Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[LiteralGrill]

Is it Christmas? It must be Christmas.

Yes please.

it seems the community just needs to go and ask, so community: GO AND ASK :O

 

[DavemanCozy]

Beep boop.

The only real omission in the analysis is details on hitting the island itself as the stage flies around. It was uncommon enough that even with me deliberately trying to jump at it as I flew around I managed to hit myself exactly once. Since then I decided not to bother.

Thanks. I feel like I have to give Skyloft more time to really understand it first though. I've only played it a few times.

I know that Zeph the Blue really likes the stage, I played some friendlies with him at Apex. I'm not sure what he thinks regarding its legality, but from your thread it seems like a good stage.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I feel if we push for FLSS there'll probably be a massive backdraft. Whatever our reservations for the system, starter/counterpick has been in effect since Melee. I'm not sure how well trying to push a less used system at a huge tournament like Evo would go.

I mean there's a solid chunk of people who think stages like Duck Hunt/Lylat should be BANNED, never mind counterpick. I mean we talk about these stages and their nuances all the time here on Smashboards, but a lot of people also don't.

I dunno, I guess I feel like it's just forcing a massive paradigm shift on people and we're lucky to have gotten what we've gotten (customs and 5 starters). Like, @ LiteralGrill even Hypest didn't jump straight into FLSS after y'all said it was going to. You guys left Skyloft and Castle Siege as counters. And that's just an online tournament. Just my 2 cents on the matter. Hope it made some kind of cents sense.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I feel if we push for FLSS there'll probably be a massive backdraft. Whatever our reservations for the system, starter/counterpick has been in effect since Melee. I'm not sure how well trying to push a less used system at a huge tournament like Evo would go.

I mean there's a solid chunk of people who think stages like Duck Hunt/Lylat should be BANNED, never mind counterpick. I mean we talk about these stages and their nuances all the time here on Smashboards, but a lot of people also don't.

I dunno, I guess I feel like it's just forcing a massive paradigm shift on people and we're lucky to have gotten what we've gotten (customs and 5 starters). Like, @ LiteralGrill even Hypest didn't jump straight into FLSS after y'all said it was going to. You guys left Skyloft and Castle Siege as counters. And that's just an online tournament. Just my 2 cents on the matter. Hope it made some kind of cents sense.

There's probably something to be said for easing into the whole thing, but I'm currently in a state of mind where I'm very much inclined to play every advantage we have instead of dancing around the issue and trying to sway the public first. If Mr. Wizard is inclined to do FLSS then I'll certainly make it known to him that I support it. (And I did, Twitter is a wonderful thing.)

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

So my analysis for exploring the possibility of a condensed stage list is complete, although I still have some work to do before I properly formulate a recommendation based off of it. The results can be found in the first post of the thread right here. I'm either dumb or you can't edit the title, so unfortunately it's going to say it needs input when it's concluded...

Interestingly enough, the results took a different form that I would have imagined. Instead of equating stages to one another, I found that we can reduce the list down to 6, because 3 of the archetypes are simply outclassed by other choices. Basically, if you want to pick these 3 stages to either help your recovery or mess up your opponent, there are stages that do it better.

We can discuss it here or in the thread itself (discussion starts on page 2), but I am happy to answer any questions people might have. Note I have a sort of FAQ as part of the post, however.

 

[Pazx]

Well, I don't hate it as much as I thought I would. Good stuff.

Are you suggesting we can only pick from 6 Omega stages or Omega archetypes?

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

Well, I don't hate it as much as I thought I would. Good stuff.

Are you suggesting we can only pick from 6 Omega stages or Omega archetypes?

Hah, I'm glad to hear it then :D

I don't get into it in that thread because it's something I'm still trying to work out the details of (I'll be posting a new thread for that), but what I have in mind is that I would point out the 6 archetypes and list the options within them. Then the TO and the region is allowed which stage (or stages, if the region is comfortable with that) will represent each archetype. The idea is to limit it down to 1 allowed choice per archetype with the rest being referred to as "redundant", but each region will have a bit of freedom within that. I feel this is the most simple way to learn what a player's options are when they counterpick FD/Omega while not being too rigid and demanding about it.

So I guess to answer your question more directly, I would recommend only picking from 6 stages, but a region could also use the formulation to pick from 6 Omega archetypes if they felt comfortable with that.

 

[Piford]

So I measured the lengths of a bunch of stages

 

[[Deuce]]

FLSS hype lets goooooo

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Is evo doing that? Seriously? Cuz that'd be awesome.

 

[Nintendrone]

I'm ecstatic that EVO of all things got convinced to use more starters, have custom moves on, and have FLSS. This will hopefully make a positive impact on the scene as a whole.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I know Wizard tweeted that FLSS was doable, but do we have any confirmation that it's definitely going to happen? I haven't found anything in his feed and the official rules page still has 5 starters/4 counterpicks.

 

[Nintendrone]

I know Wizard tweeted that FLSS was doable, but do we have any confirmation that it's definitely going to happen? I haven't found anything in his feed and the official rules page still has 5 starters/4 counterpicks.

AFAIK, there is no confirmation, but reason would suggest that it'll happen since he's open to the idea and that it's simply more fair than Starter/CP.

 

[[Deuce]]

I made a twitter account to say my piece on how FLSS should be implemented. Send him your tweets!

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Made a thread on Temple and I keep trying to use Reddit formatting here. One of these days I won't catch it before I post and some poor sod will be really confused.

Open to suggestions about what stage to cover next. None of them are likely to be used in competitive play any time soon so the order is really sort of arbitrary at this point.

 

[Piford]

Made a thread on Temple and I keep trying to use Reddit formatting here. One of these days I won't catch it before I post and some poor sod will be really confused.

Open to suggestions about what stage to cover next. None of them are likely to be used in competitive play any time soon so the order is really sort of arbitrary at this point.

Do Pyrosphere

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Do Pyrosphere

Welp.

Pyrosphere it is then. I...am not looking forward to figuring out Ridley. I may just try and see how much HP he has and maybe raw damage amounts for his attacks if he doesn't seem to have too many.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm pushing hard for Yoshi's Island at my locals. Thoughts?

 

[Piford]

I'm pushing hard for Yoshi's Island at my locals. Thoughts?

I mean if I can say one thing about Yoshi's Island is that its a stage.

Seriously though Yoshi's Island isn't necessarily that bad of a stage, it's just bad. By that I mean, there's nothing technically wrong with it, but when you play on it it seems like everything is wrong with it. It's a stage that most people hate playing on, so it seems like a pointless endeavor. I'd push for better stages than that.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm pushing hard for Yoshi's Island at my locals. Thoughts?

Eh, I can think of a lot of stages I'd rather play on than Yoshi's Island. Gamer, for instance.

I mean, the best thing you can say about it is that the stage doesn't directly try to kill you. But whenever it came up in single player I always groaned to myself a little.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Man, I don't get you guys. I love that stage. It's got what I like to call "Chinatown Wars Syndrome" - a whole bunch of stupid bull**** that, on its own, would be busted as hell, but when meshed together kinda works. Semi-cave-of-life? Tiny blastzones! Walkoff? Steep terrain angle! Plus, it's awesome for Little Mac. :3

 

[Piford]

Man, I don't get you guys. I love that stage. It's got what I like to call "Chinatown Wars Syndrome" - a whole bunch of stupid bull**** that, on its own, would be busted as hell, but when meshed together kinda works. Semi-cave-of-life? Tiny blastzones! Walkoff? Steep terrain angle! Plus, it's awesome for Little Mac. :3

Like I said I can't tell you anything that's directly wrong with it. The walk-off can't be camped because its a slope, the cave of life can't be camped because it disappears after one hit, ect. It just doesn't feel good to play on though and no one is gonna push for it to be legal.

 

[webbedspace]

One of that map's big buzzkills, as I've posted before, is the pit. How's the neutral game supposed to take place when basically any ground move splits the map clean in half for 8ish seconds? You can't even compensate with an air approach without having to spin those hovering blocks as well.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

This movement to get Yoshi's Island as a legal stage puzzles me. I mean, this is the third Smash game it's been in, and it's never been seriously considered before.The stage has a ridiculously close ceiling at it's lowest point, and being on the slopes makes it that much worse. There would be far too many 2-hit 0 to death combos on that stage for play there to ever be taken seriously.

I'd also like to bring up that we have plenty of much more legitimate stages to choose from, so it doesn't seem like something we should be considering. On that note, I'd like to bring up Kongo Jungle 64 again. I did some testing during Battle Royal 8 yesterday, and I absolutely cannot see barrel camping as a viable strategy. There is no way we should be banning this stage, and there is also no rules we need to put in place to prevent it.

Grabbing the ledge more than once without landing on the stage or taking damage does not renew ledge invincibility, so there's no Brawl-like abuse to speak of. There is a very limited amount of angles that do not outright kill your character, and one mistake means a loss of a stock. If you do not want to recover onto the stage (which is a part of what would make it an infinite stall) you need to shoot yourself away from the side of the stage you're currently on, and the barrel doesn't always give you that option before it forces you to shoot. Therefore, it's just not possible to keep yourself under the stage indefensibly.

If you argue that you can mix-up by shooting yourself onto the stage, then we're no longer talking about stalling. In this case, you would have to make a read in order to not get hit, which is exactly like defending in general play. It's not exactly hard for an opponent to read where you'll be either. There's only ever a single direction you can shoot at a given time, so an opponent can trivially track where you would end up.

All in all, unless I'm missing something big, this stage poses no problems for stalling. This is the type of thing we should wait for someone to use this in an actual tournament before removing the stage from the list. And even then, we can ban going into the barrel 3 times in a row without touching the stage, it's that simple.

 

[dav3yb]

So I got together with some friends and the main TO that is pulling thus upcoming tournament together. Everyone seems fine with the stage list, with only some minor gripes on a few of them.

We started discussing how stages might be picked, and I think this is the last major thing to figure out as far as rules are concerned. A forum I frequent does an online tournament most weekends, and they have a method I wouldn't mind adapting a bit, but I wanted some opinions:

They use a much shorter list, probably because it was the early stages that were recognized as being viable. I don't have the exact list I'm front of me, but I think it was 3 starters, and each player strikes one, then they play on the last. The counter pick is where it gets a bit different, and what I'd like to explore. There are more counter pick stages, but the winner will strike 2, and the remaining 3 or 4 are open for the loser to pick from. I kind of like the idea of having one person strike a set of stages, and having the rest as an option. Im just not really sure if it would work well with a larger list, but it's something I'm throwing around the idea of. Even if we had both players strike a set number, instead of the traditional back and forth striking. But I do like the idea of the player choosing a stage having a choice of a few stages to pick from.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So I got together with some friends and the main TO that is pulling thus upcoming tournament together. Everyone seems fine with the stage list, with only some minor gripes on a few of them.

We started discussing how stages might be picked, and I think this is the last major thing to figure out as far as rules are concerned. A forum I frequent does an online tournament most weekends, and they have a method I wouldn't mind adapting a bit, but I wanted some opinions:

They use a much shorter list, probably because it was the early stages that were recognized as being viable. I don't have the exact list I'm front of me, but I think it was 3 starters, and each player strikes one, then they play on the last. The counter pick is where it gets a bit different, and what I'd like to explore. There are more counter pick stages, but the winner will strike 2, and the remaining 3 or 4 are open for the loser to pick from. I kind of like the idea of having one person strike a set of stages, and having the rest as an option. Im just not really sure if it would work well with a larger list, but it's something I'm throwing around the idea of. Even if we had both players strike a set number, instead of the traditional back and forth striking. But I do like the idea of the player choosing a stage having a choice of a few stages to pick from.

We'd need to see the actual list, but I can tell you right now that 3 starters is awful, and that you should run at a bare minimum 5 and more realistically 9+. Similarly, 6 stages total is insane - there are easily 11-13 that are completely viable.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

So I got together with some friends and the main TO that is pulling thus upcoming tournament together. Everyone seems fine with the stage list, with only some minor gripes on a few of them.

We started discussing how stages might be picked, and I think this is the last major thing to figure out as far as rules are concerned. A forum I frequent does an online tournament most weekends, and they have a method I wouldn't mind adapting a bit, but I wanted some opinions:

They use a much shorter list, probably because it was the early stages that were recognized as being viable. I don't have the exact list I'm front of me, but I think it was 3 starters, and each player strikes one, then they play on the last. The counter pick is where it gets a bit different, and what I'd like to explore. There are more counter pick stages, but the winner will strike 2, and the remaining 3 or 4 are open for the loser to pick from. I kind of like the idea of having one person strike a set of stages, and having the rest as an option. Im just not really sure if it would work well with a larger list, but it's something I'm throwing around the idea of. Even if we had both players strike a set number, instead of the traditional back and forth striking. But I do like the idea of the player choosing a stage having a choice of a few stages to pick from.

What you're describing here... "striking" two stages from the full list and having the opponent choose from the remainder, is known as banning, and it's something very standard. In our region, we have 2 bans, some have more, others less, but I suppose you're in luck because everyone is already using this

As far as numbers go, that stage list is very small, but that's been mentioned already. You don't want 3, 7, or 11 starters because it gives a large advantage to the player striking second. The advantage at 3 starters is insane.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Does Jungle Hijinks have any redeeming factor whatsoever as a tourney stage? Without the background elements it would be an obvious starter, I'm wondering if there's any use in giving it a look.

 

[dav3yb]

Yeah, the particular list for this tournament is like 8 stages I think, 3 starters and 5 counters, give or take 1.

How would doing stage bans work for a larger list, the current lucky 13 that most people seem to agree are good? We might go with this method if it seems a but more straight forward.

They have more stages that I thought, 10 total it seems? Here's the listing from I think the challonge page: Starter Stages: Battlefield, Final Destination, and Smashville
Counterpick Stages: Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Duck Hunt, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Town & City, Omega Stages (Omega Stages are treated as FD when banning)

 

[Piford]

Does Jungle Hijinks have any redeeming factor whatsoever as a tourney stage? Without the background elements it would be an obvious starter, I'm wondering if there's any use in giving it a look.

No it's like impossible to see in the back, and the top right back is really good for camping at.

Yeah, the particular list for this tournament is like 8 stages I think, 3 starters and 5 counters, give or take 1.

How would doing stage bans work for a larger list, the current lucky 13 that most people seem to agree are good? We might go with this method if it seems a but more straight forward.

They have more stages that I thought, 10 total it seems? Here's the listing from I think the challonge page: Starter Stages: Battlefield, Final Destination, and Smashville
Counterpick Stages: Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Duck Hunt, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Town & City, Omega Stages (Omega Stages are treated as FD when banning)

Stage bans for 13 would preferably full list stage strike round one. You basically give them the whole list, and then they strike 1-2-2-2-2-2-1 till only one stage remains. Then rounds 2 and 3 the winner bans either 2 or 3 (depending on which number you chose), and then the loser picks from the remaining 10/11 stages.

That stage list you listed is the Apex one, which has a lot of issues like only having 3 starters and not including stages like Skyloft and Wuhu Island.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yeah, the particular list for this tournament is like 8 stages I think, 3 starters and 5 counters, give or take 1.

How would doing stage bans work for a larger list, the current lucky 13 that most people seem to agree are good? We might go with this method if it seems a but more straight forward.

They have more stages that I thought, 10 total it seems? Here's the listing from I think the challonge page: Starter Stages: Battlefield, Final Destination, and Smashville
Counterpick Stages: Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Duck Hunt, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Town & City, Omega Stages (Omega Stages are treated as FD when banning)

Let's see... Right off the bat, Wuhu Island should be a blindingly obvious pick. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. It's basically a Delfino clone, right down to the water sections and walkoffs.
Then there's Pokemon Stadium (Brawl), which I have gone over at length with a fine-toothed comb, as have many others. The stage is somewhat unconventional, but in actual playtesting, none of the alleged problems ever show up, and everything there can be easily adapted to.
Skyloft would be the next one to add to the list. Another very straightforward Delfino clone with a few hitboxes that jut out at odd moments but that are generally easy enough to avoid.
Then there's Kongo Jungle 64 to round out the list of 13, from which full list striking is possible. And of course, you're going to want 2-3 bans. I run with 2 in my tournaments.

 

[dav3yb]

So out of the 13 stages:

Battlefield
FD (Omega)
Delfino Plaza
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Skyloft
Town and City
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
Halberd
Duck Hunt
Wuhu Island
Kongo Jungle 64

what would be good to consider for starter stages, should we choose to use starters and counters, opposed to a full list.

 

[Piford]

So out of the 13 stages:

Battlefield
FD (Omega)
Delfino Plaza
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Skyloft
Town and City
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
Halberd
Duck Hunt
Wuhu Island
Kongo Jungle 64

what would be good to consider for starter stages, should we choose to use starters and counters, opposed to a full list.

Full list is the best and should be used, and you could chose whatever starters you wanted if you had to use starter/counterpick.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Of that list, I would use the following stages as starters:

• Battlefield
• FD (Omega)
• Delfino Plaza
• Lylat Cruise
• Castle Siege
• Skyloft
• Town and City
• Smashville
• Pokemon Stadium 2
• Halberd
• Duck Hunt
• Wuhu Island
• Kongo Jungle 64
  

And the following as counterpicks:

• -

It's the best possible system, allowing for the most fair stage in any given matchup in round one.

Failing that, because not everyone can get away with that, I'd add them in twos in this order:

1. Smashville
2. Town and City, Battlefield
3. FD (Omega), Lylat Cruise
4. Wuhu Island,Duck Hunt
   
5. Pokemon Stadium 2, Castle Siege
6. Delfino Plaza, Halberd
7. Kongo Jungle 64, Skyloft

But that's just personal preference. The more, the better. If you can't do FLSS, then 9 starters is probably not a bad place to start.

 

[dav3yb]

So just to get my head wrapped better around the stage bans thing.

Round 1 is chosen via striking until 1 stage remains (seems to be universal)
Round 2, winner bans X stages (however many is predetermined), and looser counter picks on one of the remaining stages.
Round 3, (in this event), do the banned stages stay banned? or is the full list opened again and stages are rebanned if wanted?

Whatever we decide on, I just want to make sure i fully understand the options, so that i can properly explain everything.

Also, do people use a set of starters, then for counter picking open the full list ever?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So just to get my head wrapped better around the stage bans thing.

Round 1 is chosen via striking until 1 stage remains (seems to be universal)
Round 2, winner bans X stages (however many is predetermined), and looser counter picks on one of the remaining stages.
Round 3, (in this event), do the banned stages stay banned? or is the full list opened again and stages are rebanned if wanted?

Whatever we decide on, I just want to make sure i fully understand the options, so that i can properly explain everything.

Generally speaking, banned stages usually stay banned. This is not really crucial to the integrity of the stagelist, though. Another rule that most people use is "Dave's Stupid Rule" or some variant of it - basically, if you won a game in the set on a stage, you cannot counterpick that stage again (alternatively: if you played a game in the set on a stage, you cannot counterpick it).

Also, do people use a set of starters, then for counter picking open the full list ever?

Counterpicking is always over the full list. As said, the starter/counterpick distinction is not a very good one.

 

[Piford]

So just to get my head wrapped better around the stage bans thing.

Round 1 is chosen via striking until 1 stage remains (seems to be universal)
Round 2, winner bans X stages (however many is predetermined), and looser counter picks on one of the remaining stages.
Round 3, (in this event), do the banned stages stay banned? or is the full list opened again and stages are rebanned if wanted?

Whatever we decide on, I just want to make sure i fully understand the options, so that i can properly explain everything.

Also, do people use a set of starters, then for counter picking open the full list ever?

If round 3 occurs, the new winner bans stages, and the loser gets to chose from the remaining stages, just like round 2.

Also, usually the stage played in round 1 is auto-banned in round 3, often called Dave's Stupid Rule

Often the starter/counterpick is used, but it's not as fair and worse in other aspects compared to using the full stage list the entire time.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

Soooo, just in case you guys weren't aware.... The large red balloon in Wuhu Island explodes on contact and can easily kill. Not saying that this means we should ban it, but I think it's worth mentioning at the very least. Wuhu isn't as tame as a stage as previously claimed, as there are strong hitboxes that occur on it.

Did everyone know this or is this previously not known?

 

[Pazx]

So I got together with some friends and the main TO that is pulling thus upcoming tournament together. Everyone seems fine with the stage list, with only some minor gripes on a few of them.

We started discussing how stages might be picked, and I think this is the last major thing to figure out as far as rules are concerned. A forum I frequent does an online tournament most weekends, and they have a method I wouldn't mind adapting a bit, but I wanted some opinions:

They use a much shorter list, probably because it was the early stages that were recognized as being viable. I don't have the exact list I'm front of me, but I think it was 3 starters, and each player strikes one, then they play on the last. The counter pick is where it gets a bit different, and what I'd like to explore. There are more counter pick stages, but the winner will strike 2, and the remaining 3 or 4 are open for the loser to pick from. I kind of like the idea of having one person strike a set of stages, and having the rest as an option. Im just not really sure if it would work well with a larger list, but it's something I'm throwing around the idea of. Even if we had both players strike a set number, instead of the traditional back and forth striking. But I do like the idea of the player choosing a stage having a choice of a few stages to pick from.

For the record, this stage selection procedure (not the number of stages or distribution) is exactly what Smash has been doing for years. Also, for game 3, stages do NOT usually stay banned from what I've seen, here's a generic set procedure you can look at. Ignore the numbering, there are earlier unrelated steps.

3. Each player selects one character. A double blind pick may be called by either player
4. The first game is played on a Stage selected from the Starter Stage List through the Stage Striking Method. The order of Stage Striking will be 1-2-1 (Player 1 strikes one stage, Player 2 strikes two stages, Player 1 strikes one stage)
5. The first match is played
6. The player that lost the previous match may opt to re-pick controller ports
7. The player that won the previous match may announce two "Stage Bans"
8. The player that lost the previous match announces the stage for the next match from either the Starter or the Counterpick Stage List. Any Stage named as a "Stage Ban" by either player may not be selected. A player may not counterpick to the last stage they have won on in the current set
9. The player that won the previous match chooses their character
10. The player that lost the previous match chooses their character
11. The next match is played
12. Repeat steps 6-11 for all remaining matches in the set

Also, in terms of stages, this is my opinionated list from "most legal" to "most likely to be excluded". I suggest using them all, but removing stages should be done from the bottom up. If your region has a particular aversion to hazards and are cool with walkoffs, you could move CS up and Halberd down etc

1. Smashville
2. Battlefield
3. Town and City
4. Final Destination/Omega Palutena's Temple
5. Lylat
6. Duck Hunt
7. Kongo Jungle 64
8. Skyloft
9. Halberd
10. Castle Siege
11. Delfino
12. Wuhu
13. PS2
14. Norfair

@ The_Jiggernaut the stage research thread said it doesn't kill until like 130%

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ The_Jiggernaut @ Pazx Balloon is a known thing but in the interests of full disclosure it can kill earlier if a) it hits someone fairly high up or b) someone hits it from the right side instead of the left, which makes the knockback hit them back out to the right. In both cases though it's simply due to the blast line being closer. The figures from the Wuhu Island thread were done under the assumption that Mario was roughly level with the cliff ledge.