Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Kinzer]

He's having some internet problems. Give him some time?

 

[JayBee]

this matchup is weird. i have to change the way I play often, and it usually involves how well the player uses bair that setsup how this matchup is gonna play out. spaced bairs seem to safely setup followup moves like jab or ftilt often, so expecting a free attack just because you blocked a bair is fail. I tend to obsevere and look for the second move after the bair, becuase its thier primary spacing tool, and its purpose really is to put them in better position for the next move. That's what I tell myself anyway. play patient on the ground, and punish them when they move forward

The game is a bit easier offstage as you should always expect the side B. even if you dont do damage offstage you should be able to set up some good damage for them as they get on, and most times you just have to grab the ledge at the right time, forcing them to land on the stage with sideB and giving you the lag to punish, and possible reset the situaiton all over.

when i am not playing right against a wolf, its becuase im too aggressive at nuetral situations. it seems okay for me to be most aggro off of tech chasing from throws, and during thier recovery. that's all i can think ot for now.

 

[NH Cody]

I did a really long write up of how to fight wolf I thought chis would have put it in the OP...

He re

ummmm. I dont know what specifically is giving you trouble so I guess Ill just go through a basic overview of how sonic wins the match...
1. Unless you can powershield it on command, dont attempt to shield grab the bair. and you probably shouldnt try it then either, because it is lagless and has mad range. and sonic has crap grab range.
2. learn to power shield the lazers. he has a lot of lag after he fires them, so its possible to run up and grab/dash attack him after he shoots if you are close enough. alternatively, you can spinshot over them and punish him.
3. if hes the type to try to shine as hes falling to get out of comboes, you can shield grab it.
4. DOWN TILT. work on down tilting successively and doing instant reverse down tilts, if you are good you can combo wolf from 0-about 45 and than into a grab from down tilt. most people arent fast enough to do that many reverse down tilts one after the other. so just down tilt him as much as possible to punish his moves, and when you dont think youll be able to down tilt again just grab. down tilts to 2 pummel up throw, can be around 35- 45% of free damage.
5. learn what the wolf likes to do out of down throw (its the only worth while throw wolf has) and avoid the followups. usually rolling backwards is the safest option when he down throws you.
6. Stop dying. wolfs usually start fishing for down smashes at about the 110-120 range. pay attention and learn to bait shield and punish the down smash. sometimes, if the wolf is bold he will down smash your attempt to punish his down smash. dont try to grab to punish the down smash. use down tilt if he is at low percents, or ASC/fair/ftilt/bair at high percents. note the ASC and bair will probably only work if the wolf likes down smashing multiple times in a row.
7. FSMASH! most good wolfs dont use f smash any more cus its kinda bad. ut if your wolf likes to f smash. a good way to get free damage is to stand right inside the edge of his f smash range. the wolf will probably say, he doesnt know i can hit him from here. and try to f smash you. but if you shield as soon as he starts the move. its a free shield grab/down tilt at low percents for you
8. GIMPS! Gimps are very important. as its usually necessary to gimp the wolf to win seeing as wolf clearly out classes sonic in killing power. theres 2 parts to edgeguarding wolf effectively.
a. get as far out from the stage as you can to force the wolf into making an error. standing at the ledge and doing an ISDJ is a good option here. your objective isnt necessarily to gimp him, but use long lasting moves like down air, fair, and nair to either kill him or make him airdodge. if the wolf is forced to airdodge, the battle should be almost over.
b. getting to the ledge before wolf. wolf is very reliant on the ledge for his recovery. so if you can get to the edge and outlast his recovery move with your ledge invincibility, wolf will probably die, this is why its important for you to make the wolf airdodge or shine before he attempts to get to the ledge, because wolf falls like a brick, airdodging will almost always put him below the stage and it wolf is below the stage. the ledge is pretty much his only survival option. so if you can force him to do something in phase 1, and than get to the ledge before him in phase 2, the stock should be over.
also note that i believe fair trades hits with his up b, and nair outright beats it, even the weak hit. bair beats it as well. also, the hits of his up b have essentially NO hitstun, so if you get caught in it, mash your fair or nair, and you might be able to hit him out of it while you are stuck in it.
that ended up being a lot longer than I thought. hope it helps

 

[Tesh]

Wolf can kill just fine under 150% with Uair, Fair and Bair (revenge killing). Fair auto cancels out of a shorthop and with wolf's mobility in the air, its a much safer kill option than Dsmash spamming.

You can't shield grab wolf's back air unless the spacing is bad AND you power shield (out of a dash).

Be wary of Dthrow follow ups from wolf, just like falco, he has options for all percents (though i believe you can tech dthrow)

 

[Sonic-Rave]

You can tech wolf's dthrow after 40(or was it 60%?) And it might give you the upper hand if the Wolf doesn't expect it but generally Wolf will still have the advantage.

 

[Tesh]

It should help you deal with follow ups better though.

 

[Browny]

wow the OP/poll is so old omg chis do something about it lol.

 

['V']

So is there any way that Sonic can really deal with Dedede's Inhale..? I find that the only way to beat it is either perfectly space a F-smash, hit at the top of his head with a spaced B-air, or just not approach it.

Is there anything else that he can do in that situation?

 

[Tesh]

I wish I understood it well enough. I've actually beaten it with forward air (not just the final hit), back air, ftilt, fsmash, upsmash. If you aren't sure, your best bet is to wait until he stops or just jump over him with spinshot and hit him from the other side.

If there is a waddle dee or waddle do around you can jab it into his mouth and then he has some horrible ending lag you can punish (definitely the best way to punish inhale).

 

[da K.I.D.]

i mean, you could just airdodge through it and punish.


thats the kind of thing I mean when I say people over here are trying to be better sonics, and they are neglecting the fact that they need to be better players.

 

['V']

I mean it's not like he's just using it on the ground, he's using it from B-air and D-air camping. He then fast falls it next to where I am, whether it be where I'm shielding, approaching, etc. I've tried to spinshot over him as well, but then he hits me with a U-tilt. If I try to get behind me, I get grabbed. I'm just not really sure how a Sonic should win if the Dedede knows how to do this right.

 

[da K.I.D.]

inhale takes forever to start.

You can literally avoid it on reaction.

 

[Kinzer]

Goggles is right on this.

If Inhale is bothering you now, I don't want to think about how bad it will be when a D3 player abuses other things that make this matchup into his favor. ;~;

... It is slightly in his favor, right? As in 55:45? 6:4? I'd call it even but I may be a minority on that opinion

 

[da K.I.D.]

if I were better against the character, I would be Inclined to call it even, but Im SUPER bad vs ddd.

i think it could actually be in sonics favor eventually.

the same reason I think he beat g and watch, and rob, because eventually, sonic is going to learn to run circles around such basic, straight forward, one dimensional characters.

 

['V']

The sad thing is... Those one-dimensional characters are still good enough on their own to where it doesn't matter. That's just the way the game mechanics work.

I honestly don't think Sonic will be that good enough to fully deal with all of that, especially when smart ledgeplay is involved on GW's standpoint.

 

[Kinzer]

There's a perfectly logical explanation as to why characters who were thought to be originally good have descended downwards since, while characters with an ever-constantly changing metagame are on the rise.

Spoiler

People won't fall for the same stupid gimmick over and over.

 

['V']

It depends on how powerful the gimmick is.

 

[da K.I.D.]

no, it really doesnt depend like that at all.

if robs down smash had 5 more hits to it, did 20% more damage and the hit box was twice as big, it still wouldnt matter because you already know what the dude is going for every time.

if the character is basic straight forward and only has one good option then no matter how good that option is, people are going to learn to get around it.

 

[Espy Rose]

I could accept that Sonic vs. Dedede is 50:50.
As of current, I don't, but even still, it's not that hard.

Dedede is a giant, fat, slow moving, slow attacking character. You hit him like, 30 times before he manages to lay a hand on you.

Dedede has the chaingrab and an edgeguard game that puts a bunch of pressure on us to recover, but that's about it. Almost everything he does is punishable to an extent, and racking up damage on him is stupidly easy.

The KO is tough, but doable, especially with his terrible recovery and aerial speed.

Still though, his edge game, chain grab, and weight kinda make it difficult, but nothing beyond a 60:40. Hell, if I wanted to use 55:45, I would (but I don't, because it's silly).

I'd just prefer the term "Slight Advantage". Much easier.

 

[TommyGreenShirt]

if I were better against the character, I would be Inclined to call it even, but Im SUPER bad vs ddd.

i think it could actually be in sonics favor eventually.

the same reason I think he beat g and watch, and rob, because eventually, sonic is going to learn to run circles around such basic, straight forward, one dimensional characters.

Game & Watch is 2 dimensional.

 

[Trent]

Dedede isn't that tough imo.

I practice against him constantly though, so I know that match up. Most important factor is to just be patient. Once you get that % lead, chill near an edge and wait for him to approach + projectile / punish. Bait / Punish. Etc.

Don't charge into the penguin unless you see an opening. If you chill near the edge, the CG will do only 8% fresh, instead of like 35% from the middle of the stage. Don't go throwing aerials in front of him either, a D3 conditioned to fight Sonic WILL shieldgrab you out of a SH Fair (Happens to me all the time).

Screw De3's edge guard game. If it wasn't for his edge guard game this would be 50-50 or even in Sonic's favor. But alas, once you're off the edge, it's a ***** to get back on without getting a Bair to the face.

 

[WedginatorX]

This has only worked once or twice for me, and is somewhat impractical, but spring plant under d3's recovery and spring uair/bair to punish?

 

['V']

Dedede isn't that tough imo.

I practice against him constantly though, so I know that match up. Most important factor is to just be patient. Once you get that % lead, chill near an edge and wait for him to approach + projectile / punish. Bait / Punish. Etc.

Don't charge into the penguin unless you see an opening. If you chill near the edge, the CG will do only 8% fresh, instead of like 35% from the middle of the stage. Don't go throwing aerials in front of him either, a D3 conditioned to fight Sonic WILL shieldgrab you out of a SH Fair (Happens to me all the time).

Screw De3's edge guard game. If it wasn't for his edge guard game this would be 50-50 or even in Sonic's favor. But alas, once you're off the edge, it's a ***** to get back on without getting a Bair to the face.

This is the best answer so far. Thank you.

I believe this matchup is at least a soft counter against Sonic. (6-4 Dedede)

 

[Kinzer]

This has only worked once or twice for me, and is somewhat impractical, but spring plant under d3's recovery and spring uair/bair to punish?

It's kind of legit.

Just make sure the D3 isn't aware of it and uses it to hit you on the way up.

Granted, I don't think there's much you need to worry about save for a Fair/timed Bair, but unnecessary damage is bad.

 

[Sonic-Rave]

I'd hate to try to change the discussion so suddenly but I think I need help against PT, specifically Squirtle.

Reflex was wrecking me with grab releases O_o

 

[Kinzer]

Well, let me ask you some things first.

Did Bair do anything for you?

What about Fair?

Was Squirtle more grounded or was he in the air a lot?

What about Uair? I believe that should work all the time if he's under, but again I would need to know more.

Were you playing aggressively?

Was Squirtle killing you before you killed him?

How did you handle Charizard?

How much playtime was Ivysaur getting, in terms of percentage. Was it an equal amount of the other two/Charizard or not even?

Were you being more grounded or airborne?

How much usage was Dash Attack getting from you against Squirtle? Against Charizard?

We'll go from there.

 

[Sonic-Rave]

Well, let me ask you some things first.

Did Bair do anything for you? It was only thing that was working well

What about Fair? SDId out of it everytime and punished me.

Was Squirtle more grounded or was he in the air a lot? He was mostly grounded until he got me either offstage or just up in the air.

What about Uair? I believe that should work all the time if he's under, but again I would need to know more. It worked a few times but Reflex adapted and went side b to get back to the ground.

Were you playing aggressively? Somewhat, but I was getting more pressured by him.

Was Squirtle killing you before you killed him? Yes

How did you handle Charizard? I handled Charizard pretty well. Much easier to punish

How much playtime was Ivysaur getting, in terms of percentage. Was it an equal amount of the other two/Charizard or not even? Ivysaur got at best 10 seconds of face time lol

Were you being more grounded or airborne? Grounded

How much usage was Dash Attack getting from you against Squirtle? Against Charizard? A lot on both, but I was getting punished by Squirtle. I was using DA for some grab setups on Charizard though.

We'll go from there.

Pretty much that ^

 

[Kinzer]

So you mean to tell me he was intentionally getting hit by Fair to punish you out? What about timing it so that he would only get hit by the ending? Sure it won't get that much damage, but IMO Fair is meant to be used to wall the opponent out. Now of course if they predict it and hit you when it's over it starts to become a problem, but I suppose that's where mix-ups come in. I'd like to think that's easier than done though, however can't rule out that possibility ya know.

I see. Looks like Squirtle is easier to deal with if he's airborne, since he has stubby little arms and legs. Understandable.

... Side-B? Exactly how high were these attempts? I hope they weren't Spring U-Air kills. Uair is fast, and if Sonic is close to the ground he should be able to pursue any enemy. ;~; Side-B is so punishable I don't even want to think about it. >_< Mmmmm~.

What pressure? Was he pushing you to the edge of the stage or something? How does he even do that, AFAIK Squirtle doesn't have some long- or mid-range projectile. I ask because I would think it'd be a better idea to tire out Squirtle and then work from there. How bad could it be? Either you get to face a fresh Ivysaur, or a tired Squirtle for that stock. I would say that in this circumstance PT has as much trouble, if not more trouble killing than Sonic does. You're gonna need to tell me even more.

What a shame. I guess you can refer to the above.

As expected.

Perfect. He knows that Ivysaur gets ripped to shreds at top-level play.

Oey~. Try to do more hit-and-run, with more emphasis on the running part (until fatigue kicks in then feel free to put on a show). You can do this either way, but I personally prefer to stick to aerial assaults, what with Spinshots and ASCs and Spindash Jumps and all that good stuff which I'm sure I do not need to enlighten you on.

Until I can get more frame-data, try and connect with the strong hit. At least this way, Squirtle cannot immediately retaliate if the weak hit connects at a low percentage.

And after all this I'm surprised you didn't ask about stages. Are you fairly confident in knowing where to go?

 

[Sonic-Rave]

I don't think he was intentionally getting hit by fair to punish me out of it. More so he would punish it after I try to fair while being hit by a string of aerial attacks so I can attempt to break away.

And no, these weren't spring-uair attempts. I don't really know how to explain this well. But it was like he would substitute his side b with airdodge because of the super armor. My uair would connect but not do anything, he'd pop out of his shell and punish me or retreat to a safer position.

And once he got me offstage (which was where I took the most damage) to me, it was harder to get past his edgeguarding than if I was facing a Marth or Lucario.

Finally as far as stages go, I took from what I saw from Reflex in past matches against Kismet and such where he would always take him to PS1, which I banned. However, as far as CPing against PT, I just went with where my strengths lie which was Brinstar, which was the game I won. He finally CP'd BF against me and it was downhill from there for me.

 

[Kinzer]

*Sigh.*

I am sadface that I cannot find any kind of image of Reisen on my hard-drive that shows how sadface I am to read that last post. The best thing I have right now (and it isn't even accurate) is this.

Sharpie, You are able to adapt, yes? I don't have any reason not to believe you, but I want to at least give you this to consider next time you're in the air and you're getting juggled.

Springs are delicious! Moar of those please!

... I am not crazy, I am not crazy, I am not crazy, I am not-


*ahem.*

Now... About you getting punished after a Side-B. And this is assuming that the Uair connects.

Wut?

IIRC, Squirtle gets pushed aside if he gets hit out of that attack. How is it that he comes out of his shell fast enough to hit you out of Uair, which is one of Sonic's faster aerials? I am really baffled.

I could see why being edgeguarded would be a problem when Squirtle isn't fatigued. I'm not sure if telling you this will help you any bit, but when you're offstage try to delay your recovery as much as you can. Make sure you do it when you won't get hit/punished for it though, and that you always leave yourself at least two options to land on ground again. I wouldn't necessary say Homing Attack; even though that is a big help, but Spin Dash I think slows your fall speed a bit, or that hop gives you some extra air-time perhaps.

Of course, not dying in the first place is the next best thing to do. If you have to momentum-cancel, do it. SpinDash/Homing Attack/(insert any kind of attack thingimajig here) delay can come after you've assured yourself that you will not/ have not hit the blast line yet.

After that, it would be even better if you could not get sent offstage in the first place. That's easier said than done too, however try to go about working on that as best as you can though.

Try to get the matches recorded, saved, and uploaded next time. Not only would a visual help, but I want to see if any of my advice is helping.

 

[Sonic-Rave]

Idk, maybe at that time I just lost my focus and was making blatant mistakes. It was 2nd round that I faced Reflex after winning my first match. After losing to him though, I won 4 straight before I lost to Rayku.

But I definitely will get some vids of this next time and will take into account what you said.

I got this!

 

[~TBS~]

what...what did i just click on Kinzer? thats no good...lol

PT is so...irritating to fight when squirtle is out. You guys went over everything that needed to be discussed...but squirtle is a duck in the air. I cant stand being in the air vs squirtle.

The gr you're talking about sharpie is gr to neutral a combo, right? And more options he used out of that, right? Just SDI away or into him, i think? Thats what i do and it ends up working, but i never played reflex before, just other PT mains. Ivysaur is just...ivysaur but i still wouldnt underestimate em. Charizard is a huge target, so take advantage of that but be careful.

/stuffyoualreadyknow.

 

[Sonic-Rave]

Yeah you're right Speed. It's a gr to jab combo. The thing with Reflex, even if he's gonna get hit for it, he will change Pokemon on the spot so I'm looking at an 8 minute match vs Squirtle. :l

 

[Kinzer]

An image-dump, Speed.

An image dump.

You're welcome(?).

Anyway why does everybody seem to have problems with an airborne Squirtle? It's like Squirtle is that fast in the air, or has broken range on his aerials. On the contrary, Uair will hit him out of anything if he's above you, Bair does a good job at taming him behind you, and Fair is... Fair.

This is all assuming you are directly challenging him in the air. Of course, I can't stress enough how Squirtle has a good ground game and staying in the air too much will lead to punishment, most prominent thing I can think of is a Hydroplaned USmash.

... Oh wow, I didn't even think about SDIing Squirtle's jab after a ground GR. That's brilliant, and it should be punished everytime!

... Oh @#$%ing Hell, now I need to find an image that makes it look like Reisen approves. That will come another day, but for now I think I've done enough.

 

[SoupaSonic]

Can you guys help me with the peach matchup? Idk what to do against her

 

[Tesh]

Running from squirtle and playing really safe is a good idea.
Fatigue basically gives you 90 seconds of full power then you lose 30% from all attacks in addition to stale moves.

The pokemon also loses an extra 1 second for each move used (a couple of exceptions).

Fatigue also reduces hitstun, making it harder to combo (despite the reduced knockback) and making his weaker moves less safe on hit.
So if you can bait attacks out of squirtle and avoid him long enough, he becomes very weak and will have alot of difficulty killing a character that he can't gimp.

You don't have to approach squirtle, all he can do is try to push you offstage with water gun (it doesn't push you if you shield) and attempt to edgeguard.

Squirtle probably has a slight advantage on Sonic for the first 90 seconds, but if you just play patient and defensive the matchup will turn in your favor (which is why PT should be low tier). None of the pokemon have the tools to chase Sonic down within the time limit.

Also Squirtle has trouble with his air release animation. If you grab him out of the air, you can abuse it.

Pretty much what Kinzer said.

 

[JayBee]

i actually never conciously payed attention to the effects of fatique but did my best to avoid jabs on the ground by spacing with ftilt (when I felt he was gonna do it) and learn to better space my bair by retreating it against his aerials. I also added retreating side b charges against aerial approaches to punish them, partly due to good timing and partly due to the invincy frames.

Overall, if i took what the sqirtle would show me offensively and countered early game, and when you get to very high percents give him as little chance to grab you as much as you can, because he needs his down throw to reliably kill often, and he tends to utilize it in order to switch to a character with better killing moves. For me if i can kill squirtle and force switch him to ivy then 2/3 of the job is done because ivy, even a good one, is not hard to beat down imo.

 

[Kinzer]

Can you guys help me with the peach matchup? Idk what to do against her

Do you still need help with this matchup?

What in particular is giving you trouble with her? Is it her float? Edgeguarding her? Turnips? Ground attacks? How to approach her? What's the lay-down?

 

[NH Cody]

Kinzer I appreciate how you always answer everybody's questions. lol

I could use advice against peach myself. It's like whenever I'm below her I can't touch her since she dairs...

 

[Kinzer]

Whenever she's above you?

I could understand it a bit easier is she was floating an inch above the stage, where she becomes a... floating hitbox, but when she's above you?

Sonic's Uair alone outspaces almost everything that has a vertical hitbox (in terms of aerials. I don't think it can match the broken of Snake's UTilt lol). It's really a matter of timing, and since Peach is kind of floaty, all you have to do is stick to the ground, chase her with Sonic's ground speed, and go from there broski.

That's just with Uair, imagine camping her landing and timing dat Sawnik Pawnch? Of course it requires a hard read but if you can pull those off it's so delicious.

There's also when she is just floating slightly off the ground. In which case fly like a butterfly, sting like a bee and Bair when you're trying to keep distance, or Fair when you want to weave in and out and she doesn't have her *** out (her Bair) or hasn't figured out your timing yet (her Fair). Don't approach if she's floating away, chances are she's baiting you, and Sonic can't really directly challenge it. You can try aerial approaches but again it just becomes a matter of being patient and attacking when opportunities present themselves.

Anything else?

Also, I suggest this thread be turned into a Matchup query. It's pretty obvious that guides won't be done anytime soon, if ever, but I do know that general advice can be given. That's what I'm doing now anyway. At least this way something productive gets done and we have a sticky that isn't collecting dust.