STAGE SELECTION POLL - Neutral / Counterpick / Ban

[Shears]

Ultimately my point is I don't think tornados are so much worse than the barrel or wind, so I don't think that alone is anywhere near sufficient for banning hyrule.
PS Tornados can break the infmaous left edge stall. Without tornados Hyrule would be even MORE broken.

I agree with this and that is why my vote is towards keeping Hyrule neutral.

The difference between gimmicks and items is that we can't ban all gimmicks (I would support this), so we need to decide which gimmicks are tolerable and which are not.

I believe this is the whole point of the thread. It's more than just banning Hyrule because it has a tornado, its establishing what the ground rules for neutral are, then seeing if Hyrule fits into that model. It's like the planets, Pluto was one, then they redefined what a planet is (not with the intention of getting rid of Pluto), and when they did Pluto no longer fit the model and is no longer a planet. Gimmicks, hazards, whatever you want to call them, are inevitable in 64 unless we as a community go for the gameshark idea. Since these things will exist, the objective is to maximize neutrality while minimizing these things. The skill of effectively using these things is separate from the skill of single-handedly demolishing your opponent, which to me is the focus of the game. The skill of getting a hammer is minimal but has a severe outcome on the game, in perspective, the skill of avoiding a tornado is minimal but having a tornado swoop in a kill you is severe. These skills no longer create an opponent-opponent conflict, they create an opponent-stage conflict and since that will exist in 64, the focus is to make the smallest opponent-stage conflict possible.

 

[The Star King]

Dreamland wind is pretty bad for characters like YOSHI or SAMUS because it screws up lots of shieldbreaks. They don't even have rapid a's to help =(.

Rapid taunt cancels should work just as well.

Stand with me - neigh - stand with AMERICA and vote NO on Hyrule neutrality.

I'm not a horse dude. sorry I thought it was funny

 

[KnitePhox]

stand with AMERICA and vote NO on Hyrule neutrality.

i don't think ill ever fully understand identifying with regions

 

[mixa]

Dreamland wind is pretty bad for characters like YOSHI or SAMUS because it screws up lots of shieldbreaks. They don't even have rapid a's to help =(.

I made it happen with dark Samus. Mash A, it should work.

 

[thegreginator]

I don't understand the focus on nados/hazards. Nado's suck, but they are definitely not the worst thing about Hyrule. The worst thing about Hyrule is the ****ing left side. If one player stays on the left side, it limits the approach options of the other player and creates an unfair advantage for the left side camper. We should have a level playing field (both metaphorically and literally), not a playing field that gives an unfair advantage to a camper. Rewarding a camper also makes for games that are boring to watch and play. It also makes games go longer. We keep talking about subjectivity but the FACTS say that Hyrule matches are 1 minute 14 seconds longer than DL matches. That's a lot of ****ing time, people.

The second worst part of Hyrule is the ability for running away and not approaching by platform camping, staying in the tent, etc.

Tornadoes are maybe the third worst thing about Hyrule. Also tornadoes are definitely worse than the wind or barrel.

 

[madrush21]

Did anyone ever consider my idea of leaving the stagelist the way it is and giving the winner of the first match a stage ban? This way people who are against hyrule still don't have to play on it.

I Think this might keep both sides happy. Wondering what people think

Alternatively we could make zebes and saffron CP and give the winner of the first match 2 bans. Might make tournaments more interesting.

 

[Sedda]

What about limiting left-side hyrule camping to 5-10 seconds? I think Brawl did something similar with MK in certain stages. If anyone knows how that works maybe someone could try it (?)

 

[MrMarbles]

Did anyone ever consider my idea of leaving the stagelist the way it is and giving the winner of the first match a stage ban? This way people who are against hyrule still don't have to play on it.

I Think this might keep both sides happy. Wondering what people think

Alternatively we could make zebes and saffron CP and give the winner of the first match 2 bans. Might make tournaments more interesting.

i'm in support of that. I love hyrule and would be really discouraged to see it go. with this rule people who don't like hyrule don't have to play it and people who enjoy it and don't abuse it's campy potential can still play it. A big argument i keep hearing is that outsiders who watch tourney streams are put off by the long campy matches on hyrule, but i have always found that the most exciting and combo heavy matches occur on hyrule by people who don't abuse its campy potential. But with the rule Madrush suggested we would see less matches on hyrule, and WAY less campy matches on hyrule. Not to mention we would see PC and CJ counterpicked more often which is cool.

Is it a perfect solution that will completely fix this long match problem? No but it would drastically reduce the number of campy matches on hyrule and it will leave both parties at least mostly satisfied

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Did anyone ever consider my idea of leaving the stagelist the way it is and giving the winner of the first match a stage ban? This way people who are against hyrule still don't have to play on it.

I Think this might keep both sides happy. Wondering what people think

Alternatively we could make zebes and saffron CP and give the winner of the first match 2 bans. Might make tournaments more interesting.

Or we could have 5 neturals, (HC, PC, DL, CJ, and one of these two, probably SC)

and have 2 bans?

 

[The Star King]

I would rather have Zebes than Saffron City

 

[mixa]

I would rather have full power sk than sk (weak version)

 

[Shears]

i know sensei would agree with me so im just gonna say it. Saffron should be CP, if not neutral

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Blood peach liked both choices, pick one wut

 

[bloodpeach]

My official stance is CONGO ONLY

 

[Han Solo]

Oh my Isai, Congo neutral. Dreamland, Hyrule CP. It's perfect.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

It would force people to play the stage....
....
....
....
for once

 

[prisonchild]

i'm the only one who has to squint the whole time on congo?

 

[jimmyjoe]

I actually like that winner of the first game gets a ban idea, or the 2 ban idea if we add the extra Counter pick stages.

 

[Doomolish]

The custom stage list favours DL. If you don't like Hyrule it then strike it, then SD if the opponent picks it and go to DL again on last match. You doesn't need to ban Hyrule.

 

[Fireblaster]

The custom stage list favours DL. If you don't like Hyrule it then strike it, then SD if the opponent picks it and go to DL again on last match. You doesn't need to ban Hyrule.

"If you don't like a stage, then just give up and lose when it's counterpicked"

Thanks for the solid advice bro, I'll consider it.

No, I lied. I won't consider it because it's ****ing stupid.

 

[clubbadubba]

Don't be such a wuss. Real men forfeit games on hyrule and win all their sets by going 2-0 on DL

 

[thegreginator]

Updated results (also in first post).

The weighted results are starting to diverge from the normal results, so below is a summary of what changes as we go from unweighted --> weighted (weighting takes into account ELO ranking and ELO games and excludes those with no ELO games).

Dreamland

• Neutral: 89% --> 96%
• Ban: 7% --> 0%

Peach's Castle

• Counterpick: 60% --> 55%
• Ban: 20% --> 26%

Congo Jungle

• Neutral: 62% --> 67%
• Ban: 18% --> 12%

Hyrule

• Counterpick: 29% --> 24%
• Ban: 38% --> 42%

The takeaway is that better players favor DL and Congo more and Peach's and Hyrule less.

 

[clubbadubba]

Btw I think sensei changed his mind to ban on hyrule, though he can verify this.

 

[prisonchild]

just a question - why does a character's elo rating matter? obviously there has to be some cutoff because you want active players but c'mon.

this is like having a presidential election and your vote counting for more if you have a higher salary. it's not democracy at all. why open up a public poll just to not count half the people's votes?

 

[clubbadubba]

Disregarding people without ELO ratings is the same as disregarding people who don't go to tournaments. Rule-set will never apply to them. Its like having a presidential election and telling people in Russia they don't get a vote.

 

[prisonchild]

he disregards anyone with an ELO rating that has an asterisk, ie people that have gone to tournaments just not that many. the rule-set will still apply to them when they enter tourneys.

I think all these polls/analytics are a little futile tbh. i'm still for leaving it up to the discretion of the TO.

 

[clubbadubba]

I don't believe that is true, bane is included in his weighted poll analysis and he only has 2 ELO games.

 

[thegreginator]

Anyone who has played an ELO game is included. The weighted score is calculated such that ELO ranking has a 50% contribution and number of ELO games has a 50% contribution, so people that go to a lot of tournaments but don't place well still have a big say. Changing this 50/50 distribution doesn't have much of an effect anyways since number of games and ELO ranking are pretty highly correlated.

 

[Florence]

Uh small confusion on the ELO thing. I am Revan, it's just this account is older than the name.

 

[Cobrevolution]

oh you're revan? i couldn't tell from your sig, thought you were someone else

 

[Florence]

oh you're revan? i couldn't tell from your sig, thought you were someone else

Directed to thegreginator. Hence "the ELO thing".

 

[Deathconsciousness]

wtf no congo sucks what's wrong with you people.

 

[bloodpeach]

death what part of PA are you from?

 

[Deathconsciousness]

death what part of PA are you from?

Poconos

 

[ballin4life]

ban hyrule

6 stocks

also ban pika and kirby

or consider turning on items

 

[Barbs Jr]

Pika/jiggly only. Saffron City. Pokeballs on very high.

the only logical ruleset

 

[Zenyore]

it's kind of silly to call Hyrule a neutral stage if you ask me. it gives a huge advantage to some characters and huge disadvantages to others. dl is a lot more even, but people don't want matches to take too long. so they want to stick to the stage that favours high tiers...

fk off m8

 

[The Star King]

"Location: I was Z this entire time."

Haha nice try buddy, you wish. You'll never be as great as the Z.

 

[thegreginator]

All the new Peru vids are yet more evidence of why Hyrule should be banned. High level play is supposed to be exciting to watch, but those matches were seriously painful.

 

[Yobolight]

PERU TOURNAMENT takeaways

The most recent Peru tournament really demonstrates that Hyrule in no way promotes character variety.

We already know that Peru's best Link player( PedroMiguel) and its best DK player (Stradon) went exclusively Pikachu in tournament

Just watching the videos posted it is almost exclusively Pikach dittos right from the very start of the tournament with an occasional Kirby/Fox.

The lack of Dreamland in the Peruvian has caused the metagame to become Pikachu centered because of the removal of Pika's only even MU (Falcon on Dreamland)

I don't think character variety is a good criteria for deciding whether keep a stage legal but Hyrule certainly doesn't promote it.

Also the Peruvian tournament had many matches significantly over 10 minutes, tons of camping.

CAMPING EVERYWHERE
camping top platform
camping tent
camping left slope
triangle camping

Furthermore crucial stocks were decided by random fast tornado. Some people claim that those are easily avoidable, tough case to make when top players from the Hyrule centralized Peruvian metagame still can't avoid them

Conclusion: Hyrule is a ridiculous stage that needs to be banned.