Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[DavemanCozy]

It can be seen as the other way around as well: Smashville platform can save someone from a gimp, so too can it aid in a gimp (see Diddy Kong anyone vs Little Mac MU).

 

[Piford]

I would actually say Skyloft > Wuhu = Delfino, but thats just me

One thing about the traveling stages my sparring buddy and I noticed: Many, Many times a sudden stage transformation would change the flow of the battle. Usually it would manifest in me trying to recover, failing, but landing on solid ground thanks to a transformation in one of these stages. One time, we were doing Puff vs Ganon, he rested and missed, I went for the Warlock Punish (Skyloft) but a sudden transformation put distance between us. The punish failed. Thoughts? Could this be a legitimate argument against the legality of these stages?

That seems more like your fault for not paying attention rather than the stage's fault. You can tell when the stage is transforming and usually to which transformation it's landing on. Even if you couldn't tell exactly what it is, you shouldn't have gone for a laggy move when the stage is transforming.

 

[dav3yb]

I got a change to play a lot on Wuhu and Skyloft. I like both stages a lot, and we will probably be including them in our lineup, along with Kongo Jungle 64. So that brings the list of what stages we will be using to 13:

Battlefield
FD (Omega)
Delfino Plaza
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Skyloft
Town and City
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
Halberd
Duck Hunt
Wuhu Island
Kongo Jungle 64

We haven't worked out starter/counter stages, but this is most likely the final list we'll be using for an upcoming tournament in april. Unless something really degenerate shows itself for any stage.

 

[Piford]

I got a change to play a lot on Wuhu and Skyloft. I like both stages a lot, and we will probably be including them in our lineup, along with Kongo Jungle 64. So that brings the list of what stages we will be using to 13:

Battlefield
FD (Omega)
Delfino Plaza
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Skyloft
Town and City
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
Halberd
Duck Hunt
Wuhu Island
Kongo Jungle 64

We haven't worked out starter/counter stages, but this is most likely the final list we'll be using for an upcoming tournament in april. Unless something really degenerate shows itself for any stage.

You could just not use start and counterpick stages and Full List Stage Strike.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Agreeing that FLSS is preferable.

Yet another stage I doubt anyone cares about, Mario Circuit (Brawl) is done. Took me less than an hour, I love static stages. (Seriously, there are a lot of dynamic stages. Not the majority unless you're really liberal with what counts as "dynamic," but there's a lot.)

 

[dav3yb]

You could just not use start and counterpick stages and Full List Stage Strike.

I know we're trying to make things easier on everyone, since its certainly one of the first tournaments in this area, so we might come up with some kind of starters that top seed can pick from, then expand it for the looser to pick from or something.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

I know we're trying to make things easier on everyone, since its certainly one of the first tournaments in this area, so we might come up with some kind of starters that top seed can pick from, then expand it for the looser to pick from or something.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. For sure the easiest thing for everyone is to have the same ruleset within the tournament. Again, I might be misunderstanding something, but having a different picking system for top players to pick from isn't the way to go. If you want a compromise, having 9 starter stages is a good in-between if you don't want to start off with Full-List stuff.

A quick note that I've never seen mentioned before, but in order to do FLSS you need to have every stage unlocked on every Wii U. Otherwise you can't use the Random Stage Select to track things. This isn't hard to do, but it's something you have to account for in your set-up time.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. For sure the easiest thing for everyone is to have the same ruleset within the tournament. Again, I might be misunderstanding something, but having a different picking system for top players to pick from isn't the way to go. If you want a compromise, having 9 starter stages is a good in-between if you don't want to start off with Full-List stuff.

A quick note that I've never seen mentioned before, but in order to do FLSS you need to have every stage unlocked on every Wii U. Otherwise you can't use the Random Stage Select to track things. This isn't hard to do, but it's something you have to account for in your set-up time.

Technically the random stage select isn't required, but it does help a lot I'll admit.

 

[dav3yb]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. For sure the easiest thing for everyone is to have the same ruleset within the tournament. Again, I might be misunderstanding something, but having a different picking system for top players to pick from isn't the way to go. If you want a compromise, having 9 starter stages is a good in-between if you don't want to start off with Full-List stuff.

A quick note that I've never seen mentioned before, but in order to do FLSS you need to have every stage unlocked on every Wii U. Otherwise you can't use the Random Stage Select to track things. This isn't hard to do, but it's something you have to account for in your set-up time.

yeah, it was just something random i threw out for stage selecting. i have no idea what we'll be doing. its still over a month away, so we have time to get everything we need together.

I didn't think about the random stage select thing... i assume you're referring to the ability to alter the stages that get picked in random select? might jump onto mine in a bit and see if i have the ability to do that.

added: I had to unlock flatzone. completely forgot about that stage, but its pretty bad so i didn't miss it at all.

So would it best to have a certain selection of stages be available for random for the first round? then allow looser to counter-pick? I know the guy who is really heading up a lot of this doesn't want people sitting deciding stage striking for 5 minutes. It'll also be a tournament with multiple games (smash, sf4, ggxrd), so we dont want to get hung up on one game going particularly slow.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

Technically the random stage select isn't required, but it does help a lot I'll admit.

Yeah, you can do it without, but you'd need like... some sort of physical visual indicator at every station for 9 or more stages, or you start getting into the realm of "too many things for the human brain to track properly". I guess you could print and laminate the stage list and have a dry erase marker to cross off stages with.... Yeah, taking the steps to unlock Pacland and Flatzone is probably less work.

yeah, it was just something random i threw out for stage selecting. i have no idea what we'll be doing. its still over a month away, so we have time to get everything we need together.

I didn't think about the random stage select thing... i assume you're referring to the ability to alter the stages that get picked in random select? might jump onto mine in a bit and see if i have the ability to do that.

added: I had to unlock flatzone. completely forgot about that stage, but its pretty bad so i didn't miss it at all.

So would it best to have a certain selection of stages be available for random for the first round? then allow looser to counter-pick? I know the guy who is really heading up a lot of this doesn't want people sitting deciding stage striking for 5 minutes. It'll also be a tournament with multiple games (smash, sf4, ggxrd), so we dont want to get hung up on one game going particularly slow.

Ok so there's been a very big misunderstanding. I do not recommend in any way for the first match of the game to be decided at random by the Random stage select. This is extremely backwards and problematic, and no matter what you settle on for picking the first match, it will be better than hitting random. (It's void of any and all strategy, it's not actually random at all, and the system can be cheated to get an advantage. Ask if you want me to give the full spiel on this)

The reason I mentioned unlocking the random stage select is because you can use it to very easily track stages during stage striking. It provides a very easy visual, you start by having all the stages you're striking from and each player takes turns de-selecting the stages until one remains. The process is fully outlined in the second-last paragraph of this thread. Although the linked thread is about Full List Stage Striking, you can just as easily use that method to track 5 or 9 stages.

I understand not wanting to have the tournament take a lot of time, but it's a misconception that stage striking takes an absurdly long time. It's simply not true. In my experience with both this game and brawl, stage striking with 5 or 7 stages never took longer than 1 minute. Though I haven't yet tried it personally, the claim is that stage striking with 13 stages rarely takes more than a minute.

They'll be many things to make your first tournament not run as fast as you'd like. Don't be afraid to let educating players be one of those things.

EDIT: and be sure to use 2 stocks, 5 minutes as your rules. Otherwise, it will take a pretty long time

 

[Pazx]

This is extremely backwards and problematic, and no matter what you settle on for picking the first match, it will be better than hitting random. (It's void of any and all strategy, it's not actually random at all, and the system can be cheated to get an advantage. Ask if you want me to give the full spiel on this)

I think they fixed the "not actually random" problem that was present in Brawl but I'd love to hear about cheating the system.

Also, 2 stock 6 minute is better than 2 stock 5 minute.

2 stock X+1 minute is usually (within reason) going to be better than 2 stock X minute.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

I think they fixed the "not actually random" problem that was present in Brawl but I'd love to hear about cheating the system.

Also, 2 stock 6 minute is better than 2 stock 5 minute.

2 stock X+1 minute is usually (within reason) going to be better than 2 stock X minute.

Good to know, I like 6 minutes better myself, but I've been seeing a lot of push for 5, and heard we only used 6 to allow time for the spectator to DC back in 3DS.

Cool, then I'll elaborate. I'm not sure what exactly was fixed from brawl, but what I'm referring to is the game treating the stages like cards in a deck. When you press random on a freshly powered-up WiiU, the game will actually choose a stage at random. If you play another match and choose random, however, the game will never select a stage that has already been chosen at random. Only until all the stages have been played exactly once will it reset and allow previously-picked stages to be chosen by random. A lot like cards in a deck getting shuffled after you run out of cards.

My experience with Smash 4 is that this detail remains in the game. I don't know if there's not an easy way to reset the random selection now and that's the fix you mean, however.

Anyways, since it acts like a deck of cards, that means the deck can be stacked. Let's take an example of someone with a character that they were not comfortable playing on lylat cruise in a region that had 5 starter stages. This player could go to a setup and hit random twice. If one of those stages was Lylat, he would know that he could freely pick his character on that station even if he was the 3rd match to play on that station. What if someone did this to every station before a tournament started, if they had the ability to help set up? Then they could, in principal know the likelyhood of lylat cruise happening for their first few matches. It's entirely possible to rig the game in your favor given the opportunity.

Alternatively, someone could know what stages were and were not possible by simply watching a station. If you watch the first 4 matches on a stage you would know 100% percent what the next stage picked would be. That doesn't exactly sound random to me. Although it's getting the "would anyone actually do this?" region, but in principle, a group of people could track every station and share this information with the members of the group to gain the advantage. Remember, money IS involved in these events.

I think the most problematic, however, is when someone isn't out to cheat. Let's say my side of the tournament is ahead and so I'm watching a match that will decide who my next opponent will be. Their first match is randomly chosen to be battlefield, and the set continues. When the set ends, I'm right there, so the convenient thing to do is have the next match at this station. So, when picking a character am I just expected to not remember that the first stage has the overwhelming likelihood of not being battlefield? (if I wasn't watching the station up until that point, it would be 1/25 chance) How can I NOT factor this information into my choice of character if it does affect my choice? You might not consider it cheating because I didn't initiate it, but it still feels like information I shouldn't have, and it can cheapen the experience.

There might be counter-measures and ways to reset the random select, but that means we'd have to have rules in place to preform them every match OR carefully police this type of thing. But so long as Random Stage Select acts like a deck of cards, cheating can occur.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Good to know, I like 6 minutes better myself, but I've been seeing a lot of push for 5, and heard we only used 6 to allow time for the spectator to DC back in 3DS.

Cool, then I'll elaborate. I'm not sure what exactly was fixed from brawl, but what I'm referring to is the game treating the stages like cards in a deck. When you press random on a freshly powered-up WiiU, the game will actually choose a stage at random. If you play another match and choose random, however, the game will never select a stage that has already been chosen at random. Only until all the stages have been played exactly once will it reset and allow previously-picked stages to be chosen by random. A lot like cards in a deck getting shuffled after you run out of cards.

What? This is news to me. I've had hours-long Sm4sh sessions with my buddy and our Random Stage Select would be:

Lylat
BF
FD
SV
T&C
Skyloft
Wuhu
Delfino
Halberd
KJ64
Castle Siege
Duck Hunt

And when we would play, we always just do Random. We got KJ64 twice, and Skyloft/Wuhu many, many more times than that. We almost never get Duck Hunt, but get SV and T&C a lot. Is my game's deck malfunctioned?

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

What? This is news to me. I've had hours-long Sm4sh sessions with my buddy and our Random Stage Select would be:

Lylat
BF
FD
SV
T&C
Skyloft
Wuhu
Delfino
Halberd
KJ64
Castle Siege
Duck Hunt

And when we would play, we always just do Random. We got KJ64 twice, and Skyloft/Wuhu many, many more times than that. We almost never get Duck Hunt, but get SV and T&C a lot. Is my game's deck malfunctioned?

It's not impossible that my experience was the skewed one, where I just happened to get an oddly uniform spread of stages. Again, I'm speaking from personal experience, so I might not be right.

Did you always go random or did you choose stages manually in between? Also, did you ever exit the game mode? These things could conceivably refresh the list.

Is it possible that some of the stages you mentioned coming up more than others showed up at the bottom of one deck, and then the top of the next? That could make it feel like the stages are coming up more often.

I guess in the end there's a pretty simple test for this. We can set up the random stage select with 2 stages and continually press Random twice. If we get Stage A, Stage B or Stage B, Stage A but never the same stage twice in a pair after 14 tests, then we'd conclusively prove (like, actually PROVE prove with statistics, which I think is super cool but I could see why that would be less cool to others) that it acts like a deck of cards. If we ever get two in a row during that time, we'd know that it's truly random.

I can test this on my 3DS but I don't own a Wii U. I'll edit this post when I get to that.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

It's not impossible that my experience was the skewed one, where I just happened to get an oddly uniform spread of stages. Again, I'm speaking from personal experience, so I might not be right.

Did you always go random or did you choose stages manually in between? Also, did you ever exit the game mode? These things could conceivably refresh the list.

Is it possible that some of the stages you mentioned coming up more than others showed up at the bottom of one deck, and then the top of the next? That could make it feel like the stages are coming up more often.

I guess in the end there's a pretty simple test for this. We can set up the random stage select with 2 stages and continually press Random twice. If we get Stage A, Stage B or Stage B, Stage A but never the same stage twice in a pair after 14 tests, then we'd conclusively prove (like, actually PROVE prove with statistics, which I think is super cool but I could see why that would be less cool to others) that it acts like a deck of cards. If we ever get two in a row during that time, we'd know that it's truly random.

I can test this on my 3DS but I don't own a Wii U. I'll edit this post when I get to that.

We never exited the mode or selected stages manually. Next time he comes over I'll keep a record of when we got which stages

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

Huh. By any chance to you guys set the options to "choose random stage" rather than going to the stage select screen and then pressing start?

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Huh. By any chance to you guys set the options to "choose random stage" rather than going to the stage select screen and then pressing start?

No, we go to the stage select screen and press start...

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

Ah, I had something weird happen to me when I did that mode, but I think it was because I changed a cpu's level. Anyways, I just tested it out on the 3DS version (1.0.5) and it most certainly behaves like a deck of cards when you go to the stage select screen and press start. I checked 14 times which means I'm 99.9999% sure (and yes, I'm not just adding extra 9's, that's the precise percent), I would still like someone to check the Wii U version, but it looks like "random stage" is still not quite random.

 

[madworlder]

this should not be difficult to test- 1 stock, two stages available in random select. Random stage, kill yourself to show a winner, repeat 100 times, if it always alternates 100% of the time, we can be confident it is not actually random. This is useful information to know.

 

[Linkshot]

There's also the chance that the game limits how many cards are in each "deck" it generates. Like, you have 13 stages on Random but it only generates a deck of 9 before shuffling, leaving 4 stages out each time.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

this should not be difficult to test- 1 stock, two stages available in random select. Random stage, kill yourself to show a winner, repeat 100 times, if it always alternates 100% of the time, we can be confident it is not actually random. This is useful information to know.

I'm telling you, 100 times is very excessive. You only need to do it 14 times before having the same margin of error as particle physicists need to consider their data scientific fact. Even after just 7 trials you will be 99% sure of it. Please do not subject yourself to 100 trials.

There's also the chance that the game limits how many cards are in each "deck" it generates. Like, you have 13 stages on Random but it only generates a deck of 9 before shuffling, leaving 4 stages out each time.

Urg, like what Casinos do to stop you from counting cards (they also shove 6+ decks together, but that's another story), shuffling the deck early. So yes, it's possible that checking what the game does for only than 2 stages isn't sufficient to check what it does for more than 2. At this point I'm just sort of hoping it's not what the game does, because testing it is a pain XD. Though even if it does it like that, it means there's still some level of predictability to how it does things, (even if it means you can't completely predict the final stage) and therefore it's an exploitable system.

 

[dav3yb]

I'm about to test out the random select with 2 stages, using wuhu and duckhunt.

Here are the results:

DuckHunt
Wuhu
-
DuckHunt
Wuhu
-
Wuhu
DuckHunt
-
DuckHunt
Wuhu
-
Wuhu
DuckHunt
-
DuckHunt
Wuhu
-

This is where i stopped. It does seem to follow along the lines of "make sure each is picked before repeating"
I decided to turn on a 3rd and do just a few tests as well, which was skyloft, results:

Wuhu
Duckhunt
Skyloft
-
Skyloft
Wuhu
Duckhunt
-
Duckhunt
Wuhu
Skyloft

the first time i ran the test with 3 stages it did hit one back to back in what it think was a separate set, but i think i hadn't exited something and my timing/count was off. but overall it does seem to cycle though every random stage first before it'll pick one up again.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

I'm about to test out the random select with 2 stages, using wuhu and duckhunt.

Here are the results:

DuckHunt
Wuhu
-
DuckHunt
Wuhu
-
Wuhu
DuckHunt
-
DuckHunt
Wuhu
-
Wuhu
DuckHunt
-
DuckHunt
Wuhu
-

This is where i stopped. It does seem to follow along the lines of "make sure each is picked before repeating"
I decided to turn on a 3rd and do just a few tests as well, which was skyloft, results:

Wuhu
Duckhunt
Skyloft
-
Skyloft
Wuhu
Duckhunt
-
Duckhunt
Wuhu
Skyloft

the first time i ran the test with 3 stages it did hit one back to back in what it think was a separate set, but i think i hadn't exited something and my timing/count was off. but overall it does seem to cycle though every random stage first before it'll pick one up again.

Awesome, thanks for testing it out! From your 2-stage data alone, we can be 98% sure that the game goes through every stage before allowing a picked stage to be selectable again. Also, it seems to exhibit this behavior for 3 stages as well. I actually got that same blip when I was switching trials as well, so I think the game holds on to part of it's "list" even when you switch the stages in the random stage select.

Combined with my test that conclusively proved this Deck-like behavior for the 3DS, I think it's fairly safe to say that Smash 4 chooses an order for the stages rather than being truly random.

 

[Linkshot]

What can be done to test "early shuffling" is put a large number of stages on (20? 30?) and count until it gets a repeat stage. If it does do the full deck, then doing all stages on and just getting the full deck twice should be proof enough.

 

[Piford]

Can I just say does this really matter? Random isn't a good way to decide stages regardless of if it can be rigged because it could randomly provide a huge advantage to one player over another.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Can I just say does this really matter? Random isn't a good way to decide stages regardless of if it can be rigged because it could randomly provide a huge advantage to one player over another.

In tournament sure, but I play friendlies with random stages (as everyone should!) and find it very significant.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

What can be done to test "early shuffling" is put a large number of stages on (20? 30?) and count until it gets a repeat stage. If it does do the full deck, then doing all stages on and just getting the full deck twice should be proof enough.

Because there'd be so many stages, I think twice would in fact be sufficient proof.

Can I just say does this really matter? Random isn't a good way to decide stages regardless of if it can be rigged because it could randomly provide a huge advantage to one player over another.

I mean, do you have another topic to discuss? If not, it isn't really helpful to say that a discussion doesn't matter.

Even if there isn't a tangible benefit for knowing something, It can still be interesting to pick apart how the game works.

 

[Piford]

Because there'd be so many stages, I think twice would in fact be sufficient proof.



I mean, do you have another topic to discuss? If not, it isn't really helpful to say that a discussion doesn't matter.

Even if there isn't a tangible benefit for knowing something, It can still be interesting to pick apart how the game works.

I'm not saying the discussion shouldn't happen, but this thread might not be the best place for it (granted it seems like you figured it out so it doesn't really matter at this point).

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Does music have any effect at all on the stages we play on? I know Gamer likes to have no music, but I'm talking about the big 13 that we all want to be legal. Is it just a matter of preference, or are there actual gameplay benefits to having specific songs play?

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

I'm not saying the discussion shouldn't happen, but this thread might not be the best place for it (granted it seems like you figured it out so it doesn't really matter at this point).

Sure, that's fair then. Though as we didn't have another topic, I felt it was a decent enough place. If it was sort of obscuring an existing topic, I would agree that there would have been a better place for it.

Does music have any effect at all on the stages we play on? I know Gamer likes to have no music, but I'm talking about the big 13 that we all want to be legal. Is it just a matter of preference, or are there actual gameplay benefits to having specific songs play?

I'm really not sure what you mean. I certainly don't know off the top of my head of any songs change gameplay elements.

I know that I've experienced better play when a song I enjoy plays, so that is something. There might be value in setting the possible songs to high-energy ones, and take out songs like.... Bath time (vocal mix). The 'vocals' in this case are dogs barking I believe. You could do that at your locals, but that doesn't seem like a thing we should be trying to mandate or anything.

If I missed your point, please correct me.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I'm really not sure what you mean. I certainly don't know off the top of my head of any songs change gameplay elements.

I know that I've experienced better play when a song I enjoy plays, so that is something. There might be value in setting the possible songs to high-energy ones, and take out songs like.... Bath time (vocal mix). The 'vocals' in this case are dogs barking I believe. You could do that at your locals, but that doesn't seem like a thing we should be trying to mandate or anything.

If I missed your point, please correct me.

No, you didnt miss anything. I was just curious about the effect of the song selection on the gameplay of these stages, to see if there was something I was missing, and it turns out there isn't. (though I hate every song on Smashville except the Tortimer Island Remix)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Technically the music doesn't impact the Gamer stage itself, it just makes it easier/harder to hear the cues for 5-Volt since they're all pretty quiet. If you mess with the BGM vs. SFX volumes in settings I imagine any track would be workable but that's a bit too much effort for a single stage I think.

 

[DavemanCozy]

There's to be a small-town monthly at the Poacher's Arms in London ON this Sunday. Here's the stage-list they'll be using this Sunday:

Starter stages:
Final Destination, Smashville, Battlefield, Town and City, Lylat Cruise.
Counterpick Stages:
Kongo Jungle, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Duck Hunt, Halberd.

Recommendations you would suggest to make this better?

I myself would like to see Pokemon Stadium 2 and Wuhu.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

There's to be a small-town monthly at the Poacher's Arms in London ON this Sunday. Here's the stage-list they'll be using this Sunday:

Starter stages:
Final Destination, Smashville, Battlefield, Town and City, Lylat Cruise.
Counterpick Stages:
Kongo Jungle, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Duck Hunt, Halberd.

Recommendations you would suggest to make this better?

I myself would like to see Pokemon Stadium 2 and Wuhu.

Skyloft too, don't forget that.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

There's to be a small-town monthly at the Poacher's Arms in London ON this Sunday. Here's the stage-list they'll be using this Sunday:

Starter stages:
Final Destination, Smashville, Battlefield, Town and City, Lylat Cruise.
Counterpick Stages:
Kongo Jungle, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Duck Hunt, Halberd.

Recommendations you would suggest to make this better?

I myself would like to see Pokemon Stadium 2 and Wuhu.

add skyloft plz

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

There's to be a small-town monthly at the Poacher's Arms in London ON this Sunday. Here's the stage-list they'll be using this Sunday:

Starter stages:
Final Destination, Smashville, Battlefield, Town and City, Lylat Cruise.
Counterpick Stages:
Kongo Jungle, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Duck Hunt, Halberd.

Recommendations you would suggest to make this better?

I myself would like to see Pokemon Stadium 2 and Wuhu.

Like the others before, I'll tell you to also add Skyloft.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Skyloft too, don't forget that.

Have you done a stage analysis thread of this stage? And if you have, could you link it here?

I myself have written many things about PS2, but I'm not very familiar with Skyloft myself and I wouldn't know what to say if anyone tried the "no, this is what's bad about it" game with me. It would be great to see a summary of it at least.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Have you done a stage analysis thread of this stage? And if you have, could you link it here?

I myself have written many things about PS2, but I'm not very familiar with Skyloft myself and I wouldn't know what to say if anyone tried the "no, this is what's bad about it" game with me. It would be great to see a summary of it at least.

Beep boop.

The only real omission in the analysis is details on hitting the island itself as the stage flies around. It was uncommon enough that even with me deliberately trying to jump at it as I flew around I managed to hit myself exactly once. Since then I decided not to bother.

 

[LiteralGrill]

SC: Only one more stage related question! Some folks have wanted to remove the starter and counterpick distinction all together and just have one large list to strike from to start a match. This is commonly known as FLSS or Full List Stage Striking. There have been many arguments on how this could be a better system for Smash stage selection, was this ever considered for Evo? If not, could it ever be put up to consideration?

JC: We could definitely do that. We are only limited by the stages in the available pool, and if its just a matter of moving them all to starter stages and then striking from there, that would be acceptable.

Well what do ya'll say to that? FLSS at Evo?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Well what do ya'll say to that?

Is it Christmas? It must be Christmas.

Yes please.