Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[Piford]

As of now unseperated. I'm not sure how I feel about it, but people thought there was a significant enough difference in the stages to warrant the split. I managed to keep around Rainbow Road though which I didn't expect to getr to so I'm taking the compromise.



It doesn't kinda. It's not entirely fair, but some of the other TOs actually tried a tournament with it and didn't get complaints, so we thought it couldn't hurt to keep trying.

Did you try making Tomodachi Life a starter too. IIRC, it had a little of 1/4 people say it should be a starter, which was more than any other stage.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Optionally you could get rid of the Starter/CP division. It is an arbitrary differentiation that does not help diversity.

 

[mimgrim]

Optionally you could get rid of the Starter/CP division. It is an arbitrary differentiation that does not help diversity.

This this this this this this.

Starter/CP system just defeats the purpose of what game 1 is suppose to be like.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Optionally you could get rid of the Starter/CP division. It is an arbitrary differentiation that does not help diversity.

Trust me, I know that full stagelist striking "FLoSSing" is the better route. I also know people already are going to argue like mad over most of the stages. This isn't a what is actually better question, it's convincing folks to get rid of something they've done for years and refuse to take any evidence to the contrary is wrong or broken. No one I have discussed this with in the general populace accepts giving up starter/counterpick systems and it is to a point were I would hurt tournament attendance to just make stages legal or banned.

I know it sucks, but it's going to take a huge community shift before I can consider running this in a community that I have to beg and fight with to even allow a single stage with a hazard to be legal. How can I even remotely tackle this?

If you could write up an argument that could convince tons of TOs and users to adopt this I can try to put it up and see what people think, but I'm not optomistic.

In the end though the largest tournaments will decide the ruleset, and they have the oldest TOs who aren't going to change. IT sucks, but Alex Strife and the Apex team have way more sway then we ever could imagine. Even if you got every other event person using only legal/banned stagelists, all it takes is for that ONE event to not do this and it doesn't matter. The best it seems I can do at the moment is at least try to keep as many stages legal as possible to prove they don't have issues, and even that will probably mean squat anyways, since when in the history of smash have large TOs ever listened to sound reasoning to keep stages legal? Anyone who discussed stages in Brawl should feel that one painfully well.

It would take a giant community shift, maybe even an entirely new major circuit to get people to even consider this as a standard. I'd even run one if there were enough TOs, it would be nice to have what is actually right be used for once. But how am I supposed to sway this many folks when all I am is a TO on the web, change years of their thinking?

 

[Terotrous]

Honestly, I don't see much reason to rock the boat. It's not like there's any really fantastic stages that are hampered by the existence of a minor hazard, most of the stages that do have hazards are merely "okay", and their hazards are pretty disruptive. For example, even without the Flying Man, Magicant would still be kind of janky with all its weird moving objects and barriers. Is it worth fighting over this stage? Not really.


I think we just have to accept that the stagelist on the 3DS version isn't great and the stagelist is probably going to be like 6-7 stages and that's it. The Wii U stagelist looks way, way better, if for no reason other than the fact that we have Smashville back.

 

[Doval]

For example, even without the Flying Man, Magicant would still be kind of janky with all its weird moving objects and barriers. Is it worth fighting over this stage? Not really.

That seems like a dangerous line of thought. You need good reasons to ban something, not good reasons to allow it; the preference should always be to impose as few outside rules on the game as possible. It's especially dangerous to think like that so early in the meta. Maybe the hypothetical no-hazards Magicant benefits some character in non-obvious ways. Maybe the subtle differences between, say, Lumiose City and Rainbow Road are actually significant in some matchups. Do we really want to make changes to the game on the basis of a something "not being worth fighting over?"

 

[Terotrous]

That seems like a dangerous line of thought. You need good reasons to ban something

We have an extremely good reason to ban it - the flying man is extremely disruptive, he gives strong pressure and KO power for zero commitment to whomever touches him first, making this stage almost totally reliant on camping the right side of the stage.

In the absence of some equally compelling reason to want to play this stage there's no point even considering it due to that hazard.


This is also true of most of the stages people talk about. People keep making the argument "well, without the hazard it could be an okayish stage", but there's no way to get rid of the hazards and we have enough okayish stages already.

 

[Doval]

We have an extremely good reason to ban it - the flying man is extremely disruptive, he gives strong pressure and KO power for zero commitment to whomever touches him first, making this stage almost totally reliant on camping the right side of the stage.

In the absence of some equally compelling reason to want to play this stage there's no point even considering it due to that hazard.


This is also true of most of the stages people talk about. People keep making the argument "well, without the hazard it could be an okayish stage", but there's no way to get rid of the hazards and we have enough okayish stages already.

I don't disagree about Flying Man, I'm just voicing my concerns about what criteria should be used to justify a ban. For instance, I wouldn't agree with the exclusion of some stage purely on the basis that it's just an okayish stage and there are "enough" okayish stage. I think an acceptable reason is that it's redundant, but I think the bar or redundancy needs to be placed high.

This isn't aimed at you in particular or anything, it's just that there seems to be two camps in this thread - those who require compelling reasons to include a stage and those who require compelling reasons to ban it. I think it's something that needs to be hashed out. If we can't all agree on the metrics by which stage lists should be judged, how can we discuss stages?

 

[Terotrous]

I don't disagree about Flying Man, I'm just voicing my concerns about what criteria should be used to justify a ban. For instance, I wouldn't agree with the exclusion of some stage purely on the basis that it's just an okayish stage and there are "enough" okayish stage. I think an acceptable reason is that it's redundant, but I think the bar or redundancy needs to be placed high.

This isn't aimed at you in particular or anything, it's just that there seems to be two camps in this thread - those who require compelling reasons to include a stage and those who require compelling reasons to ban it. I think it's something that needs to be hashed out. If we can't all agree on the metrics by which stage lists should be judged, how can we discuss stages?

I just think a compelling reason is needed to include a stage if a compelling reason not to include it exists. For example, Rainbow Road has the cars, which forces some characters to place themselves in a disadvantageous position to avoid taking damage. That's a bad trait. What is the good trait that can potentially override this?


Like I've said before, I really think this is the stagelist:

FD / Omega
Battlefield
Yoshis
Prism Tower
Tomodachi
Arena Ferox

That's 6 or 7 stages depending on how we count the Omega stage, which is fine. You can have DSR on a stagelist of that size, even in a best of 5. And of course, you're welcome to play Corneria / Brinstar / Mute City / whatever else in funsies. Some people seem to treat the competitive standard list as the list of stages they can personally play. I've always allowed Brinstar, Corneria, and a few other stages when playing with my friend.

 

[Doval]

I just think a compelling reason is needed to include a stage if a compelling reason not to include it exists. For example, Rainbow Road has the cars, which forces some characters to place themselves in a disadvantageous position to avoid taking damage. That's a bad trait. What is the good trait that can potentially override this?

I think the Shy Guys have been blown out of proportion. Both players can avoid the Shy Guys in all but one spot; in that one only one player can hide. This worst case scenario only happens if the game decides to stop there AND decides to spawn Shy Guys. The Shy Guys are only lethal at high %s (around 200 with crouch cancel) and only deal 10%, so even if it happens it's not gamebreaking.

I think Tomodachi's weird geometry is more likely to have an effect on the outcome of matches and I don't consider it a bad stage.

 

[Terotrous]

I think the Shy Guys have been blown out of proportion. Both players can avoid the Shy Guys in all but one spot; in that one only one player can hide. This worst case scenario only happens if the game decides to stop there AND decides to spawn Shy Guys. The Shy Guys are only lethal at high %s (around 200 with crouch cancel) and only deal 10%, so even if it happens it's not gamebreaking.

Shy guys actually kill around 140 on most characters, and even if they don't kill, you're losing stage control and the opponent may be able to combo a follow-up hit.

There are also several areas where no safe spot to avoid the shyguys exists. Check out the thread about Rainbow Road in this forum for more details.

 

[Doval]

Shy guys actually kill around 140 on most characters, and even if they don't kill, you're losing stage control and the opponent may be able to combo a follow-up hit.

There are also several areas where no safe spot to avoid the shyguys exists. Check out the thread about Rainbow Road in this forum for more details.

I contributed to that thread recently. The bit about some forms not having safe spots isn't true; the sides of the stage are safe in the start line and even if it weren't, you can hang from the edge. The sides of the moon are also safe, and there's so much room the shy guys can miss you altogether even in the middle, and it's trivial to jump or shield since you can see them well in advance.

 

[Terotrous]

I contributed to that thread recently. The bit about some forms not having safe spots isn't true; the sides of the stage are safe in the start line and even if it weren't, you can hang from the edge. The sides of the moon are also safe, and there's so much room the shy guys can miss you altogether even in the middle, and it's trivial to jump or shield since you can see them well in advance.

Hanging from the edge is a terrible position to be in, though, since in this game you cannot regrab, once your invincibility is gone you have very limited defensive options. It's probably better to just shield the cars if it comes to that.

 

[Doval]

Hanging from the edge is a terrible position to be in, though, since in this game you cannot regrab, once your invincibility is gone you have very limited defensive options. It's probably better to just shield the cars if it comes to that.

I agree. My point was that if you assume the Shy Guys are too difficult to dodge, then the opponent must also take the edge. If you assume it's unsafe to hang from the edge while the Shy Guys pass then you concede they can be dodged reliably since your opponent is doing so to punish you. The same argument applies to standing on the side of the road.

 

[mimgrim]

All I know is that as long as the starer/cp stays there is no reason for me to really learn the CPs. Better to just learn the starters. :L

 

[Terotrous]

I agree. My point was that if you assume the Shy Guys are too difficult to dodge, then the opponent must also take the edge. If you assume it's unsafe to hang from the edge while the Shy Guys pass then you concede they can be dodged reliably since your opponent is doing so to punish you. The same argument applies to standing on the side of the road.

Some characters are naturally better able to dodge the cars, due to aerial mobility / options / etc. For example, Kirby is much better able to avoid them than someone like Bowser.

Some people will of course say, "well, that makes it a great counterpick", but when that mechanic comes into play is both random and there's not a lot of counterplay available if you're a character who has bad options to deal with it, both of which are not really desirable in CP stages.

 

[_Magus_]

Rainbow Road is without a doubt my fav stage in the game. Would love to see it at tourneys if possible.

 

[Doval]

Some characters are naturally better able to dodge the cars, due to aerial mobility / options / etc. For example, Kirby is much better able to avoid them than someone like Bowser.

Some people will of course say, "well, that makes it a great counterpick", but when that mechanic comes into play is both random and there's not a lot of counterplay available if you're a character who has bad options to deal with it, both of which are not really desirable in CP stages.

Every character has a shield, and the Shy Guys spread out when approaching from behind. You'd be hard-pressed to show that more than 2 Shy Guys will pass through your position on average. Your shield can take that no problem. And again, the sides of the road are safe and your opponent can't block both sides. The only way you'd be unable to defend is if the opponent is actively hitting you while a Shy Guy drives through you both. It really isn't a big deal. Like I said, the only time you're really forced to take a hit is on the Landing stop, if you fail to take the safe spot before your opponent, but again, you can survive past 200% off the top platform just by crouching. Taking that 10% really isn't the end of the world.

Seriously, Tomodachi Life gives certain characters a much stronger advantage. Getting down from the roof is difficult when you have ZSS harassing you from below. It's much easier to capitalize on that than the Shy Guys and the roof allows for lower % kills.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Some characters are naturally better able to dodge the cars, due to aerial mobility / options / etc. For example, Kirby is much better able to avoid them than someone like Bowser.

Some people will of course say, "well, that makes it a great counterpick", but when that mechanic comes into play is both random and there's not a lot of counterplay available if you're a character who has bad options to deal with it, both of which are not really desirable in CP stages.

Isn't that what stage striking is for, to eliminate stages that are particularly bad for your character? If Bowser really has such a hard time avoiding Shy Guys (which I find hard to believe given that only one transformation actually makes it difficult, the rest have somewhere you can stand and not get hit), then he can just strike Rainbow Road. Doesn't mean you have to ban it for literally everyone else too.

 

[Terotrous]

Isn't that what stage striking is for, to eliminate stages that are particularly bad for your character?

In theory, but you're still forcing him to waste a strike on a jank stage. He's got enough other stages to strike as it is.

I suspect if this stage was allowed it would just get struck almost every time anyway.

 

[Terotrous]

Every character has a shield, and the Shy Guys spread out when approaching from behind. You'd be hard-pressed to show that more than 2 Shy Guys will pass through your position on average.

On some transformations (namely those where they come from the side), they definitely can.

Also, note that while you can hide from the shy guys, you can't know that they're coming, as their appearance is random. You might have strong stage control until the shy guy warning appears and then suddenly your position becomes terrible. That's not really a good mechanic.

Seriously, Tomodachi Life gives certain characters a much stronger advantage. Getting down from the roof is difficult when you have ZSS harassing you from below. It's much easier to capitalize on that than the Shy Guys and the roof allows for lower % kills.

Perhaps, but at least it's consistent, and you can always strike that stage. We don't want too many stages that you would feel compelled to strike.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

On some transformations (namely those where they come from the side), they definitely can.

Also, note that while you can hide from the shy guys, you can't know that they're coming, as their appearance is random. You might have strong stage control until the shy guy warning appears and then suddenly your position becomes terrible. That's not really a good mechanic.

You get a 3-second warning like so:

The exact direction the Shy Guys come in is fixed for each location, so that's stage knowledge.

 

[LiteralGrill]

It seems our EU Tournament Organizer wants to test out having all stages as legal and striking from for their first event to get feedback. Some of the other subreddit TOs are going to consider it especially if this current tournament goes well. There, how's that for trying?

The stagelist would be:

Arena Ferox
Battlefield
Brinstar
Final Destination (with the clause to ban either floating or walled)
Prism Tower
Rainbow Road
Reset Bomb Forest
Tomodachi Life
Yoshi's Story

We would be making it so the first two stages struck by each player were there stage bans for the match, keeping it simple in the process of striking and allowing a fair number of bans to both players considering the stages.

I'm not sure where my brain was when typing that, I just meant to say each player gets two bans. My brain was scrambled launching the new /r/smashbros tournament schedule.

Either way, thoughts on the stagelist and ban numbers?

 

[mimgrim]

We would be making it so the first two stages struck by each player were there stage bands for the match, keeping it simple in the process of striking and allowing a fair number of bans to both players considering the stages. Thoughts?

Can you expand upon this a bit more?

It sounds like the first 2 stages striked in game one will not be allowed in games 2 and after. What is the reasoning behind that? Shouldn't stages bans be done for round 2 and up and reset for each round? As there are various factors that could get a person to change a stage band from round 2 to round 3, like getting a different character. Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?

 

[Terotrous]

You get a 3-second warning like so

Yes, but it still can definitely shift the stage control. If you were in a strong position (say, far away from your opponent as a character like DHD), then the warning pops up and your opponent is closer to the safe location, you just lost stage control because the RNG said so. Nevermind the fact that you're now forced to battle it out in close quarters for that tiny little safe spot as a character who might never want to approach in such a way.

 

[Piford]

In theory, but you're still forcing him to waste a strike on a jank stage. He's got enough other stages to strike as it is.

I suspect if this stage was allowed it would just get struck almost every time anyway.

What if I play a character who relies a lot on meteor smashes. I probably think Yoshi's Island is "jank" and I'm wasting a stike on it. There's no way people are going to ban that stage even though people can be randomly saved, yet people are going to ban stages like Rainbow Road, even though its much less "hazardess" (as in having your opponent be saved is much worse for you than taking 10% damage.) and gives fair warning. It's even less random in a way since the stops are ordered and the shy guys follow patterns.

 

[Terotrous]

What if I play a character who relies a lot on meteor smashes. I probably think Yoshi's Island is "jank" and I'm wasting a stike on it.

Don't look at me, I hate that stage too.

In general, it seems like people are a bit more tolerant of hazards that randomly save you than randomly kill you, probably because it's harder to exploit the former, but if you want to argue that Shy Guys and Crazy Uncle Randy are disruptive you wouldn't be the first one.

 

[Doval]

Yes, but it still can definitely shift the stage control. If you were in a strong position (say, far away from your opponent as a character like DHD), then the warning pops up and your opponent is closer to the safe location, you just lost stage control because the RNG said so. Nevermind the fact that you're now forced to battle it out in close quarters for that tiny little safe spot as a character who might never want to approach in such a way.

You don't even need the Shy Guys for that. You can lose the dominant position for the simple reason that the stage decided to stop instead of skip a location. That's not a very compelling reason to ban it. Maybe someone wants to counterpick it precisely for that reason.

 

[Terotrous]

You don't even need the Shy Guys for that. You can lose the dominant position for the simple reason that the stage decided to stop instead of skip a location. That's not a very compelling reason to ban it. Maybe someone wants to counterpick it precisely for that reason.

Indeed, that's another benefit to Prism Tower over Rainbow Road, Prism Tower always visits every location.

In general, there's just a lot of potentially disruptive randomness going on on Rainbow Road, which is usually a bad sign for competitive play. It is definitely a little better than Mute City, but I still think it's going to be banned for the same reasons.

 

[Piford]

Indeed, that's another benefit to Prism Tower over Rainbow Road, Prism Tower always visits every location.

In general, there's just a lot of potentially disruptive randomness going on on Rainbow Road, which is usually a bad sign for competitive play. It is definitely a little better than Mute City, but I still think it's going to be banned for the same reasons.

Because Fox and Falco always loose to Peach on it?

 

[Terotrous]

Because Fox and Falco always loose to Peach on it?

Either that or the "oh, time to stop the match for 20 seconds, the cars are coming" aspect of it.

That stupid insta-kill wall was a pain too.

 

[Doval]

Indeed, that's another benefit to Prism Tower over Rainbow Road, Prism Tower always visits every location.

In general, there's just a lot of potentially disruptive randomness going on on Rainbow Road, which is usually a bad sign for competitive play. It is definitely a little better than Mute City, but I still think it's going to be banned for the same reasons.

You can't fault RR for taking away a dominant stage position because of a transition and then turn around and pretend that's not an issue in Lumiose. Lumiose can take your positioning " because the timer said so".

Neither stage is so disruptive that the influence it can exert on the outcome of the match outweighs player skill and character matchups significantly. The fact that they have multiple layouts is actually a plus because fixed geometry can favor one character all throughout the match, e.g. Ganon's Story.

 

[Terotrous]

You can't fault RR for taking away a dominant stage position because of a transition and then turn around and pretend that's not an issue in Lumiose. Lumiose can take your positioning " because the timer said so".

It's pretty significant that it's not random on Lumiose, so you can plan for it and find a good time to transition to another portion of the stage before the next transition happens.

You can't plan for it on RR because you don't know when the cars are coming, or even what stop you're going to.

 

[Piford]

Either that or the "oh, time to stop the match for 20 seconds, the cars are coming" aspect of it.

That stupid insta-kill wall was a pain too.

The official reason according to the SSBWiki is actually no grabbable ledges. Rainbow Road has those.

 

[Terotrous]

The official reason according to the SSBWiki is actually no grabbable ledges. Rainbow Road has those.

I'm pretty sure there are transitions where some of the ledges are not grabbable. This would also note bode well for Mute City, which also has no grabbable ledges. Might also be a problem for Brinstar.

And clearly the cars were also a major factor.

 

[Piford]

I'm pretty sure there are transitions where some of the ledges are not grabbable. This would also note bode well for Mute City, which also has no grabbable ledges. Might also be a problem for Brinstar.

And clearly the cars were also a major factor.

The only transitions that don't have grabbable ledges are the ones with no ledges at all. Brinstar has grabbable ledges

 

[Doval]

It's pretty significant that it's not random on Lumiose, so you can plan for it and find a good time to transition to another portion of the stage before the next transition happens.

You can't plan for it on RR because you don't know when the cars are coming, or even what stop you're going to.

First, you CAN plan for it by definition, because you know it's a possibility. Second, the random event in RR is skipping stops, which would only *prolong* your dominant position every time it occurs. It's not like to stage stops at arbitrary and wildly varying intervals, which would be impossible to plan around. Third, if you're in a dominant position at the time the Shy Guys arrive, you exert the most control on choice of safe zone.

 

[Tybis]

The official reason according to the SSBWiki is actually no grabbable ledges. Rainbow Road has those.

I'm entirely lost as to which F-Zero stage you guys are talking about, from which game.

 

[Piford]

I'm entirely lost as to which F-Zero stage you guys are talking about, from which game.

Mute City Melee, as it draws a lot of similarities to Rainbow Road.

 

[Terotrous]

Brinstar has grabbable ledges

Not when the lava rises.

First, you CAN plan for it by definition, because you know it's a possibility.

It doesn't really work, though, because the cars change the dominant position. If the cars come, the safe spot is the dominant position. If they don't, it may not be. Without knowing whether they're coming or not you don't know which spot you should try to aim for.

Second, the random event in RR is skipping stops, which would only *prolong* your dominant position every time it occurs.

By that same logic, the stage choosing to make a stop disrupts your stage control. Also, the mere fact that some stops can be skipped altogether makes the stage unpredictable. You might CP to this stage because a certain layout gives you advantage, only to have it not ever appear.