Stage Legality Speculations

[rikochet]

Arena Ferox for doubles

 

[D-idara]

Due to popular demand from my counterpart thread on the Wii U discussion board (which can be found here: http://smashboards.com/threads/stage-legality-speculations.353338), this thread has been created to speculate the potential legality of each 3DS stage in tournament play. Note that this thread will not be about discussing potential new stages. I would personally like to discuss only stages that have already been confirmed through official announcements, and how likely they are to be used in the tournament scene. I'll go ahead and post all the currently confirmed 3DS stages, and will update this post accordingly as we get new confirmations.

Stage List
Battlefield

Speculated Legality Status: Starter
Reasoning: Do I really need to give one? It's arguably the most neutral stage in all of the Smash games to date; to argue any other status would be highly unorthodox.

Final Destination (and its variants) (Wii U version depicted below)

Speculated Legality Status: Starter
Reasoning: Like Battlefield, it's been a starter stage in every Smash game to date. It does favor characters with a good ground game or campy projectiles, but most matchups here are usually pretty fair overall. The variations of Final Destination, as seen in the For Glory mode, seem to have a few non-aesthetic differences like size and blast zone areas, but we'll really need to see these in action before we can really give a definitive answer, though my guess is that they'll probably all be legal starters as well.

Boxing Ring (Wii U version depicted below)

Speculated Legality Status: Banned/Counterpick
Reasoning: Here's an interesting stage. Judging by the gameplay footage we've seen thus far, it looks like it'll be a very large horizontal stage, so characters with strong vertical finishers seem like they'll have a bit of an advantage. The ropes bordering the main stage also have some interesting properties, giving characters who jump off of them a higher jump, though I'm not entirely sure how much this'll affect a match. It also appears to be a walkoff, so that may be something going against its tournament viability. Overall, there are quite a few elements at work here which may change the game up a bit too much. I'd personally like to advocate for giving it a trial run at the beginning of the tournament scene, but odds are in favor of this one getting a ban.

3D Land

Speculated Legality Status: Banned
Reasoning: This stage, like Mushroomy Kingdom in Brawl, is a scrolling stage with some pretty nasty hazards in the latter half of the stage. From looking at the footage we have, the stage scrolls way too fast for any form of competitive fighting to take place, not to mention some of those hazards look pretty tough to avoid and have some decent knockback to them. Pretty much a guaranteed ban.

Rainbow Road

Speculated Legality Status: Banned/Counterpick
Reasoning: This is the Mute City of Smash 4. A transforming stage with a small center platform and a few minor hazards. Overall, these stages tend to be banned more often than not. There are a few small tournaments that choose to keep Mute City and Port Town legal counterpicks, but for a more unified ruleset, I'd personally place this one in the banned category.

Jungle Japes

Speculated Legality Status: Banned
Reasoning: This stage has been banned in every iteration of Smash thus far. To quote the Smash Wiki, "The stage is currently banned in Melee, due to it favoring characters with good jumping and projectile abilities, gimping potential on the left side of the stage, and overly powerful stage hazard of the Klaptrap and its incredibly high ceiling, giving a disproportionate advantage to horizontal finishers. The stage is also banned in the Unity Ruleset of Brawl, for the same reasons, though it has seen use in experimental rulesets." And to quote Smasher D1, "That's banned already! THAT'S BANNED ALREADY!!"

Gerudo Valley

Speculated Legality Status: Banned
Reasoning: Oy, where do I start with this one? First, it's a walkoff. That right there is an issue. Second, that bridge in the middle breaks (not sure if by damage or just randomly,) which just disrupts any combat happening on it. Also of note, the reveal trailer showed some kind of ice hazard on the right side of the stage, though we haven't confirmed whether that as part of the stage or simply an item. Regardless, there's too much going against this stage for it to be considered legal.

Spirit Train

Speculated Legality Status: Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: This stage seems like it might be an early ban, but hear me out on this one. First off, the stage isn't as big as it may appear at first. The platforms aren't too close to the blast zones, and the only hazard we've seen thus far is the Big Blue-esque road of death on the sides of the stage. Edgeguarding looks like it'll be just as important here as most other legal stages, and I honestly don't see too much wrong with the stage that could create some bad competitive scenarios. Feel free to argue with me if you disagree, you might change my mind.

Prism Tower

Speculated Legality Status: Counterpick
Reasoning: Structurally, this stage seems nearly identical to Brawl's Delfino Plaza, a traditionally counterpicked stage. Depending on how the stage transformations play out, it could end up falling into starter or even banned categories, though both options seem a bit unlikely.

Arena Ferox

Speculated Legality Status: Counterpick/Starter
Reasoning: This is probably one of the most neutral stages that have been revealed for the 3DS thus far. Even so, some of the platforms in the transformations are placed pretty high, and may cause it to be placed under counterpick territory. Then again, the 3DS version of Smash seems to have a severe lack of starter stages, so this may have to fill the gap.

Reset Bomb Forest

Speculated Legality Status: Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: Judging by the image above, this seems like a pretty neutral stage. A bit on the tall side, but overall, pretty standard counterpick material. However, once the aftermath transformation sets in, this stage's platforms go a bit crazy. I'm not sure if it's so bad that it'll necessitate a ban, but we're gonna want to keep our eyes peeled for more information on this stage.

Tortimer Island

Speculated Legality Status: Banned
Reasoning: Oh look, another walkoff. How lovely. Add to the fact that this stage changes itself every time its chosen and there's literally nothing else going on in this stage, and it's pretty much a certified ban.

Balloon Fight

Speculated Legality Status: Banned
Reasoning: So this is a walkoff where walking off to the left and right edges of the screen does not kill the opponent. Odd, but would give this stage a chance...if it weren't for the fact that there's flippers everywhere on this stage, there's a rather annoying hazard towards the center pit, and making meteor smashes and vertical finishers the only things that matter on this stage. It definitely constitutes a ban.

Living Room

Speculated Legality Status: Banned
Reasoning: Firstly, it's a walk off, and a rather simple one at that. Secondly, some of those blocks near the center look like they're gonna give campers too much of an edge, and potential wall infinites seem pretty easy to pull off here. Also note how much easier it is to land a vertical finisher here than a horizontal one. Definitely will be banned.

Find Mii

Speculated Legality Status: Counterpick...ish
Reasoning: Speaking only on the stage structure itself, this looks pretty simplistic overall. It looks like characters with a meteor smash could pose an issue, but I don't think that'd be enough of a reason for a ban. What really makes me unsure of what to label this stage is because of that stage boss. We have no idea if his addition is merely cosmetic, works as a normal stage hazard, or outright takes focus away from the match, though judging by the video the stage appeared in, he doesn't look like he'll pose too much of an issue. Labeling this a counterpick just to be on the safe side.

Tomodachi

Speculated Legality Status: ???
Reasoning: The image you currently see before you is literally the only footage we currently have of this stage. As the image is very zoomed in, we can't really tell anything about the stage, making giving it a rating pretty much impossible at the moment. If I had to guess though, this stage might be a reskinned Luigi's Mansion from Brawl, which would probably constitute a ban for the same reasons Luigi's Mansion is banned. However, I don't have anything to back this up, so for the time being, this stage will remain unrated.

Tortimer Island banned? It's not a walk-off, it was water, and the fact that it generates the platforms randomly just makes it more exciting without hindering gameplay.

 

[Deleted member]

The two threads have the exact same name, so I don't know in which one I'm posting, anyway, Boxing Ring is BANNED, but it will be fun to play on friendies

 

[LancerStaff]

The two threads have the exact same name, so I don't know in which one I'm posting, anyway, Boxing Ring is BANNED, but it will be fun to play on friendies

It's in both versions anyway.

 

[Aninymouse]

The two threads have the exact same name, so I don't know in which one I'm posting, anyway, Boxing Ring is BANNED, but it will be fun to play on friendies

The boxing ring will be the best HP Battle stage

 

[Yodude57]

I'm not to worried about the legality of the stages on the 3ds version because they don't seemed to be designed for tournament play due to the more gimmicky stages (meaning in a positive way). While on the other hand the wii u stages are in general more made for this due to their simpler designs (nothing against that). I'm very happy for this because I felt that brawls stages wre kind of bland and lifeless whereas on the new 3ds one their filled with much more variety and life. I would love to hear what you have to say to my comment. I hope I don't come off as hateful because I think the wii u stages are still pretty sweet!

 

[Yodude57]

I'm not to worried about the legality of the stages on the 3ds version because they don't seemed to be designed for tournament play due to the more gimmicky stages (meaning in a positive way). While on the other hand the wii u stages are in general more made for this due to their simpler designs (nothing against that). I'm very happy for this because I felt that brawls stages wre kind of bland and lifeless whereas on the new 3ds one their filled with much more variety and life. I would love to hear what you have to say to my comment. I hope I don't come off as hateful because I think the wii u stages are still pretty sweet!

Sorry I also forgot to mention the fact that the wii u has a larger screen while the 3ds screen is smaller. Making it extremely unlikely for tournament play and the fact that during the tournament they would passing around 3ds's and other madness that would occur. I'm not saying that this is outside the realm of possibility but it is extremely unlikely in my opinion.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I can respect the attitude that every stage should be tested, but if any stage has a floor (i.e. lacks a lower blast zone) it really can't be considered for competitive play. Meteor smashes and edge-guards are very important methods of getting kills. If a stage where a character like Marth can't get kills like he usually does you've basically neutered his ability to function. Peach, Fox (shine sniping) and most characters with difficulty netting out-right KOs all would also be severely hurt, and not being able to guard an edge hurts every character (though some disproportionately more than others, making it unfair.)

 

[NocturnalQuill]

Tortimer Island banned? It's not a walk-off, it was water, and the fact that it generates the platforms randomly just makes it more exciting without hindering gameplay.

Random anything is heavily frowned upon in competitive. Different platform arrangements may favor different characters, and the fact that you can't know which you'll get until the match starts makes it even worse.

On a related note, boxing ring is 99% banned now.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well I'd better join in this discussion as it's kinda my thing.

While I agree that all stages are worth testing, it is worthy to consider that with Saukrai doing most of his balance testing on an FD stage and with FD being the main stage in For Glory there needs to *shudders* be serious consideration for only using FD as a stage.

Yeah that hurt me to type as I've long supported having a large variety of stages but having that single stage does come with its own set of advantages as well. It's something we should think about for the 3DS version if we really do have a limited number of reasonable stages. It's either limit them excessively or allow a bit more wack into play. I guess it comes down to preference.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Well I'd better join in this discussion as it's kinda my thing.

While I agree that all stages are worth testing, it is worthy to consider that with Saukrai doing most of his balance testing on an FD stage and with FD being the main stage in For Glory there needs to *shudders* be serious consideration for only using FD as a stage.

Yeah that hurt me to type as I've long supported having a large variety of stages but having that single stage does come with its own set of advantages as well. It's something we should think about for the 3DS version if we really do have a limited number of reasonable stages. It's either limit them excessively or allow a bit more wack into play. I guess it comes down to preference.

Since when has the competitive community ever followed Sakurai's lead?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Since when has the competitive community ever followed Sakurai's lead?

Since when has Sakurai acknowledged we exist in any positive way until now? It's just a random thought, I already brought up a big thread to discuss it elsewhere if your interested. It's just something to think about.

 

[ACDC]

from what i've seen there is a design of Arena Ferox that has a wall, in fact, it is the one showcased on this pic. insta ban if you ask me,

I disagree about the insta ban, just look at melee's pokemon stadium. I'd lean more towards counterpick from the information we have right now

 

[OptimistNic]

Remember that wall infinites are no more? Sakurai made a post saying how consecutive jabs will now end with a finishing blow.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Remember that wall infinites are no more? Sakurai made a post saying how consecutive jabs will now end with a finishing blow.

We might still have jab canceling.

 

[mimgrim]

So having taken a closer in depth analysis of Spirit Tracks and even writing an analysis on it, I would love to see the stage as a counter pick.

It's like a less extreme version of Big Blue, camping still seems possible but not to the extent on Big Blue, more like air stalling there. But nothing seems to extreme from it. You only seem to have one floating platform at a time, and the detaching and reattaching cart doesn't have anything drastic either. The enemy trains could have a big effect though, I'm not sure on them.

But knowing the community, it's probably gonna be lol nope.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Okay guys, we have gameplay footage of a lot of stages, let's bring this back to life. What is everyone thinking?

 

[mimgrim]

I can't comment on the 3DS stages beyond what I already have. I never got a chance to play the 3DS version.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I can't comment on the 3DS stages beyond what I already have. I never got a chance to play the 3DS version.

Why not watch all the videos from it? I'm seeing easyily legal Arena Ferox and Prism Tower, all of the others I worry on. MAYBE Reset Forest depending on a LOT of game factors we can't know till release.

 

[Ginger Hail]

With swimming seemingly gone, Tortimer Island doesn't seem so "walk-off"ish now. The stage's size and random layout still work against it though.

 

[LiteralGrill]

With swimming seemingly gone, Tortimer Island doesn't seem so "walk-off"ish now. The stage's size and random layout still work against it though.

I must have missed something, how does the layout work? It's mostly flat so even with size it might still be possible, this one is definately on my unsure list till we get to play with it though.

 

[Ginger Hail]

I must have missed something, how does the layout work? It's mostly flat so even with size it might still be possible, this one is definately on my unsure list till we get to play with it though.

The stage has different possible layouts selected at random or generated randomly from the sound of it, kind of like how no two Tortimer Islands were the same in New Leaf.

 

[LiteralGrill]

The stage has different possible layouts selected at random or generated randomly from the sound of it, kind of like how no two Tortimer Islands were the same in New Leaf.

Interesting... Well, on that one I guess it just depends on how weird the random can get. Definitely something that needs testing.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Sorry for the double posts, but there's relevance. Tortimer's can spawn trees which can randomly drop healing fruit. Probably banned there.

 

[LancerStaff]

Sorry for the double posts, but there's relevance. Tortimer's can spawn trees which can randomly drop healing fruit. Probably banned there.

Unless they go away when food is turned off.

 

[Ginger Hail]

Unless they go away when food is turned off.

If Peach can randomly pull out items with items off, then I think the fruit will still spawn. Plus, they might be considered different than regular food since Isabelle seems to be set up to throw out the fruits from Animal Crossing as well.

 

[LancerStaff]

If Peach can randomly pull out items with items off, then I think the fruit will still spawn. Plus, they might be considered different than regular food since Isabelle seems to be set up to throw out the fruits from Animal Crossing as well.

The completely unique food items on Icicle Mountain (Brawl) go away when food is turned off.

 

[Ginger Hail]

The completely unique food items on Icicle Mountain (Brawl) go away when food is turned off.

Interesting, I never played that stage enough I suppose.

I still think the randomness of the stage's layout may be enough to get people to want it banned. We still don't know if they are pre-set layouts that are chosen at random or if the layout is generated randomly, but I feel like the former is more likely and would make the stage more likely to be accepted by the community.

 

[Reila]

Lol... Most of the cool looking stages are (likely) banned.

 

[Pieman0920]

I may not have watched enough videos with Tortimer's island, but aren't the layouts pretty much cosmetic? Like, the trees won't always be in the same place, but they just end up being random platforms. The fruit, if it can't be turned off like the little food balloons from Smashville, also seems really kind of minor to make it banned.

Still, apparently, coconuts can sometimes be spawned from the trees, and they don't act like food items, but rather can be thrown. I also haven't seen the shark come into play yet.

 

[Daelor]

Lol... Most of the cool looking stages are (likely) banned.

Do you understand how competitive play works?

 

[Reila]

Do you understand how competitive play works?

I do know pretty well how "competitive play" works. I was just making an observation and I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

 

[LiteralGrill]

The completely unique food items on Icicle Mountain (Brawl) go away when food is turned off.

But on Green Green the apples still show up weather food is on or not! :O

I do know pretty well how "competitive play" works. I was just making an observation and I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

It's true sadly. I admit, if people would come play I'd be WAY more open with stages. The apples might be on a timer or something for example, and you could plan for them. Most people just refuse to have that kind of interaction. We might get lucky and have a couple odd stages out of necessity to have a decent sized stage list.

 

[Nstinct]

Speaking of which, is there any chance of more stages being revealed, or does 15 sound about right?

There were well over 15 new stages in Brawl and quite a few melee stages. The 3DS doesn't have as much space, but I assume it'll have at least 25 stages. We'd all be quite disappointed with merely 2 song choices on as few as 15 stages.

 

[LiteralGrill]

There were well over 15 new stages in Brawl and quite a few melee stages. The 3DS doesn't have as much space, but I assume it'll have at least 25 stages. We'd all be quite disappointed with merely 2 song choices on as few as 15 stages.

I seriously agree and hope we get at least a few more choices.

I really do think that we could have quite a few more stages if we were lenient though... It'll all depend on TO philosophy

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Green Hill Zone,Isle Delfino, Fountain of Dream,Big Blue, Jungle Japes, Wario Ware, Pictochat, Game and Watch(forgot the title), and the Wind Waker stage for 3DS, so that the 3DS can still have melee stages department (and Hyrule Temple can be on Wii U)

 

[Nstinct]

The Competitive legal stages we want to return to Smash 4:
-From Brawl:
Delfino Plaza
Yoshi Island
Battleship Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium
WarioWare
Smashville

-From Melee
Fountain of Dreams
Yoshi Story
Dream Land

 

[Deleted member]

The Competitive legal stages we want to return to Smash 4:
-From Melee
Fountain of Dreams
Yoshi Story
Dream Land

ALL THE BATTLEFIELDS
Just kidding; I'd love Yoshi's Story. Could Yoshi's Story have the Super Mario World theme that played on the other Yoshi stage in Melee as it's default track? I would bring up the fact that Dream Land is a past stage in Melee, but they brought back Jungle Japes, and that was a past stage in Brawl, so I guess that argument no longer makes sense. Pokemon Stadium is a Melee stage though, unless you meant to say Pokemon Stadium 2?

Yoshi's Island 64 Please Sakurai

The Competitive legal stages we want to return to Smash 4:
-From Brawl:
WarioWare

Um, have you been playing too much Project M? WarioWare is anything but neutral in vBrawl. Microgames.

 

[Deleted member]

EDIT: Aw crap, double posted when I wanted to point out WarioWare isn't neutral. Why is there no "delete" button?

 

[Nstinct]

Why is there no "delete" button?

ikr

Pokemon Stadium is a Melee stage though, unless you meant to say Pokemon Stadium 2?

Um, have you been playing too much Project M? WarioWare is anything but neutral in vBrawl. Microgames.

Yes and no. Whichever one is more legal tournament-wise.
and
Yes.