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Stage Discussion

rosetta_stoned

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 11, 2015
Messages
75
Was surprised to see a thread of this sort doesn't exist. Would like to have a discussion on starter and striking stages. What stages do you like / hate as a ness player and why?

I feel if omega stages are not in the map pool ness doesn't have great options outside of maybe striking kongo64 but maybe im wrong. Sure we can benefit from the low ceiling on t&c, smashville, and halbred but these maps kinda suck for our recovery and i feel ness would benefit more on maps with closer blast zones on the horizontal plane. We can exploit some of delfinos shenanigans but, so can pretty much everyone.

I find myself banning and choosing stages based more so on what might be good or bad for my opponent. I like certain omega stages like eldin bridge, super mario, wrecking crew, onett, for the opportunity for a double pkt2 mostly and i tend to try and stay away from maps with platforms.

Discuss.
 
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AwkwardNess

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Obviously Duck Hunt is every Ness's bane. With the ducks messing with PK Thunder (although they won't go offstage) and the high ceiling, Ness should NEVER go here if he has a choice.
Platforms are IMO pretty great for Ness. Most opponents do terribly when Ness is below them due to the godly Uair, and in some match ups you'll definitely want to be able to refresh your jumps. This is why Smashville and T&C are pretty solid for Ness, albeit a bit overused. I don't really see what you mean about those stages being bad for our recovery; sure, we can't Thunderbounce, but it's perfectly fine for recovering, and the occasional platform gives us more wiggle room.
I will agree with you about Ness preferring close horizontal BZs. Uair is great, but it can't do everything for us. Ness is great for edgeguarding, and I get a lot more KOs from edgeguards than Uairs.

EDIT: Looking back at this, I was an idiot for the most part.
 
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Earthbound360

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I actually disagree with DH being bad. The platforms are non-intrusive, and I personally hate platforms for Ness.
His uair is good, but it's not long ranged and too quick. The people that like platforms are those with long range, fast uairs, like Falcon and Luigi. They're much better at sharking from beneath.

Also, Ness doesn't care about the top blastzone as much as you'd think. Sure uair gets hurt by a high ceiling, but he's also got bthrow, bair, and dsmash, all of which are horizontal KO options.

Also on DH, you can reliably wallbounce for recovery.

I personally think FD and Smashville are his best. On Smashville, you can get a legitimate 0-death KO if you fthrow someone when the platform is all the way to the side lol. FD is good because of its lack of platforms and open space allowing Ness to fly about with his aerials.

When it comes to Omegas, I like Kalos and Galaxy if they're legal (they're not in my region though). Both allow Ness to wall bounce, and the walls can't be used for wall jumps. This gives him an unfair advantage like that lol.
Out of the omegas legal in my region, I like Wii Fit Studio because once again, walls. It's also harder to get stage spiek gimped when there are vertical walls on the stage.
 

rosetta_stoned

Smash Apprentice
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Feb 11, 2015
Messages
75
@ AwkwardNess AwkwardNess

Smashville and t&c aren't terrible for recovery and i didnt mean to suggest that because we we cant wallbounce its automatically bad. Just those thin stages -while rare - can be a bit glitchy sometimes and bounce you off helplessly to your demise at certain angles. Other stages can be more forgiving for sweetspotting the ledge is all.

@ Earthbound360 Earthbound360

Interesting insight about duck hunt stage. I still hate it though its not a stage i would prob ban but i sigh reluctantly if its picked. My pkt juggles on occassion have definaty been thwarted by those maniacal ducks so i cant but help hold a grudge. I love those high ceilings when im pitted up against a pika or fox though. Nothing like making a character that already has to work for their ko's work a little harder
 

MrWhYYZ

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DH is my favorite stage for Ness. The top blastzone may be high but it also has the shortest side blastzone iirc. You can wallbounce, you can PK-T harass while in that tree on the left side, you can PK-T harass while using the dog to make it harder to punish you for it. (When there is only one duck on screen kill it and then do a PK-T, the duck will fall and as soon as it hits the ground the dog will pop-up lifting you up and down making it hard to dodge the PK-T and punish you.) You can use the patches of grass to mask "random" f-smashes and PK-fires to potenial steal stocks and because your hidden it's harder to react and punish.

I don't like to many BF because Ness doesn't have good tools to come down. Even though he has killer aerials and can really benefit from them. I would sooner play Lylat Cruise instead now that the ledge has been fixed (Sorta)

Don't like T&C. It has the lowest ceiling and Ness only has U-air to kill upwards. Most other characters have U-smash or other moves tat kill upward to work a lot better.

Smashville/FD are pretty neutral imo although Smashville might be slightly better in certain match-ups because of the moving platform.

Delfino/Castle siege shouldn't be legal stages.

Halberd and Kongo64 are okay-ish.
 

rosetta_stoned

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Delfino/Castle siege shouldn't be legal stages.
Ugh. Agreed. I'm not completely against the idea of a transitioning stage for competitive play if done right but.. c'mon. Halberd is the only one imo that fits the criteria in this game to be considered though still not a huge fan. Castle siege. Oh god castle siege. Besides being ridiculous for competitive play it is probably my least favourite stage in the game.

You guys are making me wanna give DH another chance... maybe lol
 
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rosetta_stoned

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Feb 11, 2015
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75
So i think most of us can agree battlefield is not ideal for ness. But to make the best of any situation what are some general or character specific tips you guys have on this stage? Is there any tricks ness players can use regarding bf's ledges or platforms?

Ill admit my personal experience with platforms -especially as ness - is lower than it should be. One thing i wanna experiment with is jab lock setups with platforms as i havn't really gotten into this yet.
 

Jonarobin

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I main Ness, and I'm not sure why platforms are bad for him. Personally I have more trouble with a lack of them, like on FD I have a hard time landing sometimes... I feel really vulnerable trying to land after double jumping to try to get on the offensive.

Any tips on landing? Fast fall to shield good? should I be practicing some kind of wavebounce type deals? I've never really touched those kinds of things.

I haven't focused on Ness too hard lately though. I'm rather lost on who I want to play in Smash, though...
 

Earthbound360

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I main Ness, and I'm not sure why platforms are bad for him. Personally I have more trouble with a lack of them, like on FD I have a hard time landing sometimes... I feel really vulnerable trying to land after double jumping to try to get on the offensive.

Any tips on landing? Fast fall to shield good? should I be practicing some kind of wavebounce type deals? I've never really touched those kinds of things.

I haven't focused on Ness too hard lately though. I'm rather lost on who I want to play in Smash, though...
Ness just can't take advantage of platforms as well. His uair while strong, isn't long enough range, and his SH doesn't support him doing those over and over again to maintain good pressure. Also, platforms make it harder to direct PKT into yourself and make it safe if you miss. Landing isn't helped by BF platforms much since you'll still get sharked and punished even if you land on a platform.

For landing, FF shield is usually good, bair is safe-ish on shield depending on the character. You real goal is to use your aerial mobility to juke your opponent and land somewhere they aren't.
 

rosetta_stoned

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Any tips on landing? Fast fall to shield good?
No, that is most certainly not a thing, and dont make the mistake of airdodging close to the ground either.

I like to stall with psi magnet or di to a ledge. I find it harder if they wait on the ground for you rather than jump up to meet you- unless your rosalina. Theres some situational intances where you can throw out a pk fire. Pkt, again while risky, has its uses occasionally where if your lucky they at least throw up their shield which usually gives enough time to land safely. Despite my best efforts though it is definitely a cumbersome task, especially against characters like sonic, cpt falcon, and yoshi.
 

Earthbound360

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No, that is most certainly not a thing, and dont make the mistake of airdodging close to the ground either.

I like to stall with psi magnet or di to a ledge. I find it harder if they wait on the ground for you rather than jump up to meet you- unless your rosalina. Theres some situational intances where you can throw out a pk fire. Pkt, again while risky, has its uses occasionally where if your lucky they at least throw up their shield which usually gives enough time to land safely. Despite my best efforts though it is definitely a cumbersome task, especially against characters like sonic, cpt falcon, and yoshi.
Uhmm... I don't mean to be that guy, but I kinda disagree with a lot of this post. Fast falling and landing allows you to access your safe ground evasion options quickly. Yeah, don't fall right on the guy if you can, but fall away from them, and don't give them the opportunity of hitting you out of an air dodge landing. This works even better if they're expecting you to air dodge or aerial them. It's like a different kind of tomahawk.

Secondly, I think PKF landings are incredibly unsafe considering the telegraphed startup and the long ending lag on landing.
PKT has too much startup. A lot of people will just jump up and uair you again on reaction.

Going for the ledge can be a safe option though.
 

rosetta_stoned

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@ Earthbound360 Earthbound360

Im not desputing ffing, i just think that if youve made it to the point that you can throw up your shield the hard part is already over.

I regret mentioning pkf as i agree is pretty unpractical. Cool if you disagree but i still feel pkt as a mixup from an appropriate height can help out if they are expecting something else and you are having a hard time landing. Let me just stress that it is super situational and Its not something i would try a second time against the same opponent however. Maybe that wasn't clear?
 

Earthbound360

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Well, I actually used PKT as a landing tool before, and I learned quickly how mediocre it really was. If you're at a height where you won't get punished for the startup, you'll get punished as you come down. If you're at a height where you can't get punished as you descend, you're probably at a height where you can be hit on startup.

You might be able to get away with it every now and then, but the reward isn't great and the risk is high. I personally recommend against it.
 

VentusNeos

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I'm a 3ds player so I don't really know the WiiU stages as much as everyone else does but here's my probably ignorant two sense.

Battlefield- It's okay for Ness. Since the stage is shaped how it is, you can kill people with stage spikes, while also being able to easily bounce and PK thunder again. The platforms typically mess up my PK fire l cancel but otherwise I like platforms and it makes it easy to trap opponents into a situation where they'd be eating a uair or even bthrow on the platforms. This also apples to Ness of course, and if you end up falling to a platform, the safest option imo would be dair canceling it straight into shield or an attack. However if you can, try and land at the ledge. Not his best stage but not his worst.

Duck Hunt- No words. I mean, it's fine and all. It's not too bad. In my limited experience I disliked the stage just in general, just because of the design layout. Otherwise it's not bad for Ness since he could get some early Bthrow kills.

Town & City- I actually really like this map, but that's probably just me. Falling u-air <3 but other then that, If you're comfortable with the stage I'd say it's an "okay" CP as long as your opponent doesn't get a distinctly bigger advantage from that map.

Delfino- Again, in my limited experience, this was actually my go-to stage for counterpicks. the three platform part (with the water) is good for me since I can bully people with PK thunder and since Ness can't really spike, I found this to be good since He relies on more kills from the top or side blastzones. The platforms on the neutral part of the stage in between transformations can be annoying but I got used to them. Personally I just generally like this stage. Especially when you have rage. Probably just me though

Smashville- I'll ban this when I can just because it's harder to stage spike or stage bounce for the second Pk thunder. That's really it.

Castle Seige- I haven't played on this stage yet but I liked it in Brawl and PM. Can't really say anything about it.

Lylat Cruise- They may have fixed the stage below but I still dislike the stage. I really hate the platform placement and the ledges just kinda seem off to me.

Kongo Jungle 64- Not enough experience with the stage. Plus it's still debatable if it's legal or not. High platforms make for some early Uair kills though.

FD/Omega- Go to a place where you can bounce off for the Pk thunder. Maybe go a place where you can do both, such as the Boxing ring. Other then that it's straight foward. Its literally just flat.

Haliberd- I like it. The transformation are nice and I have no real reasoning for why I like it or how it give a competitive edge. It's just a nice stage.



Did I miss any?
 

Earthbound360

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Lylat is still bad because of the platforms, and the rocking stage makes PKF unusable at certain points. Even though they "fixed" the bottom, Ness can still get gimped because of how PKT2 collides with terrain.

Kongo is fine for Ness, especially against characters who KO off the top.

T&C is alright. I always feel incredibly neutral on this stage. Just know it has a low-ish ceiling.

I actually kinda like Delfino and Castle Seige as long as your opponent doesn't have a greater advantage on it than you. Just now their weird quirks, like the suepr low cieling when Delfino transforms, and Castle Seige's janky transitions.

I usually don't like Halberd because of that long overhanging platform, as well as the fact that the cieling is so low, and Ness doesn't really live off of KOing off the top. It usually helps ROB and Luigi players more than you.
 

AwkwardNess

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So ultimately, it seems like Ness likes a stage where...
  • Horizontal BZs are close for throws, N/Bairs and edgeguards
  • Top BZ is close for Uair IF he'll benefit more from it than his opponent will
  • Thunderbounce is available
  • Edges are relatively easy to snap on to
  • Platforms... ??? Kinda depends on your Ness and your comfort level with them.
  • Stage spiking for edgeguards is easily possible
  • No ghetto stage tilting for realistic use of PK Fire
  • ...Walkoff is possible due to poor ability to Meteor Smash and powerful throws
Am I right, for the most part?
 

Earthbound360

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So ultimately, it seems like Ness likes a stage where...
  • Horizontal BZs are close for throws, N/Bairs and edgeguards
  • Top BZ is close for Uair IF he'll benefit more from it than his opponent will
  • Thunderbounce is available
  • Edges are relatively easy to snap on to
  • Platforms... ??? Kinda depends on your Ness and your comfort level with them.
  • Stage spiking for edgeguards is easily possible
  • No ghetto stage tilting for realistic use of PK Fire
  • ...Walkoff is possible due to poor ability to Meteor Smash and powerful throws
Am I right, for the most part?
Pretty much. Stage spikes and platforms are debatable/matchup dependent.
 

rosetta_stoned

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I actually kinda like Delfino and Castle Seige as long as your opponent doesn't have a greater advantage on it than you. Just now their weird quirks, like the suepr low cieling when Delfino transforms, and Castle Seige's janky transitions.
Castle siege is likely a decent map for ness. I think it has some of the closest horizontal bz's if im not mistaken as well. Who do you feel has the greater advantage on this map?
 

Earthbound360

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Castle siege is likely a decent map for ness. I think it has some of the closest horizontal bz's if im not mistaken as well. Who do you feel has the greater advantage on this map?
Who as in who? It varies of course. For example, I've learned not to take Dedede and Ike here.
 

'Nanas

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Mar 7, 2015
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I would say if your enemy can take advantage of ness' weight through small blast zones, keep away from small blast zones, but omewhere like delfino allows Ness to combo very well on most heavy characters who will take advantage of ness' petite stature and weight. I wouldn't take Ike to delfino because it aids his recivery and makes it very easy to kill ness. other than that I quite like Delfino
 

Asa

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smashville is by far my favorite stage as ness. early kills on the platform ( fthrow with rage can kill on the edge of the stage) - which also helps with recovery- as well as the blastzones make the stage awesome for him.

if i had to go with a cp (usually just go with the starters #japan) it'd be seige; 1st transofmation's layout is rather nice for ness, platforms are set up nice for pressure and extending strings; 2nd transformation has walkoffs and lots of space to camp; 3rd transformation is FD; transitions keep ness from getting gimped as often.

delfino and halberd are good for ness as well, but the jank is too storng on those stages for me to want to play on them.. you never know
 

Luco

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I'm a very strange and unusual Ness player in that I often do better on stages that I like, whether they're "better" for us or not... and my criteria for liking stages are more often music and aesthetic than actual points, which is funny. That said, I do often have at least a few solid reasons for why I like the stages I do, so I'll give you my list.

FD/Omegas: Can love them, can hate them, really depends on where I go. Unlike most people I LOVE the FD aesthetic, meaning while my opponent is blinded by the light I seem to be able to do well. Otherwise I tend to prefer darker stages like observatory. Also what EB360 said, if we can thunderbounce and the opponent can't wall jump, pick it. At this stage in the meta, most people don't know this stuff yet so aside from their recovery being worse, they might mis-judge it anyway. :laugh:

Battlefield: For some reason, I really dislike the stage. I think it has a lot to do with platforms. We don't take advantage of platforms as well as other characters - our Uair isn't fast and spammable, and we don't have much on the way down either to scare people. That said, if the opponent doesn't have any platform jank either then I love the stage, suddenly getting juggled becomes far less of an issue because we can control our jumps and reset to the ledge at will, and I love running off a platform and FF Bair into the ground if the opponent is under me. <3

SV: Generally my go-to pick. In Brawl everyone loved SV, now it seems everyone hates it but I still don't mind its music and I like the generally flat stage with the moving platform. SV at night is still pretty. :D Also F-throw on the platform can get you 0% kills. :DDDD

T&C: I LOVE THIS STAGE IT'S SO PRETTY THE MUSIC IS AWESOME AND THE PLATFORMS DON'T INTERFERE TOO MUCH AND HELP WITH BEING JUGGLED and aside from that there's not much I can say about the stage. :p

Duck Hunt: I would love this stage if it wasn't for the fact that the screen doesn't zoom in ever so you're stuck with two small dots on a massive map which is... Less exciting. Still, the top BZ means we'll enjoy it against characters like Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Fox and so on. Also because the BZ is so close to the stage, edge-guarding is easy and safe-ish because you never have to jump out very far. :p

Lylat: Like most of you this stage reduces my standard of living. :p Not much to say, recovering is a pain, neutral game is a pain, getting juggled is a pain, just ban it.

Castle Siege: I like the stage, but it's hard to say why.

Delfino: I love this stageeeeeeeee! So many neat transformations for us, platforms that are actually enjoyable to have around and walk-offs where we can abuse F-throw to the max. Also the transofrmations make it harder for us to get edge-guarded. Also very pretty. <3

Skyloft: I also equally love this stage, but probably more for the jank (so many of my opponents have hated this stage and died unexpectedly from not knowing where to be at what time) and transformations where a controllable projectile is useful to have.

Halberd: For some reason I dislike the stage a lot, I find the hazards legitimately annoying to deal with and don't like the stage layout early on and where the platform sits. :/

Hope you all enjoyed my useless advice, seriously I swear my CP-ing is very weird. I prefer prioritising what the opponent doesn't want rather than what I want. If I'm not sure, I'll go to FD, T&C or Delfino/Skyloft because I enjoy them and I seem to do well on stages I like. :p
 

AwkwardNess

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I'm a very strange and unusual Ness player in that I often do better on stages that I like, whether they're "better" for us or not... and my criteria for liking stages are more often music and aesthetic than actual points, which is funny.
Huh... I kinda feel the same way. Whenever my friends are fine with any Omega, I always go for Onett, Gaur Plain, or Jungle Hijinx for that Stickerbush Symphony :love: I also go for Halberd and both AC stages for their music and looks as well.
I'm also the type that only likes to play as characters from games I like...
 

Lochy

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I love going to omega pauletenas temple for the destroyed skyworld music
As Ness I dislike battlefield because doing PK wallbounce is impossible. Same goes for battlefield. I love smashville and town and city.
I think any stage that you can't really do pk wallbounce wouldn't be my pick.
 

yoshi8984

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Hm...

FD/Omegas: I usually don't mind them, but I prefer to go somewhere else. Walled Omega FDs are a bonus so we can thunderbounce, and ones like Omega Galaxy and Kalos are niche since we can still do it but others can't wall jump. ;P
(Oh and idk if this is a problem on Wii U but try staying away from Omegas where it's dark and can't see Greninja's Shadow Sneak... I know on 3DS, Brinstar, Pictochat and Pac-Maze Omegas I don't go to for that reason lol)

Battlefield: I'm probably weird for liking platforms with Ness, I just don't know how to explain why tbh though.

SV: I'm cool with it, I don't mind it. I know thanks to the moving platform approaching, I was able to continue my Fair chain and I won with like 7 Fairs in a row on a Bowser... XD

T&C: I haven't really played on, so unsure how to feel about it. I don't like that the moving platforms can drag you away if you're on it (might be bad if you're knocked down or you trip somehow) though lol.

Lylat: It's a pain, but it's my 2nd ban as opposed to my first. Slants are janky and so is our recovery there.

Duck Hunt: My premiere ban. Don't like the ducks, the random grass popping up and the high ceiling.

Kongo: I actually really like the stage for being able to mindgame with PKTs from below the stage, and the blastzones don't bother me either and I like the platforms for some reason. xD

Delfino: My CP. Water's great, the ability to shark is great and making our recovery safer is great as well. :3

Halberd: Haven't played on here yet to form a solid opinion. Was alright in Brawl for me.

Skyloft: Banned in my area, perhaps that'll change in the future though.
 

Noa.

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I'm starting to realize how much I actually like Duck Hunt and dislike Halberd as of late.
I stopped counterpicking Halberd like two weeks after the release of Smash Wii U. It's just not super great for Ness. I would say only like a fourth of my KOs are done with uair, and that's our only way to kill vertically.

Though lately I have been thinking about counterpicking it more often. The fact that you can pk thunder through the stage on the first transformation is really useful and it's a good stage for Ness if you can exploit that.

But yeah it's one of the few stages I stay away from.

I love Duck Hunt. My favorite stage to take Luigi to. The ceiling is large, and there is lots of space to run around. This means it's easier to run away from Luigi or any other slow character if you're feeling pressured. Plus the walls are so easy to thunderbounce off of. I love it a lot.

I haven't posted in this thread actually.

So almost every stage is good for Ness. It just depends on the matchup. There are some general trends to help pick stages though.

Longer stages are nice against characters that Ness is more mobile than. And if you want to play a matchup defensively against a slower character you should go to a shorter stage.

Vice versa if you're playing against a fast character. I prefer shorter stages against characters that are faster than Ness. It gives them less room to take advantage of the fact that they can travel across the stage faster than me.

Platforms are on a case by case basis.

Stages with low ceilings don't help Ness that much. I know I don't get most of my kills with uair. I rely very heavilly on bthrow, bair, and dsmash to KO. So many of the other top tier characters have superior vertical KO options than us, so I tend to stay away from low ceilings. But if you're playing against a character with no vertical kill options, go for it!

Stages with transformations are wonderful for Ness. They remove the bottom blast zone so during transformations Ness's biggest weakness, his recovery, is removed! Plus transformation stages tend to have walk offs and walk offs are amazing for Ness. His fthrow and bthrow are so threatening and you can get a very early kill off of a read.

So keeping all of that in mind lets go through the stages.

In terms of length the longest ones are

Duck Hunt, Final Destination, Town and City, Halberd 2nd transformation

Shortest ones are

Smashville, Castle Siege 1st transformation

The other ones are pretty medium length I find. Only these stages really stick out to me in how their length matters.

Low ceilings:

Halberd, and then Town and City

For specifics about each stage:

FD: Because there are no platforms it's easier to land pkt2s in the middle of a pk thunder juggle. This stage is better against characters that have trouble getting juggled. If you catch them without a double jump in the middle of a juggle, you can kill them easily with pkt2. Also because there are no platforms, it is harder to get back on stage from the ledge. So against characters or players that are good at ledge guarding, avoid this stage.

Battlefield: This stage has a slightly higher ceiling than FD. Barely worth mentioning but it's there. On this stage you can usually pk thunder juggle more safely. You can cancel your pk thunder on platforms if you miss, and if opponents air dodge through your pk thunder they might land on a platform instead of the stage. It is harder to land pkt2 on this stage however because you have to pk thunder around the platforms. The platforms are nice for dthrow combos and stuff. And they help us get back on stage while we're on the ledge.

Smashville: The platform can lead to killing very early on our side and theirs. Rage fthrow, or just killing with bthrow earlier. You can also do a dthrow to triple fair right into the blast zone. It's a very good platform for Ness to get kills. It's also an amazing platform to get out of juggles and ledge guards. It helps a lot when you're recovering too. So this stage depends on the matchup. If you find that you're usually in advantage, and most of the match you're edgeguarding them, and juggling them, stay away from this map. If it's vice versa, then stick to this map. It can be harder to pk thunder juggle cause opponents can land on the platform and just shield while they're recovering offstage.

Lylat Cruise: It's not mega awful but it is Ness's worst stage. Recovering here is not as problematic thanks to the patch, but can be annoying due to tilting. It's very difficult to abuse the platforms. This stage is not good for Ness. It's one of your default bans, but sometimes other stages are a higher priority depending on the character. If you're not sure though, just ban this stage.

Town and City: I honestly don't really notice the platforms too much on this stage. I don't have much to say about them. It has the second shortest ceiling, and is one of the longer stages.

Castle Siege: probably Ness's best stage. The first transformation is really useful for combos cause it's so small and you can bait people into airdodging and landing on the platforms with landing lag. Plus walls are nice for thunderbouncing. The second stage is great for early kill throws. And the statues can create walls of pk fire in the neutral which is very interesting in useful. Love the second transformation! The third transformation is whatever.

Delfino: Another great Ness stage. No recovering, walkoffs, all great! The water is really great for spiking people, and you can take that chance with Ness. It can be very dangerous against other characters that have spikes though. I don't have much to say about the default layout.

Halberd: Shortest ceiling in the game and it shows. The first transformation allows you to use pk thunder through the stage, so this can allow for creative pk thunder juggling and pkt2s. Very nice aspect of this stage. The second transformation is incredibly long, and everything that usually comes into play with long stages is true here. I barely notice the hazards when I play here. I don't pick this stage much just cause ness only has uair.

Duck Hunt: High ceiling, long stage. Walls allow for good bouncing. The platforms aren't super mega useful or important at this point. But perhaps in a couple years the intricacy of the platforms will be explored.

So every stage is useful except for Lylat. Though I don't pick Town and City or Halberd often at all. I love Siege and Delfino the most, though I counterpick all of the other stages depending on the matchup.
 

Earthbound360

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I stopped counterpicking Halberd like two weeks after the release of Smash Wii U. It's just not super great for Ness. I would say only like a fourth of my KOs are done with uair, and that's our only way to kill vertically.

Though lately I have been thinking about counterpicking it more often. The fact that you can pk thunder through the stage on the first transformation is really useful and it's a good stage for Ness if you can exploit that.

But yeah it's one of the few stages I stay away from.

I love Duck Hunt. My favorite stage to take Luigi to. The ceiling is large, and there is lots of space to run around. This means it's easier to run away from Luigi or any other slow character if you're feeling pressured. Plus the walls are so easy to thunderbounce off of. I love it a lot.

I haven't posted in this thread actually.

So almost every stage is good for Ness. It just depends on the matchup. There are some general trends to help pick stages though.

Longer stages are nice against characters that Ness is more mobile than. And if you want to play a matchup defensively against a slower character you should go to a shorter stage.

Vice versa if you're playing against a fast character. I prefer shorter stages against characters that are faster than Ness. It gives them less room to take advantage of the fact that they can travel across the stage faster than me.

Platforms are on a case by case basis.

Stages with low ceilings don't help Ness that much. I know I don't get most of my kills with uair. I rely very heavilly on bthrow, bair, and dsmash to KO. So many of the other top tier characters have superior vertical KO options than us, so I tend to stay away from low ceilings. But if you're playing against a character with no vertical kill options, go for it!

Stages with transformations are wonderful for Ness. They remove the bottom blast zone so during transformations Ness's biggest weakness, his recovery, is removed! Plus transformation stages tend to have walk offs and walk offs are amazing for Ness. His fthrow and bthrow are so threatening and you can get a very early kill off of a read.

So keeping all of that in mind lets go through the stages.

In terms of length the longest ones are

Duck Hunt, Final Destination, Town and City, Halberd 2nd transformation

Shortest ones are

Smashville, Castle Siege 1st transformation

The other ones are pretty medium length I find. Only these stages really stick out to me in how their length matters.

Low ceilings:

Halberd, and then Town and City

For specifics about each stage:

FD: Because there are no platforms it's easier to land pkt2s in the middle of a pk thunder juggle. This stage is better against characters that have trouble getting juggled. If you catch them without a double jump in the middle of a juggle, you can kill them easily with pkt2. Also because there are no platforms, it is harder to get back on stage from the ledge. So against characters or players that are good at ledge guarding, avoid this stage.

Battlefield: This stage has a slightly higher ceiling than FD. Barely worth mentioning but it's there. On this stage you can usually pk thunder juggle more safely. You can cancel your pk thunder on platforms if you miss, and if opponents air dodge through your pk thunder they might land on a platform instead of the stage. It is harder to land pkt2 on this stage however because you have to pk thunder around the platforms. The platforms are nice for dthrow combos and stuff. And they help us get back on stage while we're on the ledge.

Smashville: The platform can lead to killing very early on our side and theirs. Rage fthrow, or just killing with bthrow earlier. You can also do a dthrow to triple fair right into the blast zone. It's a very good platform for Ness to get kills. It's also an amazing platform to get out of juggles and ledge guards. It helps a lot when you're recovering too. So this stage depends on the matchup. If you find that you're usually in advantage, and most of the match you're edgeguarding them, and juggling them, stay away from this map. If it's vice versa, then stick to this map. It can be harder to pk thunder juggle cause opponents can land on the platform and just shield while they're recovering offstage.

Lylat Cruise: It's not mega awful but it is Ness's worst stage. Recovering here is not as problematic thanks to the patch, but can be annoying due to tilting. It's very difficult to abuse the platforms. This stage is not good for Ness. It's one of your default bans, but sometimes other stages are a higher priority depending on the character. If you're not sure though, just ban this stage.

Town and City: I honestly don't really notice the platforms too much on this stage. I don't have much to say about them. It has the second shortest ceiling, and is one of the longer stages.

Castle Siege: probably Ness's best stage. The first transformation is really useful for combos cause it's so small and you can bait people into airdodging and landing on the platforms with landing lag. Plus walls are nice for thunderbouncing. The second stage is great for early kill throws. And the statues can create walls of pk fire in the neutral which is very interesting in useful. Love the second transformation! The third transformation is whatever.

Delfino: Another great Ness stage. No recovering, walkoffs, all great! The water is really great for spiking people, and you can take that chance with Ness. It can be very dangerous against other characters that have spikes though. I don't have much to say about the default layout.

Halberd: Shortest ceiling in the game and it shows. The first transformation allows you to use pk thunder through the stage, so this can allow for creative pk thunder juggling and pkt2s. Very nice aspect of this stage. The second transformation is incredibly long, and everything that usually comes into play with long stages is true here. I barely notice the hazards when I play here. I don't pick this stage much just cause ness only has uair.

Duck Hunt: High ceiling, long stage. Walls allow for good bouncing. The platforms aren't super mega useful or important at this point. But perhaps in a couple years the intricacy of the platforms will be explored.

So every stage is useful except for Lylat. Though I don't pick Town and City or Halberd often at all. I love Siege and Delfino the most, though I counterpick all of the other stages depending on the matchup.
This is a perfect breakdown of the stages, and embodies almost all of my stage thoughts completely.
For the most part, Ness is pretty chill with most of the stages, and you pick based on matchup. Just avoid Lylat and you're good.

Here's a stage "tier list" I felt like making. This is just IMO.

Top (very reliable and safe picks):
Omega Wii Fit Studio (not kidding, it's FD with walls)
Final Destination
Smashville

High (really good counterpicks, matchups in mind):
Duck Hunt
Castle Seige
Delfino

Mid (Eh.):
Town and City

Low (Rather not play here, but it's no a breaker for me):
Halberd
Battlefield

Bottom (avoid like the plague):
Lylat

And from my matchup experience, some little things I wanna mention:
Do NOT take Pacman to Duck Hunt or Lylat if possible
Do NOT take DDD to Castle Seige
Do NOT take Jigglypuff or DK to Delfino
Do NOT take ROB or Luigi to Halberd

All of these characters have some stupid gimmick that they can abuse on these stages. Like Jiggs can get no-risk rests in the water of Delfino, and Pacman can turn his key into a handheld item on Duck Hunt and Lylat with ease.
 

rosetta_stoned

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 11, 2015
Messages
75
Some really good breakdowns, thanks everyone for sharing! Im trying to be a little more open minded to stages like duck hunt - which i previously assumed to be bad for ness and castle siege - that i was very outspoken against but is hard to deny the benefits it can offer for a cp.
 

Asa

Smash Hero
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Messages
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Hawaii
lylat is really an alright stage lol. i personally like how the platforms are laid out more than battlefield's. Blastzones seem a little smaller too which is something I like fo sho. wouldn't take rosalina there though, as it can interfere with pkf slightly.
 

Noa.

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 2, 2008
Messages
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Orlando, Florida
I love lylat cruise as a stage. But I have had so little success there. I feel like I've lost almost every tournament match I've played on lylat cruise! It kind of sucks. :(

And I used to counterpick it all the time in brawl too.
 

AwkwardNess

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Awkw4rdAss4ssin
lylat is really an alright stage lol. i personally like how the platforms are laid out more than battlefield's. Blastzones seem a little smaller too which is something I like fo sho. wouldn't take rosalina there though, as it can interfere with pkf slightly.
I'm not sure about not taking Rosalina and Luma there. I mean, Rosalina can't really do that much asides from dair when Ness is below her, and Ness can use uair or PKT or nair. The stage also allows you to more easily hit Luma with PKF if Ness is at the center, and I love to get rid of Luma quick by spamming PKF on it.
I still wouldn't pick Lylat Cruise because I'm not a fan of it, but it's not the end of the world. Just really close to the end of the world.
 

Kodystri

the PK Spamming Lucas Main
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I'm probably the weirdest of all,stages but this,is my order.

Kj64>Delfino>Lylat>CS>BF>DH>SV>FD>TaC>Halberd.
 

AwkwardNess

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I'm probably the weirdest of all,stages but this,is my order.

Kj64>Delfino>Lylat>CS>BF>DH>SV>FD>TaC>Halberd.
GET THAT LYLAT OUT OF MY FACE
That's actually not a bad list. I'm a fan of KJ64, Delfino's greatness, you need to check yourself about Lylat though, and the rest are your preference.
 

Kodystri

the PK Spamming Lucas Main
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GET THAT LYLAT OUT OF MY FACE
That's actually not a bad list. I'm a fan of KJ64, Delfino's greatness, you need to check yourself about Lylat though, and the rest are your preference.
I actually always play really good on Lylat for some reason.
 

Teshie U

Smash Lord
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Jan 13, 2013
Messages
1,594
well lylat inhibits pkf slightly, which i use more often in that matchup. sure it gives opportunities to mess with her recovery with the tilting, but that should be a minor concern; she can be harassed offstage well enough elsewhere.

-asa
 
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neomadgic

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After playing on lylat against kodystri. I have to agree with him, sure the edges could be janky at times, but I have yet had problem with them. The tilting can mess up your pk fire if you are aiming at the tilts, HOWEVER, if it's tilting in your favor, your pk fire will hit the head of other characters and it is A LOT harder to get out of pk fire if it hits upper part. The platforms are different than other stages and can lead to I expecting pkt2 kills.

But most importantly, a lot of other players hate lylat, so why not use that to your advantage?
 

Earthbound360

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After playing on lylat against kodystri. I have to agree with him, sure the edges could be janky at times, but I have yet had problem with them. The tilting can mess up your pk fire if you are aiming at the tilts, HOWEVER, if it's tilting in your favor, your pk fire will hit the head of other characters and it is A LOT harder to get out of pk fire if it hits upper part. The platforms are different than other stages and can lead to I expecting pkt2 kills.

But most importantly, a lot of other players hate lylat, so why not use that to your advantage?
Because recovery :(
 
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