Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[thehard]

So as of right now KTAR XII has Pilotwings legal

Lmao(?) I just asked Keitaro about this now.

 

[Pazx]

@Keitaro switch Pilotwings for Skyloft and you have a good stagelist (and ruleset actually, well done). Pilotwings is a bad stage as both planes can be camped, particularly by characters such as Puff, ROB, Ness, other projectile/sharking characters. I've had tournament matches go to time there.

 

[Piford]

Pilotwings but not Skyloft or Wuhu Island? Also, tournaments really ought to start using the actual name for the stages. It's Halberd not Battleship Halberd. I really fail to see why you need to add battleship if your taking off the plaza in Delfino Plaza. Also it's actually Kongo Jungle 64 this time, and Pilotwings is one word.

 

[Pazx]

Pilotwings but not Skyloft or Wuhu Island? Also, tournaments really ought to start using the actual name for the stages. It's Halberd not Battleship Halberd. I really fail to see why you need to add battleship if your taking off the plaza in Delfino Plaza. Also it's actually Kongo Jungle 64 this time, and Pilotwings is one word.

Remember how Pokemon Stadium was called Pokemon Stadium 1 for the entirety of Brawl's lifetime? You can tell every stage list was just copy pasted from another one.

If Keitaro wants to copy/paste this he should as it fixes a lot of issues with his stagelist (including calling starters neutrals? no thx). I also highly recommend moving 2 stages to the starter list (eg Town and City, Lylat or Duck Hunt). I encourage @ thehard or @Firefoxx or someone actually attending to quote this post in the thread so he sees it.

Starters (3):
Smashville
Battlefield
Final Destination

Counter-picks (8):
Halberd
Kongo Jungle 64
Duck Hunt
Town and City
Delfino Plaza
Skyloft
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege

 

[thehard]

"The TO put Pilotwings on by accident, it will be taken off shortly. Basically the stage list is the same as APEX but with Kongo 64 added to singles."

I'm not going to this tournament so someone else should probably quote that, @ Pazx .

 

[Piford]

Remember how Pokemon Stadium was called Pokemon Stadium 1 for the entirety of Brawl's lifetime? You can tell every stage list was just copy pasted from another one.

If Keitaro wants to copy/paste this he should as it fixes a lot of issues with his stagelist (including calling starters neutrals? no thx). I also highly recommend moving 2 stages to the starter list (eg Town and City, Lylat or Duck Hunt). I encourage @ thehard or @Firefoxx or someone actually attending to quote this post in the thread so he sees it.

Starters (3):
Smashville
Battlefield
Final Destination

Counter-picks (8):
Halberd
Kongo Jungle 64
Duck Hunt
Town and City
Delfino Plaza
Skyloft
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege

You gotta advocate to add Wuhu Island too.

 

[Pazx]

@Jigglymaster you should help us push for Skyloft. Banning miis is just as silly as banning Skyloft. Incidentally, it's one of 2222 Brawler's best stages (and not a good stage for Diddy at all. Do the right thing).

 

[Nabbitnator]

So as of right now KTAR XII has Pilotwings legal

I never saw pilot wings as a messed up stage. It seems pretty good.

 

[Piford]

@Jigglymaster you should help us push for Skyloft. Banning miis is just as silly as banning Skyloft. Incidentally, it's one of 2222 Brawler's best stages (and not a good stage for Diddy at all. Do the right thing).

Aren't Skyloft and Wuhu Island Diddy's worst stages outside of Kongo Jungle 64?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Got a thread on the Bridge of Eldin up now. It's a bit longer than I expected but it should cover all the important bits.

Also, a question. For some of the...less competitive, how much do we care about kill %? Like the springs on 75M or anything Ridley does on Pyrosphere?

 

[Piford]

Got a thread on the Bridge of Eldin up now. It's a bit longer than I expected but it should cover all the important bits.

Also, a question. For some of the...less competitive, how much do we care about kill %? Like the springs on 75M or anything Ridley does on Pyrosphere?

I mean a general like 10% range? I don't think we really care but there's not much to 75m anyways. Ridley has so many attacks that it's probably not worth it, the amount of damage to own him would probably be the best.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

I was talking local/con tournaments though.

also, have you SEEN some players picking characters?
Leffen has his stuff sorted in 2 seconds flat!

Counting that the gamepad can't be used by either player as a controller due to preference of one available option, it's already being used for nothing. Afterwards, it can even be used as a display for percentages.

How long does it take 3 captain falcons to SD 2 or 3 times? Try it yourselves.

There is NO obstacle I can think of that ruins the use of these stages.

You claim there is no obstacle, but you failed to address how to make the amount of time the same for all matches when you have to kill 3 entire players. Even if it doesn't take "too long" how do we make sure the times are the same for each match? That's REALLY important. If it goes to time and someone would have died in 2 seconds, and it took 5 seconds longer than average to kill everyone, that is a legitimate change based on dumb factor.

Also, I don't mean to be rude but I don't think you're really considering the reality of the situation. You are requiring that every setup have 2 gamecube controllers attached to them at all times, and for the gamepad to not have its battery die. The tournament I was just at had 7 set-ups. That's 14 controllers we're just buying I guess? Because what's the alternative? You flag down a group of designated suiciders every time a set wants to go on one of these 3 extra stages?

If the controllers were already there and it's just the two of you in the set, does one person hold two controllers while the other grabs the gamepad while you jump off the ledge with these extra characters? Then you fumble to get them back into their places and pick up the controllers that you're supposed to be playing with? I just don't see it being reasonable.

Norfair

On a different note, why would 2d stages be ban-worthy? It's different, but what character gets a legitimately gamebreaking advantage (or is gamebreakingly crippled) by the 2d mechanics? Duck Hunt is a pretty great stage and would be non-trivially frustrating to lose; these 2d mechanics would need to have some serious problems for banning them to make sense, and I haven't heard that they have those kinds of problems at all.

I completely agree with the Norfair situation. It's not about the hazards, but the odd placement of the platforms. Also, anyone with a good airspeed stat can just about teleport around the stage (at least they're not invincible anymore) and this can become rather abusive on slower characters.

With the 2D's, changing the physics and attributes of certain characters doesn't feel right to me. We have only confirmed 2 characters that have their spotdodge invincibility reduced, but part of the problem is there is likely many more. If we could study it and confirm only 2 characters are affected, that's a different story. Until then we must assume that it happens to more characters than this. I understand that some people require a stage to be flashy and unpredictable to even consider banning it, but I believe there are other criteria. Obviously some would disagree, but if a stage messed about with the physics or attributes of the cast, I feel it should be banned, especially if it was selective in the changes.

Like, imagine if there was a stage that had the windy effect from Pokemon Stadium 2 but at about half strength all the time. Now imagine a stage with that effect except it only applies to characters with the letter 'i' in their name. Why should this be acceptable? Not only are the physics of this stage different than every other stage in our list, but the effects aren't even consistently applied to each character!

If you don't consider the attributes or options of a character part of the physics, fine. Would we accept a stage that increased the damage of all attacks by 3% if the move animates a part of the character's body growing? What about a stage that reduced shield hp proportionate for a character to how round they look while blocking? How about a stage that increased the knockback of all throws proportionately to a character's jump height?

If these hypothetical stages seem like a different game entirely to you, then I do not believe that we should be fine with a stage that reduces the invincibility frames of dodges based on how long a character is animated to move into the background.

I never saw pilot wings as a messed up stage. It seems pretty good.

Some of the rings can kill you, and they're in the centre of the stage. It's so much worse than any of Skyloft's hazards due to the middle-stage placement. If we're considering Skyloft suspect in the least, Pilotwings should not be used. Also circle camping.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

To be honest, I'd be fine with stages doing any of those things, but this isn't even that extreme. A handful of moves have z-axis behavior that I tend to view as buggy. Greninja's fsmash that has bigger hitboxes facing left than facing right is really the best example; there is no way that was intended. The 2d stages fix this buggy behavior for a mild effect on the game, a mild positive effect, and that Greninja case is by far the most significant one. I'm not really seeing how this suggests a ban is appropriate, and it not being evenly distributed among characters is kinda par for the course in that some stage features inevitably affect some characters more than others. Palutena has a platform cancel glitch with Lightweight. Not every stage has platforms; that's an asymmetry in which a mechanic (that is almost definitely a bug) only affects one character but only on some stages. It's fine; you just account for that in the stage selection procedures, and it's very likely this situation will matter way less to you than many other concerns.

I don't consider Skyloft suspect in the least and don't think the hitboxes on Pilotwings, while more obstructive than those of any other traveling stage, would be ban worthy either. They're a minor point. However, the defensive positions it allows are extremely strong to the point of being gamebreaking (especially on the yellow plane where in a majority of match-ups it's very simple to make approach impossible but red plane is a campfest too), and Pilotwings generally has awful gameplay dynamics all around even if everyone just chose not to abuse the easy to abuse things on the stage. The tilting is actually really extreme in a very polarizing way on yellow plane and red plane is just the new Venom which pretty much means the only way it's not abusive is if you just pretend the bottom half of the stage doesn't exist. We had it legal in one tournament here and it was terrible even though we hadn't really mastered abusing it, and it wasn't subtle how ugly abusing it was going to look if we didn't ban it. It would not even be among the first 30 stages I would have legal; 75m is totally legit a better competitive stage than Pilotwings which is not intended to be a praise point for 75m.

 

[Pazx]

We can all agree that Pilotwings is better than Orbital Gate Assault, but that's about it.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

@ Amazing Ampharos I really don't think you can argue in good faith that the community would accept any of the nonsense stages I described as legal... The problem is that the changes on 2D stages are actually more extreme because they're insidious. They can't be noticed or confirmed while actually playing the game. That is not to say they don't have any effect on a match, however.

Clearly I'm talking about the reduction in spot and air dodges, not the fix for Greninja's hitboxes (and correction, this is the most significant known case). I don't know why you try and claim that I want to ban 2D for that reason alone when in reality, I have no real problem with it. The difference between the hypothetical stages I listed (and even your Palutena example) is that they can be easily noticed and therefore you could "account for that in the stage selection procedures" as you describe. An unlisted change in frame data for dodges cannot be noticed in this way.

Honestly, we still wouldn't even KNOW about the changes to dodges if Yoshi didn't have an accidental z-axis-based dodge on a taunt. The logical thing to conclude when your dodge doesn't work is that you mistimed it, not that the rules have changed for that stage alone. Although it may be hard to notice the reason, the effect a missed spot-dodge has on a game can be absolutely massive.

Additionally, as the full list changes is yet unknown, it feels inappropriate to claim that my concerns on the issue will not matter. Until someone can provide proper frame data for spot dodges and air dodges on 2D stages, we must assume there are differences we are not yet aware of.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

With the 2D's, changing the physics and attributes of certain characters doesn't feel right to me. We have only confirmed 2 characters that have their spotdodge invincibility reduced, but part of the problem is there is likely many more. If we could study it and confirm only 2 characters are affected, that's a different story. Until then we must assume that it happens to more characters than this. I understand that some people require a stage to be flashy and unpredictable to even consider banning it, but I believe there are other criteria. Obviously some would disagree, but if a stage messed about with the physics or attributes of the cast, I feel it should be banned, especially if it was selective in the changes.

Okay, what other criteria? "Changing physics and hitboxes?" Pokemon Stadium 2 changes the physics. Hitbox changes are minor and can be adapted to. Stage knowledge, guys. C'mon.

Like, imagine if there was a stage that had the windy effect from Pokemon Stadium 2 but at about half strength all the time. Now imagine a stage with that effect except it only applies to characters with the letter 'i' in their name. Why should this be acceptable? Not only are the physics of this stage different than every other stage in our list, but the effects aren't even consistently applied to each character!

Yes, yes it would be acceptable, unless it became degenerate or random.

If you don't consider the attributes or options of a character part of the physics, fine. Would we accept a stage that increased the damage of all attacks by 3% if the move animates a part of the character's body growing?

Yes, yes it would be acceptable, unless it became degenerate or random.

What about a stage that reduced shield hp proportionate for a character to how round they look while blocking?

Yes, yes it would be acceptable, unless it became degenerate or random.

How about a stage that increased the knockback of all throws proportionately to a character's jump height?

Yes, yes it would be acceptable, unless it became degenerate or random.

If these hypothetical stages seem like a different game entirely to you,

But they don't. If they were a part of smash, they'd be part of the same game, pretty much by definition.

This is why we need decent criteria! This is exactly the same crap as the people who say "we should ban Pokemon Stadium because it changes the physics". No, no we shouldn't; that's a terrible argument and you should feel bad. The physics changes are not random or degenerate and lead to more interesting, varied gameplay. That's not banworthy, that's laudable. It increases the skill ceiling, requiring players to know more and understand the game better.

What criteria do we use? I use these:

Are the stages degenerate? That is, do they lower the skill ceiling to a degree where the "best player" is relatively trivial compared to the rest of the game?
Are the stages excessively random? Will the better player often lose due to inherent randomness overwhelming gameplay?
Do the stages turn the game into fighting the stage, rather than the opponent? This really belongs under "degenerate" but bears mentioning as a special subclass for various reasons.

Do these apply to the stage in question? No? No? No? Then don't ban it! Everything else falls under "can reasonably be adapted to", and I'll keep saying this until it sticks: if you're complaining about losing because you did not know something about a stage, then you're doing competitive play wrong.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

We can all agree that Pilotwings is better than Orbital Gate Assault, but that's about it.

Err, what? Pilotwings has camping spots that we know to be degenerate and broken in a great many matchups; the worst you can say about OGA is that there's not a whole lot of consistent, stable ground. This is like comparing PokeFloats to Hyrule Temple - no, OGA is not the worse stage just because it moves around a lot.

I really don't think you can argue in good faith that the community would accept any of the nonsense stages I described as legal...

Yeah, and that's because the community is full of scrubs who would rather ban **** than adapt to it, and who consider stages to be dispensible - they'd rather play SV all day anyways. I hold that attitude in great contempt with good reason.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

@ Budget Player Cadet_
I don't know if you're aware, but you come off as extremely condescending and belittling when you state that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a stupid scrub. It's very bad for general discussion to frame things in this manner, as it makes people just not want to deal with you. Just going to point out for you.

I apologize for using a different criteria than you do. But just because I'm of the opinion that spot dodges should have the same amount of invincibility frames on every stage does not mean I want to play on only SV all day long. Lumping people who think differently than you do in an easy category that you already hold in contempt isn't really going to move this discussion forward.

I do not believe that the simple fact that physics change during a stage makes it bannable, please don't tell me I should feel bad about an argument I didn't make. PS2 is not broken because the changes in physics happen with warning and can be camped out if they are not in your favor. However, a stage with a permanent change in physics cannot be handled in this manner, and it could very well invalidate characters or even cause degeneracy in gameplay.

While I understand there are a fundamentally limited amount of stages, I personally believe there should be some sort of consistency to general gameplay. If you don't, that's fine, but I do ask that you accept that sometimes people won't agree with you and that doesn't need to make them bad people.

My big question for your claim that the changes are necessarily ones that can be adapted to is... What are these changes? If literally no one in the community at large knows the list of changes that occur on 2D stages how are we expected to adapt to them? I understand you very strongly feel that every single detail of a stage must be memorized or one is not allowed to complain about losing on a stage, but even you have to admit it's difficult to memorize a list of changes that hasn't been made yet.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@ Budget Player Cadet_
I don't know if you're aware, but you come off as extremely condescending and belittling when you state that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a stupid scrub.

Well, I'm not sure how else I'm supposed to frame this. We're banning things with no good reason. This:

I apologize for using a different criteria than you do. But just because I'm of the opinion that spot dodges should have the same amount of invincibility frames on every stage

This is not a good reason. If a part of the game involves the amount of time a move has invincibility changing from stage to stage, or range changing, or the like, then that's something people can adapt to. There's no reason for it to be banned. It's not random. It doesn't lower the skill ceiling. In fact, the real problem is that it raises the skill ceiling too much.

does not mean I want to play on only SV all day long.

I didn't say that. I was referring to the disappointing number of German players who would just as soon play every game there.

However, a stage with a permanent change in physics cannot be handled in this manner, and it could very well invalidate characters or even cause degeneracy in gameplay.

Then we deal with it on a case-by-case basis, and check to see how the characters react. Degeneracy is one of my ban criterias.

While I understand there are a fundamentally limited amount of stages, I personally believe there should be some sort of consistency to general gameplay. If you don't, that's fine, but I do ask that you accept that sometimes people won't agree with you and that doesn't need to make them bad people.

It doesn't make them bad people, but it does make them wrong. See, here's the thing. If Smash contains something like your examples, then that makes them a part of the gameplay. And unless that part of the gameplay is somehow broken, I don't see how we can justify banning them.

My big question for your claim that the changes are necessarily ones that can be adapted to is... What are these changes? If literally no one in the community at large knows the list of changes that occur on 2D stages how are we expected to adapt to them?

The hard way: we study and learn. No one in the community at large knew about Wario's nair to waft combo before we saw it for the first time; how were we supposed to adapt to that? See, this line of argumentation just seems bizarre to me. Yeah, okay, there's stuff we don't know. Let's find out then! And if we don't know it, and our opponent does, and we lose as a result... Well, ****. Welcome to the competitive arena. If I go into a competitive gaming environment, and I know powerful strategies and techniques that my opponents do not, then that information asymmetry is a completely legitimate reason for me to win.

I understand you very strongly feel that every single detail of a stage must be memorized or one is not allowed to complain about losing on a stage, but even you have to admit it's difficult to memorize a list of changes that hasn't been made yet.

Yes, but then we should worry about making that list. We don't understand something? Let's try to understand that thing! Let's figure out how it works! This is how competitive play evolves. I mean, is there anything to this beyond "I don't want to adapt"? Because in my eyes, the moment you say "we shouldn't have to adapt", the conversation is over. You're no longer talking about competitive play.

 

[Nabbitnator]

You claim there is no obstacle, but you failed to address how to make the amount of time the same for all matches when you have to kill 3 entire players. Even if it doesn't take "too long" how do we make sure the times are the same for each match? That's REALLY important. If it goes to time and someone would have died in 2 seconds, and it took 5 seconds longer than average to kill everyone, that is a legitimate change based on dumb factor.

Also, I don't mean to be rude but I don't think you're really considering the reality of the situation. You are requiring that every setup have 2 gamecube controllers attached to them at all times, and for the gamepad to not have its battery die. The tournament I was just at had 7 set-ups. That's 14 controllers we're just buying I guess? Because what's the alternative? You flag down a group of designated suiciders every time a set wants to go on one of these 3 extra stages?

If the controllers were already there and it's just the two of you in the set, does one person hold two controllers while the other grabs the gamepad while you jump off the ledge with these extra characters? Then you fumble to get them back into their places and pick up the controllers that you're supposed to be playing with? I just don't see it being reasonable.



I completely agree with the Norfair situation. It's not about the hazards, but the odd placement of the platforms. Also, anyone with a good airspeed stat can just about teleport around the stage (at least they're not invincible anymore) and this can become rather abusive on slower characters.

With the 2D's, changing the physics and attributes of certain characters doesn't feel right to me. We have only confirmed 2 characters that have their spotdodge invincibility reduced, but part of the problem is there is likely many more. If we could study it and confirm only 2 characters are affected, that's a different story. Until then we must assume that it happens to more characters than this. I understand that some people require a stage to be flashy and unpredictable to even consider banning it, but I believe there are other criteria. Obviously some would disagree, but if a stage messed about with the physics or attributes of the cast, I feel it should be banned, especially if it was selective in the changes.

Like, imagine if there was a stage that had the windy effect from Pokemon Stadium 2 but at about half strength all the time. Now imagine a stage with that effect except it only applies to characters with the letter 'i' in their name. Why should this be acceptable? Not only are the physics of this stage different than every other stage in our list, but the effects aren't even consistently applied to each character!

If you don't consider the attributes or options of a character part of the physics, fine. Would we accept a stage that increased the damage of all attacks by 3% if the move animates a part of the character's body growing? What about a stage that reduced shield hp proportionate for a character to how round they look while blocking? How about a stage that increased the knockback of all throws proportionately to a character's jump height?

If these hypothetical stages seem like a different game entirely to you, then I do not believe that we should be fine with a stage that reduces the invincibility frames of dodges based on how long a character is animated to move into the background.





Some of the rings can kill you, and they're in the centre of the stage. It's so much worse than any of Skyloft's hazards due to the middle-stage placement. If we're considering Skyloft suspect in the least, Pilotwings should not be used. Also circle camping.

I did not know that....

 

[Piford]

If you are worried about a list of changes for 2D stages, go make them yourself.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

@ Budget Player Cadet_

It's been a pretty long time since I've had a conversation on these boards where someone else and I quoted individual parts of a post like this; I feel like I'm 17 again. I don't think I'm going to partake though, doesn't feel constructive.

I expect that you can frame this conversation by both stating your opinion and not being a jerk towards those who disagree.

All in all, it's clear that you have a very fundamentalist approach to choosing and banning stages. You believe that because an element was programmed into a game, that makes it necessarily part of the game, and that a stage should only ever be removed from the list if it creates an extremely noticeable negative impact on gameplay. And this is a very valuable opinion that absolutely needs to be expressed every time someone wants to ban something.

However, I think it would lower your levels of frustration if you realized that there are other methods to choosing a stage list, and those can be also valid (FD BF SV only is not one of them). You see, we as a community have the power to choose a stage list that shapes play in a way that might not contain every non-broken element of the game.

We see this with the replacement of FD with Palutaina's Temple. By your criteria, players should learn when the bright transition is and play around it. You can use sounds to track what projectiles are being thrown out, and the shapes of characters still remain. However, smashers are electing to go to an Omega substitute because they prefer consistent gameplay. Although they realize that there are stage differences between FD and every Omega, demanding that the "real stage" be chosen simply because that's more fundamental is just as arbitrary as picking any Omega stage as a standard FD. We could choose to replace FD with a straight-walled Omega and the experience it would shape isn't necessarily a bad one.

You might not agree with the choice, but most regions don't have Windy Hill Zone legal because it's far larger than any legal stage, the curve of the stage changes the trajectory of an arbitary set of projectiles, and the springs (although completely avoidable) can kill you. This is NOT a broken stage by any means, but that doesn't mean we must include in our stagelist. Yet I don't know of a region that is still using it. Why is this? Because the gameplay is very inconsistent to the rest of the game and I believe that it's not a problem for that fact to bother people.

I know you won't agree with this choice, but my region will be removing Pokemon Stadium 2 from the list of stages because litterally no one in our region plays on it. We need to keep the stage list odd-numbered so that striking will work and we didn't see a reason for it to stay. If someone comes to our community and wants to play on it, we will certainly reconsider (though I would predict that the stage would be banned against them every game, though that would be a waste of a ban). Why must a stage be on the list if it's not being used? I don't feel that it absolutely needs to exist on principal alone. A question out of curiosity, are there any characters that thrive off of Pokemon Stadium 2, or is it more a battle of player knowledge?

Also, I do not see the analogue between the appearance of a previously unknown combo and the unknown dodge changes in 2D. If Wario gets a kill combo then at that moment everyone can see that and then they can start to make changes and adapt. If a 2D difference effects a game, it does not make itself known to us. It's a completely seperate problem than anything you've likened it to in the past.

If you are worried about a list of changes for 2D stages, go make them yourself.

Honestly, I don't think I should have to study and quantify every concern I have with this game. I don't think that's fair of you. I'm already discussing and studying a handful of complicated topics, both on and off the boards, and they're already eating into more than a fair amount of my free time.

Just because I'm the one voicing an opinion that many people share, shouldn't mean the burden of solving every problem should fall to me. If it turns out that no other regions are concerned about the changes on 2D, that's fine too, but just fairly certain it can't just be Ottawa that doesn't want to lose stocks to arbitrarily nerfed dodges and not know it.

 

[Krysco]

No items, Diddy Kong only, Smashville! The future of Smash 4!

But in all seriousness I'm fine with the 2D Omegas even though they change a few spot dodges and an fsmash (and possibly more). I only brought them up because I wasn't 100% sure what the changes were on them in comparison to other Omegas. I use Dedede and I'm still fine with them. Final Destination is imo one of Dedede's worst stages since he has no easy means of dealing with projectile spam and the lack of platforms doesn't help either. The knowledge that there's an Omega that can make that stage even worse for Dedede just gives me more reason to either ban Final Destination (which thankfully bans all Omegas as well) or just not pick the stage if it's my choice.

People seem to want a rule that if Lylat is banned then Omega Lylat should be banned too due to the similar ledge issues they have. In the same regard, if you don't want to go to a 2D Omega then you simply need to ban FD even if you're fine with going to a non-2D version of the stage.

However, I do acknowledge an/the issue some people have with stages like 2D Omegas and PS2. Some people like to play Smash and have the rules stay largely the same. You learn your character, their short and full hop heights, walk and dash speeds, traction, spot dodge duration etc. and you keep that knowledge in your head and rely on it. When a stage suddenly makes some of that knowledge useless some people will naturally not like it, especially if it's only one stage. Why deal with a change in game mechanics for one stage when you can simply ban it and keep the rules the same? I'll answer my own question with my own answer and say because the stage itself isn't a problem, there's no excessive stalling issue to my knowledge, no permanent walkoffs and no deadly hazards (this applies to both Omegas and PS2). A competitive match that shows skill between two or more players can still take place. I actually like the change in mechanics personally, opens doors for new things and makes the game more interesting though that is just my opinion.

Inb4myanswerisusedagainstmeforsomethinglike75morTemple.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

No items, Diddy Kong only, Smashville! The future of Smash 4!

But in all seriousness I'm fine with the 2D Omegas even though they change a few spot dodges and an fsmash (and possibly more). I only brought them up because I wasn't 100% sure what the changes were on them in comparison to other Omegas. I use Dedede and I'm still fine with them. Final Destination is imo one of Dedede's worst stages since he has no easy means of dealing with projectile spam and the lack of platforms doesn't help either. The knowledge that there's an Omega that can make that stage even worse for Dedede just gives me more reason to either ban Final Destination (which thankfully bans all Omegas as well) or just not pick the stage if it's my choice.

People seem to want a rule that if Lylat is banned then Omega Lylat should be banned too due to the similar ledge issues they have. In the same regard, if you don't want to go to a 2D Omega then you simply need to ban FD even if you're fine with going to a non-2D version of the stage.

However, I do acknowledge an/the issue some people have with stages like 2D Omegas and PS2. Some people like to play Smash and have the rules stay largely the same. You learn your character, their short and full hop heights, walk and dash speeds, traction, spot dodge duration etc. and you keep that knowledge in your head and rely on it. When a stage suddenly makes some of that knowledge useless some people will naturally not like it, especially if it's only one stage. Why deal with a change in game mechanics for one stage when you can simply ban it and keep the rules the same? I'll answer my own question with my own answer and say because the stage itself isn't a problem, there's no excessive stalling issue to my knowledge, no permanent walkoffs and no deadly hazards (this applies to both Omegas and PS2). A competitive match that shows skill between two or more players can still take place. I actually like the change in mechanics personally, opens doors for new things and makes the game more interesting though that is just my opinion.
Inb4myanswerisusedagainstmeforsomethinglike75morTemple.

I think you worded this a lot better than I did. Part of knowing a character is being able to memorize all of their attributes and just sort of feel the character. If a stage messes with that then although I don't think it should be outright banned, I do feel that someone can argue that this is a problem without being outright "wrong."

If 2D Omegas and Duck Hunt are all legal, does that mean that you would only feel comfortable using Dedede if you banned both FD(+omegas) and Duck Hunt? Also, are you proposing that banning Duck Hunt during Picks and Bans should also ban 2D omegas? That's an idea that could work, but I'm not sure of it's practicality.

I do agree that the changes do not marginalize skill, so I certainly respect the opinion that it should stay in for that reason. However, I do hold the opinion that a stage allowing a skillful exchange between players doesn't necessitate that we include it in the stage list. I understand this isn't the popular opinion, but competitive Smash won't die out if only have 11 legal stages.



Soooo on a similar topic... Why isn't anyone arguing for Kalos Pokemon League to be a legal stage? I've played a 95 stock match on it previously and all the hazards are extremely predictable and only kill at very high precents. It's certainly not a degenerate stage and a skill-based match can certainly be played there. You can use the hazards to wrack up percents on your opponents (but not kill them early), and it's really a very enjoyable framework. Has no one really mentioned it before, or is there there an issue with the stage I'm not aware of?

 

[ShneeOscar]

I think you worded this a lot better than I did. Part of knowing a character is being able to memorize all of their attributes and just sort of feel the character. If a stage messes with that then although I don't think it should be outright banned, I do feel that someone can argue that this is a problem without being outright "wrong."

If 2D Omegas and Duck Hunt are all legal, does that mean that you would only feel comfortable using Dedede if you banned both FD(+omegas) and Duck Hunt? Also, are you proposing that banning Duck Hunt during Picks and Bans should also ban 2D omegas? That's an idea that could work, but I'm not sure of it's practicality.

I do agree that the changes do not marginalize skill, so I certainly respect the opinion that it should stay in for that reason. However, I do hold the opinion that a stage allowing a skillful exchange between players doesn't necessitate that we include it in the stage list. I understand this isn't the popular opinion, but competitive Smash won't die out if only have 11 legal stages.


Soooo on a similar topic... Why isn't anyone arguing for Kalos Pokemon League to be a legal stage? I've played a 95 stock match on it previously and all the hazards are extremely predictable and only kill at very high precents. It's certainly not a degenerate stage and a skill-based match can certainly be played there. You can use the hazards to wrack up percents on your opponents (but not kill them early), and it's really a very enjoyable framework. Has no one really mentioned it before, or is there there an issue with the stage I'm not aware of?

A pool of metal gunk forms in the steel-type chamber, and touching it gives you the "Metal" status (like the metal box item)

 

[Piford]

@ Budget Player Cadet_

It's been a pretty long time since I've had a conversation on these boards where someone else and I quoted individual parts of a post like this; I feel like I'm 17 again. I don't think I'm going to partake though, doesn't feel constructive.

I expect that you can frame this conversation by both stating your opinion and not being a jerk towards those who disagree.

All in all, it's clear that you have a very fundamentalist approach to choosing and banning stages. You believe that because an element was programmed into a game, that makes it necessarily part of the game, and that a stage should only ever be removed from the list if it creates an extremely noticeable negative impact on gameplay. And this is a very valuable opinion that absolutely needs to be expressed every time someone wants to ban something.

However, I think it would lower your levels of frustration if you realized that there are other methods to choosing a stage list, and those can be also valid (FD BF SV only is not one of them). You see, we as a community have the power to choose a stage list that shapes play in a way that might not contain every non-broken element of the game.

We see this with the replacement of FD with Palutaina's Temple. By your criteria, players should learn when the bright transition is and play around it. You can use sounds to track what projectiles are being thrown out, and the shapes of characters still remain. However, smashers are electing to go to an Omega substitute because they prefer consistent gameplay. Although they realize that there are stage differences between FD and every Omega, demanding that the "real stage" be chosen simply because that's more fundamental is just as arbitrary as picking any Omega stage as a standard FD. We could choose to replace FD with a straight-walled Omega and the experience it would shape isn't necessarily a bad one.

You might not agree with the choice, but most regions don't have Windy Hill Zone legal because it's far larger than any legal stage, the curve of the stage changes the trajectory of an arbitary set of projectiles, and the springs (although completely avoidable) can kill you. This is NOT a broken stage by any means, but that doesn't mean we must include in our stagelist. Yet I don't know of a region that is still using it. Why is this? Because the gameplay is very inconsistent to the rest of the game and I believe that it's not a problem for that fact to bother people.

I know you won't agree with this choice, but my region will be removing Pokemon Stadium 2 from the list of stages because litterally no one in our region plays on it. We need to keep the stage list odd-numbered so that striking will work and we didn't see a reason for it to stay. If someone comes to our community and wants to play on it, we will certainly reconsider (though I would predict that the stage would be banned against them every game, though that would be a waste of a ban). Why must a stage be on the list if it's not being used? I don't feel that it absolutely needs to exist on principal alone. A question out of curiosity, are there any characters that thrive off of Pokemon Stadium 2, or is it more a battle of player knowledge?

Also, I do not see the analogue between the appearance of a previously unknown combo and the unknown dodge changes in 2D. If Wario gets a kill combo then at that moment everyone can see that and then they can start to make changes and adapt. If a 2D difference effects a game, it does not make itself known to us. It's a completely seperate problem than anything you've likened it to in the past.


Honestly, I don't think I should have to study and quantify every concern I have with this game. I don't think that's fair of you. I'm already discussing and studying a handful of complicated topics, both on and off the boards, and they're already eating into more than a fair amount of my free time.

Just because I'm the one voicing an opinion that many people share, shouldn't mean the burden of solving every problem should fall to me. If it turns out that no other regions are concerned about the changes on 2D, that's fine too, but just fairly certain it can't just be Ottawa that doesn't want to lose stocks to arbitrarily nerfed dodges and not know it.

The reason to keep Pokémon Stadium 2 legal even if no one is using it is because it's not hurting anyone by being there and it's not a ban worthy stage. Banning it because no one is using it is like saying we should ban Zelda because no one mains her. If someone comes along that wants to play Zelda, we would reconsider.

Also the reason making that list would fall on you would be that no one else seems concerned about the 2D effect and think that Duck Hunt should still be a legal stage. You are the ones that are concerned with it, so why should we have to study and quantify every concern you have with the game. Sure maybe we can help and work together, but if you want something done right do it yourself.

Edit:

I think you worded this a lot better than I did. Part of knowing a character is being able to memorize all of their attributes and just sort of feel the character. If a stage messes with that then although I don't think it should be outright banned, I do feel that someone can argue that this is a problem without being outright "wrong."

If 2D Omegas and Duck Hunt are all legal, does that mean that you would only feel comfortable using Dedede if you banned both FD(+omegas) and Duck Hunt? Also, are you proposing that banning Duck Hunt during Picks and Bans should also ban 2D omegas? That's an idea that could work, but I'm not sure of it's practicality.

I do agree that the changes do not marginalize skill, so I certainly respect the opinion that it should stay in for that reason. However, I do hold the opinion that a stage allowing a skillful exchange between players doesn't necessitate that we include it in the stage list. I understand this isn't the popular opinion, but competitive Smash won't die out if only have 11 legal stages.


Soooo on a similar topic... Why isn't anyone arguing for Kalos Pokemon League to be a legal stage? I've played a 95 stock match on it previously and all the hazards are extremely predictable and only kill at very high precents. It's certainly not a degenerate stage and a skill-based match can certainly be played there. You can use the hazards to wrack up percents on your opponents (but not kill them early), and it's really a very enjoyable framework. Has no one really mentioned it before, or is there there an issue with the stage I'm not aware of?

The reason no one is arguing for Kalos is because we are 10x more concerned with getting Skyloft and Wuhu Island legal.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

I think you worded this a lot better than I did. Part of knowing a character is being able to memorize all of their attributes and just sort of feel the character. If a stage messes with that then although I don't think it should be outright banned, I do feel that someone can argue that this is a problem without being outright "wrong."

If 2D Omegas and Duck Hunt are all legal, does that mean that you would only feel comfortable using Dedede if you banned both FD(+omegas) and Duck Hunt? Also, are you proposing that banning Duck Hunt during Picks and Bans should also ban 2D omegas? That's an idea that could work, but I'm not sure of it's practicality.

I do agree that the changes do not marginalize skill, so I certainly respect the opinion that it should stay in for that reason. However, I do hold the opinion that a stage allowing a skillful exchange between players doesn't necessitate that we include it in the stage list. I understand this isn't the popular opinion, but competitive Smash won't die out if only have 11 legal stages.


Soooo on a similar topic... Why isn't anyone arguing for Kalos Pokemon League to be a legal stage? I've played a 95 stock match on it previously and all the hazards are extremely predictable and only kill at very high precents. It's certainly not a degenerate stage and a skill-based match can certainly be played there. You can use the hazards to wrack up percents on your opponents (but not kill them early), and it's really a very enjoyable framework. Has no one really mentioned it before, or is there there an issue with the stage I'm not aware of?

For Kalos, it's mainly that the legendaries show up at random, and can heavily centralize play during their appearances (Ho-Oh's pillars can halt play if positioning is bad, Manaphy eliminates center plat, and Registeel stomps Player ass indiscriminately, Rayquaza is actually pretty good), plus above mentioned Metal gunk, plus the idea it's basically Pokemon Stadium 3, which in all fairness, it is. Which in my opinion is awesome, but if you have to fight for Wuhu and Skyloft, well, Kalos might as well be nonexsistant

 

[Krysco]

I think you worded this a lot better than I did. Part of knowing a character is being able to memorize all of their attributes and just sort of feel the character. If a stage messes with that then although I don't think it should be outright banned, I do feel that someone can argue that this is a problem without being outright "wrong."

If 2D Omegas and Duck Hunt are all legal, does that mean that you would only feel comfortable using Dedede if you banned both FD(+omegas) and Duck Hunt? Also, are you proposing that banning Duck Hunt during Picks and Bans should also ban 2D omegas? That's an idea that could work, but I'm not sure of it's practicality.

I do agree that the changes do not marginalize skill, so I certainly respect the opinion that it should stay in for that reason. However, I do hold the opinion that a stage allowing a skillful exchange between players doesn't necessitate that we include it in the stage list. I understand this isn't the popular opinion, but competitive Smash won't die out if only have 11 legal stages.


Soooo on a similar topic... Why isn't anyone arguing for Kalos Pokemon League to be a legal stage? I've played a 95 stock match on it previously and all the hazards are extremely predictable and only kill at very high precents. It's certainly not a degenerate stage and a skill-based match can certainly be played there. You can use the hazards to wrack up percents on your opponents (but not kill them early), and it's really a very enjoyable framework. Has no one really mentioned it before, or is there there an issue with the stage I'm not aware of?

Honestly I never even thought about the idea of banning Duck Hunt = banning 2D Omegas. I guess it would depend on the general reasons one would ban Duck Hunt. Banning Lylat and Omega Lylat are generally for the same reason of ledge issues and banning FD and other Omegas is generally because lack of platforms. I would imagine most people ban Duck Hunt due to its size and possibly tree camping, not so much the 2D factor unless the banner is a D3 or whoever the other character is that has a nerfed spot dodge or if they are fighting a Greninja (and aside from the buffed fsmash I don't even know if Duck Hunt is a good stage for Greninja). I could see it happening though if enough people agree with it or if enough people are that against the 2D gimmick. I myself wouldn't mind such a rule but considering how minor many people consider it and how people are already trying to get ban Lylat = ban Omega Lylat to be a thing I don't know if it will ever happen. I doubt the community as a whole wants too many complicated rules like this.

As for Kalos, before I voice my opinion can I just point out the irony that PS2 changing stats is okay to some people but Kalos turning characters to metal isn't? I get that Kalos' metal doesn't immediately affect everyone but it can and the only PS2 gimmick that always affects everyone is the Flying portion (Ice can be avoided by jumping or being on the edges and Electric has areas that aren't a conveyor belt). As for my actual opinion on Kalos, I'm fine with it, Ho-oh's portion is kinda dumb since it basically screams "FREE DAMAGE" for anyone with a projectile but otherwise I'm fine. Granted I haven't done enough matches on it to see Registeel be a pain or Rayquaza and I actually find the non-legendary Water portion more irritating than the Legendary one since it tries to send you right off the side while the legendary one sends you to a pit with grabbable ledges. Then again, I'm probably a poor person to ask an opinion of since I'm fine with Norfair when most aren't. I also agree with the issue that while Kalos may have a chance of being legal it is much more important to make the likes of Skyloft and Wuhu legal first so for now Kalos is looked at as a lesser priority.

tl;dr The banning Duck Hunt = banning 2D Omegas could potentially be a useful rule although may not ever see a chance to exist and Kalos has an arguable chance of being legal but is considered not as worth fighting for as Skyloft/Wuhu and possibly other stages like Orbital Gate Assault.

 

[ShneeOscar]

Honestly I never even thought about the idea of banning Duck Hunt = banning 2D Omegas. I guess it would depend on the general reasons one would ban Duck Hunt. Banning Lylat and Omega Lylat are generally for the same reason of ledge issues and banning FD and other Omegas is generally because lack of platforms. I would imagine most people ban Duck Hunt due to its size and possibly tree camping, not so much the 2D factor unless the banner is a D3 or whoever the other character is that has a nerfed spot dodge or if they are fighting a Greninja (and aside from the buffed fsmash I don't even know if Duck Hunt is a good stage for Greninja). I could see it happening though if enough people agree with it or if enough people are that against the 2D gimmick. I myself wouldn't mind such a rule but considering how minor many people consider it and how people are already trying to get ban Lylat = ban Omega Lylat to be a thing I don't know if it will ever happen. I doubt the community as a whole wants too many complicated rules like this.

As for Kalos, before I voice my opinion can I just point out the irony that PS2 changing stats is okay to some people but Kalos turning characters to metal isn't? I get that Kalos' metal doesn't immediately affect everyone but it can and the only PS2 gimmick that always affects everyone is the Flying portion (Ice can be avoided by jumping or being on the edges and Electric has areas that aren't a conveyor belt). As for my actual opinion on Kalos, I'm fine with it, Ho-oh's portion is kinda dumb since it basically screams "FREE DAMAGE" for anyone with a projectile but otherwise I'm fine. Granted I haven't done enough matches on it to see Registeel be a pain or Rayquaza and I actually find the non-legendary Water portion more irritating than the Legendary one since it tries to send you right off the side while the legendary one sends you to a pit with grabbable ledges. Then again, I'm probably a poor person to ask an opinion of since I'm fine with Norfair when most aren't. I also agree with the issue that while Kalos may have a chance of being legal it is much more important to make the likes of Skyloft and Wuhu legal first so for now Kalos is looked at as a lesser priority.

tl;dr The banning Duck Hunt = banning 2D Omegas could potentially be a useful rule although may not ever see a chance to exist and Kalos has an arguable chance of being legal but is considered not as worth fighting for as Skyloft/Wuhu and possibly other stages like Orbital Gate Assault.

The problem with the metal is that it is a an extremely overpowered state. Floating? Everyone's doing it so there is no unfair advantage. Being pushed towards the edge of the stage? Not really a stat change, and standing still on it won't kill you. It's really part of the stage. Slippery floor? Annoying, yes, unfair, no.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

The problem with the metal is that it is a an extremely overpowered state. Floating? Everyone's doing it so there is no unfair advantage. Being pushed towards the edge of the stage? Not really a stat change, and standing still on it won't kill you. It's really part of the stage. Slippery floor? Annoying, yes, unfair, no.

I tend to think the metal floor gives an reward for stage control. The player in the center gets to control the pit, and choose whether or not to use it themselves

Metal does have it's drawbacks, due to increased weight

 

[Krysco]

The problem with the metal is that it is a an extremely overpowered state. Floating? Everyone's doing it so there is no unfair advantage. Being pushed towards the edge of the stage? Not really a stat change, and standing still on it won't kill you. It's really part of the stage. Slippery floor? Annoying, yes, unfair, no.

Fair enough point although the effect is only temporary, both players can have it and the swords make for decent camping if such a thing is required. Added weight and added power are admittedly a powerful combination though with the only(?) downfall being increased fall speed and therefore less recovery. Also quite unfair for those with multiple jumps since only the grounded jump actually raises you unless that was fixed from Brawl...my lack of experience on the stage is showing :x

Regardless, I'm fine with the stage including the metal. Biggest flaw I see to the stage is Ho-oh.

 

[ShneeOscar]

There is also the problem of stage hazards and temporary walkoffs

 

[Krysco]

There is also the problem of stage hazards and temporary walkoffs

Temporary walkoffs aren't an issue as they are temporary. Can't camp them without losing stage control and being in a bad position when they leave...and in this case the temporary walkoff is a horrible idea since water tries to kill you.

Hazards are debatable. There are quite a few (fire pillars, with the ones off stage being more deadly than the ones on stage, water rushing you to your death, dragon statue, Rayquaza, Registeel stomp, swords) and their predictability and ease of dodging are different from player to player. They also ko at varying percents depending on where they hit the player and the players percent. I could easily see the argument of the stage being too disruptive and players having to 'fight the stage' rather than themselves and I'd perfectly understand that.

As I stated before I'm fine with Kalos and Norfair so I guess the hazards just aren't too disruptive to me but I could easily be in the minority.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

The reason to keep Pokémon Stadium 2 legal even if no one is using it is because it's not hurting anyone by being there and it's not a ban worthy stage. Banning it because no one is using it is like saying we should ban Zelda because no one mains her. If someone comes along that wants to play Zelda, we would reconsider.

Also the reason making that list would fall on you would be that no one else seems concerned about the 2D effect and think that Duck Hunt should still be a legal stage. You are the ones that are concerned with it, so why should we have to study and quantify every concern you have with the game. Sure maybe we can help and work together, but if you want something done right do it yourself.

Edit:


The reason no one is arguing for Kalos is because we are 10x more concerned with getting Skyloft and Wuhu Island legal.

I understand that banning a stage from play because no one is using it is dumb, but what is your solution to my region's problem? We have an even number of stages, all a subset of the ones everyone is arguing must be legal. Do we keep Pokemon Stadium 2 in and sacrifice the ability to strike from the full stage list? If not, what stage should we ban instead?

To be a bit more practical about the 2D discussion, I don't own a Wii U and I can't read frame data by myself. I'm not claiming that you should do the work for me, I'm clearly asking someone else who thinks their might be an issue to look into it if they're able. If literally no one else cares but me then there's no issue right? If everyone is content to be playing on Duck Hunt in the dark of it's effects, then you can elect to do so. But, who knows, I might end up looking into this one anyways by employing the help of @Linkshot

tl;dr The banning Duck Hunt = banning 2D Omegas could potentially be a useful rule although may not ever see a chance to exist and Kalos has an arguable chance of being legal but is considered not as worth fighting for as Skyloft/Wuhu and possibly other stages like Orbital Gate Assault.

Yes, though it's an option if 2D changes prove substantial, it's likely going to be more trouble than it's worth.


On the general topic of Kalos as a whole, I have to say I'm extremely surprised that people have an issue at all with the metal pool, when changes in physics and attributes was being so heavily defended earlier. As opposed to the windy effect in PS2 Metal can't be lead into a guaranteed kill. Also if you're on a fresh stock, jumping in the pool makes you easier to combo (a downside) while harder to kill at high percents (an upside), so the choice of jumping in is meaningful. Plus if you fight well and keep hitting your opponent, you will knock them out of the transformation early. I really feel if there are issues with the stage, it's the more extreme effects that the legendaries can throw out (which are likely too big of an issue for anyone to want to seriously legalize it)

Though I understand taking priorities into consideration, I'm not entirely sure why there's a limit to how many stages we can lobby for. Based on the criteria mentioned earlier, a stage is either completely viable or completely non-viable. It seems weird to make statements like "Stage B creates sort of leads to degenerate gameplay." So I don't know, it just seems that if we don't feel Kalos is a fair stage to include, it shouldn't be because there are "more fair" stages to include first. If we ever end up with more than 13 usable stages, each TO and Region can choose 13 from that list.

 

[Krysco]

Though I understand taking priorities into consideration, I'm not entirely sure why there's a limit to how many stages we can lobby for. Based on the criteria mentioned earlier, a stage is either completely viable or completely non-viable. It seems weird to make statements like "Stage B creates sort of leads to degenerate gameplay." So I don't know, it just seems that if we don't feel Kalos is a fair stage to include, it shouldn't be because there are "more fair" stages to include first. If we ever end up with more than 13 usable stages, each TO and Region can choose 13 from that list.

Stages aren't necessarily completely viable or completely non-viable. Many stages are argued whether they are viable or not: Kalos, OGA, Luigi's Mansion for two games and I believe Rainbow Cruise was the same. Some people are for them and say they are viable while others say the opposite and when the number of voices is nearly 50/50 it's hard to say.

If we are to increase the amount of legal stages we have a better chance if we do so in baby steps. Saying 'make Skyloft and Wuhu legal' is a much smaller and more acceptable request than 'make OGA, Luigi's Mansion, Kalos, Wuhu, Skyloft and Norfair legal...and Great Cave Offensive." Also if our request involves a smaller amount of stages then the focus is more concentrated. A discussion on the legality of Wuhu and Skyloft will be much more focused than one on a larger amount of stages since there are fewer topics altogether, no unrelated information gets mushed together.

 

[Piford]

I understand that banning a stage from play because no one is using it is dumb, but what is your solution to my region's problem? We have an even number of stages, all a subset of the ones everyone is arguing must be legal. Do we keep Pokemon Stadium 2 in and sacrifice the ability to strike from the full stage list? If not, what stage should we ban instead?

To be a bit more practical about the 2D discussion, I don't own a Wii U and I can't read frame data by myself. I'm not claiming that you should do the work for me, I'm clearly asking someone else who thinks their might be an issue to look into it if they're able. If literally no one else cares but me then there's no issue right? If everyone is content to be playing on Duck Hunt in the dark of it's effects, then you can elect to do so. But, who knows, I might end up looking into this one anyways by employing the help of @Linkshot

You said you have 12 stages, but which stage was the 13th? Was it actually Duck Hunt because of the 2D thing?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I tend to think the metal floor gives an reward for stage control. The player in the center gets to control the pit, and choose whether or not to use it themselves

Metal does have it's drawbacks, due to increased weight

While I agree with that, it's not the only reason it got the ban (fire chamber, water chamber and Rayquaza are notable examples)

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

You said you have 12 stages, but which stage was the 13th? Was it actually Duck Hunt because of the 2D thing?

Hah, yeah. It's not decided yet but there's a lot of discussion over banning Duck Hunt in my region. Surprisingly, I'm not the only one who feels unknown changes in gameplay are a problem. Honestly, I wasn't even the first person in Ottawa to suggest a ban on the stage. A lot of notable people, including our TO's don't feel it wise to use it as it stands. We can put it back in if we confirm a very limited amount of changes.

Despite the very purist views on legal/banned stages that some members of this discussion appear to have, there exist other views on the subject, and those can be legitimate as well.

While I agree with that, it's not the only reason it got the ban (fire chamber, water chamber and Rayquaza are notable examples)

Yes, I certainly agree with you. More than anything I am feeling surprised towards some of the inconsistency of arguments being made in this thread and my dissatisfaction regarding that.

 

[WritersBlah]

If we are to increase the amount of legal stages we have a better chance if we do so in baby steps. Saying 'make Skyloft and Wuhu legal' is a much smaller and more acceptable request than 'make OGA, Luigi's Mansion, Kalos, Wuhu, Skyloft and Norfair legal...and Great Cave Offensive."

Lol. I find this post hilarious because at a local tournament I attended recently, I got dropped into loser's bracket and fought a dude who sounded like he really didn't give a crap about where we fought as long as we got to fight. I offhandedly suggested Great Cave Offensive, and he actually went along with it. That was such a lulzy match. (If you're curious, I won. Going through single player event matches really paid off in the end.) Definitely wouldn't argue for its legality anytime soon, but it's stuff like that that makes me love Smash sometimes. Out of curiosity, (I dunno if I should make a separate thread for this or not,) but how many of you have ever legitimately used gentleman's rule in a tournament?

 

[Pazx]

I always try to gentleman to PS2, especially hazard-less PS2 in doubles. Good stage.

I am super opposed to arbitrary lines being drawn in most cases, however I think we do need an arbitrary line to be drawn between stages like Wuhu, Skyloft and PS2 and stages like Kalos, OGA (which in my opinion is undoubtedly the worst stage in the game), some other borderline-legal stages.