Sucks that Smash is better without items

[Diddy Kong]

Having more fun without items? That's what maturing does to you.

 

[Xelrog]

I loved the items in Melee. They offered utility without breaking the game. I miss the fan's rapid whacks and throwing potential and the umbrella's range/recovery utility.

There are too many now that are just too powerful. Instead of enhancing the fight, they replace it. A match with items on is a race for who can reach the item first. That person wins.

 

[JiggyNinja]

I find it stupid that Bob-Ombs dont damage the thrower anymore when they hit a close enemy. Even less counterplay.

This x1,000. And it's not just Bob-omb, all of the explosives (excluding Motion Sensor Bomb) don't hurt you if you throw them. Explosives should not be safe.

That goes for Bomber too. I think it would be a better item if it was just as powerful, but activated quicker and the user wasn't immune to it. You get to have your field-killing blast, but you have to eat the hit too.

To me, it's counterbalanced pretty well for the low ammo count and narrow hitbox.

The Staff isn't really worth anything outside those "the enemy avoids combat" Spirit battles because any opponent that's moving around is a pain in the ass to hit.

 

[RepStar]

There are too many now that are just too powerful. Instead of enhancing the fight, they replace it. A match with items on is a race for who can reach the item first. That person wins.

Exactly

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I find it funny how people here are obsessing too much about finding proper counter play and having a fair fight when items are involved. If you are playing with items in the first place, it's not a match you are supposed to be taking too seriously. I guess that's what a hyper competitive mindset eventually does for you.

I know that there are OP assists like Tiki, Zero and Rathalos, but I love every second of them when I'm the one who summoned them. If someone else gets them, I just accept it and deal with it. I know that the Death Scythe gives you a cheap kill, but I love how it feels when you disintegrate your opponent from existence. If I'm the one on the receiving end, I just say "oh well". And I prefer the safer explosions as I'm less prone to get accidentally caught in my own bomb. And as mentioned before, this game gives you options, so just disable the items you dislike.

 

[Xelrog]

And as mentioned before, this game gives you options, so just disable the items you dislike.

My complaint is that that's now most of them, and there were more items that I enjoyed playing with in previous installments.

I think it's a fallacy to think that just because a game isn't going maximum competitive settings, that there's no such thing as balance. It's the difference between playing poker and spinning a roulette wheel. There are shades of balance; all items are not created equal. Surely any competitive player who believes in tiers for characters must acknowledge that inherent imbalances exist in other aspects of a game as well, no?

It's not really about taking it seriously or not taking it seriously, it's about what we find fun. If you find the items you're describing fun, bully. Others don't.

On a related note, I feel like the devs have taken this mindset with levels over the years as well. Where once we had more balanced levels with less intrusive gimmicks, nowadays they assume that there are only two categories of players: those who love maximum gimmick and RNG, and competitive players who will only play on Final Destination. As a result, the newer levels have introduced some VERY intrusive elements that I'm certainly not a fan of.

 

[Ze Diglett]

There are too many now that are just too powerful. Instead of enhancing the fight, they replace it. A match with items on is a race for who can reach the item first. That person wins.

This is the main problem I have with the items in this game. Even when I turn off overtly broken **** like the Beetle and the Star, the match still inevitably devolves into an RNG fest of "who do the best items spawn closest to", with the other person(s) just getting tossed around like a ragdoll most of the match. I've had it happen so many times that me and a friend are just playing some casual 1v1's, then an AT or something spawns right next to them, they pick it up and surprise, it's Tiki; she blocks me off from half the stage for about 20 seconds as she does, and in that time, a Poke Ball spawns next to the person who already has an actual fire-breathing dragon playing the game for them, they get something ridiculous like Keldeo, rinse and repeat until I inevitably lose and/or SD out of exasperation. You can say what you will about how items aren't "supposed" to be balanced, but not being able to play the game for an extended period of time isn't fun for anyone. The items in this game turn Smash into a roulette, and while you could argue that's the point from a reductive point of view, I couldn't say the same about the items in previous games. (Some of the ATs in particular are just impossible to play around this time, like Rathalos and the aforementioned Tiki, and it's those ones that ruin what's otherwise an incredibly fun and imaginative item. At the very least, they should not be able to spawn while another AT is already in play as it just puts the other player at an unplayable disadvantage.) Sure, you can turn off the unfair ones, but at that point, you're better off not playing with items at all since so many of them are just instant "you win!" buttons. Believe it or not, the point of items is not - or at least, shouldn't be - to turn the game into a complete diceroll. I use them to spice up the mundanity of an otherwise vanilla experience, but Smash Ultimate's items don't really let me do that. It's either full-on Chuck E. Cheese bull**** or back-to-back FD 1v1's, both of which stale very quickly in my taste.

 

[RepStar]

I find it funny how people here are obsessing too much about finding proper counter play and having a fair fight when items are involved. If you are playing with items in the first place, it's not a match you are supposed to be taking too seriously. I guess that's what a hyper competitive mindset eventually does for you.

I know that there are OP assists like Tiki, Zero and Rathalos, but I love every second of them when I'm the one who summoned them. If someone else gets them, I just accept it and deal with it. I know that the Death Scythe gives you a cheap kill, but I love how it feels when you disintegrate your opponent from existence. If I'm the one on the receiving end, I just say "oh well". And I prefer the safer explosions as I'm less prone to get accidentally caught in my own bomb. And as mentioned before, this game gives you options, so just disable the items you dislike.

Xelrog said it best if, you still don't get (or find it funny) why some of us arent fans of items this time.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

My complaint is that that's now most of them, and there were more items that I enjoyed playing with in previous installments.

I think it's a fallacy to think that just because a game isn't going maximum competitive settings, that there's no such thing as balance. It's the difference between playing poker and spinning a roulette wheel. There are shades of balance; all items are not created equal. Surely any competitive player who believes in tiers for characters must acknowledge that inherent imbalances exist in other aspects of a game as well, no?

It's not really about taking it seriously or not taking it seriously, it's about what we find fun. If you find the items you're describing fun, bully. Others don't.

On a related note, I feel like the devs have taken this mindset with levels over the years as well. Where once we had more balanced levels with less intrusive gimmicks, nowadays they assume that there are only two categories of players: those who love maximum gimmick and RNG, and competitive players who will only play on Final Destination. As a result, the newer levels have introduced some VERY intrusive elements that I'm certainly not a fan of.

...Then again, that's why the item switch exists.

I agree that all items are not created equal. Which is why you turn off the ones you consider most toxic to yourself and leave the others on, while also tuning down the frequency if necessary.
I find it a bad idea to have assist trophies and poke balls on in a casual 1v1 battle. With no other targets on the field, the enemy AI is going to make your life miserable. With 3 or more players its far more manageable.
Likewise, in a 1v1 match, I would disable hammers, smart bombs, tomatos, stars, the timer, hearts, the dragoon and daybreak parts, etc. while leaving most battering items on.

Item matches don't have to turn into games of diceroll. They won't if you don't let them. I just find it surprising how these options completely go over other people's heads.

 

[JiggyNinja]

And I prefer the safer explosions as I'm less prone to get accidentally caught in my own bomb.

I will never agree with this opinion. The danger is supposed to be the most fun part of using an explosive. You're holding massive power, but it can backfire on you if you're stupid with it. Safe explosions are just absurd, especially when you're able to jump rght into a Smart Bomb explosion and tack of a few extra hits while your opponent is locked in hitstun.

 

[channel_KYX]

I miss the fan's rapid whacks and throwing potential and the umbrella's range/recovery utility.

Now that you mention them, I dearly miss the simpler battering items... Umbrella was awesome; did decent damage and had some added utility. Not to forget the odd angle when you threw it.

I find it funny how people here are obsessing too much about finding proper counter play and having a fair fight when items are involved. If you are playing with items in the first place, it's not a match you are supposed to be taking too seriously.

There ist a difference between taking something too seriously and feeling powerless to affect the outcome of the match. I like playing with items, but explosives were massively buffed (which I don't understand) and the insta-kill items are just unimaginative. I am actually okay with Pokéballs and assist trophies (except the new Exeggutor; thanks for not letting me play the game for half a minute).

As a result, the newer levels have introduced some VERY intrusive elements that I'm certainly not a fan of.

I don't wish to devolve this thread into a stage discussion, but I find that statement a bit harsh. I like most of the newer stages. Some decisions are questionable (like flying men in Magicant or the stages that change the way the game is played (Great Cave Offensive/Wrecking Crew)), but all in all, I can't complain.

 

[Xelrog]

...Then again, that's why the item switch exists.

I can't turn on items that no longer exist in the game. Please let me know when you hack the fan and umbrella back in.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I will never agree with this opinion. The danger is supposed to be the most fun part of using an explosive. You're holding massive power, but it can backfire on you if you're stupid with it. Safe explosions are just absurd, especially when you're able to jump rght into a Smart Bomb explosion and tack of a few extra hits while your opponent is locked in hitstun.

I understand.
I will still stand by my own opinion in this regard though. One potential reasoning I see behind their decision was possibly because since it is now possible to have 8 players at once on the same screen, explosives become even trickier to use properly as you have less space and stray hits will still set them off indiscriminately.

I can't turn on items that no longer exist in the game. Please let me know when you hack the fan and umbrella back in.

I also won't understand why they remove some of them. Although, the fan was kinda broken in Brawl.
Even then, there should be some items, old or new, that you may enjoy.

 

[meleebrawler]

I understand.
I will still stand by my own opinion in this regard though. One potential reasoning I see behind their decision was possibly because since it is now possible to have 8 players at once on the same screen, explosives become even trickier to use properly as you have less space and stray hits will still set them off indiscriminately.



I also won't understand why they remove some of them. Although, the fan was kinda broken in Brawl.
Even then, there should be some items, old or new, that you may enjoy.

Well, I can guess for a few at least.

Red Shell: Reflector jank giving it abusive damage.
Flipper: Inferior in every way to the bumper. Also now shows up as stage hazard in Balloon Fight.
Parasol: Can't say for sure between Melee and Brawl, but I never found it too useful. And we now have Super Leaf plus the jetpack granting far superior hovering capabilities.

 

[Goddamn_Angela]

I once had someone argue with me by saying that items are good because it helps less skilled players make a comeback against more skilled players.

I laughed and told them that the skilled player is more likely to get the items, which in turn allows them to control more of the battle and thus exacerbate their lead. Especially Assists and Pokeballs.

Items are for funsies, if you find chaos and one-sided matches to be fun.

 

[Soniult]

I have more fun playing ffas with no items and, stage hazards on instead of both. The items in this game seem "off". They're not fun to use/play with and, they're over-the-top and/or just blatantly OP that its not even OP in a fun way but, more-so just in a "wtf" way. Its a shame because, they were so good and fun in brawl. In this game they actually seem out of place and, a nuisance. And, the assist trophies seem more like playable characters than npcs; Knuckles could've easily been playable. The items are just off this time around.

Knuckles makes the most sense to be in smash. I mean, he has fist and he is strong enough to punch the freakin ground and cause a volcano to explode (Sonic Boom Intro) so yea some trophies should be fighters.

 

[Spiny Top]

The only issue I have with items is the drop rate seems way too high. I assume in online quick play “medium” frequency is used, which for some reason is way too much. “Low”, which you can use for custom games feels just right.

 

[lucasla]

you just need to configure the items in a way you like. You dont need to play with the default items eneabled.

 

[cxchu_]

the instant kill items are a bit too much. There used to be like one in each game now there's like four of them.
How is that fun? At least with the dragoon and day break you have to collect them which turns the match into a fun little scramble for the pieces.
However, some of these items purely exist to be just salt inducing (which can be fun).
Wanna piss someone off? Kill them at zero with a gust of wind.
Bob-bombs spawning on top of you while you're performing an attack is just painful too.

random fun is great and all but there's nothing fun about being destroyed by items an entire round.
The more engaging items, ones that give an edge or change a characters dynamic, those are great

There's so many instant kill items in Ultimate, but may I remind us that Hero is literally just an item in himself. Look at his Down B Command Selection. Thwack/Whack, Magic Burst, Psyche Up + Oomph + FS, reflecting a Kafrizz over and over until someone's Bounce/Franklin Badge breaks. All four of those have the potential to kill some characters at 0%. Especially light ones, like Pichu or Squirtle.

 

[Saikyoshi]

While the item lineup is far from ideal (I want the Cracker Launcher and Fan back, and the Beetle and Boss Galaga can just go straight to hell), I turn off the ones I don't like and keep their spawn rate to low in casual matches.

And in friendlies with otherwise competitive rules, I keep food and only food on just to discourage camping when playing on non-legal stages.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

I loved the items in Melee. They offered utility without breaking the game. I miss the fan's rapid whacks and throwing potential and the umbrella's range/recovery utility.

There are too many now that are just too powerful. Instead of enhancing the fight, they replace it. A match with items on is a race for who can reach the item first. That person wins.

I'm still pissed they got rid of the Parasol and the Paper Fan.

Hell, I even miss the Flipper!

Don't tell me the Items became an afterthought in Ultimate.