Sucks that Smash is better without items

RepStar

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#1
I have more fun playing ffas with no items and, stage hazards on instead of both. The items in this game seem "off". They're not fun to use/play with and, they're over-the-top and/or just blatantly OP that its not even OP in a fun way but, more-so just in a "wtf" way. Its a shame because, they were so good and fun in brawl. In this game they actually seem out of place and, a nuisance. And, the assist trophies seem more like playable characters than npcs; Knuckles could've easily been playable. The items are just off this time around.
 

JiggyNinja

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#4
Some of them are terrible, especially when they pop up in a CPU battle. Special mention goes to Ramblin Evil Mushroom, which totally **** you up but does nothing to a CPU. But those are only a small few.

But so many more of them are just a blast to play with. Most of the battering items are great. Super Launch Star is fantastic. For my messing around games I keep about 2/3s of them turned on.

My biggest gripe with the items is that bombs no longer hurt the player that threw them. Not even the Smart Bomb! Something that powerful should be a little bit dangerous to use. But no, you can just pick up a Bob-omb and throw it at your feet for a perfectly safe explosion. The danger they used to have made them more balanced and fun. With how safe they are they're just OP and cheap. Motion Sensor Bomb is the only one that keeps that element of danger.
 

FartyParty

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#6
I agree that the design of the items in this game is pretty wtf with some items, like the Beetle, that are silly overpowered. Also, there are too many total items and some of them (assist trophies and pokeballs) have too many internal varieties.
 

RepStar

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#8
I'm just going to disagree with everything you've said.

Except for the items being fun in brawl. They were good there and they're still good here.
Nah. Theyre only good when theyre off. Thats why "all skill levels" arenas barely to never have them on. Even so called "casuals" don't like them.
 
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Christian_CAO

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#9
the instant kill items are a bit too much. There used to be like one in each game now there's like four of them.
How is that fun? At least with the dragoon and day break you have to collect them which turns the match into a fun little scramble for the pieces.
However, some of these items purely exist to be just salt inducing (which can be fun).
Wanna piss someone off? Kill them at zero with a gust of wind.
Bob-bombs spawning on top of you while you're performing an attack is just painful too.

random fun is great and all but there's nothing fun about being destroyed by items an entire round.
The more engaging items, ones that give an edge or change a characters dynamic, those are great
 

JiggyNinja

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#10
I thought the smart bomb can damage the user too?

I absolutely hate the bullet bill item. Thing that raises you up off the stage gets honorable mention.
It doesn't damage you if you throw it. It will damage you if you detonate it with an attack.
Nah. Theyre only good when theyre off. Thats why "all skill levels" arenas barely to never have them on. Even so called "casuals" don't like them.
Speak for yourself. I love most of the items in this game. True they mess up matches of skill, but most of them are great for some wet and wild chaos.
 

RepStar

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#11
It doesn't damage you if you throw it. It will damage you if you detonate it with an attack.

Speak for yourself. I love most of the items in this game. True they mess up matches of skill, but most of them are great for some wet and wild chaos.
Speaking for the tons of arenas i see with no items. So much so, that i forget theyre in the game. How many "all skill levels" arenas do you join where items are on? Even with quick matches, items are rare. And its not about skill per-se because im not talking about "competitive play" ; im speaking generally. That wet and wild (idk how you thought that as an analogy) could be had with just stage hazards and the abilities characters have in FFA's. The arena matches i host with "all skill levels" people leave a lot faster with items on compared to off.

Edit: why doesnt the smart-bomb hurt the thrower too? Guess they had to make that OP somehow too huh. See what i mean, not fun.

Edit: u know what ill try this again with arenas and items and see how long it lasts. If items really are still the bomb. "All skill levels" because "anything goes" and "playground" are probably trash parties.
 
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Ryu Myuutsu

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#12
How are the items out of place in this game? That doesn't make sense.
And how have they never been a nuance? They'd been like that since Smash 64.

Item battles have always been chaotic, this isn't something that is exclusive to recent iterations. There are more one hit items this time around but you can just turn those off.
 

TMNTSSB4

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#15
Doubt its unpopular. Tried arena matches with items, ppl backed out like crazy.
Well I never said it was unpopular, and as for the people who decided to leave arenas with items that’s on them (they can check whether or not there’s items before they play a game). I’ve held multiple arena battles with items on and it’d take hours for people to decide to leave (or I have to shut it down due to being tired), all depends on which person can handle the items to have fun and which are more of a competitive player (then there’s the people inbetween)
 
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#16
Some of them are terrible, especially when they pop up in a CPU battle. Special mention goes to Ramblin Evil Mushroom, which totally **** you up but does nothing to a CPU. But those are only a small few.

But so many more of them are just a blast to play with. Most of the battering items are great. Super Launch Star is fantastic. For my messing around games I keep about 2/3s of them turned on.

My biggest gripe with the items is that bombs no longer hurt the player that threw them. Not even the Smart Bomb! Something that powerful should be a little bit dangerous to use. But no, you can just pick up a Bob-omb and throw it at your feet for a perfectly safe explosion. The danger they used to have made them more balanced and fun. With how safe they are they're just OP and cheap. Motion Sensor Bomb is the only one that keeps that element of danger.
Yeah that mushroom is bs you can’t move at all while you’re being attacked, it can hit multiple people and reverses their controls, what was nintendo thinking?
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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#17
Yeah that mushroom is bs you can’t move at all while you’re being attacked, it can hit multiple people and reverses their controls, what was nintendo thinking?
That is an issue that lies not on the mushroom but on the stupidly good AI on this game who can capitalize on most items. Besides, it's funny to reverse your opponent's controls.
 

Christian_CAO

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#18
honestly, item control is integral to the games learning curve for certain characters, to the extent that I'd welcome a Green shells only match.
Green Shells are easily the most fair and most competitively viable item.
They're so versatile.
Maybe having food on as well...
shells and food sounds good to me
 
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lucasla

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#19
I only hate a few of them, like Boss Galaga and Pitfall, but the vast majority I have no problem at all. The only thing I dont like is when items dominate the match, specially when there are too many Pokemons and Assist Trophies, so I just play with items in a Low rate.
 

TheDuke54

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#24
Items online can be annoying. They should had random online have only two settings for items. None or all. None of that only assists on high crap. That just encourages bad sportsmanship.
 

RepStar

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#26
TBH the problem is only assist trophies and to a lesser extent pokeballs.

Regular items aren't bad (though without is better)
Yea, they arent bad(but they were better), they're just not fun. Idk its that ive gotten more competitive over the years(doubt it) or that smash just changed alot since brawl but, items are annoying to me too now. The games(FFA/Team battle/Time/Stock) just better without them imo.
 

TheDuke54

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#27
It doesn't help that some of the assists from the old games are manageable and then you get something like Tiki or that big dragon. It can be fun, sure, but some of those large assists are just ridiculous. And they last way longer then they should.
 

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#29
They got really out of control with the items in 4 and Ultimate. A lot of them are too chaotic and unbalanced like the flag and a good portion of the assists. Brawl was an unbalanced mess competitively, but looking back, it becomes apparent that it did a lot of things right, especially the items.
 

TheDuke54

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#30
The flags are alright. It gets out of hand when that's the only thing the online user has for items and at high. Then the entire arena is nothing but every player trying to get their stock or hits up. It becomes more of a chore then something to do for fun. Same thing with some of the assists. Brawl and Smash4 had decent assists that were small enough to avoid even if they went on for too long. Like that little boy who would change into different animals. His assist went on for way too long, but at least he was small enough to avoid.

Now you get these big butt dragons that have long duration and huge hitboxes. And you can't really focus on your opponent and avoid the them at the same time. So then another assist drops and they get that one to. I feel like if there's already an assist on the field, another shouldn't span to avoid bloodbaths like this.
 

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#31
The flags are alright. It gets out of hand when that's the only thing the online user has for items and at high. Then the entire arena is nothing but every player trying to get their stock or hits up. It becomes more of a chore then something to do for fun.
That's the problem though. You don't have this issue with rulesets like all bombs, pokeballs only, or final smashes. Those are actually fun. The item itself is inherently flawed and people will try to abuse it just to be annoying, especially when it comes up in quickplay, but I suppose that's also quickplay's fault.
 
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Opossum

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#32
TBH the problem is only assist trophies and to a lesser extent pokeballs.

Regular items aren't bad (though without is better)
I'd definitely say some of the normal items have their fair share of problems as well.

The Gust Bellows are basically a free stock against foes trying to recover.
Death's Scythe is an automatic death over 100% with no counterplay.
Bob-Ombs and the Home Run Bat are items with incredible damage and knockback output with very few drawbacks, if any, in using them.
The Super Star literally grants invincibility.
Certain Assist Trophies and Pokémon like Nightmare or Palkia render the game almost unplayable, while most others give you another opponent to keep tabs on. The latter also extends to the Galaga and Beetle items.
Dragoon and Daybreak pieces encourage spawn camping to collect the pieces for low-risk, high-reward KOs.
Beast Ball has little to no counterplay.
The Staff promotes excessive camping due to its range dictating its power.
Ramblin' Evil Mushroom's screwy interface shenanigans make the game unplayable.
Timer can lead to situations with no viable counterplay due to it being Witch Time with more duration and no drawbacks, ensuring your death.
Hammers and Golden Hammers are way too strong.
And of course, certain Final Smashes are way too overpowered even in Meter Mode, which is supposed to be a weaker version. It overcentralizes the game around which characters have a one-hit KO Final Smash, as seen by various Final Smash Meter-enabled tournament events.
 

KingofPhantoms

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#33
Meh, I don't think they're supposed to be fair, exactly. They're in solo gamemodes and casual modes for a reason.

Starting from Brawl, I've only disliked them in online with anyone battles since I typically take that mode a little more seriously, as I really want to put my skills to the test there and see how well I hold up against other actual players. And I'd prefer to enjoy that same kind of battle without interruption from randomly generated items that can mess with me or any of my opponents, especially when certain items could easily prove to be the key to victory, if used right. So I actually do get where you're coming from, thanks to my own experiences.

Still, I would personally consider looking at items from a different angle and not taking them too seriously whenever they're on. They're just there to cause chaos and raise the stakes of the match, making the round take unexpected turns that raise the stakes and turn a standard fight into a chaotic war. The randomness can mess with a match completely, and some are almost game-breaking, but that's why they aren't meant to be taken too seriously. They're there for entirely casual play and to (usually) assist in some single player modes. Certain online matches aside, they shouldn't be that troublesome to deal with. If you reconsider your opinion, and ultimately still dislike how they've been handled in this game later, then yeah, maybe items in this game just aren't for you, after all. But I would definitely suggest reconsidering the matter, personally.
 

Narizmatador

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#34
Yeah, items were great and actually fun to use sometimes from 64-Brawl. 4 just added too much that ruined the little balance that there was in items.
 

RepStar

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#35
Meh, I don't think they're supposed to be fair, exactly. They're in solo gamemodes and casual modes for a reason.

Starting from Brawl, I've only disliked them in online with anyone battles since I typically take that mode a little more seriously, as I really want to put my skills to the test there and see how well I hold up against other actual players. And I'd prefer to enjoy that same kind of battle without interruption from randomly generated items that can mess with me or any of my opponents, especially when certain items could easily prove to be the key to victory, if used right. So I actually do get where you're coming from, thanks to my own experiences.

Still, I would personally consider looking at items from a different angle and not taking them too seriously whenever they're on. They're just there to cause chaos and raise the stakes of the match, making the round take unexpected turns that raise the stakes and turn a standard fight into a chaotic war. The randomness can mess with a match completely, and some are almost game-breaking, but that's why they aren't meant to be taken too seriously. They're there for entirely casual play and to (usually) assist in some single player modes. Certain online matches aside, they shouldn't be that troublesome to deal with. If you reconsider your opinion, and ultimately still dislike how they've been handled in this game later, then yeah, maybe items in this game just aren't for you, after all. But I would definitely suggest reconsidering the matter, personally.
I want to say that i just got older the past 10 years and cant tolerate them anymore, plus my irritability and anger issues BUT, I geniunely think items in this game are done bad and, they just arent for me. So , i agree with your second-to-last sentence. Believe me, ive tried to give items a chance in this game and, they just annoy and irritate me. It sucks because, it didnt use to be like this with me and smash but, i skipped the wii u one so...maybe i wouldve felt the same with that game too. The most fun i had with items in this game was setting all bomb items to high in arena matches and, guess what? Ppl backed out. If anyone has any suggestions for items im all ears. Maybe creating an entire rule setting based around particular items (Bombs , 10 stock, 1.5 knockback) would be great, idk. This game has a looot of ways to play.
 

soviet prince

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#36
I want to say that i just got older the past 10 years and cant tolerate them anymore, plus my irritability and anger issues BUT, I geniunely think items in this game are done bad and, they just arent for me. So , i agree with your second-to-last sentence. Believe me, ive tried to give items a chance in this game and, they just annoy and irritate me. It sucks because, it didnt use to be like this with me and smash but, i skipped the wii u one so...maybe i wouldve felt the same with that game too. The most fun i had with items in this game was setting all bomb items to high in arena matches and, guess what? Ppl backed out. If anyone has any suggestions for items im all ears. Maybe creating an entire rule setting based around particular items (Bombs , 10 stock, 1.5 knockback) would be great, idk. This game has a looot of ways to play.
you got older??? I got younger the last ten years I knew something was off about me :p
 

Manonymous

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#37
honestly, item control is integral to the games learning curve for certain characters, to the extent that I'd welcome a Green shells only match.
Green Shells are easily the most fair and most competitively viable item.
They're so versatile.
Maybe having food on as well...
shells and food sounds good to me
Did you really write this post so you could make this joke :) ?
 

channel_KYX

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#38
Bob-Ombs and the Home Run Bat are items with incredible damage and knockback output with very few drawbacks, if any, in using them.
I find it stupid that Bob-Ombs dont damage the thrower anymore when they hit a close enemy. Even less counterplay.

Beast Ball has little to no counterplay.
Gotta disagree on that one. Jump/fastfall at the correct time and the ball not only misses you but falls to the ground for you to be used. It's a good item.

The Staff promotes excessive camping due to its range dictating its power.
To me, it's counterbalanced pretty well for the low ammo count and narrow hitbox.

Timer can lead to situations with no viable counterplay due to it being Witch Time with more duration and no drawbacks, ensuring your death.
I hate the timer but mostly for the reason that it feels like backfiring 90% when I pick it up. Enemy picks it, I'm slowed. I pick it, I'm slowed. Adds even more random to the randomness.

Hammers and Golden Hammers are way too strong.
... aaand they got buffed, since their wielder can now discard them when falling down a cliff, so you can't even turn the tides. It's no medium risk, high reward, but very low risk.

I agree with the majority of the rest you said.
 
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