Special Tier list topic (Please read opening post)

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Now before you say "This belongs in the Tier discussion thread." Note that I have already tried this, and it didn't quite get the attention I and others thought it should , so I thought a completely separate topic would yield more results.

The reason I'm posting this list is not because I feel like it, but because it has already been disscused to death/cannot be improved more on the original site where I made this (Gamefaqs, yep, Flame away folks, I know it's a giant ****pit for the most part. There are still SOME intelligent people there, just an overflow of noobs/scrubs >_>) with 2000+ posts of disscussion. I decided to take it here not only because people wanted it to be disscussed to higher powers in the Smash community, but to really get even more intelligent posters to really "perfect it" with even more input. And the fact That we believed that it couldn't be improved much more on such a site.

(Links to previous 4 topics discussing this list)

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=928518&topic=42497436 (1st)

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=928518&topic=42639999 (2nd)

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=928518&topic=42684552
(3rd)

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=928518&topic=42895739 (4th)

As you can see, it has gone through heavy changes, the more data I collect and decipher, the more accurate it gets.

IF you have a question about a character's placing, you might wanna skim through these just to make sure I haven't answered it already. A lot of the data that I collected was from various topics in this dissucion section, so for the people who made said things, I thank you, very, very much.


Reasons for making this: What I'm trying to accomplish is get very close to what the current tiers, and the eventual Real Tiers from SmashBoards, would look like hypothetically speaking, using mostly the tourney results from the US, Daily tourney results list from Japan, and overall character abilites and matchups. I may need some help determining the matchup advantages/disadvantages, but that's what your constructive criticism is for. I am not claiming that all said characters will end up in all said Tiers, and this list should be taken with a grain of salt in the long run.


The OFFICIAL definition of Tiers: (So I do't get flamed by Tires don exits noobs)

Tiers: Tiers are a general breakdown of how each character stacks up in comparison to the other characters in the game. The tier list assumes a few things. First and most importantly is that it is based on the current metagame (which is based on the mind-games and technical skill of the top players). Current is the vital point here, it is not based on future potential, but on current potential. Second, the tier list assumes those playing are of near equal skill, and that they are both near the top of the technical (human) ability for their given character.

What exactly does all this mean? Essentially under most circumstances the higher tiered character will beat the lower tiered character. It is a simply a list of overall advantages, which characters have more advantages in more match ups than other characters. What it doesn't mean is that Sheik will always destroy Marth simply because she is located 2 spots above Marth on the tier list. The impact of the tier list at the top levels of play is minimal once you move into the High Tier and above. Instead, counter characters begin to play a larger role. This also brings up a large portion of the confusion regarding the tier list because a lower ranked character can be a counter to a character ranked much higher. The easiest example here is the Ice Climbers versus Sheik. While Sheik has more advantages in more match ups, the Ice Climbers are one of the few characters that can chain grab her, and as a result they are her only hard counter.

Matchup Chart I use for reference (Not official, and not even completed/correct in some parts, but the best info that i have in what is likely my weakest area of research. You got a better thing to use, show me and I will. Will get more accurate as time goes on):

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979

US tourney wins/results data (flawed at the bottom maybe I will admit because it's partially due to unpopularity, but hey it's still good data. Will also get more accurate as time goes on)

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

(NOTE/Disclaimer): I do not claim any of my list to be fact. Constructive criticism is wanted, but not random flaming because I put your favorite at a tier level you didnt like. If you really want me to change it, state smart, structed textual and/or video evidence of why X character should be in Y tier. . . If you disagree with the list, just give a small explanation why and if it's plausible i will adjust the best I can. When I refer to a certain character as said tier, I am only referring to my list only )

And here it is, the latest verision of this very disscused list.

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
Mr. Game and Watch
Marth
Falco
R.O.B.
Toon Link*

High Tier:
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Olimar
King Dedede
Pikachu
Diddy Kong
Zelda
Pit
Fox
Wario
Kirby*


Mid Tier:
Lucario
Lucas
ZSS
Donkey Kong
Ness
Luigi
Bowser
Mario

Low tier :
Peach*
Sheik
Pokemon Trainer
Yoshi
Ike
Sonic

Bottom Tier:
Link
Samus
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon


(EDIT 1: Moved Peach a few spots)
(EDIT 2:Moved Zelda up. Moved Yoshi down, moved Peach up etc. Asterisk spot are places high for debate.)

 

[Mathieu21]

¬__¬

Good job.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Sup longhorn!

 

[smashbot226]

Jigglypuff and Captain Falcon + Bottom Tier = WTF?!?

Mr. Game N Watch + Top Tier = Blasphemy. Light as hell, and not THAT strong either.

Diddy > Olimar, in my opinion.

And finally,

Ice Climbers + Top of High Tier = Questionable mental state.

Otherwise, the rest of the list is...

Well, still godforsaken.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Didn't you read his opening post!

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Sony, if that's you, I TOLD YOU TO GET OFF MA NUTS!

 

[Adapt]

I'm interested in hearing the rationale for putting peach in the bottom tier.

In the tournament tier topic she does better than 2/3s of the cast

 

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

Eh... Well It's alright.

 

[The Executive]

I'm impressed. Credit is given where credit is due (Wario, Bowser, G&W).

This is actually quite similar to what you get when you tabulate the Match-Up chart in the other thread. I did that last week and this isn't too different.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Ah, that's kind of interesting.

And Adapt, I personally think Peach is going to drop eventually, but I may move her up to low. Her matchups aren't exactly what I'd call good, and as an overall character so many characters just seem to have overall more potential and things going for them overall. To put it in a TL:DR way.

 

[popsofctown]

Jigglypuff and Captain Falcon + Bottom Tier = WTF?!?
Diddy > Olimar, in my opinion.
Ice Climbers + Top of High Tier = Questionable mental state.
Otherwise, the rest of the list is...
Well, still godforsaken.

The Ice Climbers are a really, really good character. I expect them to rise to the top tier.
They have a sturdy projectile, several approaches, sick chain grabs, smash attacks that, combined, do more damage than almost any other character in the game. They have super armor on their B>, which is incredibly useful on such a fast move. And sick chain grabs. I've seen infinites made when using their neutral B on a character that is flat on his back (the ice climbers must be seperate).
This game is super grab happy. The Ice Climbers can grab quickly and go into lead-to-KO chain grab. And since there is two of them, they are very difficult to grab, which takes a huge chunk out of their opponent's game.
Strong aerials.
A spike.
more than enough for high tier. They freaking scare me.

 

[BurningCrusader777]

Ah, so the chaos begins. Gotta give you props for coming here to post it Longhorn.

No need to comment on the actual list itself; I already have.

 

[TehBo49]

Pretty good list. Just one question: why is Samus bottom tier. I don't think she's that bad.

 

[popsofctown]

mm, i have a disagreement. Lucario should fall below Zelda... somewhere below Zelda. True, they are only two slots apart. But a friend and i went for two straight months playing Zelda vs. Lucario games and after our meta-games stabilized, i was winning more than him.
Do you want some videos? I'll see about getting some if you want.

 

[Adapt]

Ah, that's kind of interesting.

And Adapt, I personally think Peach is going to drop eventually, but I may move her up to low. Her matchups aren't exactly what I'd call good, and as an overall character so many characters just seem to have overall more potential and things going for them overall. To put it in a TL:DR way.

I tend to disagree, peach is low in the match-up thread because she requires too high of a commitment to play well, you can't just pick her up and win. So you have very few people that can play well with her, and a large amount of people that don't win as much so she gets a bad reputation. I would (based on watching videos) place her in mid or upper-low tier.
As people learn to play her better I think she will gain ground.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

She's pretty bad in just about everything I grade my list by. Tourney Results, Matchups(Actually only below average, but that's not gonna help overweigh other factors), overall character ability compared to the rest of the roster.

Also, I will make edits when strong arguements are proven and accepted as true. Remember that this isn't set in stone, not by a long shot.


This is about Samus BTW, not Peach

 

[Blackbelt]

I always enjoyed your tier lists on the gamefaqs board, and I must say this ope is, as always, good.



Though I want Pokemon Trainer to be higher.

And I'll get him higher, even if I gotta do it myself.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Please, I really don't like the "*Character* is only bad because you don't know how to use him/her" arguement, please use other facts to back up your claim.


And I'm actually considering that, considering that her tourney output is actually ok. Altough in the other factors she isn't all that good. And I don't think that the Bottom Tier should be larger than the Low, that seems semi-silly >_>

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

mm, i have a disagreement. Lucario should fall below Zelda... somewhere below Zelda. True, they are only two slots apart. But a friend and i went for two straight months playing Zelda vs. Lucario games and after our meta-games stabilized, i was winning more than him.
Do you want some videos? I'll see about getting some if you want.

I don't think you really know what Metagame means.....

And that's only one example anyway.....Gonna need better proof than that.

 

[Nintendo_lord]

Wow, this tier list is the first great one I've seen! I have two concerns:

1. Ness's incredibly low point on this list. Ness I must start out by saying is one of the characters with the most unseen power in the game! His bair feels very easy to land, and his fair can approach with great priority. Ness has an amazing dair spike, his uair is quite powerful, and his fsmash is one of the best. I haven't even mentioned his greatest weapon: PK Thunder! This attack can kill at extremely low percents and a skilled Ness player knows how to land it very well. In Melee I even remember one incedent where I was fighting a Ness at MLG, when he pulled out a PKT and killed me. I realized the might of this move and its power even continues into Brawl. It seems Ness's biggest flaw, however, is the Marth match-up. Here he is dominated by the infinite chaingrab, which makes him unplayable against the swordsman. But a good Ness player will train a secondary character as a Marth Counter so that they may get around this gap. Ness's grabs are some of the best in the game (his bthrow is probably the best in the game), and his dthrow sets up for many aerial juggles. His over-b is great for preparing to use Ness's bthrow kills, and he has overall good priority. There are many styles of fighting with Ness because of his counter to projectiles(down-b) and good close combat vs. projectile combat strategies. I find very few problems with Ness, and with his amazing variety of fighting styles huge number of finishers, and projectile counters, Ness is such a great character that he demands a spot on this tier list where he will get the respect he deserves: just below Olimar in high tier!

and

2. The placing of C. Falcon, he does not deserve the bottom of the bottom tier. Falcon has a fairly good aerial game even without l-canceling, and his knee can still be devastating with proper timing. I have found that very few non-professionals use Falcon, so it is a given that his knee will be spaced quite well in a tournament scene. Additionally his recovery has improved in speed from Melee where Angelobangelo even went as far as saying,"Seriously. My grandmother can shine me out of it...And she's paralyzed and has had all of her limbs amputated." Also, Falcon's dair is now very effective as it can kill regardless of being used as a spike due to its fair knockback. The throws that the Falcon possesses are okay setups to knees and uairs and his raptor boost seems to be improved. Professionals playing Captain Falcon will find new methods of comboing so that once again he will be indomitable. People may be looking down upon this racer because of his "kneelessness", but I see him as being reborn into a new powerful fighter who deserves a spot at the bottom of the midtier, just above Luigi.

 

[Mike_Echoes]

Why GW above Marth? Curiosity's sake here

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Matchups wise, Marth actually beats him out slightly. But as an overall character, I think G&W has the edge. The SBR description of him really says alot about how the pros think about him. Uncampable, best approach in the game, great killing power. Next to Wolf and Snake one of the best overall movesets in the game. Underrated projectiles. And amazing tourney output so far pushes him over Marth, who has been slightly underperforming. And so much more.


The only bad thing you really could say he that's he's very light.

 

[Mike_Echoes]

Fair enough, my buddies must suck with him cuz I can 2 sometime 3 stock them... hmm

 

[Kilut]

mm, i have a disagreement. Lucario should fall below Zelda... somewhere below Zelda. True, they are only two slots apart. But a friend and i went for two straight months playing Zelda vs. Lucario games and after our meta-games stabilized, i was winning more than him.
Do you want some videos? I'll see about getting some if you want.

You definitely don't know what you're talking about. Neither you nor your friend has a metagame. That takes a couple years. Now maybe if you and your friend have been playing brawl for a couple years, then I'll have to take back everything I just said. But you probably haven't so I won't take that back.(I will, though edit this post in a couple of years after your the top performing zelda in the world and your friend is of equal skill, but with lucario, and zelda wins every match consistently then just give me the word) And also, one person just saying that they can beat a lucario with zelda, doesn't mean anything to the tier list overall.

@NintendoLord One reason Ness is so low is the fact of the super easy chain-grab that can be used by many players against him, he wasn't an AMAZING player to begin with, but that just ruins any chance of somebody doing amazingly well with him at a high level, because all it takes is one marth(marth isn't the only one) to grab him and there goes a stock.

 

[Resident_Smash_Genius]

Top Tier:
Snake - Yup
Meta Knight - Mhmmm
Mr. Game and Watch - Yeah-huh
Marth - yup
Falco - unfortunately yes
R.O.B. - yup


High Tier:
Toon Link - Looks good
Ice Climbers - I'd raise ICs a tier, but whatever
Pikachu - maybe...
King Dedede - Yes
Wolf - Yes
Olimar - Yes
Diddy Kong - Yes
Fox - I'd drop him...
Pit - Yes
Wario - A well deserved spot for Wario
Kirby - I'd probably drop him as well


Mid Tier:
Lucario - I think Lucario is terrible but hey I have yet to see a good one
Lucas - CG? Maybe lower...
Zelda - I'd love to see Zelda be high tier
ZSS - Sure
Donkey Kong - Yes, god yes...
Ness - Smae as lucas
Luigi - Yes
Bowser - Really??
Mario - Of course

Low tier :
Sheik - No, definitely higher
Yoshi - Lower IMO
Pokemon Trainer - IDK rock smash... lol...
Ike - I'd actually put him on par with DK or Luigi, he's so gimp-riffic
Sonic - Yes

Bottom Tier:
Peach - No, much much higher, at least mid tier, it takes devotion to run her but she's good
Link - Unfortunately, I really agree with Link's placement here
Samus - I haven't seen anyone do anything with Smaus yet so....
Jigglypuff - Higher, Jiggs is still good
Ganondorf - God, lowest of the low...
Captain Falcon- too bad CF fans he belongs here

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

The CG doesn't affect Lucas nearly as much as it affects Ness because his DI effectively kicks in at 25-30% >_>

Lucas still has Mid Tier potential.

 

[The Executive]

2. The placing of C. Falcon, he does not deserve the bottom of the bottom tier. Falcon has a fairly good aerial game even without l-canceling, and his knee can still be devastating with proper timing. I have found that very few non-professionals use Falcon, so it is a given that his knee will be spaced quite well in a tournament scene. Additionally his recovery has improved in speed from Melee where Angelobangelo even went as far as saying,"Seriously. My grandmother can shine me out of it...And she's paralyzed and has had all of her limbs amputated." Also, Falcon's dair is now very effective as it can kill regardless of being used as a spike due to its fair knockback. The throws that the Falcon possesses are okay setups to knees and uairs and his raptor boost seems to be improved. Professionals playing Captain Falcon will find new methods of comboing so that once again he will be indomitable. People may be looking down upon this racer because of his "kneelessness", but I see him as being reborn into a new powerful fighter who deserves a spot at the bottom of the midtier, just above Luigi.

Assuming that any pro is reckless enough to play CF at an actual tourney, I still doubt he'd fair well. Reliance on the few non-gimped aerials Falcon has will do nothing due to decay, and t3h KNEE isn't exactly a lock; it's incredibly easy to predict/dodge regardless of how well it's spaced and can be severely punished.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

the teir list is okay... but it's definitely got problems... and if it's got problems then it's really no better than a teir list that anyone else would want to submit. I know you really want the flow of posts into your thread, but there's really no reason that you should be the exception to the "no teir list" rule

 

[The Real Gamer]

I STRONGLY disagree with the pokemon trainer placement. You can switch to any pokemon you want for your own advantage. Charizard lives longer than a majority of all the other characters due to his weight+his gliding ability, which is great for lasting for a long time. Ivysaur has range that can rival Olimar and also has the most BROKEN neutral B in the game. Squirtle has some of the greatest aerials in the game, and he also is great for mind-games with his shell-dashing and super armored withdrawl attack.

 

[zamz]

I'm just curious, but why is Marth 1 slot better than Falco? I'm going out on a limb here, but in any given situation it seems Falco > Marth in a 1v1 fight.

Considering Marth has no projectile, Falco seems to have an easier time with more matchups than Marth. Falco has the potential to gimp many more characters, including the low-tier Ike. Plus, any potential "But Marth has CG!" is nulled because Falco has CG as well.

I'm arguing over spilt milk considering they're both easily at the top of the list. But my first instinct seems to say that Falco > Marth.

 

[Slayers8anFTW]

I'm sorry, but even debating a tier list at this point is futile...especially with this game. I main Zelda, and I believe my Zelda is pretty good. When I'm playing against a person and see what character he picks when the match starts, I never look at that character and go "I'm screwed" or "I've got this" (except Wario ). It's much to early in the game to tell, no major game altering AT's have been discovered that have been able to break the amazing amount of balance that Sakurai put into this game. It's more about player skill this time around, and less about character selection... and i love it. Yes there are bad matchups, but that's hardly enough to go by to make a tier list. Even using tourney results can be misleading this early in the game...give it a year or so, let the metagame develop, and let Brawl run it's course through the MLG circuit for a season, then start speculating.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Ah, this is similar to the former Marth and Fox conundrum in Melee, where Marth was viewed to have an advtanage over Fox, but Fox was still higher on the Tir list overall. In all respect Falco does seem to have the advantage on Marth, but Marth overall seems to have better matchups against the rest overall. Plus, at the time of this post, Marth is outperforming him in the US as well.

in order to leapfrog a character when you reach those Tiers, it takes a lot of evidence

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I'm sorry, but even debating a tier list at this point is futile...especially with this game. I main Zelda, and I believe my Zelda is pretty good. When I'm playing against a person and see what character he picks when the match starts, I never look at that character and go "I'm screwed" or "I've got this" (except Wario ). It's much to early in the game to tell, no major game altering AT's have been discovered that have been able to break the amazing amount of balance that Sakurai put into this game. It's more about player skill this time around, and less about character selection... and i love it. Yes there are bad matchups, but that's hardly enough to go by to make a tier list. Even using tourney results can be misleading this early in the game...give it a year or so, let the metagame develop, and let Brawl run it's course through the MLG circuit for a season, then start speculating.

If you wait one year before you even start speculating.....then it would take an entire year to actually make it.


It's speculated from the very release, altough things start to solidify as time goes on. If that's not evident by now just by looking at the stickes in this section of the site you need to pay more attention

And besides, many of the advantages/disadvantages are slightly few are actually hard counters like Marth vs the PK boys. And once again, with enough of a skill advantage over another, anything can be overidden

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

the teir list is okay... but it's definitely got problems... and if it's got problems then it's really no better than a teir list that anyone else would want to submit. I know you really want the flow of posts into your thread, but there's really no reason that you should be the exception to the "no teir list" rule

Except I doubt other Tier lists that some people just make one on the spot or put next to no thought or data at all into it. This one has been discussed by an entire small community for a while with 2000+ posts of discussion. I brought it up here so it could be disscussed by a higher echelon of Smash players
I'm not saying my list is fact, I'm just saying that it's definately not one of those lists made by scrubs in the Tier disscussion topic who just made their account 5 minutes ago.


Also, I never really saw where on the description of Tactical discussion where we couldn't post one. And I is before E in Tiers >_>

 

[Slayers8anFTW]

I partially understand the need for a tier list in Brawl, but I think alot of people are in the frame of mind that the Brawl tier list is going to be as influential to the game as it was in Melee, and I don't believe it will be. I have a question that needs to be answered before I continue my big "anti-tier" rant, lol. When I originally joined Smashboards, it was about 3 years after Melee's release. That is when I learned about all of the ATs that had been discovered that I had never known about. What was the time frame between the release of Melee and the existance of the major AT's in tournament play (L-cancelling, wavedashing, crouch cancelling, etc.)

 

[Illussionary]

Good list, seems about right so far. But I can see ICs rising to Top Tier and maybe PT Rising the Mid or High Tier.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I partially understand the need for a tier list in Brawl, but I think alot of people are in the frame of mind that the Brawl tier list is going to be as influential to the game as it was in Melee, and I don't believe it will be. I have a question that needs to be answered before I continue my big "anti-tier" rant, lol. When I originally joined Smashboards, it was about 3 years after Melee's release. That is when I learned about all of the ATs that had been discovered that I had never known about. What was the time frame between the release of Melee and the existance of the major AT's in tournament play (L-cancelling, wavedashing, crouch cancelling, etc.)

It will be just as influential comparatively as it was in Melee, because it serves the very same purpose.

Anyways, it actually only took a month or two the find said ATs. It just took LONGER for them to actually be applied and used well in a tourney setting.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Except I doubt other Tier lists that some people just make one on the spot or put next to no thought or data at all into it. This one has been discussed by an entire small community for a while with 2000+ posts of discussion. I brought it up here so it could be disscussed by a higher echelon of Smash players
I'm not saying my list is fact, I'm just saying that it's definately not one of those lists made by scrubs in the Tier disscussion topic who just made their account 5 minutes ago.


Also, I never really saw where on the description of Tactical discussion where we couldn't post one. And I is before E in Tiers >_>

so I'm bad at speeling,t aht doesn't change the fact that this tier list is no special enough to break the rules. Zelda, for one thing is much better than her placement... she's a good deal better than DDD for example... without his chaingrab, he's really nothing special

 

[Nintendo_lord]

I'm just curious, but why is Marth 1 slot better than Falco? I'm going out on a limb here, but in any given situation it seems Falco > Marth in a 1v1 fight.

Considering Marth has no projectile, Falco seems to have an easier time with more matchups than Marth. Falco has the potential to gimp many more characters, including the low-tier Ike. Plus, any potential "But Marth has CG!" is nulled because Falco has CG as well.

I'm arguing over spilt milk considering they're both easily at the top of the list. But my first instinct seems to say that Falco > Marth.

In a Marth vs. Falco match it may seem that Falco is better, but overall considering the entire cast Marth may have the upper hand. My friend mains Falco, however although it can almost beat my main, which is actually Marth, he does not do so well in other match ups against my worser characters. This is because in Brawl, Falco is nearly a Marth counter as his projectile is deadly to non-projectile characters.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I don't see how this "Take one thing away from a character and he isn't all that great" arguement is plausable. If you took away Snake Mindgame potential he's really nothing special. If you take away MK's Aerial game he's nothing special. That's just a crappy arguement overall. And even without the CG, DDD would still be a decent heavyweight.

Also, like I said in the OP. It's not only decided by one factor, it's decided by many. Zelda hasn't all too impressive in tourney outings as of now , altough that's something subject to change. While Zelda as a character is percived as good by many, like PT and ZSS, they don't quite have the tourney standing to back that up. While DDD is excellent in botn character ability/potential and Tourney outings (He's 3rd behind Snake and MK, who are heads and shoulders above everyone else right now).


And I still do not see where in the tactical disscussion description where all Tier list topics have to be in the Tier discussion thread.

And I only pointed out one small spelling mistake, why so defensive?