Still viable?

[Spoice]

With all the nerfs he's received it seems Meta Knight has basically been rejected. Does anyone feel like he still has potential to be at least a mid tier character? He's got some good tools to use, albeit harder to use, but even then anyone who knows how to use him would be able to deal with these.

 

[Rehnquist]

He is easily mid tier, with the Japanese rating system of S, A, B, C, D, E, I'd class MK as B, which isn't too bad. Character ceilings aren't really felt until you you start getting into the deeper end of the competitive scene. People who are intelligent/knowledgeable with DI are really the bane of meta knight who I feel is more dependent on strings than other characters. Otherwise MK is able to hold his own in mid level or regional tourney play.

Those who are speculated to fill in S or A tiers either have amazing movement options or KO combo potential. Meta knight has flawed elements of both (compared to Brawl where he had phenomenal movement options), so his ability to control the flow of battle is not quite as impressive as other members of the cast. There are also several characters who are worse off than MK, enough of them to the point where MK isn't low tier. I think the only reason MK is more frustrating is because he is on the edge of being tourney ready but has a few flaws which hold him back.

Essentially, he is really good to pull out for the right match ups considering his low presence in the competitive scene.

His shield pressure on his default set is decent, Nado is a godsend with its damage and lingering hitbox, and has multiple options for recovery.

Otherwise, I find him fun to play as, I ditched Yoshi in Smash 4 because he felt way to safe, I like a little risk in my characters of choice.

edit:

fixing spelling errors

 

[warionumbah2]

Mid tier at worse, he got tools to face off against the high tiers there's one MU where he has a solid edge over(RosaLuma). He's viable i see MK in tournaments and Katakiri wins them frequently or place high in them.

High mid or low high tier imo there's a few mid tiers that can't do jack against the top. MK will only improve as the meta evolves(he's fricken META Knight) the harder to use/demanding characters tend to be up there later in the meta anyway because people get better at the game.

 

[MarthFanatique]

For the longest time I believed that MK has become a low tier character. I never encountered anyone who was able to pressure and KO reliably. I thought (like many feel) that a lot of the community has abandoned MK because you actually require skill to win he can't pressure, KO, etc as efficiently. HOWEVER! There was one MK main on for glory mode that absolutely trashed me. He had such a knowledge of the character, how to pressure and keep me overwhelmed constantly. He punished EVERY mistake I did, and KO'd me without too much difficulty. As a Robin main, I understand how a lot of rushdown top tier characters are troublesome once they get inside a certain area, but I usually can shake them off and regain control and regain neutral. This guy though?--never could do such a thing. Perhaps it was my lack of matchup experience, but there was a glimmer of hope that this character isn't complete garbage.

 

[Katakiri]

Short Answer: Yes; because, much like Diddy, he actually yells "Hoo" (D-Throw/F-Throw) and "Hah" (Up-B) during a KO combo.


Moderate-length answer: MK honestly wasn't nerfed, he was rebalanced into a completely different beast. MK's is still very, very good but for different reasons than Brawl. IMO, he's easily one of the top 10 best characters in Smash 4 in terms of overall viability. In this game, MK is all about combos and the Hoo Hah; if you're not getting a follow-up off of almost every attack you do that isn't a Smash Attack, Nado, or D-Tilt, you're not playing MK correctly. Brawl MK and Smash 4 MK play so differently that comparing the two is like comparing Melee and Brawl Falco.
I think the first step to understanding this character is to know what changed or at least know what tools he has now:

- His sword's reach is now about even with that of the fist-fighters like Luigi and Fox, this also extends to Mach Tornado.
- His grounded attacks no longer have transcendent priority and his Smash Attacks can be cancelled by, honestly, really dumb moves like Sonic's Spin Dash.
- His single-move damage output is easily the worst in the game
- His D-Smash, F-Air, and Mach Tornado now have considerable lag instead of being relatively safe to throw out.
- D-Air isn't as useful due to the shorter reach.
- No gliding.
- He has one borderline unwinnable MU in Sonic but MK still goes about even or better with the rest of the cast IMO.

+ His combo game is arguably second to none now. He gets true combos off of his Dash Attack, F-Throw, or D-Throw from 0% all the way to 90+%. Even Diddy has to fear getting Hoo Hah'd himself.
+ Still has arguably the best dash grab in the game which makes his combos off of throws very practical.
+ He gained a lot of KO power over his Brawl incarnation as well, netting huge knock-back buffs to B-Air, F-Smash, Up-Smash, Up-B OoS, and Dimensional Cape Slash on top of his new-found ability to KO off of grabs and dash attack.
+ Still has one of the best off-stage gimping tool-kits in the game and N-Air actually has more horizontal knockback than Brawl's iirc.
+ F-Smash's lack of ending lag.
+ Dimensional Cape lets MK ignore ledge-guarding by snapping to the ledge while intangible and makes landing a breeze, making MK hard to juggle.
+ Again, pretty even MUs across the board IMO, minus Sonic; he can even act as a counter to popular characters like Rosalina and Ness. If it weren't for Sonic, you could still main MK and never need another character. He's still that solid.

And going back to that last point, he's that solid MU-wise because Smash 4 MK's tool-kits on the ground and off-stage are difficult for almost any character to box-out. On-stage: high ground-speed, the best dash grab in the game, a piercing dash attack that keeps moving which makes it safer than most, dat F-Smash, some of the fastest rolls and spot dodge in the game, a combo game that works at any reasonable percent, and high juggling potential while having his own anti-juggling tool in Dimensional Cape. Off-stage: 6 jumps with decent air speed, long-lasting hitbox in N-Air, disjointed hitboxes with F-Air and B-Air, Drill Rush stage spike, and Dimensional Cape recovery.
I constantly say that Smash 4 MK is much more like Melee Fox than Brawl MK but that's because I really mean it almost to a literal sense. His speed and on-stage combo game with pokes, throws, and dash attacks coupled with his off-stage N-Air (think Shine-Spike) should really give credence to that claim.

MK's has a brutal learning curve so I don't expect people to think too highly of him right off the bat but I guarantee if I make the drive down to Xanadu (I intend to at some point) and get some stream time or someone else steps up and shows people how it's done, we might get this character exposed yet. MK vs Diddy is a 50-50 MU. Hoo Hah.

Long answer: MK Guide coming soon.

 

[IPoD Max]

Yo Katakiri that's a very informative post. I took a look after your combos and I was just wondering what you thought of D-throw to Up smash at low percents. I have trouble landing the dash attack like you have in your combo list, but I find it works well just with the Up-smash. What do you think?

In response to OP: yes I really like metaknight and I've been finding some relative success with him.

 

[Katakiri]

@ IPoD Max Good eye, I just didn't put that on the list yet. It's character-specific based on weight and fall-speed. At 0% there are certain characters, like Mario for example, that D-Throw > Up-Smash is the safest, guaranteed combo for and anything else could either whiff or be punished for not having enough knockback like D-Throw > Up-B; it's guaranteed but MK will be punished so the extra 3% Up-B nets over Up-Smash is lost. But others like Sheik and Fox (both fast-fallers) can be combo'd for strings that do far more damage than Up-Smash like D-Throw > Dash Attack > Up-Smash/Nado whilst light-weights like Kirby and MK himself can be caught by D-Throw > Nado which does roughly 9% more than just D-Throw > Up-Smash.

So again, it's character specific which D-Throw follow-up is best.

 

[FranktheKirby]

@OP I'm honestly not entirely sure. From what I can tell, MK is drastically different in the way he plays now compared to Brawl. I've just not seen enough Smash 4 players use him to make a judgment.

 

[ItoI6]

what does mk honestly have over diddy besides a better recovery? i think he gets slaughtered pretty bad, probably like 85-15 or 80-20 diddy favor imo

its been a long time since i played this character but i still think his neutral game is just too weak to compete against top tiers.

 

[warionumbah2]

MK has a bad neutral? I've heard lack of kill power and speed but bad neutral. How is MK neutral game bad even though he has amazing ground options. 82:18 is implying that MK is helpless which clearly isn't the case.

MK has a safer smash attack,safer dash attack, better kill set ups that can't be DI away from fully, better off stage game,faster dtilt. Haven't played diddy in a week but I plan to play some when the mu comes 80:20 is false.

 

[fabulouspants]

maybe I'm baised, but I think MK gets bopped pretty ****ing hard by Diddy. maybe 6-4 or 65-35. He's like upper mid or bottom high tier, IMO.

 

[warionumbah2]

Explain why you think the MU is that lopped sided(i think its 55:45 in Diddy's favour) and also state what's stopping MK from breaking out of mid tier because there's no doubt in my mind that he's high tier.

Spoiler

+Decent neutral(debatable if its bad or not)
+Good mobility on the ground
+6 jumps
+Great advantage and disadvantage state
+Kill setups
+Over 6 kill moves
+Frame traps
+Disjoints(despite poor range)
+Good dash grab/attack
+Good OOS options and combo's
+Edgeguard as good as Sheiks but nowhere near as braindead
+Literally ignore traps and edgeguard attempts using down b and stage spike anyone who goes after you off stage
+Small hurtbox
+Safe F-Smash

His cons are
-Cannot use aerials in neutral
-Poor range
-Lightweight
-No projectile

Then his MU against the whole cast and high tiers are good, only Sonic and maybe Ganon come to mind as really bad MU but even so they are winnable. If a character with this many pros is upper mid then i don't know what to say.



What do we have in common with them? One of the best disadvantage and advantage states, good ground mobility,kill setups(not sure about pika and yoshi), guaranteed follow ups out of grab(lol yoshi) and good recovery to the point where edgeguarding is almost impossible. Only thing he lacks is projectiles and SH aerials to use safely in neutral. Unlike them MK can stal his landings and recovery, even invalidate projectiles those are the quirks of having multiple jumps.

 

[AmishTechnology]

I've heard it several times around here now... what makes Ganondorf a bad MU for Meta Knight? He's so gimpable and grabbable. Are good Ganons able to force hit trades or something on you? He does kill you at like 80% lol.

 

[warionumbah2]

I've heard it several times around here now... what makes Ganondorf a bad MU for Meta Knight? He's so gimpable and grabbable. Are good Ganons able to force hit trades or something on you? He does kill you at like 80% lol.

He completely out ranges us, can equalize all the hits we land with 2 or 3 blows. Because side b into dtilt kills a lightweight like MK so early we are forced to zone him out with dair. If he recovers horizontally with side b we cant do a thing about it, for some reason all of MK aerials cant beat his aerial side b.

Dont even get me started on stages like bf, I only say ganon over and over because he can potentially be our 2nd worst mu. At best it could be 60:40, of course this can all change as the meta developes.

 

[Demon-oni]

Actually the back of nair can beat ganon side b off stage.

 

[AmishTechnology]

Does Nair have a different hitbox behind Metaknight or something? I guess it's time to RAR Nairs against Gordos and ganoncides lol.

I also find Fox and Falco's side-B very difficult to intercept because they either literally teleport through you or they hit you out of your nair/bair... Is it a spacing thing or is it just incontestable this game as MK? Their Up B is also seemingly impossible to intercept once they actually take flight, though the pre-fire stage is really ripe for nair gimps and whatnot.

 

[Demon-oni]

I can only assume so. Back of nair consistently beats out ganoncide attempts, whereas straight nair is 50/50 on a one way trip to sad ville.

I can beat it out spacie side b's, if only because it's the start of the move. As for why it only works sometimes, that's something I'll need to test. I usually wait for them to take flight and hit them with a bair stage spike. It misses sometimes, but I'll figure out a timing to it eventually.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

My experience with Meta Knight, especially post-patch, has grown increasingly positive, to the point he has been recently re-welcomed into my personal Top 5 (ousting Dark Pit). He certainly isn't broken like in Brawl, but he still has a hell of a lot of potential and I think the initial rebalancing of the cast that was clearly out of Meta Knight's favor turned off a lot of people, but I think some of those true MK fans should pick him up and see he's not as bad as people made him out to be. He can do it.

 

[Float SSB]

As much as people want to trash on MK and say hes bad from a FUNDAMENTAL standpoint MK can't really be bad.

He is fast, has multiple jumps and a good roll. That is already a recipe for a strong character.

 

[ephOE]

After reading your post @ Katakiri , I decided to stop messing around with MK and really try to learn him. He's fighting to be my second most used character now. I've hit a few roadblocks here and there but I do see a bit of potential.

I can't say I'm as entirely optimistic as you on his viability (granted I'm not that good a player), but maybe that doesn't matter since I find him to be very fun.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

He completely out ranges us, can equalize all the hits we land with 2 or 3 blows. Because side b into dtilt kills a lightweight like MK so early we are forced to zone him out with dair. If he recovers horizontally with side b we cant do a thing about it, for some reason all of MK aerials cant beat his aerial side b.

Dont even get me started on stages like bf, I only say ganon over and over because he can potentially be our 2nd worst mu. At best it could be 60:40, of course this can all change as the meta developes.

I just want to say that I find it incredibly satisfying that the Metaknight/Ganondorf matchup has now shifted to being so even compared to how it was in Brawl.

That said, with MK's roll stats, I would be surprised if he couldn't escape side-b > dtilt with techroll. Also, pretty much anything should beat out side-b since it has no grab armor. I think it's just a tight window with MK's fast moves/low range.

 

[warionumbah2]

I just want to say that I find it incredibly satisfying that the Metaknight/Ganondorf matchup has now shifted to being so even compared to how it was in Brawl.

That said, with MK's roll stats, I would be surprised if he couldn't escape side-b > dtilt with techroll. Also, pretty much anything should beat out side-b since it has no grab armor. I think it's just a tight window with MK's fast moves/low range.

That was an old post lol, he's not a huge threat compared to the top tiers but yeah I think he has a slight edge maybe even if the MK fights ganon with a brain instead of thinking "lol its ganon he's lowtier". Still haven't found an answer to aerial side b, I usually bait it so they die or I simply edgeguard ganon if he recovers low. Side b from MK is too risky because one air dodge = instant death.

 

[srn347]

His size and range have been significantly nerfed since brawl, making him have to play much more aggressively than he used to. That said, he doesn't have much trouble building damage or killing, he can keep the opponent in the air for days, and he doesn't have to think twice about recovering. Also fwiw, most of his attacks' range may not be that great, but his dash grab range is amazing.