STAGE SELECTION POLL - Neutral / Counterpick / Ban

[jimmyjoe]

Come on Yobo, Hyrule promotes character variety more than DL. Pedromiguel, the best Peruvian Link player, went pika exclusively for the tournament, but he certainly wouldn't have played link if they played DL.

Some people don't think promoting character variety and enhancing character viability are good reasons to keep stages legal, but many people strongly disagree with that. Why wouldn't you want to promote character variety? You simply can't argue that it doesn't matter if a stage helps promote character variety while your reasoning for wanting a rule change is based on a boring viewing experience due to an overabundance of pika dittos.

If it has nothing to due with the characters/matchups that people want to see hyrule gone(and enjoy pika dittos with some Kirby/falcon here or there on DL exclusively(shoot me before this happens please)) they've been arguing about camping.
Yobo, I know you watched Gerson vs. Gohan match, that was a pika ditto, but it certainly wasn't campy. I haven't had time to sit down and watch all of the Peruvian videos. I'm sure they did some camping. People are going to camp. We aren't the Peruvian scene, and Hyrule isn't our exclusive level. You have the option, as it's been said, to strike it, and only play the stage once at most.

For some reason you guys are all jumping on this bandwagon of the ludacris idea that playing on DL only will help the meta game evovle. Where are you coming up with this? The best players will be good at all legal stages, and will be good at many match ups on many different terrains. The growth cap for skill and gap between the great and the best will grow larger this way, and give us a higher ceiling. Why would we want to stiffle character diversity, skill at different stages, and discourage the development of a complex matchup knowledge involving four legal battlegrounds.

 

[¨°PÞ-§°¨ Bane]

because hyrule is a terribly flawed stage

i encourage you to read my thread for the most common reasons that people will use to explain why it is. it's a long post, but i tried to cover every possible option that people would try to argue against.

 

[clubbadubba]

Come on Yobo, Hyrule promotes character variety more than DL.

Haven't watched the videos, but if what yobo said about this tournament was true (mostly pika's and kirby's with the occasional fox, stradon and pedromiguel both go PIKA) then we have evidence here that shows it doesn't. People can theorize about how much of a boost low tiers get on hyrule all they want, but at the end of the day its all theory. It seems that players in an ALL HYRULE environment don't have much difference in character selection than we do, resulting in a large number of pika's/kirby's, with a bit of falcon/fox sprinkled in. In fact, it's Japan with the ALL DREAMLAND stage list that has amazing yoshi's (prince), ness's (nangoku), mario's (RED), samus's( jousuke) as well as a number of good pika/kirby/fox/falcon players that all do well at tournaments.

People can make up reasons why this is the case if they want to and try and swing it so that somehow hyrule promotes character diversity. But based on the evidence, it is pretty safe to say that BY ITSELF, hyrule DOES NOT promote character diversity. If it did, Peru would have many more low/mid tier players. People just say "oh obviously hyrule favors low tiers" because they have that opinion, but it simply is not shown in tournaments which is all that matters when we talk about stage selection.

 

[Sensei]

To be fair, JAPANESE SMASH, is a different game from US SMASH. Tier list is all lopsided and it appears to be a more balanced game so we really shouldn't compare the two. It still does not change the fact that Hyrule is broken though. I used to be pro-hyrule because it was hella fun on friendlies where nothing is at stake except to see who can pull off the coolest combos so you usually play really aggro and matches don't take too long. It wasn't until I started to see it from a strictly tournament perspective that showed that people will do anything to win, i.e. camp, triangle camping, tent camping/combos that created long and boring matches, plus tornado is ********. It can be seen that high level Hyrule play does not promote character diversity. We still need more data on strictly DL or just non-hyrule tournaments, which I think will show for more interesting and fair matches.

 

[jimmyjoe]

Clubba, hyrule has see more diversity in character choice than DL in every tournament I've been to here in the northeastern U.S. That is evidence to the contrary of what you're saying. Less diversity in a single recent Peruvian tournament and More diversity in Japanese tournaments(which use a different version of the game), seem to hold less weight to me.

Bane I read your entire post. It was well written and I agree with you on many points, and understand where you're coming from, so thank you for trying to be as concise as possible.


I do however, still think Hyrule should remain.

I think the randomness of the tornadoes is overstated in your post, and in the thread, others pointed out that

• the general direction of the tornadoes appearance can be determined with sound
• There are only four locations they spawn.
• Fast/angry/aggressive tornadoes VERY RARELY happen when a character isn't standing on the same platform that they occupy, for a set amount of time. I think jumping seems to reset this "timer" as well. If someone could look more thoroughly into this it would be helpful.

I could argue the debatable importance of horizontal symmetry, but I do agree that Hyrule is flawed; the problem with banning it, is that DL, Congo, and PC are also flawed, but all too similar their overall size.

Size Matters.

The 3 non-hyrule stages are always going to be a much more edge oriented game. I think too much of the match is an edgeguard/recovery situation on DL, and that this is less fun to both play and watch. Of course that is subjective but watching M2K vs Han solo at gluttony made me realize what I really hate about the small stage size-

While Han's fox was trying to recover, he was crafty enough(in an already almost hopeless situation), to cause M2K to mess up an edge guard attempt. Han managed to get over the top of the hitbox of a Kirby Nair, and was hit towards the stage. His percantage was not unreasonably high, and on Hyrule he would have been back on solid ground ready to battle for postion, but due to the small stage size of DL it just became an edgeguard/recovery situation on the opposite side of the stage.​

It is not subjective, this type of thing will happen more on a smaller stage. To be fair, it is my subjective opinion that this is a bad thing, but it makes playing a character with a **** recovery a much more frustrating endeavor.

I will maybe edit this with more when I have time

 

[SheerMadness]

You can't compare character diversity in North America to Peru/Japan. We have a multiple stage format while they have a 1 stage format.

Hyrule very clearly promotes more character diversity over DL in the North American tourneys we've seen. I don't see how anyone can refute that.

We almost only ever see Fox, a top tier character, on Hyrule. Everyone is too scared to play him vs all the Pikas on DL. Link goes from competitively viable to almost unplayable in the Hyrule to DL transition. And yes we have seen a decent amount of Link played in tourney thanks to Isai/A$. Ness may not be great amazing on Hyrule but Firo was counter picking there last Apex to avoid getting gimped.

Lets look at evidence from within our own rule set before acting like evidence from radically different rule sets are the be all and end all to this discussion.

 

[Zenyore]

Lol @ people demonizing Hyrule.

Because camping is the only gay way to play.

NOPE.

Yes you can camp on Hyrule. However, rarely will the weaker player win on Hyrule even in spite of camping.

Dreamland is a gimpfest and allows ezmode kills i.e. falcon America combos / LD-style kills. Are those REALLY worse than camping ? They sure aren't, IMHO.

I'm not trying to ban Dreamland, but rather pointing out that albeit differently, it's just as gay as Hyrule.

 

[The Star King]

Pika will dominate regardless of stage list. If you say otherwise you're kidding yourself.

I actually laughed at Yobo attempting to kind of say that DL only would make Pikachu less prevalent.

In general, some people seem to be trying to score any points they possibly can against Hyrule. I'll just let you know that makes your argument seem weaker, not stronger. Stick with points that are actually strong. The defensive strength of certain positions is a good point. Pretending DL only would stop tournaments from being Pika fests is not. I know you guys know that Dreamland is incredibly strong for Pikachu itself.

 

[clubbadubba]

@jimmyjoe, can we get some hard evidence as to exactly what character diversity you're seeing? Maybe someone can put together some numbers or something, because at the tournaments I'VE been to I would not say this is the case. Before anyone makes claims about what has or hasn't happened as a result of hyrule you need data, not handwaving "well it obviously has".

@Sensei, your right about japanese, I somehow forgot it was a different game lol. That is very true we shouldn't consider them. I would still expect more diversity from the peruvian community if the stage creates such character diversity though.

You can't compare character diversity in North America to Peru/Japan. We have a multiple stage format while they have a 1 stage format.

Sure you can with Peru, since they play the same version of the game. Since we don't play exclusively Hyrule and instead mix in other "non-diversifying" stages as well, I would expect Peru to have more diversity than us. This does not seem to be the case.

Hyrule very clearly promotes more character diversity over DL in the North American tourneys we've seen. I don't see how anyone can refute that.

We almost only ever see Fox, a top tier character, on Hyrule. Everyone is too scared to play him vs all the Pikas on DL. Link goes from competitively viable to almost unplayable in the Hyrule to DL transition. And yes we have seen a decent amount of Link played in tourney thanks to Isai/A$. Ness may not be great amazing on Hyrule but Firo was counter picking there last Apex to avoid getting gimped.

Consider it refuted.

The link players has nothing to do with Hyrule. Isai went Link in 2012 (on DL too btw) for the same reason he did in 2013, which I'm pretty sure has nothing to do Hyrule (though who knows the REAL reasons). A$ went Link because quite frankly he played an opponent that he was simply better than (sorry Stranded) and wanted to have fun. These are good players looking to make things challenging, not examples of character diversity. You are right in saying "thanks to Isai/A$", because it is thanks the them not to Hyrule. I could go yoshi against people I know I'm going to beat, that doesn't mean the stage I select is promoting character diversity.

Every fox I've ever played in tournament played fox on both hyrule and DL (this includes han/LD/Firo/some random brawl scrub (he switch from fox when we went to hyrule actually, that was stupid of him lol)). The only person off the top of my head that I can think of who goes fox exclusively on Hyrule is Sensei. If I'm missing someone please let me know.

Again, kinda similar to Isai/A$ in that Firo decided to go all ness at last Apex just to see how far he could take him (what he told me last Apex). Hyrule did not promote this diversity, his desire to use his character did. If he couldn't have picked Hyrule, it's not like he would have switched from Ness.

Lets look at evidence from within our own rule set before acting like evidence from radically different rule sets are the be all and end all to this discussion.

Fair enough, lets. The only evidence that I see of someone going another character exclusively on Hyrule is Sensei with fox. What other evidence is there of a player who plays a different character on Hyrule because he thinks its his best option to win?

 

[SheerMadness]

What other evidence is there of a player who plays a different character on Hyrule because he thinks its his best option to win?

I really don't understand why you think this is the only thing that matters when determining how a given stage promotes character diversity. If that's the case why should anyone ever pick a character other than Pikachu on DL?

Hyrule promotes character diversity because characters with terrible recoveries won't get gimped anywhere near as easy. Not everyone in the community wants switch off their favorite character and play the tier list just because they might have a better match up with a different character.

A$ knew he could remain competitive and have a chance to win with Link on Hyrule. He also knew he'd have more fun with Link than Pikachu. Firo wanted to play his best character and not get gimped off a throw at 10%, so he went Hyrule. Those are examples of how Hyrule promotes character diversity.

"What's my absolute best option to win?" should not factor into this. In case you didn't know high tier characters are better than low tier characters on hyrule too lolol.

 

[mixa]

The only evidence that I see of someone going another character exclusively on Hyrule is Sensei with fox

Sensei went Fox on Dream Land:

vs Boom (GFs, Sweet XII )
vs KeroKeroppi (WFs and GFs, RBR #13)
vs KeroKeroppi again (GFs, BHB #1)

And he seems to only use Pika and Fox on Hyrule, while using those two plus Falcon and Kirby on Dream Land.


And if anyone is curious:
[collapse=Japanese top 8 char distribution]

Except for the "# in 1st place" column, I only used tournaments which had complete top 8s. They're from Kanto, Kansai, Osaka U, and the Spring season ones which are online. I ignored the Rookie Cups altogether.

Here is the link to all the results.[/collapse]

 

[clubbadubba]

I really don't understand why you think this is the only thing that matters when determining how a given stage promotes character diversity. If that's the case why should anyone ever pick a character other than Pikachu on DL?

Because not everyone's best character is pikachu. A stage doesn't promote character diversity if it allows really good players to beat not so good characters by going characters they find more fun.

Hyrule promotes character diversity because characters with terrible recoveries won't get gimped anywhere near as easy. Not everyone in the community wants switch off their favorite character and play the tier list just because they might have a better match up with a different character.

More theory. Again, lets stick with evidence. Players who actually main mid/low-tiers generally stay with those characters on DL and on Hyrule. Examples: Firo, Cobr, Weedwack, Sheer (did you switch to fox on Hyrule at Apex?), YBOMBB, Nangoku. DL does not dissuade these players from using low/mid tiers.

A$ knew he could remain competitive and have a chance to win with Link on Hyrule. He also knew he'd have more fun with Link than Pikachu. Firo wanted to play his best character and not get gimped off a throw at 10%, so he went Hyrule. Those are examples of how Hyrule promotes character diversity.

So because A$ played a bad/fun character against someone he knew he would beat, that is character diversity? My puff is better on DL than hyrule. Does that mean if I go puff against someone I can easily beat next tourney on DL that DL promotes character diversity? I would hope not.

Firo's "best" is probably fox imo, and that's why at Apex 2012 he used lots of fox. He said at 2013 he just wanted to see how far he could take ness. Favorite =/= Best. Firo counterpicked to Hyrule, but he also played ness on DL. Hyrule was a better match-up in his opinion, but did not factor into his decision to play ness. Hyrule was not a factor in his character choice. Hyrule did not promote diversity.

"What's my absolute best option to win?" should not factor into this. In case you didn't know high tier characters are better than low tier characters on hyrule too lolol.

It should because it excludes cases where one player is just plain better than the other and can win by picking a bad character. I suppose if you count those types of cases (aka A$ vs stranded) then it technically promotes diversity in that worse characters are played, but this type of character diversity definitely shouldn't have any kind of influence on stage legality.

 

[DMoogle]

So because A$ played a bad/fun character against someone he knew he would beat, that is character diversity?

That's not the whole story. I used Link against Kero in WF on Hyrule fully expecting to win (based on our friendlies at Zenith, where I had extremely good results with Link against him) and have a bigger edge vs. him than in Pika dittos. Using Link against Kero was a strategic move, not just a move to make it more fun. And, obviously, I wouldn't have made that decision if we had played on Dreamland.

It ended up not working out, which was either because our matches at Zenith were a fluke or because my Link was having an off day, but the point still stands.



IMO, the following characters are clearly better on Hyrule in most matchups:
Luigi
Link
Fox
Ness

IMO, the following characters are clearly better on Dreamland in most matchups:
Mario
Pika (very close though)
Samus

Kirby is too close to call, and I'm really not sure about CF, Jiggly, DK, and Yoshi. I'd lean towards DL for CF and Yoshi though.

 

[clubbadubba]

Thanks for clearing that up. So far we have one instance of A$ going link on hyrule, and a few instances of sensei going fox on hyrule, though he has gone fox on DL apparently and uses more characters on DL than he does on Hyrule (thanks for the info mixa). Anything else where someone actually doesn't play a character on DL that they do on Hyrule?

I also want to reiterate that I am pro hyrule ban because I think we need a timer and I don't think Hyrule is playable with a timer. Character diversity does not effect my opinion on the stage, I just want to make sure we are dealing with facts and not theories that are debatable.

 

[SheerMadness]

So you're saying that even though Link being infinitely better on Hyrule persuaded A$ to go Link on Hyrule, it somehow doesn't count because he's a good player using a bad character lol? Not following your logic there honestly.

He played Link a ton vs Kero too btw. Are you going to say that doesn't count either because he knew he couldn't win and was just having fun? I call total BS on that. He went Link because Link is viable on Hyrule, it's his favorite char, and he thought he had a legit shot at winning on that stage. If that's not a stage promoting character diversity I don't know what is. Just because he didn't go Pikachu doesn't mean Hyrule didn't promote character diversity in this scenario.

I only played 1 game on hyrule at Apex. I would certainly counter pick someone to hyrule with Fox.

EDIT: There you go, out of A$'s own mouth. Looks like he believes Hyrules clearly promotes character diversity too.

 

[clubbadubba]

No, I'm saying because he was a good player playing a bad player (relatively) it shouldn't count. If I play someone worse than me I could pick a worse character too but we all know it doesn't mean anything because its a mismatch.

I admit A$'s link vs kero is a good example. However, it seems to be the sole example as Sensei plays fox on DL as well. Also, the rest of A$'s post (edit's that weren't there when I posted before) seem to say that mario/samus do better on DL. Falcon is better on DL imo as well. Different characters different strength's for sure, but the reality is that outside of A$ people rarely if ever play characters on Hyrule that they don't on DL.

 

[prisonchild]

why don't we wait for the results of nintendude's next tourney to make a definite decision?



also, I fully understand making hyrule a counterpick stage but I might not ever understand people wanting to ban it.

 

[Yobolight]

I actually laughed at Yobo attempting to kind of say that DL only would make Pikachu less prevalent.

I wasn't making an argument from character variety. I was making an argument from Match-up spread.

I only made the argument that Pikachu has a better MU spread in a Hyrule only rule-set than a Dreamland only ruleset.

It has nothing to do with the prevalence of Pikachu because that is ultimately up to individual players. Character variety isn't necessarily a good thing.

To be fair, JAPANESE SMASH, is a different game from US SMASH. Tier list is all lopsided and it appears to be a more balanced game so we really shouldn't compare the two.

Japanese version isn't WORLDS different than American version.

Kikoushi, Ruoka Danchon, and Nangoku placed in the top 8 at Apex 2013.

It isn't beyond comparison.

IMO, the following characters are clearly better on Hyrule in most matchups:
Ness

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-07y3-8_oI&feature=c4-overview&list=UUHGTbqqmMY9ghcc89DRqolQ

Ness is nothing without DL's platforms in a lot of MUs IMO.


BUT HONESTLY WHO CARES ABOUT CHARACTER VARIETY?!?!!?!

The only considerations that matter are whether Hyrule is a game breaking stage or uncompetitive, which I think evidence has shown it to be.

 

[Sangoku]

Nangoku is a bad example because he has so much more experience on Dreamland as he almost only play there according to the Japanese ruleset. His stage control there is ridiculous.

 

[Olikus]

BUT HONESTLY WHO CARES ABOUT CHARACTER VARIETY?!?!!?!
.

Uh many people. This is a 14 year old game. The only thing that keeps it alive is a small but passionate community who love it. If the future is like East coast with pika dittos, you will get a huge part of this community not satisfied. And worst case scenario many of them will quit and move on to other games.

The most crucial thing the ruleset should contain for such an old game, is rules that are the most fun for most people, and at the same time not being broken, but fair.

I know you and clubba screams about the most pika friendly ruleset ever, but the backside of that may be that you are the only 2 people left playing smash.

And that is another reason nintendude should listen more to the community. If he uses 4 stocks at apex after such a clear poll favoring 5 stocks, he should consider letting some other people TOing.

 

[prisonchild]

I think the ruleset should be pika only and DL only, most fair ruleset I can think of. think about it too, the metagame would go through the roof!

 

[SheerMadness]

Olikus throwing down the truth.

 

[Sangoku]

So we've analysed the situation thoroughly in the brazilian stream and we came up with this conclusion:

If pika plays against another char and beats him, ban the char because he's not viable in tourney. If the char beats pika, ban the stage, because it must not be a good stage that makes pika loses to a lower tier.

 

[SheerMadness]

Yup must ban hyrule. Can't have Fox being good vs Pika there.

That would ruin everyone's fun.

 

[thegreginator]

Guys saying that Hyrule allowed A$ to go Link in a couple of instances where he wouldn't have otherwise is not proof that Hyrule promotes character variety. It is one example of Hyrule promoting character variety. This example must be weighed against all the examples of DL (and other stages) allowing people to use more characters that they otherwise wouldn't (eg. Sensei using Kirby and Falcon only on Dreamland). I haven't looked at the data but anyone engaging in this argument should look at the overall picture rather than focusing on one instance. My hunch is that DL promotes more character variety than Hyrule.

Let's also be careful about saying that Hyrule favors low tiers more than DL. Below is my list of low tiers (C Tier and below), ordered from the biggest boost on Hyrule to the biggest boost on DL (+2 is the biggest Hyrule boost, 0 is neutral, -2 is the biggest Dreamland boost).

+2 Link
+1 Ness
(0) Luigi
-1 DK
-1 Jiggs
-2 Yoshi
-2 Samus

Total: -3 (the more negative the number, the more DL favors low tier characters).

I would be curious to see other peoples' lists, as I think most would lean toward DL.

Also it should be noted that this type of list is merely theory, and should not (by itself) be used to argue for or against Hyrule. To make a real argument we need to focus on what happens in practice and look at the data.

 

[clubbadubba]

^^Greg that would involve some serious theorizing about tiers which we are sooooo bad at getting anything close to consensus on. Besides, ban hyrule people will skew their list towards DL and keep hyrule people will skew their list towards hyrule, regardless of what they actually think.

Can we just let this thread die until we test out some new rulesets? All this theorizing is useless as people are just going to adapt theories that argue for their viewpoint because everyone is too proud to use data objectively.

 

[Karajan]

If you want a better metagame, more character diversity, and a more balanced ruleset, make the first match be a random character ditto.

 

[¨°PÞ-§°¨ Bane]

If you want a better metagame, more character diversity, and a more balanced ruleset, make the first match be a random character ditto.

(ninja future edit! looking back on this i was drunk posting and i regret being this mean. sorry!)

 

[Cobrevolution]

it would irrefutably increase character diversity, though

 

[Karajan]

you are unbelievably good at consistently contributing nothing of value to any conversation ever

You guys are ****ing idiots. Don't bother coming to apex; no KB adapter for you. Why not point out whatever flaw you think there is with the method I suggested instead?

 

[Olikus]

Bane doesnt do it that way. He calls people names instead.

(Horrified personal experience, shrug)

 

[clubbadubba]

Smash has lots of customization options so there is no "correct" rule-set by which to play the game. Which means we get to pick a rule-set that tests the skills that we as a community deem most valuable. Is our opinion on what is most valuable "correct"? No, of course not, but it does satisfy our communities criteria of a good rule-set. Since our community is the only group of people playing the game, satisfying our own criteria for a rule-set is all that matters.

We do not value the ability to win random character dittos as much as we value the ability to beat someone else's best character with your best character. Neither is the "correct" rule-set, but as a community we are going to go with the one that has the most value to us. More character diversity would certainly be achieved, but I would disagree on it being a better metagame and a more balanced rule-set. Players would have to spread their time playing 12 characters instead of 2 characters. This would greatly decrease the expertise one can achieve with one character, making the overall metagame significantly worse. In addition, players would only learn the ditto match-up with each character. As far as balanced, I would highly disagree. The more time you spend playing a ditto, the more better you get. So if the gods of randomness decide to pick Yoshi dittos, it favors the player who has spent more time playing Yoshi dittos. Even if you decide you personally will just play every character evenly so you one of your characters aren't left behind, you will inevitably have to play a ditto against an opponent who has allotted a disproportionate amount of time to that particular ditto. I would say that in this case randomness does not equal balance.

There you go karajan, a serious response.

 

[M!nt]

Yeah, what an asshole!

 

[¨°PÞ-§°¨ Bane]

(same as above edit)

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

You guys are ****ing idiots. Don't bother coming to apex; no KB adapter for you. Why not point out whatever flaw you think there is with the method I suggested instead?

He uses a KB adapter as a way to taunt people

N64 threads, 2013