Sonic's matchup averages

[Kinzer]

(I take no credit for this idea. Also, if this doesn't warrant its own thread, I'm sorry. :/)

Hi there, Kinzer here.

You've seen them on other character boards, and you know how they work, so now it looks like a good time to collect and average out everybody's opinion on Sonic's matchup ratios before the end of the year. If you need an example, take a look at this:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=251309

I believe it's self-explanatory, but just in case you don't quite understand what I want to do, I need you to go over the entire cast and post (in what is your opinion) what you think the matchup between Sonic on that character is. For simplicity reasons, I will not be going over Zelda/Sheik as a combo, and no individual Pokemon. Please don't give too much though about it, or go to other people and ask their opinion, I need YOURS and yours only.

I believe this warrants its own thread because I don't want you, nor will I have you debate with other people on what should be the final ratio for Sonic Vs. *insert other character here*, all I will be doing is just collecting data and finding a mean number.

Before January 1st, 2010, I hope to have a couple of peoples' list and have a final conclusion. Perhaps sometime before 2010 ends, we can do this project again and compare Sonic's metagame from last year to what will be present day. Anybody is welcome to post their opinions, though it would be appreciated if you had some idea of Sonic as a character, and general knowledge on the whole cast... but I'm not going to strip-search everybody, as that would take too much of my time.

I'll be using a 7-scale system:

- Matchups 50-50 are considered to be dead even.
- Matchups 55-45 / 60-40 and vice-versa are considered to be minor dis/advantages.
- Matchups 65-35 / 70-30 and vice versa are considered to be major dis/advantages
- Matchups 75-25 and more and vice-versa are considered to be "It's no use, give up!", and "Get a load of this!" respectively.

Please do not use the ratios themselves, go with the more simple words, as to make averaging easier, and saving you time from having to go "hmm, do I think this character is this bad or not so much...?", For example, if you think Captain Falcon Vs. Sonic is 55-45 in favor of Sonic, you will type it like:

Captain Falcon: Minor advantage.

Colors are optional.


Without further ado, here is a list you can copy & paste, and fill the blanks are necessary. Characters will be arranged in alphabetical order to prevent complications with an ever-changing Smash Backroom Tier-list.

Bowser:
Captain Falcon:
Diddy Kong:
Donkey Kong:
Falco:
Fox:
Mr. Game & Watch:
Ganondorf:
Ice Climbers:
Ike:
Jigglypuff:
King Dedede:
Kirby:
Link:
Lucario:
Lucas:
Luigi:
Mario:
Marth:
Meta Knight:
Ness:
Olimar:
Peach:
Pikachu:
Pit:
Pokémon Trainer:
R.O.B.:
Samus:
Sheik:
Snake:
Sonic:
Toon Link:
Wario:
Wolf:
Yoshi:
Zelda:
Zero Suit Samus:

__________________________________________________________________________

Below the line will be pasted with peoples' list of their opinions on Sonic's matchups. Below the line is also continual updates. Please check in every now and then to lend any assistance you can with the project. For example, my math may be off, or I might've made some kind of typo or mistake that needs fixin'.

Please note that once your list is updated into the original post, it is FINAL unless mentioned otherwise. While I tried to make it so that there wouldn't be any pressure for you to think about the ratios, you still need to think a little bit on what you think the degree of a specific matchup is. This is to keep updates to a minimal/avoid confusion.

I'll start.

Kinzer

Bowser: Even
Captain Falcon: Minor advantage
Diddy Kong: Even
Donkey Kong: Minor disadvantage
Falco: Minor disadvantage
Fox: Even
Mr. Game & Watch: Major disadvantage
Ganondorf: Minor advantage
Ice Climbers: Minor disadvantage
Ike: Even
Jigglypuff: Minor advantage
King Dedede: Minor disadvantage
Kirby: Even
Link: Minor advantage
Lucario: Major disadvantage
Lucas: Minor advantage
Luigi: Even
Mario: Even
Marth: Minor disadvantage
Meta Knight: Minor disadvantage
Ness: Even
Olimar: Minor disadvantage
Peach: Minor disadvantage
Pikachu: Minor disadvantage
Pit: Even
Pokémon Trainer: Even
R.O.B.: Minor disadvantage
Samus: Even
Sheik: Even
Snake: Minor disadvantage
Sonic: Even
Toon Link: Minor disadvantage
Wario: Minor disadvantage
Wolf: Even
Yoshi: Even
Zelda: Minor advantage
Zero Suit Samus: Even

(I can probably give or take on some of these, but otherwise this is what I believe to be Sonic's MUs... clear)

Kojin

Bowser: even
Captain Falcon: slight advantage
Diddy Kong: slight disadvantage
Donkey Kong: slight disadvantage
Falco: slight disadvantage
Fox: even
Mr. Game & Watch: major disadvantage
Ganondorf: major advantage
Ice Climbers: slight disadvantage
Ike: even
Jigglypuff: slight advantage
King Dedede: slight disadvantage
Kirby: even
Link: slight advantage
Lucario: slight disadvantage
Lucas: slight disadvantage
Luigi: slight disadvantage
Mario: even
Marth: major disadvantage
Meta Knight: even
Ness: slight advantage
Olimar: major disadvantage
Peach: slight disadvantage
Pikachu: slight disadvantage
Pit: even
Pokémon Trainer: slight advantage
R.O.B.: slight disadvantage
Samus: slight advantage
Sheik: even
Snake: slight disadvantage
Sonic: steak
Toon Link: slight disadvantage
Wario: slight disadvantage
Wolf: even
Yoshi: even
Zelda: major advantage
Zero Suit Samus: slight disadvantage

(Because I put yours up here during the update, you can do a do-over if you wish)

Kupo

Bowser: Even
Captain Falcon: Minor advantage
Diddy Kong: Even
Donkey Kong: Slight disadvantage
Falco: Slight disadvantage
Fox: Even
Mr. Game & Watch: Major disadvantage
Ganondorf: Minor advantage
Ice Climbers: Slight disadvantage
Ike: Even
Jigglypuff: Minor advantage
King Dedede: Slight advantage
Kirby: Even
Link: Even
Lucario: Major disadvantage
Lucas: Slight disadvantage
Luigi: Major disadvantage
Mario: Even
Marth: Slight disadvantage
Meta Knight: Slight disadvantage
Ness: Slight disadvantage
Olimar: Major disadvantage
Peach: Slight disadvantage
Pikachu: Even
Pit: Slight disadvantage
Pokémon Trainer: Even
R.O.B.: Slight disadvantage
Samus: Even
Sheik: Slight disadvantage
Snake: Slight disadvantage
Sonic: Even
Toon Link: Slight disadvantage
Wario: Slight disadvantage
Wolf: Slight disadvantage
Yoshi: Even
Zelda: Even
Zero Suit Samus: Slight disadvantage

(Because I put yours up here during the update, you can do a do-over if you wish)

Umby

Bowser: Slight Disadvantage
Captain Falcon: Slight Advantage
Diddy Kong: Slight Disadvantage
Donkey Kong: Slight Disadvantage
Falco: Slight Disadvantage
Fox: Even
Mr. Game & Watch: Major Disadvantage
Ganondorf: Major Advantage
Ice Climbers: Slight Disadvantage
Ike: Even
Jigglypuff: Slight Advantage
King Dedede: Major Disadvantage
Kirby:Slight Disadvantage
Link: Major Advantage
Lucario: Slight Disadvantage
Lucas: Slight Advantage
Luigi: Major Disadvantage
Mario:Slight Advantage
Marth:Slight Advantage
Meta Knight: Slight Advantage
Ness: Slight Advantage
Olimar: Major Disadvantage
Peach: Slight Advantage
Pikachu: Even
Pit: Slight Disadvantage
Pokémon Trainer: Slight Advantage
R.O.B.: Major Disadvantage
Samus: Slight Advantage
Sheik: Even
Snake: Slight Disadvantage
Sonic: Even
Toon Link: Slight Disadvantage
Wario: Major Disadvantage
Wolf:Even
Yoshi: Even
Zelda: Slight Advantage
Zero Suit Samus: Slight Disadvantage

(Because I put yours up here during the update, you can do a do-over if you wish)

Speed

Bowser: Slight Disadvantage
Captain Falcon: Minor Advantage
Diddy Kong: Slight Disadvantage
Donkey Kong: Slight Disadvantage
Falco: Slight Disadvantage
Fox: Slight Disadvantage
Mr. Game & Watch: Major Disadvantage
Ganondorf: Minor Advantage
Ice Climbers: Major Disadvantage
Ike: Even
Jigglypuff: Even
King Dedede: Slight Disadvantage
Kirby: Slight Disadvantage
Link: Minor Advantage
Lucario: Major Disadvantage
Lucas: Even
Luigi: Slight Disadvantage
Mario: Even
Marth: Major Disadvantage
Meta Knight: Slight Disadvantage
Ness: Even
Olimar: Slight Disadvantage
Peach: Slight Disadvantage
Pikachu: Slight Disadvantage
Pit: Slight Disadvantage
Pokémon Trainer: Even
R.O.B.: Slight Disadvantage
Samus: Even
Sheik: Slight Disadvantage
Snake: Slight Disadvantage
Sonic: Even
Toon Link: Slight Disadvantage
Wario: Major Disadvantage
Wolf: Even
Yoshi: Even
Zelda: Even
Zero Suit Samus: Slight Disadvantage

(Because I put yours up here during the update, you can do a do-over if you wish)

Tails

Bowser: Slight Advantage
Captain Falcon: Even
Diddy Kong: Slight Disadvantage
Donkey Kong: Slight Disadvantage
Falco: Minor Disadvantage
Fox: Minor Disadvantage
Mr. Game & Watch: Slight Disadvantage
Ganondorf: Slight Advantage
Ice Climbers: Even
Ike: Even
Jigglypuff: Even
King Dedede: Slight Disadvantage
Kirby: Even
Link: Slight Advantage
Lucario: Minor Disadvantage
Lucas: Slight Disadvantage
Luigi: Slight Disadvantage
Mario: Slight Disadvantage
Marth: Minor Disadvantage
Meta Knight: Minor Disadvantage
Ness: Slight Disadvantage
Olimar: Slight Disadvantage
Peach: Even
Pikachu: Minor Disadvantage
Pit: Even
Pokémon Trainer: Even
R.O.B.: Slight Disadvantage
Samus: Slight Disadvantage
Sheik: Even
Snake: Minor Disadvantage
Sonic: Even
Toon Link: Even
Wario: Minor Disadvantage
Wolf: Minor Disadvantage
Yoshi: Even
Zelda: Even
Zero Suit Samus: Slight Disadvantage

(Because I put yours up here during the update, you can do a do-over if you wish)

Boxob - A.K.A. the epitome of

Bowser: Even
Captain Falcon: Even.
Diddy Kong: minor disadvantage
Donkey Kong: Major disadvantage.
Falco: minor disadvantage
Fox: Slight advantage.
Mr. Game & Watch: Major disadvantage.
Ganondorf: Minor advantage.
Ice Climbers: Major disadvantage.
Ike: Minor advantage.
Jigglypuff: Minor advantage.
King Dedede: minor disadvantage.
Kirby: minor disadvantage.
Link: Even.
Lucario: Major advantage
Lucas: Even
Luigi: Slight disadvantage.
Mario: Even.
Marth: Even
Meta Knight: slight disadvantage.
Ness: Even
Olimar: "It's no use, give up!"
Peach: Slight disadvantage.
Pikachu: Major disadvantage
Pit: Slight disadvantage
Pokémon Trainer: Even.
R.O.B.: slight disadvantage.
Samus: minor advantage.
Sheik: even.
Snake: Slight disadvantage.
Sonic: Even
Toon Link: Slight disadvantage
Wario: Major disadvantage.
Wolf: Slight disadvantage.
Yoshi: Slight advantage.
Zelda: Slight advantage.
Zero Suit Samus: Slight disadvantage.

(Boxob, since your Marth ratio was closer to 5:5 then it was to 55:45, I decided to leave it at even. Please let me know if you want it the other way around. Because I put yours up here during the update, you can do a do-over if you wish)

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Below this line will be a finalized/summed-up version of everybody's tallies, and Sonic's final matchup ratios. How this will be put and figured out is left for a not so distant future date...

: Bowser :
: Captain Falcon :
: Diddy Kong :
: Donkey Kong :
: Falco :
: Fox :
: Mr. Game & Watch :
: Ganondorf :
: Ice Climbers :
: Ike :
: Jigglypuff :
: King Dedede :
: Kirby :
: Link :
: Lucario :
: Lucas :
: Luigi :
: Mario :
: Marth :
: Meta Knight :
: Ness :
: Olimar :
: Peach :
: Pikachu :
: Pit :
: Pokémon Trainer :
: R.O.B. :
: Samus :
: Sheik :
: Snake :
: Sonic :
: Toon Link :
: Wario :
: Wolf :
: Yoshi :
: Zelda :
: Zero Suit Samus :​

 

[JayBee]

Bowser: even
Captain Falcon: slight advantage
Diddy Kong: slight disadvantage
Donkey Kong: slight disadvantage
Falco: slight disadvantage
Fox: even
Mr. Game & Watch: major disadvantage
Ganondorf: major advantage
Ice Climbers: slight disadvantage
Ike: even
Jigglypuff: slight advantage
King Dedede: slight disadvantage
Kirby: even
Link: slight advantage
Lucario: slight disadvantage
Lucas: slight disadvantage
Luigi: slight disadvantage
Mario: even
Marth: major disadvantage
Meta Knight: even
Ness: slight advantage
Olimar: major disadvantage
Peach: slight disadvantage
Pikachu: slight disadvantage
Pit: even
Pokémon Trainer: slight advantage
R.O.B.: slight disadvantage
Samus: slight advantage
Sheik: even
Snake: slight disadvantage
Sonic: steak
Toon Link: slight disadvantage
Wario: slight disadvantage
Wolf: even
Yoshi: even
Zelda: major advantage
Zero Suit Samus: slight disadvantage

i approve of this thread. its a strong indicator of what the general pubilc, sonic mains, and those who are not, thinks about sonic, and how much knowledge is generally know among the public, most importantly for those who do not play as him often or at all.

 

[Kupo Rose]

Bare in mind, I'm a wifi Sonic so if you don't want to put my opinions in then that's okay.

Bowser: Even
Captain Falcon: Minor advantage
Diddy Kong: Even
Donkey Kong: Slight disadvantage
Falco: Slight disadvantage
Fox: Even
Mr. Game & Watch: Major disadvantage
Ganondorf: Minor advantage
Ice Climbers: Slight disadvantage
Ike: Even
Jigglypuff: Minor advantage
King Dedede: Slight advantage
Kirby: Even
Link: Even
Lucario: Major disadvantage
Lucas: Slight disadvantage
Luigi: Major disadvantage
Mario: Even
Marth: Slight disadvantage
Meta Knight: Slight disadvantage
Ness: Slight disadvantage
Olimar: Major disadvantage
Peach: Slight disadvantage
Pikachu: Even
Pit: Slight disadvantage
Pokémon Trainer: Even
R.O.B.: Slight disadvantage
Samus: Even
Sheik: Slight disadvantage
Snake: Slight disadvantage
Sonic: Even
Toon Link: Slight disadvantage
Wario: Slight disadvantage
Wolf: Slight disadvantage
Yoshi: Even
Zelda: Even
Zero Suit Samus: Slight disadvantage


Wow, looking at those I just noticed I seem to have a pessimistic mind lol.

 

[Kinzer]

You are at least observing it from an offline perspective, right? If you are, ignore the next sentence.

I would imagine Olimar and Luigi would be a pain in the *** in the case you tried to do crap on Wi-Fi.

 

[Kupo Rose]

Yes, of course.

 

[Umby]

I really do believe that numerical MU ratios should be accounted for if you're trying to take an actual average, so I'll post those as well:

Bowser: 45:55 - Slight Disadvantage
Captain Falcon: 55:45 - Slight Advantage
Diddy Kong: 40:60 - Slight Disadvantage
Donkey Kong: 45:55 - Slight Disadvantage
Falco: 40:60 - Slight Disadvantage
Fox: 50:50 - Even
Mr. Game & Watch: 35:65 - Major Disadvantage
Ganondorf: 65:35 - Major Advantage
Ice Climbers: 40:60 - Slight Disadvantage
Ike: 50:50 - Even
Jigglypuff: 55:45 - Slight Advantage
King Dedede: 65:35 - Major Disadvantage
Kirby: 45:55 - Slight Disadvantage
Link: 65:35 - Major Advantage
Lucario: 40:60 - Slight Disadvantage
Lucas: 55:45 - Slight Advantage
Luigi: 65:35 - Major Disadvantage
Mario: 60:40 - Slight Advantage
Marth: 40:60 - Slight Advantage
Meta Knight: 40:60 - Slight Advantage
Ness: 55:45 - Slight Advantage
Olimar: 35:65 - Major Disadvantage
Peach: 40:60 - Slight Advantage
Pikachu: 50:50 Even
Pit: 45:55 - Slight Disadvantage
Pokémon Trainer: 55:45 - Slight Advantage
R.O.B.: 35:65 - Major Disadvantage
Samus: 60:40 - Slight Advantage
Sheik: 50:50 - Even
Snake: 40:60 - Slight Disadvantage
Sonic: 50:50 - Even
Toon Link: 45:55 - Slight Disadvantage
Wario: 35:65 - Major Disadvantage
Wolf: 50:50 - Even
Yoshi: 50:50 - Even
Zelda: 60:40 - Slight Advantage
Zero Suit Samus: 45:55 Slight Disadvantage

 

[~TBS~]

I'll try my best.


Bowser: Slight Disadvantage
Captain Falcon: Minor Advantage
Diddy Kong: Slight Disadvantage
Donkey Kong: Slight Disadvantage
Falco: Slight Disadvantage
Fox: Slight Disadvantage
Mr. Game & Watch: Major Disadvantage
Ganondorf: Minor Advantage
Ice Climbers: Major Disadvantage
Ike: Even
Jigglypuff: Even
King Dedede: Slight Disadvantage
Kirby: Slight Disadvantage
Link: Minor Advantage
Lucario: Major Disadvantage
Lucas: Even
Luigi: Slight Disadvantage
Mario: Even
Marth: Major Disadvantage
Meta Knight: Slight Disadvantage
Ness: Even
Olimar: Slight Disadvantage
Peach: Slight Disadvantage
Pikachu: Slight Disadvantage
Pit: Slight Disadvantage
Pokémon Trainer: Even
R.O.B.: Slight Disadvantage
Samus: Even
Sheik: Slight Disadvantage
Snake: Slight Disadvantage
Sonic: Love every second of it. Even
Toon Link: Slight Disadvantage
Wario: Major Disadvantage
Wolf: Even
Yoshi: Even
Zelda: Even
Zero Suit Samus: Slight Disadvantage

god, im gonna stick out like a sore thumb. btw, all minor advantages for me are 55:45, no higher than that.

 

[Kinzer]

I really do believe that numerical MU ratios should be accounted for if you're trying to take an actual average

The problem with using matchup ratios is that there isn't one unified system that people can refer to and follow.

To name a couple of examples, everybody knows a 50-50 matchup (whether or not it is a ditto) as a matchup that no side has one trait that is overpowering or underpowering to exploit or be exploited. Both characters will have an equal chance of winning, and it's anybody's guess who will win.

Matchups 55-45 are (mostly) assumed to be almost an even matchup; why a conclusion like this would be drawn is to assume that on character has one thing that makes it negligibly in their favor... for example, some have argued Mario's Fireballs the one tool to make the Sonic/Mario MUr in the opponent's favor (whether this is true or not can be debated, but that's not the point).

Matchups 6-4 is when a character either has a lot of subtle traits that are better than another character, or one/few very obvious (and usually defining) trait(s) that makes it into their favor. It is not however, to be a lost cause, as the disadvantaged character still has enough tools to get around weaknesses or lack of good traits in their character.

Now it gets fuzzy past this point. Matchups 65-35 are rare within respective tiers, but are understood to be the borderline realm of possibility, and "CP or lose". A character who is given the smaller number still has a small chance to claim victory, assuming that the disadvantaged character plays with little or no mistake, and at the top of the character's metagame. Whether or not the character with the advantage has to make mistakes is up for debate (and beyond my knowledge of whether or not human error is considered a factor).

After this, it's generally accepted that we have a counterpick or lose scenario. Matchups that rank 7-3 (and more) means that the disadvantaged character has too much going against them and that even at perfect play they cannot win, even if the other character makes slips up here and there.

Now the problem with this is that this is MY opinion on what matchup ratios are. There is nothing official you can quote to tell me that this isn't the way we should go by another system. There are people out there that for each ratio have different definitions of what is. There may be somebody out there that you can ask "what is a 99-1 matchup?" and they may tell you a couple of things (though the most frequent answer will obviously be that the character with the 1 will not win, even once, because it is too infrequent to even account for), whereas you can have other people tell you that a character who has a 55-45 MU against another character will always win because one trait should be enough to decide the matchup and that human error was the cause of a lose.

I know those are extreme examples, but this is why I decided not to use matchup ratios. Words like "minor advantage" translate easier to just "meh, okay, one character has a small advantage for 'this' reason, nothing that is set in stone."

Regardless, I thank you for going through the trouble. Keep these submissions coming people!

 

[sonictailslink]

Even though I haven't done too many match up with most of the characters, I'll try my best

Bowser: Slight Advantage
Captain Falcon: Even
Diddy Kong: Slight Disadvantage
Donkey Kong: Slight Disadvantage
Falco: Minor Disadvantage
Fox: Minor Disadvantage
Mr. Game & Watch: Slight Disadvantage
Ganondorf: Slight Advantage
Ice Climbers: Even
Ike: Even
Jigglypuff: Even
King Dedede: Slight Disadvantage
Kirby: Even
Link: Slight Advantage
Lucario: Minor Disadvantage
Lucas: Slight Disadvantage
Luigi: Slight Disadvantage
Mario: Slight Disadvantage
Marth: Minor Disadvantage
Meta Knight: Minor Disadvantage
Ness: Slight Disadvantage
Olimar: Slight Disadvantage
Peach: Even
Pikachu: Minor Disadvantage
Pit: Even
Pokémon Trainer: Even
R.O.B.: Slight Disadvantage
Samus: Slight Disadvantage
Sheik: Even
Snake: Minor Disadvantage
Sonic: Love these matches - Even
Toon Link: Even
Wario: Minor Disadvantage
Wolf: Minor Disadvantage
Yoshi: Even
Zelda: Even
Zero Suit Samus: Slight Disadvantage

Sorry if I don't know my match ups too well...I'm still in training with Sonic.

 

[Boxob.]

Bowser: Even
Captain Falcon: Even.
Diddy Kong: minor disadvantage
Donkey Kong: Major disadvantage.
Falco: minor disadvantage
Fox: Slight advantage. although, fox doesn't have to work as hard.
Mr. Game & Watch: Major disadvantage.
Ganondorf: Minor advantage.
Ice Climbers: Major disadvantage.
Ike: Minor advantage.
Jigglypuff: Minor advantage.
King Dedede: minor disadvantage.
Kirby: minor disadvantage.
Link: Even.
Lucario: 67.5/32.5, Sonic.
Lucas: Even
Luigi: Slight disadvantage.
Mario: Even.
Marth: 51:49, Sonic.
Meta Knight: slight disadvantage.
Ness: Evem
Olimar: I'VE GOT YOU NOW, SONIC! ( 80:20, olimar)
Peach: Slight disadvantage.
Pikachu: 65:35, pika.
Pit:60:40, pit.
Pokémon Trainer: Even.
R.O.B.: slight disadvantage.
Samus: minor advantage.
Sheik: even.
Snake: Slight disadvantage.
Sonic: 93:7, SonicMaster5
Toon Link:60:40, TL.
Wario: Major disadvantage.
Wolf: Slight disadvantage.
Yoshi: Slight advantage.
Zelda: Slight advantage.
Zero Suit Samus:Slight disadvantage.

So yeah, sonic's pretty good lol.

 

[BSP]

You are at least observing it from an offline perspective, right? If you are, ignore the next sentence.

I would imagine Olimar and Luigi would be a pain in the *** in the case you tried to do crap on Wi-Fi.

So, if my only real experience comes from online, should i not even bother? I know it makes a difference, not too sure how big though.

 

[Camalange]

imo, we should heavily base this off of the players who go to irl tournaments, power rank/place in their area, and go OoS every now and then.

 

[Browny]

meh screw it, I had my list but what do I know, Aus sucks lol

 

[Umby]

Not trying to argue with you, Kinzer, but I seem to be missing the point from your last post, considering what you explained made it seem (at least to me) as if numerical ratios (or your terminology + numerical ratios) help better pinpoint the overall situation of a MU.

 

[Kinzer]

So, if my only real experience comes from online, should i not even bother? I know it makes a difference, not too sure how big though.

I'll value your opinion as much as the next guys. Don't feel warded off just because you're you.

However.

imo, we should heavily base this off of the players who go to irl tournaments, power rank/place in their area, and go OoS every now and then.

Camalange, mah boi, I understand that people who are actually competent Sonic players will have better opinions, but I still can't turn down people.

Let's talk Malcolm for example. We all know he plays Wario now, but was once a great Sonic player. If he were to come help with this project, what am I suppose to do. Assume that his knowledge on Sonic is still up-to-date even if he's retired, or should I turn him down just because I can't confirm whether or not he may still be qualified to do this kind of thing.

Please note: I am no attacking Malcolm's knowledge, I am just saying that I can't find a criteria to use, so it would be better if I just took anybody's opinion as long as they're willing to cooperate. If people don't post, then I won't count their opinions, simple as that.

Though please tell me if I'm doing something wrong by going with this philosophy.

Edit: DJ Please don't do that. Just because the people aroudn you aren't quite as skilled doesn't mean your judgement is impaired. I'll trust you.

@ Umby - I didn't want you to get that impression. I was trying to say it makes it more complicated because everybody has a different opinion on what matchup ratios mean individually. But I'll hold off on this, since you seem to understand where I'm trying to go with this.

@ Boxob - I don't quite understand some of your ratios, so I'll just go ahead and as to confirm. In some of your ratios, when you name a character, are you saying that it is the specified characters favor?

 

[BSP]

I'll value your opinion as much as the next guys. Don't feel warded off just because you're you.

However.



Camalange, mah boi, I understand that people who are actually competent Sonic players will have better opinions, but I still can't turn down people.

Let's talk Malcolm for example. We all know he plays Wario now, but was once a great Sonic player. If he were to come help with this project, what am I suppose to do. Assume that his knowledge on Sonic is still up-to-date even if he's retired, or should I turn him down just because I can't confirm whether or not he may still be qualified to do this kind of thing.

Please note: I am no attacking Malcolm's knowledge, I am just saying that I can't find a criteria to use, so it would be better if I just took anybody's opinion as long as they're willing to cooperate. If people don't post, then I won't count their opinions, simple as that.

Though please tell me if I'm doing something wrong by going with this philosophy.

Edit: DJ Please don't do that. Just because the people aroudn you aren't quite as skilled doesn't mean your judgement is impaired. I'll trust you.

@ Umby - I didn't want you to get that impression. I was trying to say it makes it more complicated because everybody has a different opinion on what matchup ratios mean individually. But I'll hold off on this, since you seem to understand where I'm trying to go with this.

@ Boxob - I don't quite understand some of your ratios, so I'll just go ahead and as to confirm. In some of your ratios, when you name a character, are you saying that it is the specified characters favor?

Thanks, but i think Camalange is right. I don't want to skew the averages in the wrong way anyway, don't worry about it.

 

[Camalange]

naaaah, it's still good to see what the casuals think.


all i'm sayin is that for the final decision, the opinions of notable players should be heavily weighted.

please, don't feel afraid to shair your opinions, it's a forum :D I won't kill you, promise.

 

[Kinzer]

Well, I'm glad we see the same end. :D

Only now if I am to have a different measure for other people, how will I be able to check people for such a qualification, and just as important, exactly how much more heavily should their opinions be accounted for? Quite the burden, I'll tell you...

 

[Chis]

Does it really matter? It's only a poll, not the official standing of the match up ratio or something.

 

[Kinzer]

Well if you want to be nitpicky, Nintendo should be the ones who have the last say on what is, since they made this game.

Uhm, It's really hard to say why anybody would want to do this. I don't see the harm in doing it though, the matchup thread is just this, but with LOTSA MOAR! arguing and all that jazz you see in debate clubs.

 

[Boxob.]

Kinzer: Yes.

 

[Kinzer]

Alright, the OP has been updated with a list of peoples' lists, and a preview of what the finalized list would look like once I start to add up the tally marks...

I actually plan on putting a value for every title a matchup is given. It would look like:

Minor dis/advantages = +/-1 tally point
Major dis/advantages = +/-2 tally points
It's no use, give up!"/"Get a load of this!" = +/-3 tally points
Even = -1 tally point against the lead.

That's what I intend on doing it... I'll add them all up, and divide them by the amount of people I've counted so far. This would be a mean number, yes? Anyway, I believe there may be a (couple of?) problem(s) with this.

Should I change an even matchup to have a different value? If so, what?

A Sonic mirror match, is in no question that it is an even matchup, however to consistency's sake, how exactly do I count the even tallies? Do I leave it as 0 since nobody has yet to (seriously) say something like Sonic's slight favor(...), which will make it neutral? Seems fair to me I believe, since 0 divided by 7 is 0. Except it won't work with other characters because well... you know... they're not Sonic... Err... trying to explain the dilemma the best I can is hard, I hope somebody understands what I'm trying to say and can either help me out on this, or put it in a better way... anyway moving on...

Now you have somebody like Falco, who by consensus of the community is agreed to be slightly in Falco's favor (6-4), with this list so far...:

Kinzer

Bowser: Even
Captain Falcon: Minor advantage
Diddy Kong: Even
Donkey Kong: Minor disadvantage
Falco: Minor disadvantage
Fox: Even
Mr. Game & Watch: Major disadvantage
Ganondorf: Minor advantage
Ice Climbers: Minor disadvantage
Ike: Even
Jigglypuff: Minor advantage
King Dedede: Minor disadvantage
Kirby: Even
Link: Minor advantage
Lucario: Major disadvantage
Lucas: Minor advantage
Luigi: Even
Mario: Even
Marth: Minor disadvantage
Meta Knight: Minor disadvantage
Ness: Even
Olimar: Minor disadvantage
Peach: Minor disadvantage
Pikachu: Minor disadvantage
Pit: Even
Pokémon Trainer: Even
R.O.B.: Minor disadvantage
Samus: Even
Sheik: Even
Snake: Minor disadvantage
Sonic: Even
Toon Link: Minor disadvantage
Wario: Minor disadvantage
Wolf: Even
Yoshi: Even
Zelda: Minor advantage
Zero Suit Samus: Even

Kojin

Bowser: even
Captain Falcon: slight advantage
Diddy Kong: slight disadvantage
Donkey Kong: slight disadvantage
Falco: slight disadvantage
Fox: even
Mr. Game & Watch: major disadvantage
Ganondorf: major advantage
Ice Climbers: slight disadvantage
Ike: even
Jigglypuff: slight advantage
King Dedede: slight disadvantage
Kirby: even
Link: slight advantage
Lucario: slight disadvantage
Lucas: slight disadvantage
Luigi: slight disadvantage
Mario: even
Marth: major disadvantage
Meta Knight: even
Ness: slight advantage
Olimar: major disadvantage
Peach: slight disadvantage
Pikachu: slight disadvantage
Pit: even
Pokémon Trainer: slight advantage
R.O.B.: slight disadvantage
Samus: slight advantage
Sheik: even
Snake: slight disadvantage
Sonic: steak
Toon Link: slight disadvantage
Wario: slight disadvantage
Wolf: even
Yoshi: even
Zelda: major advantage
Zero Suit Samus: slight disadvantage

Kupo

Bowser: Even
Captain Falcon: Minor advantage
Diddy Kong: Even
Donkey Kong: Slight disadvantage
Falco: Slight disadvantage
Fox: Even
Mr. Game & Watch: Major disadvantage
Ganondorf: Minor advantage
Ice Climbers: Slight disadvantage
Ike: Even
Jigglypuff: Minor advantage
King Dedede: Slight advantage
Kirby: Even
Link: Even
Lucario: Major disadvantage
Lucas: Slight disadvantage
Luigi: Major disadvantage
Mario: Even
Marth: Slight disadvantage
Meta Knight: Slight disadvantage
Ness: Slight disadvantage
Olimar: Major disadvantage
Peach: Slight disadvantage
Pikachu: Even
Pit: Slight disadvantage
Pokémon Trainer: Even
R.O.B.: Slight disadvantage
Samus: Even
Sheik: Slight disadvantage
Snake: Slight disadvantage
Sonic: Even
Toon Link: Slight disadvantage
Wario: Slight disadvantage
Wolf: Slight disadvantage
Yoshi: Even
Zelda: Even
Zero Suit Samus: Slight disadvantage

Umby

Bowser: Slight Disadvantage
Captain Falcon: Slight Advantage
Diddy Kong: Slight Disadvantage
Donkey Kong: Slight Disadvantage
Falco: Slight Disadvantage
Fox: Even
Mr. Game & Watch: Major Disadvantage
Ganondorf: Major Advantage
Ice Climbers: Slight Disadvantage
Ike: Even
Jigglypuff: Slight Advantage
King Dedede: Major Disadvantage
Kirby:Slight Disadvantage
Link: Major Advantage
Lucario: Slight Disadvantage
Lucas: Slight Advantage
Luigi: Major Disadvantage
Mario:Slight Advantage
Marth:Slight Advantage
Meta Knight: Slight Advantage
Ness: Slight Advantage
Olimar: Major Disadvantage
Peach: Slight Advantage
Pikachu: Even
Pit: Slight Disadvantage
Pokémon Trainer: Slight Advantage
R.O.B.: Major Disadvantage
Samus: Slight Advantage
Sheik: Even
Snake: Slight Disadvantage
Sonic: Even
Toon Link: Slight Disadvantage
Wario: Major Disadvantage
Wolf:Even
Yoshi: Even
Zelda: Slight Advantage
Zero Suit Samus: Slight Disadvantage

Speed

Bowser: Slight Disadvantage
Captain Falcon: Minor Advantage
Diddy Kong: Slight Disadvantage
Donkey Kong: Slight Disadvantage
Falco: Slight Disadvantage
Fox: Slight Disadvantage
Mr. Game & Watch: Major Disadvantage
Ganondorf: Minor Advantage
Ice Climbers: Major Disadvantage
Ike: Even
Jigglypuff: Even
King Dedede: Slight Disadvantage
Kirby: Slight Disadvantage
Link: Minor Advantage
Lucario: Major Disadvantage
Lucas: Even
Luigi: Slight Disadvantage
Mario: Even
Marth: Major Disadvantage
Meta Knight: Slight Disadvantage
Ness: Even
Olimar: Slight Disadvantage
Peach: Slight Disadvantage
Pikachu: Slight Disadvantage
Pit: Slight Disadvantage
Pokémon Trainer: Even
R.O.B.: Slight Disadvantage
Samus: Even
Sheik: Slight Disadvantage
Snake: Slight Disadvantage
Sonic: Even
Toon Link: Slight Disadvantage
Wario: Major Disadvantage
Wolf: Even
Yoshi: Even
Zelda: Even
Zero Suit Samus: Slight Disadvantage

Tails

Bowser: Slight Advantage
Captain Falcon: Even
Diddy Kong: Slight Disadvantage
Donkey Kong: Slight Disadvantage
Falco: Minor Disadvantage
Fox: Minor Disadvantage
Mr. Game & Watch: Slight Disadvantage
Ganondorf: Slight Advantage
Ice Climbers: Even
Ike: Even
Jigglypuff: Even
King Dedede: Slight Disadvantage
Kirby: Even
Link: Slight Advantage
Lucario: Minor Disadvantage
Lucas: Slight Disadvantage
Luigi: Slight Disadvantage
Mario: Slight Disadvantage
Marth: Minor Disadvantage
Meta Knight: Minor Disadvantage
Ness: Slight Disadvantage
Olimar: Slight Disadvantage
Peach: Even
Pikachu: Minor Disadvantage
Pit: Even
Pokémon Trainer: Even
R.O.B.: Slight Disadvantage
Samus: Slight Disadvantage
Sheik: Even
Snake: Minor Disadvantage
Sonic: Even
Toon Link: Even
Wario: Minor Disadvantage
Wolf: Minor Disadvantage
Yoshi: Even
Zelda: Even
Zero Suit Samus: Slight Disadvantage

Boxob

Bowser: Even
Captain Falcon: Even.
Diddy Kong: minor disadvantage
Donkey Kong: Major disadvantage.
Falco: minor disadvantage
Fox: Slight advantage.
Mr. Game & Watch: Major disadvantage.
Ganondorf: Minor advantage.
Ice Climbers: Major disadvantage.
Ike: Minor advantage.
Jigglypuff: Minor advantage.
King Dedede: minor disadvantage.
Kirby: minor disadvantage.
Link: Even.
Lucario: Major advantage
Lucas: Even
Luigi: Slight disadvantage.
Mario: Even.
Marth: Even
Meta Knight: slight disadvantage.
Ness: Even
Olimar: "It's no use, give up!"
Peach: Slight disadvantage.
Pikachu: Major disadvantage
Pit: Slight disadvantage
Pokémon Trainer: Even.
R.O.B.: slight disadvantage.
Samus: minor advantage.
Sheik: even.
Snake: Slight disadvantage.
Sonic: Even
Toon Link: Slight disadvantage
Wario: Major disadvantage.
Wolf: Slight disadvantage.
Yoshi: Slight advantage.
Zelda: Slight advantage.
Zero Suit Samus: Slight disadvantage.

Falco has -7 total points on hi-

Actually I should take this time to tell you that the smaller the number, the greater the advantage is in favor of Sonic's opponent. The bigger the number is, the greater the advantage is in favor of Sonic

-Anyway, Falco currently has -7 towards him. Dividing it by 7 (the amount of people that voted), we're left with -1. In this case, it would be Falco's slight favor. With ratios it translates to 6-4 by my system of defining matchup ratios (again, this is why I didn't want YOU as the petitioners to use specific matchup ratios). Seems reasonable.

Now if we had something like -7.5, we'd end up with (according to my calculator) 1.07 estimated, which means that the number is closer to 65-35 than it is 55-45, but can be still be considered a 6-4 matchup/ slight disadvantage because the number-ratio-thingimajig is closer to 6-4 than either 65-35 or 55-45. Estimation FTW!

Alright, cool, now that means that we have numbers that translate into other numbers/ratios. If these equations are proportional, that must mean that we have a formula/chart thing going on to work with.

By using these as guidelines, I will be able to come to a gross estimate in the end. To name one example, we have a character that has a mean of .37. .37 is .12 points from .25, whereas counting to .5 is .13 points away, meaning that it is closer to being .25, or a matchup that directly translates to being 52.5-47.5 in favor of Sonic (it's a positive value).

I hope that other people will be able to understand my math in case that I am wrong and my formula needs to be challenged, or I made a mistake and it needs to be corrected. For simplicity's sake, here's the full formula in an easier to read version. I will assume you know how to estimate, and when you see the final mean number, you will be able to tell/confirm for yourself that a matchup ratio is what it is/ what you see it as...

0 = 5-5 = An even matchup.

.25/-.25 = 52.5-47.5 and vice-versa = A borderline even to a very slight dis/advantaged matchup.
.5/-.5 = 55-45 and vice-versa = A very slight dis/advantaged matchup.
.75/-.75 = 57.5-42.5 and vice-versa = A borderline very slight dis/advantage to a slight dis/advantaged matchup.
1/-1 = 6-4 and vice-versa = A slight dis/advantaged matchup.

1.25/-1.25 = 62.5-37.5 and vice-versa = A borderline slight dis/advantage to a minor major dis/advantaged matchup.
1.5/-1.5 = 65-35 and vice versa = A minor major dis/advantaged matchup.
1.75/-1.75 = 67.5-32.5 and vice-versa = A borderline minor major dis/advantage to a major dis/advantaged matchup.
2/-2 = 7-3 and vice-versa = A major dis/advantaged matchup.

2.25/-2.25 = 72.5-27.5 = A borderline major dis/advantage to a matchup that is either "It's no use, give up!" or "Get a load of this!"
Any numbers greater than or equal to 2.5 or less than or equal to -2.5 = 75-25 = A matchup that is equal to or greater than the degree of "It's no use, give up!" or "Get a load of this!"

Credit goes to Kitamerby for showing me this video that kept me calm when figuring out all these mathematical properties. Even though you play my character's most hated matchup, I'm lucky to have you to call a friend.

I could've gone insane going through all this BS had I not got straight As/Bs since 6th grade. I don't expect everybody to understand the process, this is just so that none of my work is questioned / classified to the public and that this project can reach a fair and just goal/conclusion. Don't worry your pretty little head if you can't comprehend this, you let me do all the hard work, you just keep sending this submissions in and I'll work my magic on them. ^_^

 

[Isatis]

Bowser: Even
Captain Falcon: Minor advantage
Diddy Kong: Minor disadvantage
Donkey Kong: Minor disadvantage
Falco: Minor disadvantage
Fox: Minor disadvantage
Mr. Game & Watch: Major disadvantage
Ganondorf: Minor advantage
Ice Climbers: Major disadvantage
Ike: Even
Jigglypuff: Minor advantage
King Dedede: Minor disadvantage
Kirby: Minor disadvantage
Link: Minor advantage
Lucario: Major disadvantage
Lucas: Even
Luigi: Minor disadvantage
Mario: Even
Marth: Major disadvantage
Meta Knight: Minor disadvantage
Ness: Minor disadvantage
Olimar: Minor disadvantage
Peach: Minor disadvantage
Pikachu: Minor disadvantage
Pit: Even
Pokémon Trainer: Even
R.O.B.: Minor disadvantage
Samus: Even
Sheik: Even
Snake: Minor disadvantage
Sonic: Even
Toon Link: Minor disadvantage
Wario: Minor disadvantage
Wolf: Minor disadvantage
Yoshi: Even
Zelda: Minor advantage
Zero Suit Samus: Minor disadvantage

 

[Camalange]

Bowser: Even
Captain Falcon: Even
Diddy Kong: Minor disadvantage
Donkey Kong: Minor disadvantage
Falco: Minor disadvantage
Fox: Even
Mr. Game & Watch: Major disadvantage
Ganondorf: Minor advantage
Ice Climbers: Major disadvantage
Ike: Even
Jigglypuff: Minor advantage
King Dedede: Minor disadvantage
Kirby: Minor disadvantage
Link: Minor advantage
Lucario: Major disadvantage
Lucas: Minor advantage
Luigi: Minor disadvantage
Mario: Even
Marth: Even
Meta Knight: Minor disadvantage
Ness: Minor disadvantage
Olimar: Major disadvantage
Peach: Minor disadvantage
Pikachu: Minor disadvantage
Pit: Minor disadvantage
Pokémon Trainer: Even
R.O.B.: Major disadvantage
Samus: Minor advantage
Sheik: Even
Snake: Major disadvantage
Sonic: Even
Toon Link: Major disadvantage
Wario: Major disadvantage
Wolf: Minor disadvantage
Yoshi: Minor disadvantage
Zelda: Minor advantage
Zero Suit Samus: Even


I tried my best.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I'm in the same boat as SoniKupo, in that I'm a wi-fi scrub. But I'll try to give this in my best judgment in offline play.

Bowser: Minor disadvantage
Captain Falcon: Minor advantage
Diddy Kong: Even
Donkey Kong: Minor disadvantage
Falco: Minor disadvantage
Fox: Even
Mr. Game & Watch: Minor disadvantage
Ganondorf: Minor advantage
Ice Climbers: Minor disadvantage
Ike: Minor advantage
Jigglypuff: Minor advantage
King Dedede: Even
Kirby: Even
Link: Even
Lucario: Minor disadvantage
Lucas: Even
Luigi: Even
Mario: Even
Marth: Minor disadvantage
Meta Knight: Minor disadvantage
Ness: Even
Olimar: Minor disadvantage
Peach: Minor disadvantage
Pikachu: Even
Pit: Even
Pokémon Trainer: Minor advantage
R.O.B.: Major disadvantage
Samus: Even
Sheik: Even
Snake: Minor disadvantage
Sonic: Metal Sonic
Toon Link: Minor disadvantage
Wario: Minor disadvantage
Wolf: Even
Yoshi: Even
Zelda: Even
Zero Suit Samus: Minor disadvantage

 

[Trent]

Bowser: Even
Captain Falcon: Minor Advantage
Diddy Kong: Minor Disadvantage
Donkey Kong: Minor Disadvantage
Falco: Minor Disadvantage
Fox: Even
Mr. Game & Watch: Major Disadvantage
Ganondorf: Minor Advantage
Ice Climbers: Minor Disadvantage
Ike: Minor Advantage
Jigglypuff: Minor Advantage
King Dedede: Minor Disadvantage
Kirby: Minor Disadvantage
Link: Minor Advantage
Lucario: Major Disadvantage
Lucas: Minor Advantage
Luigi: Minor Disadvantage
Mario: Even
Marth: Major Disadvantage
Meta Knight: Minor Disadvantage
Ness: Minor Advantage
Olimar: Major Disadvantage
Peach: Minor Disadvantage
Pikachu: Minor Disadvantage
Pit: Even
Pokémon Trainer: Even
R.O.B.: Minor Disadvantage
Samus: Even
Sheik: Even
Snake: Minor Disadvantage
Sonic: I found you, Faker!
Toon Link: Minor Disadvantage
Wario: Major Disadvantage
Wolf: Minor Disadvantage
Yoshi: Even
Zelda: Minor Advantage
Zero Suit Samus: Even

 

[ShadoFiend]

As an highly expierenced Sonic player. Through much thought I have made a list. My calculations are never wrong

: Bowser : High Disadvantage
: Captain Falcon : High Disadvantage
: Diddy Kong : High Disadvantage
: Donkey Kong : High Disadvantage
: Falco : High Disadvantage
: Fox : High Disadvantage
: Mr. Game & Watch :High Disadvantage
: Ganondorf : High Disadvantage
: Ice Climbers : High Disadvantage
: Ike : High Disadvantage
: Jigglypuff : High Disadvantage
: King Dedede : High Disadvantage
: Kirby :High Disadvantage
: Link : High Disadvantage
: Lucario : High Disadvantage
: Lucas : High Disadvantage
: Luigi :High Disadvantage
: Mario : High Disadvantage
: Marth : High Disadvantage
: Meta Knight : High Disadvantage
: Ness : High Disadvantage
: Olimar : High Disadvantage
: Peach : High Disadvantage
: Pikachu : High Disadvantage
: Pit : High Disadvantage
: Pokémon Trainer : High Disadvantage
: R.O.B. : High Disadvantage
: Samus : High Disadvantage
: Sheik : High Disadvantage
: Snake : High Disadvantage
: Sonic : High Disadvantage
: Toon Link : High Disadvantage
: Wario : High Disadvantage
: Wolf : High Disadvantage
: Yoshi : High Disadvantage
: Zelda : High Disadvantage
: Zero Suit Samus : High Disadvantage
: Scourge : Higher than high Disadvantage

 

[The BlackChrimson]

Echo

Bowser: moderate/major advantage
Captain Falcon: slight advantage
Diddy Kong: slight disadvantage
Donkey Kong: slight/moderate advantage
Falco: slight/moderate advantage
Fox: slight/moderate advantage
Mr. Game & Watch: even
Ganondorf: even
Ice Climbers: even
Ike: major advantage/Get aloadof this!!
Jigglypuff: even/slight disadvantage
King Dedede: slight advantage
Kirby: even/slight advantage
Link: slight advantage
Lucario: even
Lucas: even
Luigi: slight disadvantage
Mario: moderate advantage
Marth:even/slight advantage
Meta Knight: even/moderate disadvantage
Ness: even
Olimar: moderate advantage/Get a load of this!! (stage spiking like amo-fo)
Peach: even/moderate disadvantage
Pikachu: slight disadvantage
Pit: even (veries of player)
Pokémon Trainer: slight advantage
R.O.B.: slight advantage
Samus: moderate advantage
Sheik: even
Snake: even/slight disadvantage
Sonic: (??? I'm the only Sonic in my state)
Toon Link: moderate disadvantage
Wario: slight advantage
Wolf: even
Yoshi: even/slight advantage
Zelda: major disadvantage
Zero Suit Samus: even (???)

On several characters, even is the typicalresultbecause ittypicaly verieson the player. For example,though Capt. Falcon wasn't on the "evens" listing, I can beat an average Falcon like nothing happened, but it truly dependson the skill the player has, andhow they manuver. Ikeand Olimar are on the 'get aload of this!!' because ike and Olimar share a dangerous weakness to me: Gimpy. Simply remove them from the stage, preferablya down throw, and be sure to take their second jumps. Ike can be funny, becausenomatter their skill degree, they've all fallen to gimpy of the mighty sweet spot in Sonic's Dair. Olimar can fall the same, but he typuically diesfrom me by stage spiking; his teather recovery is a perfect set-up. The teather recovery characters I have an advantage on ebcauseof the stage spiking possibilities. (muhahaw) Likeis heavy, and can be taken out, if done proporly. Toon Link, however, has much priority, and therefor, I have serious issues with him. On the other hand, it depends on how the player recovers...since Toon Link is on the teather list.
Sonic has adisturbingly high amount of anti-projectile.explosive priority, so I can rip through Samus' assaultslike nothing, so I can easily rush her. Snake is dangerous, due to his tactical type and grappleing nature. His traps are a deadly bonus. Jiggs is another story, becauseof her top air priority...nuff said. Mario, like Ike, has poor recovery, and one good strike from gimpy-kick (dair sweet spot) after his double jump can send Mario packing. Louigi is tough since he slips all around like a bar of soap, so getting ahold of him is a real pain.

I'd say by looking at Kojin's tech lab, I'm somewhat of a cross betwqeen Grappleing and Punish type of Sonic. My skill on characters truly depends on the player, as opposed to anything else. There are few charactersI've ever played against fully, so I'm unsureof themand how I'd perform against them...

This is a composition on how I perform against characters; not by anything else. ^^;

 

[Aehetag]

Here's something you could do: instead of adding up positive and negative values, averaging them, then translating them to percentages, assign a win percent value to each category.
As a side note, making the "get a load of this"/"give up" categories have +3/-3 on your scale has them count as 100-0 and 0-100 scenarios. The upper and lower bounds of the scale are +3 and -3 respectively, which are intended to mean 75-25 and 25-75, but later you have +2.5 and -2.5 as meaning 75-25 and 25-75.
Any way back to my proposal...
So:
Even = 50
Very Minor Advantage = 55
Very Minor Disadvantage = 45
Minor Advantage = 60
Minor Disadvantage = 40
Major Advantage = 65
Major Disadvantage = 35
Very Major Advantage = 70
Very Major Disadvantage = 30
"Get a load of this!" = 75
"It's no use, give up!" = 25

Assigning these values and then averaging will give you an average win percentage, which you can then round to the nearest category if you wish.
This way, you don't have to do an extra step of calculation and it preserves the meaning of each tally.
Let me know what you think and/or if you need any other help, seeing as I'm a math major in college

 

[Camalange]

i agree with shado.

can we just use that one?

 

[Kinzer]

Post.

Please tell me you aren't being serious... I'm trying to make something out of this project. I accepted Boxob's post (even though clearly he's trolling on some things like Sonic having a Major advantage on Lucario because the beauty of this project is that if there are enough posts against Boxob, it won't hold much relevance for long... well either that, or he knows something about the matchup that nobody else does.) just because I am way too nice for my own good... I also believe that even though Boxob may have some... extreme opinions on some matchups, he actually tried his best to contribute.

If I keep getting too much "sillies" however, I WILL have to sadly do some moderating that could be oh so very easily avoided, I don't have anything against people, but I need to keep the integrity of this project.

This is a composition on how I perform against characters; not by anything else. ^^;

One problem about this, is that an opinion on a matchup can be much different than how the real thing goes. For example, I LOVE fighting Mr. Game & Watch because a lot of people think that they can steamroll me just because he's a "Sonic counter." How I play the matchup doesn't change the fact that I acknowledge that in perfect play, the matchup is no walk in the park.

If you feel like re-doing the list, I'll let you, knowing that I want you to tell me what you THINK the matchup is between Sonic and a character, not how you PLAY the matchup.

Besides that, if we were to use this same logic, I have an even score with Lucario, which means I should put the matchup as even, when clearly that's not the case... except for Boxob, because again I'm going to give him the benefit of doubt, and maybe one day he'll teach me his secret. All hail

Here's something you could do: instead of adding up positive and negative values, averaging them, then translating them to percentages, assign a win percent value to each category.

As a side note, making the "get a load of this"/"give up" categories have +3/-3 on your scale has them count as 100-0 and 0-100 scenarios. The upper and lower bounds of the scale are +3 and -3 respectively, which are intended to mean 75-25 and 25-75, but later you have +2.5 and -2.5 as meaning 75-25 and 25-75.

Any way back to my proposal...
So:
Even = 50
Very Minor Advantage = 55
Very Minor Disadvantage = 45
Minor Advantage = 60
Minor Disadvantage = 40
Major Advantage = 65
Major Disadvantage = 35
Very Major Advantage = 70
Very Major Disadvantage = 30
"Get a load of this!" = 75
"It's no use, give up!" = 25

Assigning these values and then averaging will give you an average win percentage, which you can then round to the nearest category if you wish.
This way, you don't have to do an extra step of calculation and it preserves the meaning of each tally.
Let me know what you think and/or if you need any other help, seeing as I'm a math major in college

Assign win %s to them?

Ah, not just inconsistency fail, but incorrect interpreted message fail too. I see the problem, but right now I'm not exactly sure how to find values that translate to ratios between 75-25 and 100-0 and vice-versa. I just assumed infinitive of values that are greater than or equal to 3 and less than or equal to -3. Although I really don't want to have to go through the work; by the majority of the smash community, matchups assigned with ratios 75-25 and more are already "counterpick or lose" scenarios, which aren't TOO different from the actual 100-0 scenario (although I know it is wrong, but nobody really cares about it..).

This proposal is fine... it's just I'd rather not have to have people that have already sent submissions do it again. I don't mind having to do some things again, but I also understand not everybody is me and don't even want to go through the effort to do things once... If I have people send in yet another submission on my failure, I'm too fearful that it will be the straw that breaks the camal's back... Although this isn't exactly a mathematical problem, but it is just as much of a "mathematician's block" nevertheless.

You said it yourself, although it may mean work on my part by having to do some extra steps, can I still end up the same final answer regardless? That is my major concern.

Many thanks for your time, you don't know how much I appreciate this.

@Calamange - No, we can't. Now get back in the kitchen and make me a sammich.

You too Malcolm. This also goes for all you other n****s, especially you KID.

 

[MalcolmM]

As an highly expierenced Sonic player. Through much thought I have made a list. My calculations are never wrong

: Bowser : High Disadvantage
: Captain Falcon : High Disadvantage
: Diddy Kong : High Disadvantage
: Donkey Kong : High Disadvantage
: Falco : High Disadvantage
: Fox : High Disadvantage
: Mr. Game & Watch :High Disadvantage
: Ganondorf : High Disadvantage
: Ice Climbers : High Disadvantage
: Ike : High Disadvantage
: Jigglypuff : High Disadvantage
: King Dedede : High Disadvantage
: Kirby :High Disadvantage
: Link : High Disadvantage
: Lucario : High Disadvantage
: Lucas : High Disadvantage
: Luigi :High Disadvantage
: Mario : High Disadvantage
: Marth : High Disadvantage
: Meta Knight : High Disadvantage
: Ness : High Disadvantage
: Olimar : High Disadvantage
: Peach : High Disadvantage
: Pikachu : High Disadvantage
: Pit : High Disadvantage
: Pokémon Trainer : High Disadvantage
: R.O.B. : High Disadvantage
: Samus : High Disadvantage
: Sheik : High Disadvantage
: Snake : High Disadvantage
: Sonic : High Disadvantage
: Toon Link : High Disadvantage
: Wario : High Disadvantage
: Wolf : High Disadvantage
: Yoshi : High Disadvantage
: Zelda : High Disadvantage
: Zero Suit Samus : High Disadvantage
: Scourge : Large Advantadge (Sonic wrecks Green Fanboys)

I too agree with this list.

Edit: Why does everyone have Mr. G&W @ such a high disadvantadge? Theres absolutely no tournament data to support such a claim and there are like 3 notable G&W players so I dont know where all this experience in the MU is coming from.

<3 All the Evens with Ike and Minor Disadvantadges with Wario <3

 

[JayBee]

my experience is valid at the very least malcolm.

as for GW, I've played Godismyrock multiple times
for Marth, I've played Mattix, mostly.
for Wario, its from BMX, and I think I've played you before too. although i dont think Wario has that much over Sonic to make it a really bad matchup.
some matchups overall, I've lost more than won, or even had about equal win/loss success (Gimr's and Drk. Peach's Peach) but dont feel like its that bad, even with issues like priority.


geez, sonic can get to be such an awkward character to judge sometimes. especially to the non sonic mains.

tbh, if i had no experience against a character, it may be Pit. but that's it. MD/VA kinda plays everybody.

 

[Aehetag]

This proposal is fine... it's just I'd rather not have to have people that have already sent submissions do it again. I don't mind having to do some things again, but I also understand not everybody is me and don't even want to go through the effort to do things once... If I have people send in yet another submission on my failure, I'm too fearful that it will be the straw that breaks the camal's back... Although this isn't exactly a mathematical problem, but it is just as much of a "mathematician's block" nevertheless.

You said it yourself, although it may mean work on my part by having to do some extra steps, can I still end up the same final answer regardless? That is my major concern.

Many thanks for your time, you don't know how much I appreciate this.

People don't have to resubmit anything, I'm just saying assigning values between -3 and 3 to the different ratings (minor advantage, etc), then averaging those assigned values and then going back to the original percent values is unnecessary work and potentially data skewing.
As an example of what you'd do for my suggestion; say (hypothetically) that three people rated the matchup with Bowser as:
minor advantage 60-40
major advantage 65-35
even 50-50
The average my way would be: (60+65+50)/3 = 58.3
so the match up for Bowser averages to 58-42, which if you round to the nearest rating category (60-40) it's a minor advantage.
This has nothing to do with how people post their rankings, just a way for your calculations to be easier. I hope the example made what I'm trying to say clearer and that it helps.
I'll even offer to do the calculations if you send me a compilation of lists to do it from (seeing as some on the thread aren't very serious)

 

[Kinzer]

Oh, that seems much more simple! I wanted to avoid people having to use a ratio system, but it seems that it really helps anyway... I just didn't want people to ponder on this, Chis is right that it's not exactly "OMGNEWATWTFBBQNOOBPWNCOPTOR!", but at least I have something else to work with.

I won't have you do any calculations unless you really don't mind this kind of work, especially with no immediate reward. Since it was my idea to do this however, I'd rather be the one to do all the work. Tell you what, by the start of the new year, I should have a list of all matchup ratio averages posted, and if you want, you can double check and see if my work is accurate. If it isn't, then I'll leave it up to you to correct and put up all your data, which I'll put up in the OP for future reference.

I'll put up all my findings in this thread, so that nothing is left in the dark and that anybody who wants to can challenge or confirm my data. Hopefully I'll save you a bit of trouble if I put up some foundation and not have you do it all by scratch... but this is assuming my data is worth any value/ understandable... hehe... hueogh boy...

If I can't do this right, I should at least be able to get frame-data for Sonic's D-Throw. Getting that kind of data is easy, all you have to do is count... the hard part is not counting a frame, and having to work 2-3 controllers at a time, but that's not much of a hassle... especially if I have others help me on that. Winter Break is the end of next week, so I won't be burdened with schoolwork.

 

[Boxob.]

I wasn't trolling, I meant minor advantage on lucario, my bad. It's like 55:45, Sonic.

Everything else I put, I meant though.

 

[Aehetag]

Glad it helps! And I have winter break too so if you do end up stuck on the calculations, don't hesitate to ask.
Anyway... back to what this thread is about:

Bowser: very minor advantage
Captain Falcon: minor advantage
Diddy Kong: minor disadvantage
Donkey Kong: even
Falco: minor disadvantage
Fox: very minor advantage
Mr. Game & Watch: minor disadvantage
Ganondorf: major advantage
Ice Climbers: minor disadvantage
Ike: minor advantage
Jigglypuff: very minor advantage
King Dedede: even
Kirby: even
Link: minor advantage
Lucario: minor disadvantage
Lucas: very minor disadvantage
Luigi: very minor disadvantage
Mario: very minor advantage
Marth: major disadvantage
Meta Knight: even
Ness: major advantage
Olimar: major disadvantage
Peach: very minor disadvantage
Pikachu: minor disadvantage
Pit: very minor disadvantage
Pokémon Trainer: minor advantage
R.O.B.: minor disadvantage
Samus: minor advantage
Sheik: even
Snake: minor disadvantage
Sonic: even
Toon Link: minor disadvantage
Wario: very minor disadvantage
Wolf: very minor advantage
Yoshi: even
Zelda: major advantage
Zero Suit Samus: even

Not quite as conservative as most of the other posts, but I see Sonic as quite a force at perfect game with many options to get around opponent strengths and his own weaknesses.

 

[Tenki]

Well if you want to be nitpicky, Nintendo should be the ones who have the last say on what is, since they made this game.

Uhm, It's really hard to say why anybody would want to do this. I don't see the harm in doing it though, the matchup thread is just this, but with LOTSA MOAR! arguing and all that jazz you see in debate clubs.

;p

the designers don't always really have the say on it.
the gameplay can still develop separately from the original design/intent.

As an highly expierenced Sonic player. Through much thought I have made a list. My calculations are never wrong

: Bowser : High Disadvantage
: Captain Falcon : High Disadvantage
: Diddy Kong : High Disadvantage
: Donkey Kong : High Disadvantage
: Falco : High Disadvantage
: Fox : High Disadvantage
: Mr. Game & Watch :High Disadvantage
: Ganondorf : High Disadvantage
: Ice Climbers : High Disadvantage
: Ike : High Disadvantage
: Jigglypuff : High Disadvantage
: King Dedede : High Disadvantage
: Kirby :High Disadvantage
: Link : High Disadvantage
: Lucario : High Disadvantage
: Lucas : High Disadvantage
: Luigi :High Disadvantage
: Mario : High Disadvantage
: Marth : High Disadvantage
: Meta Knight : High Disadvantage
: Ness : High Disadvantage
: Olimar : High Disadvantage
: Peach : High Disadvantage
: Pikachu : High Disadvantage
: Pit : High Disadvantage
: Pokémon Trainer : High Disadvantage
: R.O.B. : High Disadvantage
: Samus : High Disadvantage
: Sheik : High Disadvantage
: Snake : High Disadvantage
: Sonic : High Disadvantage
: Toon Link : High Disadvantage
: Wario : High Disadvantage
: Wolf : High Disadvantage
: Yoshi : High Disadvantage
: Zelda : High Disadvantage
: Zero Suit Samus : High Disadvantage
: Scourge : Higher than high Disadvantage

 

[MalcolmM]

This thread was a bad idea.

 

[Browny]

^^^ Truth

The reason why other characters boards suck, is because theyre not the Sonic boards. Hence, fads which start anywhere else should never be brought here.

prove me wrong