Stop Momentum Cancelling with Dair (How to Do It Correctly With Fox)

[Zhamy]

Uair is better than Dair for momentum cancelling because it ends slightly faster. In fact, Dair is worse than airdodging.

Quick rundown on momentum cancelling.
There are 2 basic actions.

Action 1 (A1) can either be
a) Air Dodge
b) Aerial Attack

Action 2 (A2) is
a) Double Jump
b) Fast Fall
c) Special Attack

The basic idea is A1 gets you out of hitsun, A2 is what actually reduces your momentum. This means that the faster A1 ends, the more quickly you can momentum cancel.

The preferred method, most of the time, is to Uair (A1) -> Fast Fall (A2). This is because you can fast fall while inputting the aerial, and Fox doesn't have any fancy buckets and skull bashes and **** to let him do it faster.

Here's some in depth-ish stuff you should read so you can understand all of this.

The # of frames before a character can do either of A1 (This is universal)
a) Air Dodge = 14F
b) Aerial Attack = 26F

Fox's Air Dodge lasts for 49F, so 49F+14F = 63F

That's over 1 second. However, the number by itself doesn't tell us much. We have to compare it to the time it takes for an aerial attack to finish.

So 63F - 26F = 37F

If Fox has an aerial attack that is less than 37F, he is better off using an aerial than air dodging. (GUESS WHAT? HE DOES!) If he had an aerial that was exactly 37F, he'd still be better off using the aerial because it gives him the option of fastfalling.

This is the reason why MK, despite being so light, is able to survive so long - Uair finishes in 13F, comes out on 2F. Fox is kind of like MK in that Uair is almost always the best option. Here's some more numbers to compare (time it takes for each move to finish):

Target = <37F

Fair = 49F
Dair = 49F
Bair = 48F
Nair = 41F

Uair = 35F

Fair Total Time = 75F
Dair Total Time = 75F
Bair Total Time = 74F
Nair Total Time = 67F
Air Dodge Total Time = 63F
Uair Total Time = 61F

Yes, Uair is the only move to end shorter than the target time. Coincidentally, you don't have to worry about getting launched sideways most of the time and trying to adjust A2 - it's still Uair. (Some characters are better off airdodging).

If you get launched upward/diagonally upward: Uair -> Fast Fall
(Situational) If you get launched sideways: Uair -> Double Jump

The reason why you want to double jump in that case is because you're not afraid of the vertical trajectory killing you, but the horizontal one, and you want to recover above stage, etc. Use your judgment.

But Zhamy I can't DI and momentum cancel at the same time like that it's hard waaaaah

...

Screw you; I'll explain common DI situations some other time when I'm angry and it's way too early in the morning for my own good.

 

[Red Arremer]

Nice one, Zhamy. Very nice. :O

Never would've expected that DAir is so bad for momentum cancelling.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I am curious though...

There are attacks that you can Fastfall in the middle of the attack... Dair is one of these... you can FF while Dairing out of hitstun...

At this point, why does it matter when the move ends? or are you saying the fastest poit you can FF in the aerial, rather than how long the aerial lasts?

Also, I've found that Fair, while not being as good about stopping momentum, can actually save you from bad DI by adding a bit of floatiness, and raising the point where you end up a slight bit... making a mostly horizontal attack slightly more vertical.

 

[Conviction]

I am curious though...

There are attacks that you can Fastfall in the middle of the attack... Dair is one of these... you can FF while Dairing out of hitstun...

At this point, why does it matter when the move ends? or are you saying the fastest poit you can FF in the aerial, rather than how long the aerial lasts?

Also, I've found that Fair, while not being as good about stopping momentum, can actually save you from bad DI by adding a bit of floatiness, and raising the point where you end up a slight bit... making a mostly horizontal attack slightly more vertical.

Well for safety I guess it's best to use the move the ends the fastest against goodedguarders, I like the sound of that Fair thing. But doesn't Shine help us at all I mean it comes at frame 4 and I'm for sure it doesn't last as long our aerials and also it gives a little vertical boost..... maybe it's just brawl physics >.>

 

[Jenkins]

wahhhhhhhhhhh but cstick Dair already makes you fastfall wahhhhhhhh

when sent upwards, DI to left/right + swtiching right hand to up on cstick +switching left hand too down on analog stick is to hard wahhhhhhhh

w/e.

I'm just stoopidz *cries*

 

[Fenrir VII]

Well for safety I guess it's best to use the move the ends the fastest against goodedguarders, I like the sound of that Fair thing. But doesn't Shine help us at all I mean it comes at frame 4 and I'm for sure it doesn't last as long our aerials and also it gives a little vertical boost..... maybe it's just brawl physics >.>

You can't use B-moves while in the initial hitstun... so an attack or airdodge is the fastest way to regain control over your momentum... after one of those, I would suppose Shine might act as a sort of stopper, but I can't say for sure.

wahhhhhhhhhhh but cstick Dair already makes you fastfall wahhhhhhhh

when sent upwards, DI to left/right + swtiching right hand to up on cstick +switching left hand too down on analog stick is to hard wahhhhhhhh

I kinda hope this isn't directed at me...

 

[Jenkins]

I kinda hope this isn't directed at me...

no fenrir when sent upwards i dair.

I was just complaining

 

[Conviction]

You can't use B-moves while in the initial hitstun... so an attack or airdodge is the fastest way to regain control over your momentum... after one of those, I would suppose Shine might act as a sort of stopper, but I can't say for sure.

Nah I thought you could cause I think have (but I could be wrong) some one should look into this Fox BR/Uzi/Scotu

I kinda hope this isn't directed at me...

Lol ^ and it says the message I entered is too short so ingore after "lol" XD

 

[Zephil]

finally Zhamy do this... he has always been telling "why **** you still MC with Dair!! Uair is better!! U SUCK!! (ok I invented the last part)

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

lol, zammy finaly made a post about it instead of *****ing at people when he cretiques : P

 

[Sukai]

I thought it was common knowledge to use the fastest aerial to help momentum cancelling.
Fail Zhamy, you're better than this.
I tend to shine for A2.

 

[crifer]

Zhamy wins.
I never sound harsh, but...
All of you who think or maybe guess shine could stop or reduce your knockback fail.
It sends you further away, it gives you more boost to the deathzone.

 

[Conviction]

Zhamy wins.
I never sound harsh, but...
All of you who think or maybe guess shine could stop or reduce your knockback fail.
It sends you further away, it gives you more boost to the deathzone.

I know that I'm just wondering why brawl physics does that, that's not harsh that was just telling not mushing into ground like ZHAMY.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Yeah, shine braking isn't quite as good as bucket braking... to say the least...


But seriously... Dair, you can FF in the middle of the move... even after getting hit...

So it reacts faster than when the move ends... so why is uair the solid better choice?

I realize in videos and testing that uair seems to be better, sure... but if Dair isn't dependent on when it ends... then why is uair better?

 

[Conviction]

Guess the only way to tell is to see if some one lives longer with Dair or Uair.

 

[Zhamy]

Uair is better simply because it ends faster. The more quickly you gain control over your character, the better it is. Also, if you want to double jump? You can't do that until Dair ends. It's just good habit to use Uair, and it'll bite you in the *** one day if you keep using Dair.

The thing is - Uair is strictly better for cancelling sideways momentum (because Brawl physics are ****ed up), and it covers upward momentum just as well as Dair. Why wouldn't you use it?

Also, shining does not stop your momentum, as far as I can recall.

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

shining makes you go flying in wierd directions.

the ONLY time its good to use shine is when you want a small boost to get out of there follor up attacks, that or they chase you off the stage and hit you up-diagnoly, and you shine and you get a huge boost up towardss the stage, same thing with firefox in this case actually.

 

[Conviction]

Stupid Brawl Physics.

 

[Sukai]

Shine does not cancel momentum.

EDIT: Seems I forgot to add that in my last post.

 

[crifer]

shine seems to multiplay the momentum somehow.
You watched the vid, how to momentum cancel? where was it?
idk... you can find it on youtube... in the vid there was a luigi upB ing Fox and he showed what happens if you use airdodge, a aerial or shine...

 

[FzeroX]

The best way to DI would be Uair FF. Dair in no way is better. since you can initiate your FF with Uair at the same time as dair. if you are good at DIing and are always high above the stage and need to cancel your horizontal momentum you should illusion cancel (meaning cancel it at the last possible moment to get the gliding part). If you havent mastered cancelling yet (I still havent got it fully) then fair, which is the second best thing to do.

I do believe that covers everything. Just remember the best way to DI is to SDI. then you will have more time to do whatever.

 

[Moon-Doggie]

I like how now Fox can B reversal to completley stop his momentum. Someone probably posted it already But yeah it's awesome how Fox is improving. Though its hard as HECK to do and if you miss you gain momentum LAWL.