Squirt Data

[cmart]

This Data pertains to 2.5 Squirtle and is now outdated. At some point post 3.0 I will revisit and update this thread. Apologies for the inconvenience till then.

Greetings fellow turtle enthusiasts. cmart, the character lead on Squirtle, here with a little something for you guys. I want to keep somewhat of an open dialogue with the players, but don't really want to participate in matchup or metagame discussions. So what I'm going to do instead is this request thread - you guys ask for various tidbits of data related to Squirtle, and I'll do my best to dig it up and present it here for you. I'm gonna try to stick to data - I don't want to dictate how you guys use it. To start with, I've got a few moves I've already done.
Don't be afraid to ask questions - about just about anything.


Shell Armor

Moves with 4% Damage Armor
- Running Turn around (shell shift)
- Neutral Air
- Withdraw (all forms)

Moves with 12% Damage Armor
- Forward Smash
- Down Smash


Grabs

Standing Grab
Squirtle's standing grab comes out on frame 7 and lasts two frames. It has 22 frames of cooldown (30 total). I've provided a ghost of his neutral stance so you can see just how much he jumps forward and up - it has quite a deceptive range.

Dash Grab.
Comes out on frame 8 and lasts two frames. It has 35 frames of cooldown (44 total). Although he still lunges for this grab, the distance is more in line with what you'd expect out of a dash grab. It does have more disjoint however.

Pivot Grab.
Comes out on frame 9 and lasts two frames. It has 25 frames of cooldown (35 total). Like most pivot grabs, it has more disjoint than his normal standing grab.

Throws

Forward Throw
Release Frame - 14. Cooldown - 18 frames. Total - 32 frames.
Release Angle - 55. Damage - 6. Knockback @40% - 91.32. @100% - 101.91
Notes - A low release point and stats similar to Marth's forward throw.

Back Throw
Release Frame - 16. Cooldown - 25 frames. Total - 41 frames.
Release Angle - 45. Damage - 10. Knockback @40% - 100.05. @100% - 129.45

Up Throw
Release Frame - 9. Cooldown - 29 frames. Total - 38 frames.
Release Angle - 75. Damage - 7. Knockback @40% - 88.83. @100% - 107.6
Notes - Weight Dependent Speed means it's faster the lower the target's weight.

Down Throw
Release Frame - 19. Cooldown - 30 frames. Total (IASA) - 49 frames.
Release Angle - 55. Damage - 14. Knockback @40% - 128.96. @100% - 187.76
Notes - Squirtle's most damaging throw.


Aerials

Forward Air
First Active frame - 5. Hitboxes degrade frame 7, terminate frame 12. Autocancel window - Frame 25. Total - 31 frames
Initial Hitbox - 361 Angle. 13 damage. Knockback @40% - 101.29. @100% - 157.99
Lingering hitbox - 361 Angle. 7 damage. Knockback @40% - 82.61. @100% - 120.41.
Notes - Forward Air has non-reversible knockback, so it always sends forward. It also use the Sakurai angle (not-uncommon).


Down Air

Down Air
First Active frame 9. Loops twice at 9-11 and 13-15. Final hit at 17-19. Autocancel window - frame 36. IASA from frame 39.
Linking Hits - 125 -> 145 angle. 195 angle against grounded targets. 3 damage each.
Final Hit - 100 -> 105 angle. 7 damage. Knockback @40% - 77.61. @100% - 115.41.
Notes - Down air pulls targets behind and above Squirtle, and the last hit pops them above him. It's easier to link if Squirtle is moving backwards or stationary. Against grounded targets, the lower than horizontal angle prevents crouch canceling.


Withdraw

Start up - 6 frames. Manual Cancel Length - 36 frames. Jump Startup length - 7 frames (no hitbox).
All Hitboxes - 35 degree angle, 4 extra shield damage.
Initial Hitbox (1st frame) - 11 damage. Knockback @40% - 99.75. @100% - 146.16.
Slow Hitbox - 9 damage. Knockback @40% - 92.37. @100% - 131.64.
Fast Hitbox - 8 damage. Knockback @40% - 88.86. @100% - 124.56.
Turnaround Hitbox (comes out frame 9) - 6 damage. Knockback @40% - 73.76. @100% - 107.36.
Notes - Withdraw does variable damage based on your traveling speed. You can control this by how quickly you release the control stick when inputing withdraw (although the damage difference is only one percent). If you hit with withdraw during the first active frame, it is slightly more powerful. Also be aware that you have no hitbox during the first seven frames of a jump, and the first eight frames of turning around. Finally, note that the hitbox itself is extremely small and will lose priority clashes with almost all other moves.
On-hit Rebound Notes - The rebound Squirtle goes into upon contact with a hurtbox or shield is 24 frames, and has limited IASA from frame 16. You cannot use a special move out of this IASA window, but must wait out the full 24 frames instead. Squirtle maintains full aerial mobility during this animation.


Aqua Jet

Active Frame 1. Sweetspot Active Frame - 2. Hitbox Degrades frame 8, terminates frame 13. Ledge grab allowed frame 22. Total - 36 frames.
Initial hitbox (water burst) - 50 Angle. 11 Damage. Knockback @40% - 104.75. @100% - 151.16.
Sweetspot (replaces previous) - 70 Angle. 15 damage. Knockback @40% - 131.8. @100% - @210.34.
Lingering hitbox - 60 Angle. 8 damage. Knockback @40% - 71.6. @100% - 113.6.
Notes - The Initial flub hitbox prevents Squirtle from sweetspotting foes to the side or below him. He has to come in from underneath to get the killing blow. Note that he goes into special fall landing lag if he lands during the animation (29 frames).

 

[cmart]

[reserved]

 

[standardtoaster]

hype d

 

[Translucent]

Awwwwww yeeaahhh!!!

So excited for this!

 

[McNinja]

Cmart, did you design/code Squirtle?

 

[cmart]

@ McNinja - I did the majority of it. Other design/coding credits to ds22, Jiang, Magus, and the rest of the PMBR

 

[Translucent]

Yay it's up!

 

[MetalKnuckles]

First off, I just want to thank you for doing this. It's just really cool to provide people with this kind of data to help them out in learning this stuff.

Secondly, there are some things that I would like to know about squirtle if you can show it. One is the hitboxes/range of squirtle's D-smash. Sometimes I feel like I draw people into it when they're away from the water, and then sometimes not. It'd be nice to know the definitive hitboxes so I could plan accordingly. The other thing I'd like to know is something that can just be said not shown: is squirtle's dash grab similar to his standing grab, in that the grab animation pushes him forward a bit before the hitboxes are active?

 

[cmart]

Did dash grab and standing grab. Downsmash will take more time as I'd want an ingame pic or two to show hitbox relative the water gfx and I'm going to be quite busy this weekend. I'll get it up when I can.

 

[tripwire]

Thanks again Cmart. This will help all of us squirtle players.

 

[cmart]

Added dair info and updated withdraw with details on the on-hit rebound.

 

[Wolfy!]

Sweeeeeet, this is mighty helpful. :D

 

[bubbaking]

So I have a question for the mighty cmart:
I remember either you or Vanguard told me that Squirt's tail is invincible for certain attacks. Is his tail invincible all the time or only during certain attacks? If the answer is the latter, then which attacks are those? Thanks a lot for your help!

Edit - Another Q: Does Squirtle retain his 4% armor while 'shellstalling'?

 

[dettadeus]

Two questions before I go to bed:
1. Does Jab1 have enough hitstun / little enough cooldown to true combo into anything but Jab2?
2. Is Grounded Grab Release > Jab Combo still guaranteed (presuming you're frame perfect since there's no buffering)?

 

[cmart]

@ Bubbak - I can say that Squirt's tail has invinc during ftilt, downtilt and bair - I'll put those moves on my to-do list so you can have the frame windows for that (for ftilt and dtilt though, it's safe to say when he's swinging it). As for the shell-stall question I honestly have no idea - I suspect so but would have to confirm.

@ Detta - Interesting questions. I'll look up the frame advantage for both of those and get back to you.

This is roughly the order I plan on tackling the requests:

- Disjointed move data (upsmash, downsmash, bubble)
- Bair, ftilt, dtilt data
- Jab and grab release data (including frame advantage on-hit)

 

[bubbaking]

OK, thanks a lot! I knew about bair, but I was sincerely hoping that ftilt was another one of those moves. I'm lovin' this char more and more...

 

[Sterowent]

Down Air

Down Air
First Active frame 9. Loops twice at 9-11 and 13-15. Final hit at 17-19. Autocancel window - frame 36. IASA from frame 39.
Linking Hits - 125 -> 145 angle. 195 angle against grounded targets. 3 damage each.
Final Hit - 100 -> 105 angle. 7 damage. Knockback @40% - 77.61. @100% - 115.41.
Notes - Down air pulls targets behind and above Squirtle, and the last hit pops them above him. It's easier to link if Squirtle is moving backwards or stationary. Against grounded targets, the lower than horizontal angle prevents crouch canceling.

and everyone said it was worse. WELL THEN

 

[bubbaking]

So I have a request: What exactly is the hitbox data for Squirt's Water Gun? It's clear that there are damaging and non-damaging portions, but which are they? Also, for his aerials, would it be possible for landing lag and L-cancelling lag to be posted? I know L-cancelling lag is half of the regular lag, though.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Tell me the difference in frame data between Brawl Squirtle and PM Squirtle in relation to U-Air, D-Air, and all his tilts.

 

[Translucent]

It shows up there how his dair starts on frame 9 in PM compared to 6 in Brawl. The parts at which it hits is also different, along with the end time being quicker. All of his tilts should be very similar to brawl though.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well, they're not. They're noticeably slower. With the SCD glitches and really long cooldown on U-Air, it feels really difficult to combo efficiently with his best stuff.

 

[bubbaking]

What's SCD? Stage Collision Detection? I honestly don't feel like uair has long cooldown. Rather, the KB it has is neither optimal for comboing nor killing. It seems to be no slower than Falcon's uair, for instance, but Falcon's uair is MUCH better for comboing. For example, a common Squirt combo is WD > uair because it scoops the opponent up after they hit the ground (or almost hit the ground) from the WD. However, the uair is often the end (or almost the end) of the combo at any % higher than low-mid %'s. If it was a 'Falcon-esque' move, it would still scoop the opponent up and it would also combo into a plethora of things (fair, RAR bair and Bubble, to name a few). I'm still happy with the way Squirtle is, but little things like that keep him from being Top Tier, IMO. Uair has too much (or too little?) KB, utilt is too awkward with its hitbox placement, WD (and SS?) has too little priority, nair has, like, no range at all, jab doesn't really lead into anything (I think the actual jab combo can be blocked before it reaches jab 3, even if jab 1 hit), WG has uber weird hitboxes (when does it hit and when does it just push? ) and Aqua Jet has this weird glitch where, if you perform it at a certain point soon after entering aerial WD, Squirtle hurtles (lolz, that rhymes ) downwards instead of popping up like he's supposed to.

Personally, I feel that Squirtle is High Tier because he has a lot of individual really nice traits that are incredible, even alone, but they lack 'synergy' in the character as a whole. He's great, and I love him, but he doesn't 'flow' as properly as he could.....IMO.

 

[G13_Flux]

in all honesty squirtle to me is like an odd version of fox. he is a good hit and run character and hes good at punishing openings. hes got great mobility, is tough to catch because of that and being a small target. he also doesnt have a lot of combos, like you were talking about bubbaking, and fox doesnt really either, at least on the people he cannot waveshine. they both rely on taking advantage of openings and shutting down your opponents options from single hits (not combos) and their great mobility allows them to continue to do so. i agree with you that squirtle is definitely high tier material, but he definitely lacks reliable ways to transition into kills because of his lack of an effective combo game. fox at least still has his uthow uair combo, and can set up the tech chases to get it with his shine if they fall down from it. squirtle has some good shellshift set ups, but those are strictly gorunded, and i feel that getting kills in the air are pretty hard for him unless hes edge guarding.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Squirtle has great combos. They might not be extensive and take 30 seconds, but he is definitely not a single hit character.

 

[G13_Flux]

yeah but they are not usually more than like 2 or 3 hits. they are effective for what squirtle does, but he is still not the character that is going to take a single opening and zero to death with it. not that he cant with proper tech chases and reads, but in general squirtles tend to use their quick speed, mobility, and good aerial hitboxes to keep their opponent off balance, while weaving in between retreating and approaching maneuvers. he can shellshift into short combos nd gets some from grabs and withdraw as well, but when compared with a large percentage of the case, his combo game in terms of damage racking is definitely not where squirtles focus is put.

 

[JayMan-X]

speaking of grabs, what grabs are u guys using most? Of course i use downthrow for the kill at high percents. But whenever i grab at low percents, I usually try up throw, and I never get much :<

 

[bubbaking]

Side throws. I just go for my launchers and try to follow up from there. At low %'s, you can try to get some kind of DI/tech-chase. At the edge and/or at mid %'s, you can try to go for early gimps, which Squirt is pretty good at. I rarely use uthrow anymore, except for that one or two times a match where I want a super unexpected mix-up and the opponent probably expects a side throw after seeing it so much.

 

[JayMan-X]

Also, I am able to jump while in withdraw by pressing up on the control stick. I have tap jump turned off. Odd...

 

[Translucent]

Really Bubba? I've noticed that I'm using mostly up throw for combos, rarely forward throw, and down throw for kills. I find myself not using back throw too often lol.

 

[bubbaking]

Whatever floats your boat. I like uthrow a lot against FFers, like the spacees, but it fails at follow-ups sometimes on the rest of the cast.

 

[JayMan-X]

Well, what I'm seeing is that whenever I shell shift or wavedash into a grab, upthrow combos way better simply because of the all the sliding during the grab.
Back and Forward Throw I don't really understand to well. Ive only been using them to throw people offstage.

Also, are we going to see any new Moves in the OP anytime soon?
I'm guessing everyone's busy just like me

 

[bubbaking]

Squirtle has solid, reliable combos, but they're somewhat short. That's how I'd sum it up. A lot of things reliably chain into certain other things. WD chains into itself, uair, and fair. WD will extend the combo until the opponent learns to tech and/or DI. Uair will usually extend the combo into one more attack. Fair finishes the deal. I like it out of WD at high %'s because it's a semi-reliable kill set-up as long as you get the hit-confirmation. Bubble is similar. Uthrow is kinda similar. Squirtle doesn't have long combos, but he has ones you can depend on.

All things aside, I really like how Squirtle plays now. He has some REALLY good pokes that, to me, make up for any ineffectiveness in his comboing. Everyone knows by now that I'm a Melee Samus megalomaniac. Samus' combos aren't extensive unless you're a master reader/tech-chaser. However, she excels because she can rack up damage and put you offstage via pokes and then proceed to edgeguard/gimp. Squirt is somewhat similar. He has EXCELLENT pokes, thanks to his speed, the range on some moves, and his tail invincibility on others. D/ftilt, bair, Bubble, etc., they're all really good pokes and if I can 'push' my opponent offstage into a gimpable position, then I win. Squirtle's moves don't have to combo for days. Using his mobility to get into openings, pulling off short combos, and otherwise 'pushing' his opponent around with pokes is honestly good enough.

Edit: The same goes for his grab game. Squirtle's throws aren't the most consistent when it comes to follow-ups. They're decent at best, except for dthrow (that move is spectacular). However, Squirt's sheer mobility, combined with his tricksies and decent grab range, allow him to repeatedly land grab after grab. He can rack up damage and position his opponent through grabs, even if he can't optimally combo off of them. Basically, his grabs are 'pokes'.

 

[Toby.]

Cmart has been quiet for a while. About a month. Any news?

 

[EastCoastEddie]

Cmart, thanks so much for this!

There's an extreme lack of good squirtle videos out there (I hope to change this eventually...) so raw data is important for improving at this point! The fact that his tail is invincible has improved my squirtle so much alone.

Thanks again!

 

[K@$h]

The fact that his tail is invincible has improved my squirtle so much alone.

i had no idea his tail was invincible... i guess ill have to incorporate it more.

 

[bubbaking]

Only during some moves, I believe. Those moves are ftilt, dtilt, and bair.

 

[EastCoastEddie]

Only during some moves, I believe. Those moves are ftilt, dtilt, and bair.

Yes bubbaking is right, I should have been more specific.

 

[cmart]

Sorry guys, I've been pretty busy working on all manner of things for Project M, but this guide hasn't been one of them. I'll try to find some time to work on it again.

 

[Bones0]

Sometimes when I recover with Aqua Jet I just continue at the same trajectory. Is there a reason for this? I know I'm not just missing the input because I can see Squirtle doing the attack, but it's getting kind of annoying just randomly dying when I am trying to AJ back. Whether or not I have a jump seems irrelevant.

 

[traffic.]

i've already reported in the bug forum, if you are still carrying knockback momentum you will aqua jet downwards