Stages : Criterias Discussion

[Blad01]

The discussions on the stage are not being fruitful at all, and that's only because we all have different criterias on why we should make a specific stage a CP / banned.

So here we are, what should be the criterias (for Neutrals, CP and Bans) ?

Criterias I have seen so far :

- Randomness
- Match-ups Disadvantages / Advantages
- Being able to move freely (All use your moves everywhere on the stage)

And for Bans, you can add :

- Unplayable (too big by example)
- Facilitates excessive stalling.

Discuss !

 

[Marcbri]

Being able to move freely (All use your moves everywhere on the stage)

all stages cp except for the Sonic stage, I want to cancel Ganon's fair =D.

really, because a couple of characters can't autocancel a couple of moves in a specific part of the stage it doesn't make the stage cp.

 

[-Jumpman-]

What's to discuss?

 

[Greward]

Is this post done to know what we should take care of to decide if a stage is starter/counterpick/banned?

Random elements that affect the game, matchup *****, hyrule effect. These for ban if they are important enough. Stalling (PS1) and too large. Wall locks.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Promoting infinites
Promoting stalling
Effectively shutting down options of specific characters
Walk off edges

 

[Greward]

Promoting infinites
Promoting stalling
Effectively shutting down options of specific characters
Walk off edges

Then why yoshis should be counterpick? U should be more consistent on whatever u say...

 

[Marc]

Is the stage broken or not? You can group randomness and bad glitches in there.

Everything else is based on philosophy really. =/

 

[Blad01]

Then why yoshis should be counterpick? U should be more consistent on whatever u say...

"Effectively shutting down options of specific characters" I guess. Autocancels are only possible on 50% of the stage (more or less), and shy guys can stop projectiles (that's not my main argument at all, but it could be his).

Also, I would like to add a side note. We have to take into consideration low tiers, since they are in the game. And they are people who play them, so don't be that disrespectful and ignorant.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Then why yoshis should be counterpick? U should be more consistent on whatever u say...

It was a list, I did not say that it should be limited to it. It were merely the first things that sprung to mind.

Don't jump conclusions

 

[Greward]

As low tiers I consider link, ganondorf and falcon. The others can be good. Yea I know that these are the bottom tier, but maybe one day ness is high tier!
How much characters are shut down for the autocancels ****? Ganondorf? You can autocancell well on yoshis, just in certain part of the stage u cant (when the ground is lower and u jump to a high).
And about shy guys, u can see them, and as much they will stop 2 projectiles in a whole game, as much.
Yoshis wont really change the result of a match, then idk why it should be counterpick.
I think if the stage really changes the result of a match, then banned/counterpick or if it has important random things or make **** matchups (like luigi's).

 

[Marcbri]

"Effectively shutting down options of specific characters" I guess. Autocancels are only possible on 50% of the stage (more or less), and shy guys can stop projectiles (that's not my main argument at all, but it could be his).

Also, I would like to add a side note. We have to take into consideration low tiers, since they are in the game. And they are people who play them, so don't be that disrespectful and ignorant.

Who cares about Ganondorf, he will lose in all the stages -.-.

just because a couple of characters can't play 100% ( they aren't unplayable there, it's just a really minor disadvantage) we can't make a stage cp. As I said Sonic's stage for starter because I want to cancel Ganon's Fair and I can't in other stages -__-

 

[Blad01]

Even Ganon, Falcon, and Link should be taken into consideration.

AC issue concerns Pikachu, Kirby, Fox, Wolf, Bowser, PT, Ike, Samus, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, and even Snake (Uair).

Yoshis wont really change the result of a match, then idk why it should be counterpick.
I think if the stage really changes the result of a match, then banned/counterpick or if it has important random things or make **** matchups (like luigi's).

Change the result of a match ? How can you determine that ? Even the smallest thing can change the result of match.
And about YI, if you are Fox, do a SH Fair, but get lag at the end because of the stage, and then take a smash in your face, and lose the match... The result of the match is changed because of YI.

 

[Greward]

Even Ganon, Falcon, and Link should be taken into consideration.

AC issue concerns Pikachu, Kirby, Fox, Wolf, Bowser, PT, Ike, Samus, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, and even Snake (Uair).



Change the result of a match ? How can you determine that ? Even the smallest thing can change the result of match.
And about YI, if you are Fox, do a SH Fair, but get lag at the end because of the stage, and then take a smash in your face, and lose the match... The result of the match is changed because of YI.

If u didnt do that fair u didnt lose, the same if u go for jab DDD, u will get shieldgrabed
Pikachu? In spain we probably have the best pikachu of Europe and i NEVER heard him johning of this stage because he could autocancel an attack lol this means that this is not important at all.
Oh, u cant AC if u go from down to high... but u can autocancel when u go from high to down more attacks than in FD, SV and BF!!! They all banned!!!!

 

[Blad01]

If u didnt do that fair u didnt lose, the same if u go for jab DDD, u will get shieldgrabed
Pikachu? In spain we probably have the best pikachu of Europe and i NEVER heard him johning of this stage because he could autocancel an attack lol this means that this is not important at all.

? Should I care about your best pikachu player johning or not after a match ? The truth is, it limits his options.

Oh, u cant AC if u go from down to high... but u can autocancel when u go from high to down more attacks than in FD, SV and BF!!! They all banned!!!!

Still, it limits some characters' options, and as you notice yourself, it makes a big difference with FD/SV/BF. YI implies a playstyle too different (which limits your options) from BF/SV/FD's ones with some characters, and that's why it should be CP.

And about Fox : It's the same if I don't use my Fair. Imagine if I use a Bair (one-hit) instead of a Fair (multi-hit) by example. My opponent shields my one-hit attack, and I get punished for it, and lose. The stage changed the result of that match.
(Well the exemple is not perfect, since Fair rarely kills with Fox, but you get the idea)

Should we vote for the criterias ?

 

[K@0S]

AC conserns also MK (nair) and Wario (dair), and they aren't bottom at all.

Anyway, saying that we shouldn't take into account every characters is the worst argument ever, say that to the ones who main these characters.

Pikachu? In spain we probably have the best pikachu of Europe and i NEVER heard him johning of this stage because he could autocancel an attack lol this means that this is not important at all.

Gratz to that pika player for not being a johner. Then what ?

all stages cp except for the Sonic stage, I want to cancel Ganon's fair =D.

Oh, u cant AC if u go from down to high... but u can autocancel when u go from high to down more attacks than in FD, SV and BF!!! They all banned!!!!

You can't even use your useless irony properly. It's not about the stage on which you can AC the most efficiently, and it's obvious that it's not the point we defend here.
But a starter should be totally horizontal so that AC is balanced on all the stage (or at least that's the point we defend); and not only AC, but all your timings upon landing and the way hitboxes work. Since I see some YI's reference, let's just say that YI's shape is not horizontal at all and that the platform tilts.

 

[Greward]

that pika usually johns, but it is so minor that he doesn't bother. plus pika doesn't have any AC attack -.-
The platform dont tilt... its just irregular, which is different. You should know the options u have on every part of the stage, if u dont.
I can AC MK's nair and wario's dair wherever I want on YI -_-
I want a complete list of the attacks that cant be AC, then we continue the discussion because we will both know if it influence so much the characters.

 

[Marcbri]

AC conserns also MK (nair) and Wario (dair), and they aren't bottom at all.

stop saying things you don't know about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1blgoMCX7AI&feature=channel_page

-___-

 

[K@0S]

stop saying things you don't know about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1blgoMCX7AI&feature=channel_page

-___-

In a match you must cancel his dair with good timing to get a shield stun advantage. And timings are different depending on the shape of the stage, but I agree that you can do it everywhere. Meaning that I was right when I said

But a starter should be totally horizontal so that AC is balanced on all the stage (or at least that's the point we defend); and not only AC, but all your timings upon landing

About MK's nair, I've just tested, you can cancel it everywhere with strict timing, but you can't always nair + uair nor nair + jump.

 

[Marcbri]

Well, even if timings are different, I don't feel it's a reason to make a stage cp.

I think of a CP as a stage that is legal but not all characters can really play there or some others have just too much advantage. for that reason they are only good for games 2 and 3 ( or more if it's best of 5) since you can choose your character knowing the stage.

What do you think of that criteria?

 

[K@0S]

I think that we should establish a starter criteria and a ban criteria. Counterpicks would be stages which aren't in these categories.

 

[Marcbri]

Well, here are the criterias imo

Hyrule effect (like Temple)

I think I don't need to explain this one.

Permanent walk-offs ( Like Mario kart)
Not only because of chaingrab, but because many people can just wait next to the blast zones if they are winning and many characters can't do anything to avoid it and this usually makes time to run out .

Permanent Walls: ( like Shadow Moses)

these stages also usually get time to run out: for example someone waiting in the wall of corneria. With these stages we allow way too much infinites and time will run out most of time.

Way too much advantage for some characters (like Luigi's mansion)

these stages may be debatable, until how much is there so much advantage that this needs to be banned? is it big enough to get the stage cp, or just with having it starter with strike stage availabe is enough ? ( for example IC **** in FD, but striking system takes care of this.)

Random influences the match too much ( like Wario Ware)

Again, debatable if the random effects make the stage cp or banned or just really really minor and the stage could be a starter

.
with these criteria we could stablish any stage as starter, cp or banned I think

 

[Greward]

On permanent walk-offs, only if there is a walk-off on both sides of the stage. For example, i dont think that distant planet should be banned for its walk-off.

 

[-Jumpman-]

ACs aren't criteria, period. If you let this be criteria, you can use Ganon's fair be criteria too. Or Ike's fair. It's not practical and it won't help us creating a good ruleset. No discussion needed.

 

[Marc]

It is simply not practical to create a starterset that's equally fair to all characters.
You either random select from stages you consider "neutral", or you stage strike from stages that are considered fairly neutral but you want to have more influence on (take your pick for what applies to Brawl's starter stages). Either way, if you're not willing to compromise on a stage like YS, there's little hope for a European ruleset.

I find myself agreeing with Marcbri's list for the most part.