Stage Builder: last minute addition?

[GaryCXJk]

Me and my brother have discussed this some time ago, after seeing the Stage Builder and created stages in action. Make no mistake, we both love Super Smash Bros. and we both love the addition of a Stage Builder, but we feel that the stage builder is a last minute addition.

Lately stage building and stage creating has been the craze. Most of it was implemented in first person shooters, most noticably Time Splitters. However, for the past few years we've seen a trend in games, which could be THE future of gaming. I mean, take a look at Spore and LittleBigPlanet (HELL YEAH!) Both have full built-in customization. How boring both games might sound, both are highly anticipated.

So, a logical step for Sakurai would be to jump on this customization trend, also partially due to the large demand of a stage builder. However, how awesome the stage builder is, it IS quite lacking. Eventually you will always end up with a limited amount of stage items. There are only three backgrounds, and

Spoiler

three add-on parts that are unlockable

. Eventually we won't have enough tools to keep us busy for "eternity".

To add to that, the stage builder is also limited on the events that could happen. The players always start at given points. If your stage is four tiles wide, all characters will be spread over the four tiles, and always on top of the most upper tile. If even that could be changed, it would make a huge difference.

Of course we don't really need the flexibility the Time Splitter level builder has, but some more customization could be nice too. Even if we were given the ability to add special event stages, like Break the Target or other basic events, it would make a bigger difference.

It's not that I'm not grateful, it's something I've already anticipated on so it didn't come as a disappointment, but I do need to say that I won't expect to use it that often.

 

[Five]

Oh i agree completely. I love creating content for games, and the stage buildier is one of the first things i'm going to mess around with in Brawl, but just a few more features would have made it perfect.

 

[Thingy Person]

You can't even set the starting point for players? That..that sucks.
Yeah, it really could've used more attention.

 

[Jeff_ray...]

Actually, I don't really care about not placing the starting spots. I just want to make levels! For example, when I discovered Water Valves weren't in the Mario VS DK 2 editor, I wished it was in, but I admit I didn't quite change my life for so little.

At least, we DO have one, right?

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

Ther may a somewhat small amount of pieces, but you can use those pieces in a myriad of ways. The PDA editor in "Alien Hominid" has even less pieces than Brawl's stage builder, yet I've created over 50 levels in it.

 

[Kirblar]

I think the game picking player placement is to prevent players from being cruel with their starting positions.

 

[AustiniusRex]

I think the game picking player placement is to prevent players from being cruel with their starting positions.

hahaha ur giving them too much credit. The designers make cruel levels, cruel bosses, and cruel items. I don't think they thought changing starting positions was unfair in anyway. They probably just threw this in to quickly boost the hype for the game.

 

[BuSHiDo]

hahaha ur giving them too much credit. The designers make cruel levels, cruel bosses, and cruel items. I don't think they thought changing starting positions was unfair in anyway. They probably just threw this in to quickly boost the hype for the game.

I don't think that sounds too unlikely. I mean considering how ******** people would get with it and the kind of glitches it could bring forth. I mean if you were able to have a player start within an enclosed area full of spikes, or start someone off between two tall walls who can't walljump? There are plenty of cruel and ******** things people would end up doing with it. I'm sure a decent amount of people have already exploited it in ways that the game creators haven't prepared for.

If they don't let you mess with the starting points of the characters then I'd say it's definitely for a good reason, not because it was a last minute addition to the game.

 

[User33]

Giving people different starting positions isn't fair at all. It could give huge advantages or disadvantages.

 

[Wiseguy]

Me and my brother have discussed this some time ago, after seeing the Stage Builder and created stages in action. Make no mistake, we both love Super Smash Bros. and we both love the addition of a Stage Builder, but we feel that the stage builder is a last minute addition.

Lately stage building and stage creating has been the craze. Most of it was implemented in first person shooters, most noticably Time Splitters. However, for the past few years we've seen a trend in games, which could be THE future of gaming. I mean, take a look at Spore and LittleBigPlanet (HELL YEAH!) Both have full built-in customization. How boring both games might sound, both are highly anticipated.

So, a logical step for Sakurai would be to jump on this customization trend, also partially due to the large demand of a stage builder. However, how awesome the stage builder is, it IS quite lacking. Eventually you will always end up with a limited amount of stage items. There are only three backgrounds, and

Spoiler

three add-on parts that are unlockable

. Eventually we won't have enough tools to keep us busy for "eternity".

To add to that, the stage builder is also limited on the events that could happen. The players always start at given points. If your stage is four tiles wide, all characters will be spread over the four tiles, and always on top of the most upper tile. If even that could be changed, it would make a huge difference.

Of course we don't really need the flexibility the Time Splitter level builder has, but some more customization could be nice too. Even if we were given the ability to add special event stages, like Break the Target or other basic events, it would make a bigger difference.

It's not that I'm not grateful, it's something I've already anticipated on so it didn't come as a disappointment, but I do need to say that I won't expect to use it that often.

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/30392.html

"Limited" is a relative term. Comapared to LBP, Stage Editor might seem laking. However it looks like you can create any of the stage structures from SSB64 or Melee PLUS ladders, moving platforms, springs, ect. Would anything else really be useful in creating Smash bros stages? I don't think so. It would just be unneeded fluff.

As for lack of backgrounds, I think its intentional. The real stages have to have a purpose if people are going to use them, and that is that they look much more amazing.

 

[Talendime]

As for lack of backgrounds, I think its intentional. The real stages have to have a purpose if people are going to use them, and that is that that look much more amazing.

That's a really good point. I think it would have been cool if they let you use any background from any of the other stages (that don't move, at least). But you're definitely right about this.

But maybe they could have put in a few more than just 3 backgrounds. I mean, with all the stages we're going to be making ourselves, and with the new stage every day we get from Wi-Fi, things are going to get repetitive quick.
That said, the versatility of the stage builder has far exceeded my expectations, so I'm really not disappointed. At all.

 

[Wiseguy]

As for lack of backgrounds, I think its intentional. The real stages have to have a purpose if people are going to use them, and that is that THEY look much more amazing.

Urgh. Why can I not spell?

That's a really good point. I think it would have been cool if they let you use any background from any of the other stages (that don't move, at least). But you're definitely right about this.

But maybe they could have put in a few more than just 3 backgrounds. I mean, with all the stages we're going to be making ourselves, and with the new stage every day we get from Wi-Fi, things are going to get repetitive quick.
That said, the versatility of the stage builder has far exceeded my expectations, so I'm really not disappointed. At all.

Yeah, even though it was intentional, I agree that 3 is too low. More would have been better, but since this mode's bread and butter is the stage designs I think we'll survive.

 

[User33]

The ONLY thing that dissapoints me is the backgrounds. Everything else looks amazing.

 

[orintemple]

The fact that someone compared this with the TimeSplitters mapmaker is great because I don't know many people who have played that. In any case, even if it is a last minute thing, the fact that its there is crazy. I have never seen any other fighting game with a stage builder, have you? (If there is tell me cause I want to see it.)

 

[Talendime]

I have never seen any other fighting game with a stage builder, have you? (If there is tell me cause I want to see it.)

Halo 3 calls it 'forge'. The developers actually created a new level that consists of a simple, wide open hangar just for players to build the level's structure, walls, passageways, and all.

Other games that have it are:
Crysis and FarCry
Sauerbraten
Star Wars: Battlefront
StarCraft
TimeSplitters/Timesplitters2
Epic's Unreal series of first-person shooters
Half-Life (and related Source games)
Warcraft III
Doom

 

[Wiseguy]

Yeah, but like orintemple said, Brawl is unique among other fighting games in that it has a stage creator. Other genres definitely have them in abundence though.

 

[superduper]

I don't think that sounds too unlikely. I mean considering how ******** people would get with it and the kind of glitches it could bring forth. I mean if you were able to have a player start within an enclosed area full of spikes, or start someone off between two tall walls who can't walljump? There are plenty of cruel and ******** things people would end up doing with it. I'm sure a decent amount of people have already exploited it in ways that the game creators haven't prepared for.

If they don't let you mess with the starting points of the characters then I'd say it's definitely for a good reason, not because it was a last minute addition to the game.

You are wrong. Why the hell would they not let you do something ******** with the Stage Builder? Making ******** cruel levels is half the fun in it. Once I buy the game I have the right to build whatever I want to.

It obviously just skipped their mind OR they just wanted to keep it as a novelty thing. If you could create the best looking, best playing stages, why would they even give us standard stages? They want us to create simple (or crazy) stages when we're bored. Not stages that will eventually become our favourites. But saying they did it to make things "fair" is, as someone above said, giving them too much credit.

And I agree that, from what I saw, you can make quite alot of different stages. Thing is they could´ve well thrown a "scrolling mode" or allow walk-offs. And at least change the colours of items and background.

That said, the mechanics of the stage builder look awesome, yet they require imagination. What they screwed up in was aesthetics.

 

[Talendime]

And I agree that, from what I saw, you can make quite alot of different stages. Thing is they could´ve well thrown a "scrolling mode" or allow walk-offs. And at least change the colours of items and background.

What? you mean you can't have walk-off stages in stage builder?
Pft.. there goes my idea for "Bridge of Schmeldin"....

 

[Azamgi]

You can say the stage builder is a little lacking, but I don't think you can say it was added at the last moment. Remember when they revealed it to us?

 

[GaryCXJk]

The thing is, people say the stage builder unique for a fighting game, but that isn't really too hard, considering there's only been about eight other games like Super Smash Bros. (Jump series, D.O.N., Viewtiful Joe, Dream Mix TV, okay, so that's five, point even more valid).

The point is, even if it were just alternate textures for the individual tiles it would still have been better, or just theme sets. Right now, it's like playing the same stages over and over again, even though the layout is just different. Placing your own spawn points (both for players as well as items) would have made it that much better. Right now you're kind of screwed if you want a stage that is surrounded by wall (with only a pit below), since everyone gets spawned on top of the stage, which makes the rest kind of useless. All items get spawned on top, rendering items useless, even if you manage to get in the pit.

So yeah, it IS limited. It doesn't make it dull or useless, like I said, it's still awesome that it's in, but given the time this game had to get developed, couldn't they just add these small things? Because right now, it seems like they didn't fully think it trough.

Also, the comparison with LBP was only made to show the progress in the gaming world. In actuality, I compared it to TimeSplitter's mapmaker, sans the events to create a single campaign.

 

[Wiseguy]

The thing is, people say the stage builder unique for a fighting game, but that isn't really too hard, considering there's only been about eight other games like Super Smash Bros. (Jump series, D.O.N., Viewtiful Joe, Dream Mix TV, okay, so that's five, point even more valid).

The point is, even if it were just alternate textures for the individual tiles it would still have been better, or just theme sets. Right now, it's like playing the same stages over and over again, even though the layout is just different. Placing your own spawn points (both for players as well as items) would have made it that much better. Right now you're kind of screwed if you want a stage that is surrounded by wall (with only a pit below), since everyone gets spawned on top of the stage, which makes the rest kind of useless. All items get spawned on top, rendering items useless, even if you manage to get in the pit.

So yeah, it IS limited. It doesn't make it dull or useless, like I said, it's still awesome that it's in, but given the time this game had to get developed, couldn't they just add these small things? Because right now, it seems like they didn't fully think it trough.

Also, the comparison with LBP was only made to show the progress in the gaming world. In actuality, I compared it to TimeSplitter's mapmaker, sans the events to create a single campaign.

"but that isn't really too hard, considering there's only been about eight other games like Super Smash Bros. "

Smash Bros is unlike any almost any other fighter this is true, but it still falls under the same genre as games like Mortal Combat, Soul Calibur, Street Fighter, etc. All other major figting games don't pay much attention to the stages at all, treating them like pretty backgrounds and not much else.

Also, mentioning the Viewtiful Joe fighter in the same breath as Brawl is a crime against humanity.

"Right now, it's like playing the same stages over and over again, even though the layout is just different."

The layout is what makes the stage. Backgrounds and the like are just window dressing, and frankly not very important. Having the custom stages look very bare bones makes sense because otherwise no one would ever use the real stages.

"Blah blah blah blah spawn points blah blah blah blah"

Who cares? It's a very, very small limitation at best, since where characters spawn has never been that important. The six people in the world who want to fight in a box will have to find a way to make it work, but it doesn't really impact those who want to make stages that are actually enjoyable to play in.

Also, items fall randomly from the sky. Always have, always will. That's just how the game works, its not a flaw with the stage editor.

 

[Dreamking]

Yes, they could have given us more backgrounds like a starfield or a night time version of the sky background as well as choose where characters start.

 

[courte]

DLC with more items and backgrounds will come out over the year, my friend who is pro ssb64 was speaking with a nintendo rep a few weeks ago

lets just hope megaman and geno come with a one year anniverary

 

[TempestFunk]

Right now you're kind of screwed if you want a stage that is surrounded by wall (with only a pit below), since everyone gets spawned on top of the stage, which makes the rest kind of useless. All items get spawned on top, rendering items useless, even if you manage to get in the pit.

you mean a stage like this?

*..........................*
|..........................|
|..........................|
|..........................|
|......*...........*......|
|_________________|

(* = spawn point)
(... = empty space)

well, I'm not entirely sure, but couldn't you make the top of the walls pointed

Like this:

|\
|.\
|..\
|...\
|...|
|...|
|...|
|...|
~~

( ... = inside the blocks, solid)
(~~~ = Etc.)

I'm not sure if that will change the spawning locations of the characters, but i know items, at least some of them, should bounce down the slope into the playing area.

Could someone with the game test this out?

If this is true, then there probably are more things we can do in the stage creator than what we're thinking of now

 

[Steerclear]

For me, the whole point of the stage builder is to take those levels that my friends and I say, "****, I wish there was a level like _______," and make it. Personally, they can limit it to black and white for all I care.

I just can't wait for this freaking game to drop. I swear I'm going to flip.

 

[Fanewgie]

To add to that, the stage builder is also limited on the events that could happen. The players always start at given points. If your stage is four tiles wide, all characters will be spread over the four tiles, and always on top of the most upper tile. If even that could be changed, it would make a huge difference.

I definitely feel limited with the stage builder like you're saying. All you can really do is throw together a very basic and bland stage layout with no character to it. There's a ton of things they could've added to make it better.

- like you said, the ability to place starting positions. Then on big stages you could seperate a FFA into two mini brawls.
- destructibles. Despite a lot of stages being anticipated because of the destructible mechanic, you can't place any in the stage builder.
- stage hazards. You just don't have any options at all, unless you count the falling blocks, moving platforms and spikes, which I don't. Give us Peach's Castle Bullet Bills. Hyrule Castle cyclones! Actual, real stage hazards with some life.
- the mode should have had two "layers", so that you could build intricate structures in the background of your stages. It's especially dull looking at a giant flat image for the battle, and only having three makes it more painful. Even let us import our own from SD cards!

 

[BuSHiDo]

You are wrong. Why the hell would they not let you do something ******** with the Stage Builder? Making ******** cruel levels is half the fun in it. Once I buy the game I have the right to build whatever I want to.

It obviously just skipped their mind OR they just wanted to keep it as a novelty thing. If you could create the best looking, best playing stages, why would they even give us standard stages? They want us to create simple (or crazy) stages when we're bored. Not stages that will eventually become our favourites. But saying they did it to make things "fair" is, as someone above said, giving them too much credit.

And I agree that, from what I saw, you can make quite alot of different stages. Thing is they could´ve well thrown a "scrolling mode" or allow walk-offs. And at least change the colours of items and background.

That said, the mechanics of the stage builder look awesome, yet they require imagination. What they screwed up in was aesthetics.

Don't start a response with "you are wrong." It makes you sound like a ****, especially when you have no clue what you're talking about and neither do I. It's simply opinion, which is why I used a lot of "I think" and "it seems." Anyway, I actually find it hilarious that you are like 100% sure that it just "slipped their mind."

On every normal stage every character starts off in a fair and neutral position. Why wouldn't it be the same for stage builder? You can still build it however you want. Especially considering how fair and balanced the creators try to make everything, why would they all of a sudden add an option that could make it completely unfair from the start?

 

[Commander Jesus]

Nintendo is probably going to sell updates to us for all of the things that we are taking about.
Hopefully scrolling will be one of them, I would rebuild many stages from Mario 3.
They would make fun Smash especially 1-4.

 

[Sci Fi Samurai]

I wondered how in depth the stage builder would be. Honestly, though, when I saw it I thought, "Well that's cool. I would just be happy w/ the slew of new characters and online play, but this is a fun and creative alternative."

By itself a stage builder is a step in a totally new direction for Smash Bros. And as it’s been mentioned, stage builders aren’t very common to the fighter genre either.

So, while it may be lacking, I won’t add it with my overall judgment of Brawl and instead rate the execution of the idea in and of itself (when I get the game :D).

That being said, I remember in Melee where they had event matches where you’d fight on the surface of an in-game model, like on a giant goomba or Entei. Being able to incorporate just about any model as a scaleable surface to fight on would also be a really cool idea imo.

Also, I don’t know how viable this is, but being able to use photos you’ve added to your Wii as stage backgrounds would be sweet.

 

[antimatter]

^ i think i know why you cant upload photos. you can send built stages over the world with wifi, and most people dont want a special stage with a disgusting background for a week. people can be dirty.

 

[Commander Jesus]

I wondered how in depth the stage builder would be. Honestly, though, when I saw it I thought, "Well that's cool. I would just be happy w/ the slew of new characters and online play, but this is a fun and creative alternative."

By itself a stage builder is a step in a totally new direction for Smash Bros. And as it’s been mentioned, stage builders aren’t very common to the fighter genre either.

So, while it may be lacking, I won’t add it with my overall judgment of Brawl and instead rate the execution of the idea in and of itself (when I get the game :D).

That being said, I remember in Melee where they had event matches where you’d fight on the surface of an in-game model, like on a giant goomba or Entei. Being able to incorporate just about any model as a scaleable surface to fight on would also be a really cool idea imo.

Also, I don’t know how viable this is, but being able to use photos you’ve added to your Wii as stage backgrounds would be sweet.

Online play is something i looked forward to when i first got Melee

 

[G-X]

The Stage Builder was actually one of Sakurai's main ideas when he started working on Brawl. Because he knew that it would be the last Smash Bros game, he wanted us to be able to enjoy it forever.

Too bad he ****ed it up so bad.

Example: If a (mushroom / column / tunnel / diagonal platform) takes up a certain number of squares, why can I not place anything in the adjacent squares?

I guess they were thinking "Just so they can't make some wierd glitches happen, we're going to restrict it like this." Well, **** that, some of us LIKE creating wierd glitches. Some of us LIKE putting blocks in the squares right above diagonal platforms. Maybe some really cool stage ideas only work if we get to do stuff like that, but the developers say nay.

Nintendo doesn't trust us to make reasonable stages, so they restrict the stage builder. Nintendo doesn't trust us to be able to tell the difference between a player and a pedophile, so they restrict the online service.

"Consider yourself lucky that we get (online / stage builder / decent graphics) at all" is not good enough.

The story has always been that the competitors had better hardware, but Nintendo had better games. Is it too much to ask for BOTH?

****.

 

[Commander Jesus]

The Stage Builder was actually one of Sakurai's main ideas when he started working on Brawl. Because he knew that it would be the last Smash Bros game, he wanted us to be able to enjoy it forever.

Too bad he ****ed it up so bad.

Example: If a (mushroom / column / tunnel / diagonal platform) takes up a certain number of squares, why can I not place anything in the adjacent squares?

I guess they were thinking "Just so they can't make some wierd glitches happen, we're going to restrict it like this." Well, **** that, some of us LIKE creating wierd glitches. Some of us LIKE putting blocks in the squares right above diagonal platforms. Maybe some really cool stage ideas only work if we get to do stuff like that, but the developers say nay.

Nintendo doesn't trust us to make reasonable stages, so they restrict the stage builder. Nintendo doesn't trust us to be able to tell the difference between a player and a pedophile, so they restrict the online service.

"Consider yourself lucky that we get (online / stage builder / decent graphics) at all" is not good enough.

The story has always been that the competitors had better hardware, but Nintendo had better games. Is it too much to ask for BOTH?

****.

your message s depressing..

 

[freeman123]

That guy who knew about the Dragoon item and most of the characters also said that he had known about the stage creator for months before it was revealed. So I don't think it was a last minute add on.

 

[G-X]

your message s depressing..

Yeah, I was really pessimistic about Brawl when I posted that.

But now I'm slightly less so, so yay.

 

[Cyberbot5000]

from what I've read it is slightly disappointing, I was expecting more options/traps/unlockable piece sets

 

[Commander Jesus]

We will hack the game and create new pieces and custom backgrounds and none of those levels will be a daily level

 

[Anarchist_Chase]

two words- DOWNLOADABLE CONTENT

 

[JoJoRukus]

If they really wanted to put a little effort into it, perhaps in a future release that may or may not surface, perhaps a larger amount of available backgrounds and placeable objects, possibly based on each respective series, or most of them. Then, the ability to mix and match block types, creating things like an intentional clash between nature and machine! The war has begun! MACHINES WIN!

 

[Sci Fi Samurai]

two words- DOWNLOADABLE CONTENT

Let's hope it becomes a reality!