amount of characters who's fastest moves would not gain a KO against an opponent and a fair amount of characters who would. The match would drop quickly into the faster characters favor who's KO moves are running attacks or nairs or other quick drawn moves
 

Luigi player

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4.) Stage viability is increased. There are a few stages that are banned because of their potential for the match to drag out too long. Circling is rendered moot w/a Sudden Death enabled. Circle camp all ya like! So long as you're not winning only by percent, you're not winning. Sudden Death gives you an incentive to NOT circle camp, because you may be weak at 300% brawling. It also makes fair, a terribly unfair strategy that doesn't technically fit under the ban rule of stalling.
What if the enemy kills you once and then runs away?

Reasoning against:

1.) The Bob-ombs. Yeah these start spawning after a bit. If the match isn't won by the time they spawn, your first-strike capability is so judged. Now you have to try to win amidst the chaos. True there are some stages where you can literally both be standing still, and still not die! But..... that's stalling! So it shouldn't happen. You'll both have to figure a way out to KO the other, w/o dying yourself.
"I shouldn't be punished for being the better brawler by someone who just barely lived long enough to go to sudden death, and then he won because I got hit by a bob-omb."
My response? No Johns.
This is really lol.
What if I have 200 % 2 stocks and my opponent 1 stock 100 %. Now time get's closer and he manages to kill me before the time runs out... my enemy should be dead with about 1 hit and I should be able to take way more before I get KOd, but with Sudden Death it's 1 hit for us both. This isn't fair.
 

gm jack

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What happen if someone gets taken to their final stock just as the timer goes when the opponent is on 150% on their last stock? One certainly was winning.

The closest thing the current system has to a problem with the system is that the different weights of the characters means that a heavy character can be in a safer position, but a higher percentage (e.g. Snake on 80% vs MK on 75%), so while they would be winning if the timer didn't stop, they lose due to the straight damage output.

However, I would say these discrepancies are far less than ignoring potentially huge % differences so long as they are same stock to go to a one hit kills situation where eventually, random Bombs can end you just by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

There is a slight flaw in the system, yes, but your solution introduces many more.
 

Vex514

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The problem with a one stock game is the problem of time. If time is present, the same problem continues to persist. If Time is not present, then as I previously mentioned, the camping character would have no reason to approach, forcing the opponent into a bad situation for themselves.
 

2001

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So many reasons.....................not to do this............can't post...........help me...........
 

Spelt

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Lol first strike capability has nothing to do with brawl skill.
most people would much rather camp it out than rush in for the first hit, which doesn't really mean much in the long run.
 

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Whilst this would reduce certain characters urge to camp during a match due to the percent lead being useless (like Wario), IIRC, on Final Destination, Jiggs, MK, and Kirby can plank under the lip of FD, so that they are never able to be hit by a Bomb-Omb explosion, meaning should it become a sudden death scenario, these three characters are essentially undefeatable on FD and (in theory) on a lot of other stages. This means that these three characters have a considerable reason to plank/circle camp, so unless there is going to be Kirby/Jiggs/MK bans on certain stages, then I don't see this being accepted competatively (especially considering which stages would have to have the KJB ban, like FD).

Also, I have a problem with you counter argument of 'No Johns'. If we applied this to other situations it would not work out, like planking and stalling. "Timer running out in you match against MKs? No Johns." No Johns isn't an argument.
 

Kewkky

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Gives you insentive to kill them, instead of planking yourself.
Pfft, some characters can run the timer out AND kill you before you kill them. MK has an invincible upB, that pretty much destroys most approaches in a sudden death. Just walk, shield and upB. VICTORY!
 

Vex514

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Gives you insentive to kill them, instead of planking yourself.
The point that was made was in a 2 stock to 1 stock advantage where the clock times out right after it becomes 0% 1 stock to 150% 1 stock. How is it fair in that situation? You were killing them just fine you just didn't have enough time to finish that last piece off and because of that they suddenly decide to give him 0% as well to make it fair? Can't let you do that
 

GunmasterLombardi

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planking would **** this imo
No, the ledge grab rule will still apply, maybe even lower in SD.

You are abviously not the better player if the opponent manages to time you out for 8 MINUTES. I approve sudden deaths for tournaments. If you get timed out (which you shouldn't) and are wiped by a bomb-omb that's your fault.

No Johns IS an argument, but no one wants to put proper limits on stalling and circling so here we are.:snake:
 

Chuee

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Wait so if a Wario player has 0% and a snake player has 150% when the time runs out, you want the winner to be decided on who can get the first hit?
Kinda weird.
 

GunmasterLombardi

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Wait so if a Wario player has 0% and a snake player has 150% when the time runs out, you want the winner to be decided on who can get the first hit?
Kinda weird.
Wario vs Snake should never last 8 minutes. And w/ those percents that you concur, the Wario player deserves to lose in SD since he chose not to simply leap over and waft or fsmash the Snake.
Kinda stupid assumption. :snake:
 

Chuee

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Wario vs Snake should never last 8 minutes. And w/ those percents that you concur, the Wario player deserves to lose in SD since he chose not to simply leap over and waft or fsmash the Snake.
Kinda stupid assumption. :snake:
lol getting a waft or Fsmash isn't really easy. Snake living forever doesn't help either. Oh and what if the wario had already tried Fsmash and the snake survived or if his waft wasn't fully charged.
 

Vex514

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obviously some people here have never timed out a tough match and haven't quite realized that a REALLY good and challenging match can go on for a long time if both players are incredibly smart >.> Tbh, imo timing out doesn't mean the players were bad i think it means they were both excellent
 

Kewkky

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Wario vs Snake should never last 8 minutes.
Are you serious? Do you even know how top players play? Have you seen DMG play against Snakes in Brinstar? You should feel bad for saying such a bad thing.

And w/ those percents that you concur, the Wario player deserves to lose in SD since he chose not to simply leap over and waft or fsmash the Snake.
Oh yes, because Snake's ftilt and utilt don't shut those Wario approaches down at all (theoretically). And even more so, knowing Wario can miss the fart AND CAN ONLY BE USED WHEN A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME PASSES, but Snake can repeat the same attack over and over if he wants to.
 

Sucumbio

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What if both characters jump off the ledge, and start ledgecamping (grabbing the ledge, letting go, re-grabbing the ledge, ...)? What would happen?
This would be considered stalling. Neither character is approaching the other, they're just looking out for themselves, wasting precious time before the bob-ombs appear... and then when they do appear, they're just similarly trying to avoid the bob-ombs and not approaching one another. The punishment for first letting a match go the full 8 min, and then not being able to KO your opponent in SD before the bob-ombs, is then trying to finish the fight WITH the bob-ombs present. Moral of this story: Get better at finishing off your opponent in less than 8 minutes.

What if the enemy kills you once and then runs away?
Then it won't go to SD.

What if I have 200 % 2 stocks and my opponent 1 stock 100 %. Now time get's closer and he manages to kill me before the time runs out... my enemy should be dead with about 1 hit and I should be able to take way more before I get KOd, but with Sudden Death it's 1 hit for us both. This isn't fair.
Then you shouldn't have taken so long! That's kinda the whole point of this. If 8 minutes isn't enough to resolve a match, then SD will. Either that or start making matches 12 minutes. With that, though, I fear the same thing could happen, people just camp/plank/be gay for LONGER periods of time, and it'll still end up in either deciding victor by % or SD.

Whilst this would reduce certain characters urge to camp during a match due to the percent lead being useless (like Wario), IIRC, on Final Destination, Jiggs, MK, and Kirby can plank under the lip of FD, so that they are never able to be hit by a Bomb-Omb explosion, meaning should it become a sudden death scenario, these three characters are essentially undefeatable on FD and (in theory) on a lot of other stages. This means that these three characters have a considerable reason to plank/circle camp, so unless there is going to be Kirby/Jiggs/MK bans on certain stages, then I don't see this being accepted competatively (especially considering which stages would have to have the KJB ban, like FD).
Planking = / = to indestructible for any character. True you can have an easier time surviving by planking (and by being a good planking character), and SD may end up promoting planking, but this is why it's good to learn how to beat a planker.

Also, I have a problem with you counter argument of 'No Johns'. If we applied this to other situations it would not work out, like planking and stalling. "Timer running out in you match against MKs? No Johns." No Johns isn't an argument.
Ok, i don't have to use that phrase, I use it cause that's the thing 'round here. I'll simply say that if you're skilled enough, you'll beat your opponent in under 8 minutes. If you can't, get better. It's ridiculous to think that MK should be expected to not be beatable in under 8 minutes. If he is, then the time limit needs to be raised.

Pfft, some characters can run the timer out AND kill you before you kill them. MK has an invincible upB, that pretty much destroys most approaches in a sudden death. Just walk, shield and upB. VICTORY!
Eh, shuttle loop can be beaten. Just have to get good at. I won't deny it's harder for some characters than others, but this would be why match up experience is key.

----------------------

Ok, great posts! Lots of things going on in here, mainly I'm seeing a thought or two on "what would happen if" ... so hopefully I've addressed these. SD implementation would require a drastic change in overall strategy, obviously. Some players actually bank on the 8 min timer, and their ability to draw out a match so that they auto-win. Also some replies have focused on the problem w/First Strike. First Strike is just that... who hits who first. Regardless of character or position, there's NO guaranteed hit right-off-the-bat. A spot dodge cancels many, a back-roll some, a jump, there's tons of different outcomes possible for all the various possible match ups, and spawn points. A lot more than I'd personally be willing to research :p The point is, it's not 100% always the same. Maybe lucas throws PK fire, and I spot dodge it. Maybe Ike quick-draws (aptly named move) but Marth counters! It may seem like the quintessential rock-paper-scissors, but uh... heh, that's what fighting games are ^^ and in this vein, there opens up TWO points in a match that are totally and technically unknown before they happen, the first move of the match, and the first move of SD (which is in essence a 2nd round fight, starting over at 300% each.)

As stated in the OP the only real reason I see this not being a good idea is the bob-omb issue... because I can imagine 2 competitors really giving it their all, all 8 min, then to SD and STILL being tied as the bob-ombs start to drop, and then insanity ensues, and yeah, in this case the computer will choose a victor by timing a bomb drop on whoever rolled back first or whatever. If there was somehow a way to shut those nasty buggers off, I think this would be an excellent alternative to the % system, which as pointed out, is flawed in its reasoning, especially when considering how many characters aren't KO'able until super high percents, vs the really light ones that get KO sometimes well below 100.
 

GunmasterLombardi

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lol getting a waft or Fsmash isn't really easy. Snake living forever doesn't help either. Oh and what if the wario had already tried Fsmash and the snake survived or if his waft wasn't fully charged.
My point being, the Wario should be able to kill off Snake if he/she managed to deal that much damage to Snake without taking anything the current stock, unless he/she had a muscle memorial breakdown. I'm going by your previous comment, which was not thought out well.
obviously some people here have never timed out a tough match and haven't quite realized that a REALLY good and challenging match can go on for a long time if both players are incredibly smart >.> Tbh, imo timing out doesn't mean the players were bad i think it means they were both excellent
The best players (at least in the matches I've watched) DO NOT hold their matches out all 8 minutes. Their playstyles actually have some consistency to the extent where they don't need to be all "BACK UP BACK UP BACK UP, HOLD ON...ok let's try this again."

Not saying that Brawl matches never take as long as 8 minutes, but quality players don't drag the match along since they actually know how to play the game on it's full competitive level. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3WhTS9hPUM:snake:

Edit: Sorry if the video doesn't show, but it was a match of Larry vs Dojo that lasted 7 minutes and Larry still managed to win. If you know the match up, running the clock is not mandatory.
 

GunmasterLombardi

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Are you serious? Do you even know how top players play? Have you seen DMG play against Snakes in Brinstar? You should feel bad for saying such a bad thing.

Oh yes, because Snake's ftilt and utilt don't shut those Wario approaches down at all (theoretically). And even more so, knowing Wario can miss the fart AND CAN ONLY BE USED WHEN A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME PASSES, but Snake can repeat the same attack over and over if he wants to.
Excuse double post.

So your saying Snake's tilts are not punishable...?

Also, show me a video for Wario vs Snake on Brinstar cause I didn't find anything in the past 4 minutes.:snake:
 

Chuee

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Ok, i don't have to use that phrase, I use it cause that's the thing 'round here. I'll simply say that if you're skilled enough, you'll beat your opponent in under 8 minutes. If you can't, get better. It's ridiculous to think that MK should be expected to not be beatable in under 8 minutes. If he is, then the time limit needs to be raised.
So now players like DEHF that got timed out are terrible players?
Kinda funny you say if you can't beat you're opponent in 8 minutes you need to get better. There are characters out there like mk and Wario that are good at stuff like this. Getting timed out has nothing to do with your skill level. Some characters just can't do hardly anything about planking.

EDIT: @Gunmaster
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV4N_F2QaPU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeXmXZmtv6w&feature=related
 

Vex514

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I've seen matches with M2K and other well known players both online and in person drag dangerously close to the time limit. It's not that they try to do it, just when both players represent such great prediction, blows get traded infrequently and KO moves are dodged indefinitely.
 

Kewkky

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This would be considered stalling. Neither character is approaching the other, they're just looking out for themselves, wasting precious time before the bob-ombs appear... and then when they do appear, they're just similarly trying to avoid the bob-ombs and not approaching one another. The punishment for first letting a match go the full 8 min, and then not being able to KO your opponent in SD before the bob-ombs, is then trying to finish the fight WITH the bob-ombs present. Moral of this story: Get better at finishing off your opponent in less than 8 minutes.
You're viewing players as if they were always rushing down their opponents, and this isn't the case in Brawl. A couple of top players don't approach at all, and stay back waiting for YOU to approach, to then punish you for that approach you just did. If bob-ombs start falling down, and both opponents are still ledgecamping, and they refuse to get off the ledges and fight, what would happen? They would spend an infinite amount of time on the ledges, and since no one has no edge over the other, then there is no victor, ever. You can't disqualify both players for THAT.


Ok, i don't have to use that phrase, I use it cause that's the thing 'round here. I'll simply say that if you're skilled enough, you'll beat your opponent in under 8 minutes. If you can't, get better. It's ridiculous to think that MK should be expected to not be beatable in under 8 minutes. If he is, then the time limit needs to be raised.
MK, Wario, TL, Falco, DDD... Any character that has an outstanding way of running the timer is able to run it out if given the chance. Of course, at top levels of play the list gets smaller, but it's not just MK that can run the timer at ALL levels of play... And raising the timer will only make tourneys take longer, and make campers force others to rush in order to hurry a match up, which is what campers want.

Eh, shuttle loop can be beaten. Just have to get good at. I won't deny it's harder for some characters than others, but this would be why match up experience is key.
No, it CAN'T be beaten in a Sudden Death! Don't you see? If MK walks and watches the opponent waiting for a chance to shield/evade then upB, the opponent is already doomed! Some characters have long ranged moves, but what if the MK knows this and is ready for when the opponent starts the move, powershields, then does whatever? They don't even need to shield if they wanna do upBs, since they have lots of invincibility frames. A single extension of the opponent's hurtbox = defeat! With just 1 hit determining the victor, a character like MK would win theoretically (and the majority of the time in practice), no matter what you say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV4N_F2QaPU Wario on Brinstar. Granted it's not a time out, but if DMG would namesearch and drop in here to say how it is for all Snakes, he would say so as well.

So your saying Snake's tilts are not punishable...?
In a Sudden death, Snake pretty much will obliterate Wario. He doesn't even need to tilt, he can just DACUS to hit the Wario as he lands, as well as drop grenades/C4/Claymore everywhere before the bob-ombs start appearing.
 

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Kewkky saved me the trouble of finding that Brinstar match :p

I honestly dont agree with this at all. Its mostly been said why though.
 

Chuee

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Sudden Death is based on whoever gets the first hit.
Let's say a character camps another character and 1 character beats the others approaches.
The character that has to approach has 2 options.
1. Can not approach, if the other characters projectile doesn't kill, and hope the bombs will kill the other player first
2. Approach and die

SD is stupid and gives certain characters unfair advantages against others and bases the winner randomely with bombs.
 

GunmasterLombardi

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Sudden Death is based on whoever gets the first hit.
Theoretically, but a lot of jabs and throws don't kill. Again, poorly thought out post.
2. Approach and die.
Better said than done. It is possible to approach w/o punishment if you know who you're dealing w/ and can put the tools you have to good use.

SD is stupid and gives certain characters unfair advantages against others and bases the winner randomely with bombs.
You can re-read my last reply. IMO SD can have some depth but we turn away at it so quickly and refuse to apply any testing or simply playing tournies w/ it. Maybe you have but I wasn't there...:snake:
 

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You mention how a character's "shortcoming" is that they can land multiple hits to build damage, but it takes longer to get that kill. In Sudden Death that character no longer has that "shortcoming", while the heavy character loses its benefit of being heavy and then gets punished for having overall slower moves.
 

GunmasterLombardi

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You mention how a character's "shortcoming" is that they can land multiple hits to build damage, but it takes longer to get that kill. In Sudden Death that character no longer has that "shortcoming", while the heavy character loses its benefit of being heavy and then gets punished for having overall slower moves.
This would be legit if there weren't a number of heavies that had fast enough moves that would kill in SD (Snake's ftilt, Wolf's jab combo, even Ganon's jab if the opponent has bad spacing):snake:
 

DanGR

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This arbitrary rule would encourage me to circle camp even more.

I like it.
 

Kewkky

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Ganon can do a DownB Surprise! and the opponent will have to eat it if it truly was used at the most random moment. C.Falcon would also be able to do the same thing...


... I still dislike mandatory Sudden Deaths, and don't think that I will like them. Kirby would immediately lose as well, since his attacks don't have as much range as others' attacks.
 

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The point that was made was in a 2 stock to 1 stock advantage where the clock times out right after it becomes 0% 1 stock to 150% 1 stock. How is it fair in that situation? You were killing them just fine you just didn't have enough time to finish that last piece off and because of that they suddenly decide to give him 0% as well to make it fair? Can't let you do that
The point i was making is that if you don't want that to happen you should try to kill them instead of planking whenever you get a lead.

But seriously this won't go anywhere so...............
 

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Then you shouldn't have taken so long! That's kinda the whole point of this. If 8 minutes isn't enough to resolve a match, then SD will. Either that or start making matches 12 minutes. With that, though, I fear the same thing could happen, people just camp/plank/be gay for LONGER periods of time, and it'll still end up in either deciding victor by % or SD.
Given the current rule set, 8 minutes is enough time to resolve a match, as it is ended afterwards with a victory for either player. Adding in SD only makes the matches take even longer.

One of the main purposes of time limits is so that tournaments do not run overtime. Arguing that matches should become 12 minutes long as opposed to 8 would prevent many tournaments from running as smootly as they do now.

Another flaw is what happens if 2 MKs for example should make it to SD on FD. Should either one approach, they are in a disadvantaged poisition, especially if one MK is on the ledge, with a 2 frame attack (up air) at their dispossal that kills, and the opponent is right above them. The addition of Bomb-ombs to this means that leaving the ledge will make you even more vulnerable than staying on it, as you can safely avoid them on the ledge, but are vulnerable on stage. The lack of a timer in this also means that the matches will not end until one player gets tired of the match. And should either of these opponents be DQ'd for 'stalling', it would be for avoiding an unfavorable position, and thus either player being DQ'd would be unfair, and if both are DQ'd, then the next opponent in the bracket would recieve a by, giving the next person an unfair advantage.

Basically, this rule would mean that tournaments would not be able to run as efficiantly, due to the large(r) amount of time need for matches with SD, especially ones that resort to planking in an attempt to avoid a bad situation.
 
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