Squirtle Squad (General Disc.)

[Burnsy]

But RH-US still looks kinda wonky, and TACUS is relatable to another tech that behaves in a similar fashion the DACUS. I guess I just want a decent shorthand that doesn't confuse the hell out of non squirtle mains.

Well, you're never going to get a decent shorthand for his dozens of other techniques that involve hydroplane.

For example, hydroplane dsmash used to be considered difficult and not many Squirtle players did it, but now that several have been trying out it's use seriously, many of us are regarding it as one of his most useful hydroplane smashes. Since it's such a useful technique, it'd be good to have an easy way for non-mains to know what to call it. But no comparable technique exists for any other character. Additionally, neither "TACDS" (turn around cancelled dsmash) nor "HDS" (hydroplane dsmash) are good shorthand for a non main trying to learn about Squirtle for reasons. There just aren't enough reasons to give it a unique name. Hydroplane dsmash is long to say but it has a history and it gets the job done.

I believe that if you really want to educate newer players of Squirtle and those that don't play him, they will get a more comprehensive understanding of how he can get extra speed for ALL of his attacks by cancelling turnrun with either a jump or a pivot, and that "sliding on the ground = hydroplane" and "moving through the air = sling jump/shellshift jump".

 

[Regralt]

How do you even do a forward hydroplane Fsmash anyways? I use this to do it consistently, but every now and then I'll try to hydroplane Dsmash and accidentally do a forward hydroplane Fsmash. That doesn't even make any sense, since I'm tilting the C-stick in the opposite direction.

 

[PlateProp]

How do you even do a forward hydroplane Fsmash anyways? I use this to do it consistently, but every now and then I'll try to hydroplane Dsmash and accidentally do a forward hydroplane Fsmash. That doesn't even make any sense, since I'm tilting the C-stick in the opposite direction.

I just shellshift and cstick. There's certain spots (marked in the picture) that produce a forward hydro f smash. The best way to get a feel for this is to put your c stick on the down 45s and roll just slightly up

Just note that you pretty much have to hit the spots perfectly or you'll get a normal hydro fsmash, or a hydro dsmash if you went too far down.

 

[Regralt]

I just shellshift and cstick. There's certain spots (marked in the picture) that produce a forward hydro f smash. The best way to get a feel for this is to put your c stick on the down 45s and roll just slightly up

Just note that you pretty much have to hit the spots perfectly or you'll get a normal hydro fsmash, or a hydro dsmash if you went too far down.

Ah ok, thanks. Accidentally doing that has been bugging me for a while.

 

[Daftatt]

After playing for the past couple days, It's becoming clear that squirtle is not a character that does well in netplay. Nearly impossible to properly control. Competitive netplay is definitely not what I hoped it would be, literally every match I've played the opponent was Tink, Link, Mario, Samus etc and just projectile spammed Which I can win it's just not fun to play those matches without the ability to shield well from the netplay lag. Dammit if I'm not going to keep playing squirtlag though.

tldr; netplay johns

 

[Player -0]

After playing for the past couple days, It's becoming clear that squirtle is not a character that does well in netplay. Nearly impossible to properly control. Competitive netplay is definitely not what I hoped it would be, literally every match I've played the opponent was Tink, Link, Mario, Samus etc and just projectile spammed Which I can win it's just not fun to play those matches without the ability to shield well from the netplay lag. Dammit if I'm not going to keep playing squirtlag though.

tldr; netplay johns

Still better than Nintendo WFC. Sometimes I start gouging out my eyes because I can't do things I want to.

 

[Burnsy]

To forward hydroplane usmash, I just control stick standing pivot by tilting the other way before I do the fsmash. Eliminates all doubt and I dont have to mess with perfect cstick angles.

 

[Daftatt]

To forward fsmash I just control stick standing pivot by tilting the other way before I do the fsmash. Eliminates all doubt and I dont have to mess with perfect cstick angles.

yup yup yup. Hydropivot is love, hydropivot is life.

 

[PlateProp]

To forward hydroplane usmash, I just control stick standing pivot by tilting the other way before I do the fsmash. Eliminates all doubt and I dont have to mess with perfect cstick angles.

It's not all that hard honestly, because even if you screw up it will usually end up as a hydro dsmash.
Squirtle is a reactionary character, and at least half of it is reacting to your own screw ups xD

 

[Daftatt]

It's not all that hard honestly, because even if you screw up it will usually end up as a hydro dsmash.
Squirtle is a reactionary character, and at least half of it is reacting to your own screw ups xD

I can't tell you how many times I've been going into shellshift to hydrograb, the opponent reads it and jumps, I then slip up and miss the jump-squat window and instead shellsling into Fair and kill them. They're in awe, and so am I, of course I try not to let on that it wasn't on purpose. They go "Damn, that read", I go "Yeah... Squirtle".

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Hey guys so I will be practicing Squirtle for an upcoming local in GA. Any tips? How have you guys done in tournament so far with Squirtle? Who are the best Squirtles to learn from?

 

[PlateProp]

I can't tell you how many times I've been going into shellshift to hydrograb, the opponent reads it and jumps, I then slip up and miss the jump-squat window and instead shellsling into Fair and kill them. They're in awe, and so am I, of course I try not to let on that it wasn't on purpose. They go "Damn, that read", I go "Yeah... Squirtle".

I find it weird that people have problems with hitting that. The only problem I have with it is not always getting the max distance <_>

 

[coopreme]

I find it weird that people have problems with hitting that. The only problem I have with it is not always getting the max distance <_>

I just kept practicing in training room at slow speeds then increased the speed till i was consistent. Now as soon as his shell changes direction and get that bump of speed i press jump (X) and grab (z) at nearly the same time to get a killer sliding jump cancelled grab...

 

[_Pixel_]

Hey guys so I will be practicing Squirtle for an upcoming local in GA. Any tips? How have you guys done in tournament so far with Squirtle? Who are the best Squirtles to learn from?

If you are going to Smash of Ages I'll sit down with you.

 

[Daftatt]

I find it weird that people have problems with hitting that. The only problem I have with it is not always getting the max distance <_>

I can hit it consistently, it's just sometimes on netplay I don't, and it happens to work out.

 

[coopreme]

Hey guys so I will be practicing Squirtle for an upcoming local in GA. Any tips? How have you guys done in tournament so far with Squirtle? Who are the best Squirtles to learn from?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzYL7T5JXEs

This is some of the most intense squirtle playing i've seen online. alot different than jewchainz

 

[Burnsy]

Not even a minute in "Squirtles Nair has a little bit of super armor"

C'mon now this characters been out for more than a year.

 

[~Dad~]

Not even a minute in "Squirtles Nair has a little bit of super armor"

C'mon now this characters been out for more than a year.

PMBR plz gib super armor on nair it is fair and balanced and good ok thanks

 

[Cloudburst]

That set was an excellent example of a solid player learning to deal with withdraw spam.

 

[PlateProp]

Not even a minute in "Squirtles Nair has a little bit of super armor"

C'mon now this characters been out for more than a year.

5 mins in

"i really like what they did with the hydroplane in this game. It looks really smooth and both characters have it on stage"

Wat

 

[Burnsy]

Yea I don't get it.

There really, really, really needs to be a good blog post about knockback armor that is well written to keep peoples attention.

 

[coopreme]

Squirtle players will eventually need to be able to do tilt inputs very accurately for instant standing pivots to cancel shellshift. If thats a problem you have (going for utilt and getting something else) you should nip that problem in the bud now rather than later. It's not tap jumps' fault you are inputting incorrectly. And it really doesnt take that much to get used to it.

So i spent some few hours trying out squirt with tap jump on and i must say it's just as good as if it's off.... however it makes it waaaaaay easier to TACUS... j/k hydro Usmash.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

If you are going to Smash of Ages I'll sit down with you.

Thank you! I would really appreciate that! Can you add me on fb?: Gerrad Walker. If you play smash in AL then I should pop up right away.

 

[GravyJigster]

I have an easy time doing the reverse-hydroplane usmash/TACUS/Whatever you call it, but I tend to be very unreliable with the normal hydroplane u-smash, mostly because I've never figured out exactly what the inputs are. Is it done like the dsmash, where you pivot, then smash the c-stick at a down 45 degree angle (except upwards)? or are there more shenanigans required?

 

[_Pixel_]

Thank you! I would really appreciate that! Can you add me on fb?: Gerrad Walker. If you play smash in AL then I should pop up right away.

Added.

 

[Burnsy]

I have an easy time doing the reverse-hydroplane usmash/TACUS/Whatever you call it, but I tend to be very unreliable with the normal hydroplane u-smash, mostly because I've never figured out exactly what the inputs are. Is it done like the dsmash, where you pivot, then smash the c-stick at a down 45 degree angle (except upwards)? or are there more shenanigans required?

A normal hydroplane usmash can follow either a jump cancel or a pivot, since it is done during the rebound of shellshift. I think that most people will find that it is easier for them to jump cancel the usmash in this situation (and it will yield the same distance if timed the same as a pivot) but play around with it to find what is comfortable for you.

You can jump cancel into the usmash at any time, so once you start moving in the other direction it's just a matter of timing your jump when you have the most speed, and canceling your jumpsquat with an usmash. So the only inputs required are: Shellshift (control stick behind you while running) -> (pause for shellshift's rebound) -> jump -> immediately upsmash (cancels jumpsquat).

You only have the 4 frames of jumpsquat to get out the usmash so be quick about it.

 

[~Dad~]

Using a brand new controller is really, really hard.


I can't hydropivot fsmash whenever I want anymore.

 

[Burnsy]

So, I did a little bit of frame-by-frame research on some shellshift related stuff recently, and wanted to share my findings here. I know not everyone thinks in frames and won't find this useful, but in the long run, information like this can be very good to have early on.

Shellshift

Starting Shellshift
Intital Dash Animation: 8 frames

• Initial dash ending puts you in "run"
  
• Shellshift can be started at any point during "run"
  • Therefore, earliest you can start shellshift after beginning a dash is frame 9 .

Shellshift Movement data
Forward moving: 1-9
Rebounding: 10-21
Frame of least momentum: 9 and 10
Fastest rebound frame: 14 (?)

Shellshift Attack Data
Hitbox active: 6-12
Jump cancel possible: 1-21 (at any point)
Standing pivot cancel:

• Can be input between frame 13 and 21 (see note #2)
  • Starting your pivot on frame 13 yields the longest pivoted hydroplane.
• There is a 1 frame delay after pivoting before you can act (PM physics delay glitch)
• Frame 15 is the earliest actionable frame via pivot

Some quick but interesting notes...

1. Being able to jump frame the 1st frame after shellshift is active has huge implications for Squirtle's pressure game, and safe poking abilities as well. If Squirtle hits a shield and jumps around frames 9 and 10 he will not move far away from his target and will be in a frame advantage situation only slightly worse than Fox/Wolf/Lucas shine on shield (about -1 or +0 compared to Fox's +2).
2. Inputting frame perfect standing pivots via frame advance is a bit awkward, I'm about 95% certain the data is correct but a part of me still feels Squirtle may be able to pivot before frame 13. I can, however, say with certainty that starting pivot before frame 10 is impossible.
3. (Simple math time, but good to keep in mind): If you are running, it will take 8 frames for you to be able to hit with shellshift. If you aren't running yet, it's going to take double that at 17 total frames before a hitbox is out. Long story short, if they are expecting you to try to hit them with shellshift, it's not very difficult to react to. This emphasizes that while this tech -can- be powerful, it can also be predictable, which underlines the importance for Squirtle to keep moving and keep the opponent guessing.

 

[Daftatt]

So, I did a little bit of frame-by-frame research on some shellshift related stuff recently, and wanted to share my findings here. I know not everyone thinks in frames and won't find this useful, but in the long run, information like this can be very good to have early on.

Shellshift

Starting Shellshift
Intital Dash Animation: 8 frames

• Initial dash ending puts you in "run"
  
• Shellshift can be started at any point during "run"
  • Therefore, earliest you can start shellshift after beginning a dash is frame 9 .

Shellshift Movement data
Forward moving: 1-9
Rebounding: 10-21
Frame of least momentum: 9
Fastest rebound frame: 14 (?)

Shellshift Attack Data
Hitbox active: 6-12
Jump cancel possible: 1-21 (at any point)
Standing pivot cancel:

• Can be input between frame 13 and 21 (see note #2)
  • Starting your pivot on frame 13 yields the longest pivoted hydroplane.
• There is a 1 frame delay after pivoting before you can act (PM physics delay glitch)
• Frame 15 is the earliest actionable frame via pivot

Some quick but interesting notes...

1. Being able to jump frame the 1st frame after shellshift is active has huge implications for Squirtle's pressure game, and safe poking abilities as well. If Squirtle hits a shield and jumps around frames 9 and 10 he will not move far away from his target and will be in a frame advantage situation only slightly worse than Fox/Wolf/Lucas shine on shield (about -1 or +0 compared to Fox's +2).
2. Inputting frame perfect standing pivots via frame advance is a bit awkward, I'm about 95% certain the data is correct but a part of me still feels Squirtle may be able to pivot before frame 13. I can, however, say with certainty that starting pivot before frame 10 is impossible.
3. (Simple math time, but good to keep in mind): If you are running, it will take 8 frames for you to be able to hit with shellshift. If you aren't running yet, it's going to take double that at 17 total frames before a hitbox is out. Long story short, if they are expecting you to try to hit them with shellshift, it's not very difficult to react to. This emphasizes that while this tech -can- be powerful, it can also be predictable, which underlines the importance for Squirtle to keep moving and keep the opponent guessing.

Based Burnsy God, the only man who actually deserves to be listed in the top players for squirtle thread... Shellshift may OR MAY NOT be getting very very VERY slightly altered in animation in a way that does not affect the execution of any advanced techniques come 3.5 (in case this upset your frame data which I have absolutely no idea if it will). But you didn't hear it from me! And it's impossible to link the PMBR to this post because reasons.

Anyhow. Just checking in to make sure that everone is remembering to...

JAB RESET BUBBLE, I REPEAT JAB RESET BUBBLE, IF THEY ARE BEYOND YOUR JAB RANGE USE F-TILT, YOU'RE WELCOME, SPLIT YOUR TOURNAMENT WINNINGS WITH ME NOW.

 

[Player -0]

Squirtle confirmed to have 2 shines confirmed. Confirmed.

 

[Zwarm]

Actually all 4 of his specials are shine
You don't need to recover if you have shine

 

[Daftatt]

Does anybody else watergun as they fall past the ledge to stop an opponent's edgeguard, then immediately waterfall onto the stage? It's been working very consistently for me as a means of recovery, also if I'm on GHZ or Yoshi's Story I can wallcling instead of waterfalling. Watergun is just too good, it literally makes some MUs viable for squirtle.

If you can wallcling, say you're recovering against marth, he is going to hang from ledge or be onstage and camp the edge with an attack, watergun him then fall into wallcling. Almost 100% of the time is the opponent was standing on the edge of the stage and they get gunned down as they were about to throw out an attack they will immediately smash attack to try and save the edgeguard, then just hop up from wallcling and Bair their ending lag.

 

[~Dad~]

Does anybody else watergun as they fall past the ledge to stop an opponent's edgeguard, then immediately waterfall onto the stage? It's been working very consistently for me as a means of recovery, also if I'm on GHZ or Yoshi's Story I can wallcling instead of waterfalling. Watergun is just too good, it literally makes some MUs viable for squirtle.

If you can wallcling, say you're recovering against marth, he is going to hang from ledge or be onstage and camp the edge with an attack, watergun him then fall into wallcling. Almost 100% of the time is the opponent was standing on the edge of the stage and they get gunned down as they were about to throw out an attack they will immediately smash attack to try and save the edgeguard, then just hop up from wallcling and Bair their ending lag.

You bet your shell I do, it's hilarious.

 

[Zwarm]

Hey look guys I played Squirtle.

That ending of game 2 tho

Ignore game 1

Also I realize I could've posted in the video thread but I feel like that thread goes largely unnoticed

 

[Daftatt]

Hey look guys I played Squirtle.

That ending of game 2 tho

Ignore game 1

Also I realize I could've posted in the video thread but I feel like that thread goes largely unnoticed

Damn, not bad zwarm, your squirtle definitely aint amish. Also, SHADES POWER! Lol. I see a lot of followups that you could have got (especially from D-smash) if you had slingjumped at them with an aerial immediately, such as at 9:11. Epic whiffed grab punish to clutch it out though.

I need to practice my squirtle against characters that can zone me out like marth, but for samus, I feel like (besides D-smash) everything she does for zoning just leaves her open to approach by squirtle.

 

[Zwarm]

Amish Squirtle is for squares.

That was actually my first time using Squirtle against Samus, but yeah I noticed that during the game, she really doesn't work out well trying to zone.

 

[JCOnyx]

Marth is pretty bad, but the character I have the most problems with is Roy. Damn near can't do anything to the boy, and if he gets me offstage I don't even try to recover. Can't try to sweetspot the ledge since waterfall hits just above it and he can just counter for the kill, and trying to recovering high is just asking for an UpAir chain...

I've always had a difficult time against Roys, and I've heard from other Squirtles that this matchup is one of our worst. How do you guys handle it?

 

[coopreme]

Marth is pretty bad, but the character I have the most problems with is Roy. Damn near can't do anything to the boy, and if he gets me offstage I don't even try to recover. Can't try to sweetspot the ledge since waterfall hits just above it and he can just counter for the kill, and trying to recovering high is just asking for an UpAir chain...

I've always had a difficult time against Roys, and I've heard from other Squirtles that this matchup is one of our worst. How do you guys handle it?

more bubble

 

[JCOnyx]

Of course you can just bubble him once you get him offstage. I'm talking about the neutral game and being onstage.

The current Roy's I'm practicing against can tech bubble every time and I'm trying to learn how to adjust to their familiarity of the matchup. Bubble seems particularly not as helpful once they learn to tech the trip... I've instead been trying to keep my approaches to hydroshields/hydrograbs and occasionally mixing in a crossup shellsling Bair or Water Gun. It works for the most part but his ability to space me out and get early kills with NeutralB tippers, FSmash sweetspots, and Counter just seem extremely difficult to overcome.

It's probably just me not having a lot of experience against Roy or just in general, but I do want to find a way to deal with Roy eventually.

 

[Daftatt]

Of course you can just bubble him once you get him offstage. I'm talking about the neutral game and being onstage.

The current Roy's I'm practicing against can tech bubble every time and I'm trying to learn how to adjust to their familiarity of the matchup. Bubble seems particularly not as helpful once they learn to tech the trip... I've instead been trying to keep my approaches to hydroshields/hydrograbs and occasionally mixing in a crossup shellsling Bair or Water Gun. It works for the most part but his ability to space me out and get early kills with NeutralB tippers, FSmash sweetspots, and Counter just seem extremely difficult to overcome.

It's probably just me not having a lot of experience against Roy or just in general, but I do want to find a way to deal with Roy eventually.

EDIT: Try using grounded bubble, see if you can make anything work off that.

Yep, a local player named Drodeka plays a damn mean roy. It's really hard to ever pull out a win against him. I get most of my kills through edgehogs (WD to the ledge). As far as neutral, I space hard and watergun, surprise slingjump bubble, and quickshift A LOT because even roy can't just run in without getting grabbed. Roy and Marth are hands down squirtle's worst MUs, that's not even in my own opinion prefaced, I just honestly believe it's the truth.

Squirtle is usually half rush down playtype half punisher playtype. For roy and marth you have to use the punisher tools way wayyyy more than rushdown.

Punisher: Maintaining safe spacing and positioning, then exploiting the endlag(whiffed moves), technical-error (missed techs), poor-spacing, and poor positioning of an opponent to begin combos


Rushdown: Using aggressive movement and close quarters pressuring (such as shield pressure) to force openings in an opponent’s defenses and begin combos