I've been trying to improve on my spacing, and it seems that a major component is being right out of harm's (potential) way in order to retaliate asap after a missed attack. So you want to know exactly how far away the enemy's quickest attack can hit you. We don't seem to have any compendium on this though. :/ So assuming both players are standing on a flat surface, what is each character's quickest move?
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Spacing
- Thread starter Fish641
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Zantetsu
Smash Master
As long as the moves come out and are Z-canceled, it shouldn't really matter. I think you're going to want to know what moves have the farthest reach so you can poke at your opponent and not get punished by a grab or something.
I'm subscribing to this thread. From playing Melee, lots of my spacing comes from players missing a shuffled attack, and I take advantage of their landing lag to go in for a grab/combo. In 64, it's hard to punish aerials since they have no landing lag when Z-canceled. I noticed my spacing is pretty awful, so the advice I gave above could be totally wrong. It's just from what I think will work.
I'm subscribing to this thread. From playing Melee, lots of my spacing comes from players missing a shuffled attack, and I take advantage of their landing lag to go in for a grab/combo. In 64, it's hard to punish aerials since they have no landing lag when Z-canceled. I noticed my spacing is pretty awful, so the advice I gave above could be totally wrong. It's just from what I think will work.
The Star King
Smash Hero
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It's really hard to teach spacing in text lol. It's something that you have to learn for yourself through experience, IMO.
Zantetsu
Smash Master
There has to be some things you can teach. Like:
"don't go in if they're doing this"
or
"if they attempt this and miss, go in with this"
I know each character is different, but there's got to be some basic stuff to teach. My understanding of spacing in this game is much worse than I expected.
clubbadubba
Smash Master
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Like SK said, really hard to convey in text. My suggestion: play people who are much better than you. A month or two ago I played A$ (on console), boom, and frogles for a combined 7+ hours. Got my *** handed to me, but after that I noticed a significant improvement in my game shortly thereafter, and it wasn't because of increased tech skill or combo ability. It will be really annoying to get destroyed over and over again, but just try and focus on how better players are getting through your defenses and why you can't get through theirs.
Zantetsu
Smash Master
But what if you're doing just as well against good players as you are mediocre players?
I seem to perform the same against everyone, minus a few people who are just too good.
I seem to perform the same against everyone, minus a few people who are just too good.
The Star King
Smash Hero
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Do you lose against everyone or win against everyone?
SheerMadness
Smash Master
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Depends on the character.
Like for fox, ftilt and retreating fairs are good spacing tools.
Like for fox, ftilt and retreating fairs are good spacing tools.
The Star King
Smash Hero
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Also depends on the match-up. And relative positions to each other.
I don't think anyone's in disagreement (that spacing is hard to convey in text, that it depends on your opponent, etc.), but I'm not trying to get a full spacing guide in text. I'm just talking about maximum range from the ground, mostly to know at what range dash dancing is useful. If you can flirt with their max range, then they could jump and you can retaliate quickly. Unfortunately, I don't know where to begin without knowing what I need to be watching out for
Red the Ghost
Smash Ace
You can't even really do that. The only way would be to play with/against all characters enough until you get a general idea of what works in which situation. Tilts, jabs and grabs are generally the quickest to punish with, but it's really situational. It also heavily depends on how fast the character can move across the stage (this increases their potential range) and how skilled the player is. It's a very dynamic thing; if it could be explained in a useful way in a guide, somebody probably would have done it already. Watch how players move in their matches closely. Also, record your matches against good players and pay attention to how they punished you and why they were able to. Try specific things when you play to figure out when they can be used. Experimentation pays off a lot.
asianaussie
Smash Hero
knowing ranges etc is assumed
spacing is way more than just that
spacing is way more than just that
clubbadubba
Smash Master
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Another thing that helped me with spacing was playing smash using the keyboard. I had only ever played using an n64 controller before, but then was in a period where I didn't have one. So I started using kb a little bit. In order to win using kb, I had to learn to space better, since I had almost zero combo ability. You lose tech skill, and you have to make up for it by focusing more on the mental aspect of the game. I recommend everyone should try out a new device they can't play well on and see if it helps them out.
Zantetsu
Smash Master
It's off and on with a lot of people, minus the really great ones and really bad ones. There's just some random people that I believe I should wreck (not going to say names) because I've done well against players who were way better then them. I just don't understand what exactly I'm doing wrong. I've found a few of my problems that I'm working on, but I think there's more then just those because these problems are ones I don't get punished for too much. I won't go into specifics due to the SSBL (Why announce my weaknesses?) but I'm going to try and have someone specific help me out if he doesn't mind.
Peek? : )
Actually, it's more than just "experience." It all depends on how fast you pick up on what you're doing right and wrong and how much thought you put into your spacing.
Yes you can. Maybe not the part where you say "I will be great" but you can say "I will learn spacing today". When I played Melee, I spent a large amount of my early career working on technical skill. Next came spacing. And now I'm working on my reactions to common situations. Maybe it's just me (I doubt it, there has to be others), but I can't learn as well by just playing. I like to split up everything and focus on the specifics one at a time to get them all down well. If I learned by just "experience", then I'd probably be better against some of the newer people here, when I'm actually not.
There's more than reading your opponents when it comes to spacing. You've got to be very fluent with your movement around the stage, know your hitboxes, and you've got to make it where your opponents don't read you as well. Spacing, to me, is doing everything you can to get your hit in, without being hit.
SpeedGhost
Smash Cadet
Falcon- Retreating sh fairs, sh bairs out of dash dance. f-tilts can be nice too. Also, mindlessly dash dancing with falcon is useless. You need to build your own rythms but make sure they aren't patterned, learn to sh fair right out of a nice tight dash dance
Fox- Retreating fairs, bair is a nice option too but you need to be SH z-cancelling these like 99% of the time or else you get punished. if you want to be campy, get shdl down. Again, some nice f-tilts worked in for a surprise, and d-tilts can be nice because of the range. You can tech chase pple with fox very annoyingly working in jabs, f-tilts other sh*t and then just running Usmash them...
Mario- Retreating fairs again, fireballs are cash money. try to get it down so you are pressuring as the fireball arrives. Sh-uairs are a nice surprise because it comes out nice and quick and this can lead to multiple things such as u-tilt continuations into more uairs and so on... utilizing mario's dash attack can be a nice surprise at the RIGHT %s. Doing it too early gets you grabbed n sh*t.
PIka- fair is only good near the ground to possible lead into a grab/utilt depending on where your opponent DIs. Uair is pure cash tho. Great range. Bair is good but some people tend to abuse it and play backwards the whole time which is unneccessary. if you are playing taller chars... sh dairs are nice and you can keep tech chasing them with it. learning to sh dair into a Usmash at low percents is a nice combo starter. as you start playing better players this becomes important.
Jiggs- abusing Nair is effective. pounds can surprise people who dont understand its range. teleporting is difficult to learn but when you do lead it into fairs. try to get the hang of fair-nair to grab-->****
Ok, those are just my mains, and that was kind of all over the place. As people above have said, it depends on your opponent, their playstyle and their char. If you play someone enough to know their strengths you can start developing strats to limit them. The above are just general guidlines to get you started man
You can work in some tricks too, spacing is about mindgames as well. Working in d-tilts just after z-cancelling an aerial with pika is just an example. that split second you are on the ground is when alot of pple will come in and try to grab you... you need to bait them into lowering their defences by making them think you are vulnerable. try to get inside your opponents head.
Edit: Being able to control the aerial movement of your char during an attack is an integral part of spacing, especially with fairs. Retreating, advancing, advancing to retreating, stationary... this control is important. Overall knowledge of the game physics/hitboxes as was said above is naturally imperative.
Fox- Retreating fairs, bair is a nice option too but you need to be SH z-cancelling these like 99% of the time or else you get punished. if you want to be campy, get shdl down. Again, some nice f-tilts worked in for a surprise, and d-tilts can be nice because of the range. You can tech chase pple with fox very annoyingly working in jabs, f-tilts other sh*t and then just running Usmash them...
Mario- Retreating fairs again, fireballs are cash money. try to get it down so you are pressuring as the fireball arrives. Sh-uairs are a nice surprise because it comes out nice and quick and this can lead to multiple things such as u-tilt continuations into more uairs and so on... utilizing mario's dash attack can be a nice surprise at the RIGHT %s. Doing it too early gets you grabbed n sh*t.
PIka- fair is only good near the ground to possible lead into a grab/utilt depending on where your opponent DIs. Uair is pure cash tho. Great range. Bair is good but some people tend to abuse it and play backwards the whole time which is unneccessary. if you are playing taller chars... sh dairs are nice and you can keep tech chasing them with it. learning to sh dair into a Usmash at low percents is a nice combo starter. as you start playing better players this becomes important.
Jiggs- abusing Nair is effective. pounds can surprise people who dont understand its range. teleporting is difficult to learn but when you do lead it into fairs. try to get the hang of fair-nair to grab-->****
Ok, those are just my mains, and that was kind of all over the place. As people above have said, it depends on your opponent, their playstyle and their char. If you play someone enough to know their strengths you can start developing strats to limit them. The above are just general guidlines to get you started man
You can work in some tricks too, spacing is about mindgames as well. Working in d-tilts just after z-cancelling an aerial with pika is just an example. that split second you are on the ground is when alot of pple will come in and try to grab you... you need to bait them into lowering their defences by making them think you are vulnerable. try to get inside your opponents head.
Edit: Being able to control the aerial movement of your char during an attack is an integral part of spacing, especially with fairs. Retreating, advancing, advancing to retreating, stationary... this control is important. Overall knowledge of the game physics/hitboxes as was said above is naturally imperative.
ballin4life
Smash Hero
Paraphrasing the words of a wise man:
Fox don't need spacing, that motha****a's got a gun
Fox don't need spacing, that motha****a's got a gun
The Star King
Smash Hero
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Paraphrasing Mango's "Falco doesn't need spacing because he has lasers"? That's right, I know my stuff.
Or I saw the interview just yesterday.
Sangoku
Smash Master
I prefered ballin's version better.
I could see them getting punished if done too frequently/predictably, which is kind of the problem with giving any specific advice for spacing.
Na, some advice is good. For example:
As doug, Bair against kirbies a lot to space.
Tried and true, great way to space. If you time and space it right, it beats those Utilts. Of course, you gotta mix it up, but that's always the case. Retreating Fairs with doug/mario though? I don't think I've ever seen them used effectively and often for spacing purposes. Maybe as a mixup or something.
As doug, Bair against kirbies a lot to space.
Tried and true, great way to space. If you time and space it right, it beats those Utilts. Of course, you gotta mix it up, but that's always the case. Retreating Fairs with doug/mario though? I don't think I've ever seen them used effectively and often for spacing purposes. Maybe as a mixup or something.
Mahie
Smash Lord
Isn't it asking to get grabbed? I can see DK pivot grabbing a fair easily.
Sangoku
Smash Master
I had written a reply, then bad gateway.
I find retreating fair good against rushing opponent. Rushing grab DK/falcon for example. Retreating can get you away from grab range.
Also a cool trick when the match starts (on hyrule, falcon ditto) if your opponents has the habit of directly rushing to grab/upsmash, do a retreating fair to pivot behind him grab. Don't know if that legit works or if I just do it by luck.
I find retreating fair good against rushing opponent. Rushing grab DK/falcon for example. Retreating can get you away from grab range.
Also a cool trick when the match starts (on hyrule, falcon ditto) if your opponents has the habit of directly rushing to grab/upsmash, do a retreating fair to pivot behind him grab. Don't know if that legit works or if I just do it by luck.
You're not running up and fairing at him, you're sort of spacing it at the tips of doug's feet. Like, so that if DK shields you've sometimes got time to run in and grab, and if he doesn't you hit him, and if he gets outside of your fair you land in time to get away.
works real well for me
ballin4life
Smash Hero
SpeedGhost
Smash Cadet
Yo i definitely wasn't trying to imply that retreating fairs is all you do with falcon.. Its just another tool that can be utilized and as was said above it's great against rushers and grabbers. Same for mario, its not like I space ratreating fairs alllll the time. I was just trying to give the guy who started the thread some idea of the different things you can work into your spacing. Spacing needs variety too or else it gets predictable and thats when you get punished. Retreating fairs with CFALC work well because the tips of his feet will be connecting and it doesn't allow the opponent any opportunities to "dodge grab" because you are retreating. I was just trying to give the guy some ideas of different options.
Hey, that's cool, don't mean to get on your case or anything- I've just never seen retreating fairs used well and consistently as a spacing tool, and mentioning them with only like two other things implies that they're pretty important.
Maybe you're right, though, and I'm just missing something.
And of course, variety is important as well.
Maybe you're right, though, and I'm just missing something.
And of course, variety is important as well.
SpeedGhost
Smash Cadet
Oh its all cool man. No worries... Everyone has their own playstyles and naturally your spacing evolves to suit your competition. It seems theres nobody good in Ontario except for me so maybe it's something that works against the people I'm playing. I have considered this.. because impatient players will get pwned by retreating fairs.. but I still think its a viable option for falcon instead of bair wars.
\\Killer//
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2010
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- 377
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Spacing
Fourth paragraph;
The true key to mastering spacing is experience - learning the range of other characters and how to space against them when faced with a given situation. To improve spacing, c-sticking aerials has also been advised as it can negate the momentum that aerials would have when using the "A" button.
Fourth paragraph;
The true key to mastering spacing is experience - learning the range of other characters and how to space against them when faced with a given situation. To improve spacing, c-sticking aerials has also been advised as it can negate the momentum that aerials would have when using the "A" button.
SpeedGhost
Smash Cadet
The other stuff was for melee bro.
KnitePhox
Smash Lord
LMFAO I HAVE A NEW QUOTE FOR MY SIG.
(metaphorical) ggs bcow.
The Star King
Smash Hero
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I agree with that section from Smashwiki. Not sure what's up with the hate.
And dang Kirby harms beginners' skill? That explains why I'm so bad at this game.
And dang Kirby harms beginners' skill? That explains why I'm so bad at this game.