Stage Discussion

[Jam Stunna]

Pretty simple: What stages are good for the ICs? What stages do you play well with the ICs on? Any stage specific strategies, counterpicks against certain characters, and any insights you've had in your tournament experiences would be extremely helpful.

Yoshi's Story
I play this stage alot, and I've come to like it alot as a neutral/counterpick for the ICs. It gets passed on alot because of the advantages that Marth and Fox have on it, but I think alot of those advantages apply for the ICs as well. Their strong smashes are useful here, due to the low ceiling and close death zones. Plus, the ICs are extremely mobile on the stage, as a wave-dashed dsmash can cover half of the stage, and it's an attack that can kill most opponents around 100%. Aerials and usmash also get alot of use here, thanks to the low platforms.

Of course, the biggest assets to the ICs on this stage are also their biggest weakness. Their extreme lightness means they get KO'd at potentially even lower percentages than your opponent, which forces these traditionally defensive characters to go on the offensive. It's understandable to have second thoughts about counterpicking this stage against a competent Marth or Fox, but I think this stage should be in an ICs player's bag of tricks against any of the other top and high tier characters, especially Peach.

Videos of IC players on Yoshi's Story:
Wobbles vs. Cort (Peach)

Chu Dat vs. Chillin (Fox)

 

[Vts]

mute city is my favorite counter pick/stage.

Mute City
This stage has no edges and small area with no platforms while in the air. the small area is hard are first but learning when cars come can be helpful or hurtful.
the no grab ledges are really good for the squall hammer recover and the up-b (go under the map and pop up). the small area is great for chain grabbing and for other small combos. the top on some parts of the map is really short but 80% of the time you'll kill your opponent off the sides since there recovery will be gimped by the no ledges.

The bad.
The cars screw you up so much. peach is better on this stage than you :D. fox's shine may kill you easier. the small starting part makes spacing harder.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Good assessment, and thanks for this thread. I'm boring and only counterpick FD/Dreamland (whichever isn't banned) but this is much needed discussion.

On YS -- Even though the low ceilings and close walls lead to early deaths, chaingrabbing is all the more deadly. You only need to chaingrab maybe 3 times from 0 percent to kill any character with u-smash/f-smash (near the edge). It's a fantastic counterpick vs. Peach/Samus/Jiggs. Zoning is important; stay in the middle, between the two lower platforms, and you can control the entire stage. As Jam mentioned, your ground game pretty much dominates the ground, while u-airs can intercept and outprioritize most moves in the air.

Dreamland is my counterpick of choice when FD is banned, and is especially strong vs. Marth and spacies. More when I have more time.

Jam, are you going to LLHS2? Maybe we'll get to play a little.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Yeah, I'll be there. We should definitely play, although I am the worst at IC dittos (pre-johns )

I don't play DK64 much at all, I hate those two platforms. I got utterly destroyed by a Sheik in friendlies a few weeks ago on that stage.

 

[Binx]

Personally I avoid DL like the plague, for one I think it gets projectile spamming characters too much room, its a very easy edge to sweet spot for other characters, and the ceiling is VERY high, I get a lot of my kills from dthrow up smash when they DI with it.

Yoshi Story is my favorite stage in the game no matter what character I am, I really like the edges for ice climbers though because when edgeguarding you can stand on the slope for more range and prevent certain sweet spots, the ceiling and ledge are close so if you fight characters you can't chain throw to high percents you can still get low percent kills (I can't wobble) the ledges are also good for your recovery, you can get much easier wavelands off your edgehop and can get it to go very far.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Jam: My bad, I meant to say Dreamland. Fixed my post.

I agree that DK64 is risky; the platforms too high to approach, and platform campers gain a definite advantage.

Dreamland is nice and spacy, allowing long chaingrabs and allowing you to abuse IC's ground movement. I only counterpick it when FD isn't available, and it's just that -- an alternative to FD. Of course, it has wider walls and a higher ceiling. Good vs. most characters, hell vs. Samus and Jiggs (and to some extent Peach). The platforms are the perfect; they don't interfere at all with any kind of chaingrab, and they give you a safer recovery option (Squall Hammer to platform rather than to stage).

Binx: Truth on YS. D-smash edgeguard becomes even better.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I counterpicked YS yesterday whenever FD was banned (every match, even my MMs). It won me a tourney game vs Banks' Marth. And then he won his counterpick.

Dreamland 64
Notable characteristics of Dreamland are wide walls, a high ceiling, and a huge stage. Dreamland can be an excellent counterpick, but may completely backfire if your opponent is skilled at all with Jigglypuff, Samus, or Peach. Fox has a notably hard time killing on Dreamland; his shines will rarely push you off the stage, the platforms protect you from u-throw u-air, and his u-smash is survivable for a long time. Wobbling gives you a distinct killing advantage to any character in the game.

Dreamland is nice and spacy, allowing long chaingrabs and allowing you to abuse IC's ground movement. I only counterpick it when FD isn't available, and it's just that -- an alternative to FD...The platforms are the perfect; they don't interfere at all with any kind of chaingrab, and they give you a safer recovery option (Squall Hammer to platform rather than to stage).

 

[Wobbles]

Don't forget you can u-smash tall characters through their shields on Yoshi's Story if they're on the platforms. You clip their toes, it's how I win that round against Cort.

Get used to playing on Brinstar; you can get a lot of easy perfect wavedashes with the slopes and sometimes the level is kind to Nana with its lava. Not much platform work you can do, however. It's bad, but you gotta learn it.

I hate Mute, that's all I have to say.

All the neutrals are good for ICs, IMO. I love Pokemon Stadium because all the platforms give you crazy de-syncing opportunities, it's got a low ceiling for easy d-throw up-smash, and if you grab near the sides it's pretty easy to d-throw f-smash. The platform tech-chasing also gets you good up-smashes from grabs, whether d-throw or u-throw. Also, level transformations cause the ground to develop weird invisible barriers. Abuse these on tech-chases for sexy grabs. In fact, if you get lucky on the transformations, you can get good d-throw up-smashes from the tops of transformed platforms, which means early KOs. Wonderful level all around Lack of a middle platform means characters have a tougher time platcamping you. The big weakness is that same low ceiling; you get the good u-smash KOs but you die from vertical stuff way too easily. Good thing you can't really be shinecombo'ed. I also hate the fire stage, so I tree camp; it's a huge hassle landing grabs and wavesmashes with the dip. This is my *real* counterpick stage, since FD is always banned against me for some reason.

Edit: Whoops I'm silly, why'd I say d-smash in my first sentence?

 

[Sleepy]

Mute would be a viable stage I think, if the changing stage didn't seem mostly unfavorable to the IC's style play. Mute's base portion the moving platform that uses the stage, is very much FD with a shorter style. It works well for getting your opponents off the stage, since it's shorter than FD. Since other opponents have to land on the stage, most have recoveries which can and will be destroyed easily if they're laggy at all. On the other hand I wouldn't try Mute on any floaty characters.

I also agree most neutrals are good for IC's, but I dislike battlefield, since IC's are light they tend to get stuck on platforms, and locked easily by marth. seems like I always get camped playing that stage. I hate DL though, it's too **** big, takes way too long to kill others, especially with popo solo.

Kinda a silly question, but anyone else **** up on grab combos on top of platforms? especially desyncs.

oh yes,on battlefield I also realize if you somehow get your oppoenent on the platform, you can use that to time your uairs on the shorter ones. Uair on bfield platforms normal can be used to pop on and grab, or dsmash. the top platform generally isn't a good idea to be anywhere near though. I think in this stage it's even more a ***** to sync nana so she doesn't get killed, since the close proximities and limited range you have, I find it hard to chase my opponents aggroing nana around bfield. I am also experimenting on battlefield with wavelanding tricks, the platforms seem to work on uphitting placement well if you can launch them with a uair above the platforms.

I really like the uair dsmash trick though, seems to work well against shielders, provided you can poke in a smash. I believe this works ok on dreamland too, the YS plats might be a little low, and leave some holes in this though.

 

[Smasher89]

For me Onett (banned in US?) has been a great stage, beaten alot of foxes since when they mess up their infinite(which is the only good way for fox to play against IC's on that stage, except camping when in stocklead which most players for some reason don do l), they will get grabbed.

Standing on the platform really close to the left house also works for dthrow> reverse dsmash through the house (which should close to allways be a KO the first time, most peoples habit is to DI towards the wall, but since they fly through it....)

Nana lives alot longer, the only char that seems to have a chance on that stage against climbers is really Fox, and mastering that matchup helps alot (forcing people to ban Onett instead of FD is also good...)


I also like the Idea with mute city, IC's great edgeguard becomes easier, but it takes longer to KO which is not good due to the fact that the cars might come and separate ICs.


Kongo Jungle 64 is interesting, the "slopes" helps if you do anything wrong with the dthrow>dair chain and becomes easier to chain.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Yeah, Onett is banned in the US. Walls are good though; they make chaingrabs nearly impossible to escape.

Personally I don't like slopes because they lead to perfect wavedashing. That may sound like a good thing, but it seperates Nana every time.

 

[pockyD]

corneria is pretty badass vs certain characters (mostly marth, maybe falcon)

it's not a straight up good stage though, as fox/falco can give you loads of trouble there

 

[Jam Stunna]

I'm starting to like Corneria for teams. At the last tournament I went to, I teamed with a Peach and we got counterpicked to Corneria by a double Foxes twice. We actually beat one double Fox team there, and only lost by three stocks to the other (which isn't that bad I'd say, considering).

 

[AzN_Lep]

FD is good vs spacies/falcons/sheiks etc. usually gets banned =[
YS is good vs floaties - marth
Corneria is good vs floaties + marth & sheik (no platforms to camp)
DL64 is a good alternate to FD

Counterpicking also depends a lot on whether or not wobbling is allowed. When wobbling is legal, the larger stage always favors ICs. You survive to higher percents, they still die when they get grabbed.

Mute City is generally not a good IC stage. I really don't see too many advantages here.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I've always hated Mute City. It's one of my least favorite stages.

 

[Zjiin]

DK64 is one of my favorite IC counterpicks. Your comeback works high and even below the level + big stage to keep the babies alive. The only thing i have trouble with is Nana always steals my barrel.

 

[Vts]

still like mute city best as my counter pick lol

but found that jungle japes is pretty good

 

[Kyu Puff]

I'm starting to like Corneria for teams. At the last tournament I went to, I teamed with a Peach and we got counterpicked to Corneria by a double Foxes twice. We actually beat one double Fox team there, and only lost by three stocks to the other (which isn't that bad I'd say, considering).

I was watching that game.

Mute City and Brinstar are both decent against fastfallers, and the floors can protect Nana from gimps. The lack of edges on Mute City doesn't hinder the ICs recovery at all, but characters with high landing lag like Sheik, Marth, and even spacies, are forced onto the stage where you can promptly punish their recoveries. Naturally these aren't choice counterpicks; both are viable against only a small range of characters, where neutrals -- FD, Pokemon Stadium, Yoshi's Story -- can cover most of the cast.

 

[Sleepy]

I would avoid jungle japes like the plague, nana will end up eaten by claptraps constantly by spacies.

Mute City is favorable sometimes with IC's on certian portions I would think. like, race track with the two walls on each side, you can run away and avoid the opponent for a while (getting back to the middle platform might be a ***** though, since they'll camp that **** like hell in the center before you have to be forced to get back to it).
The part with the racetrack that has the platforms with the slanted down portions you can camp under that pretty well actually.
The part next to the tunnel, you're probably in a little trouble because a smart opponent has a lot of room to avoid you. And additional wierd tunnel top platforms to run away on which are too high for you to chase.

Dland64 kinda grew on me though, but to this day, peach and samus I would avoid this stage. Otherwise, characters that can get gimped easily, you have lots of room to work. I find it really difficult to fight samus on this stage, since she can avoid your edgeguards easily and is a heavyweight. Killing her with brute force can take a long time with that high ceiling.

A great experiment would be to try out YS. Can you imagine the possibilities with those short sides? even if the IC's don't have super knockbacks you could try desync grab fair dsmash. Also the "DI destroyer!" works pretty well in keeping your opponent above you. the other thing about small stages that might favor IC's is, when the opponent starts sepearting your nana, she's either gonna die quick, or you'll be close enough to start retaliating. FoD and YS are generally not that great, but I wonder if you can force your opponent into bad situations quicker on these maps. I would personally just use a lot of dthrow usmash here, because of the uair onto short platforms trick.

 

[Kyu Puff]

even if the IC's don't have super knockbacks

ICs do have super knockback.

 

[Vts]

what would you most likely ban as an ic player?

i ban FoD/green greens and sometimes BF

 

[pockyD]

opponent-dependent

banning poke floats is never a bad idea though

 

[Jam Stunna]

Am I the only person who really loves FoD? I know it's not particularly IC-friendly, but it's just such a great stage.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I love FoD.

U-tilts and SH autocancel Uairs go through like everything.

Having Nana desynch into SH Uair and land on the platform can be good at times depending on what you're trying to setup. And I like that it's easier to knock people off with random Bairs or F/D-smashes than usual into dumb edgeguards.

It's not particularly outstanding for them like FD or something but you could definitely do much worse imho.

 

[pockyD]

falcomist told me he was actually afraid to take fly to poke floats // rainbow cruise because "he knows those stages too well"

someone (maybe even fly himself?!) should help me understand how to play those stages well enough to the extent that people are afraid to even take you there

 

[Zjiin]

Sometimes people just know bad matchups. I don't claim to be an expert on the stage, but I have never lost in tourney on Rainbow Cruise as ICs when good players took me there. ...now Poke Floats is a different stupid story.

 

[pockyD]

yes, but if you "know" them, you must "know" something about how to play there that can be shared -_-