Sonic discussing Ganondorf matchup!

[Jim Morrison]

Sonic Matchup discussing Ganondorf.
Hey there. Sonic boards are currently discussing Ganondorf. We need some input of Ganondorf, because we want to know from the experts. If you got something to add/correct to this matchup discussion and it's statements, you certainly should. The link is here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190510&page=155

If you have NO idea what Sonic can or can't do, I'm sure you can state a request to play against a Sonic main there (or the Sonic chat room or the Sonic wifi challenge thread). Of course, remember it's wifi, and if you have a poor (yellow-orange or worse) connection, keep in mind that Sonic is very much of a 'punishment'/'reactive' character, so don't take match results too seriously.

Just use it to get a glimpse of each other's playstyles and/or find move-vs-move information.


Also, silly things to keep in mind, in case you get overwhelmed by Sonic vocab:
- Spinshot: a fast-moving (run speed) insta-doublejump done out of a side-B charge (grounded or aerial) or an aerial down-B charge.
- ASC: Aerial Spin Charge (Aerial down-B) - has properties of multiple hits based on velocity (11 damage max first hit, 7-10 damage on followup hits). Can be shield cancelled upon landing.
- Side-B: Side-B's grounded charge can be cancelled for feints. Upon release, it has invincibility frames, like Ike's Eruption Super Armor, but invincible.
__________________

 

[:034:]

I played against Tenki online, but the lag made it pretty bad... I don't think I'll be much help in this match-up discussion. Otherwise, I have played a Sonic main in a friendly during a tournament... But that was with Wolf.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Dutchman, you could brawl me, the lag can't possibly be bad. I can brawl in 1 or 2 hours. However I'm not the greatest Sonic, I could still see how a Ganon actually plays.

EDIT: Also, what city do you live in? Rotterdam here.

 

[:034:]

I guess we could play a few matches, but I'm very scared of Sonic online. Can't seem to hit that bugger ever. Just leave your FC here and give me a time to get online.

EDIT: Yeah, Rotterdam. O: Welke wijk zit je? Er zitten in Rotterdam blijkbaar meer smashers dan ik dacht.

 

[Jim Morrison]

:D SEXY.
Centrum, bij Eendrachtsplein.

 

[:034:]

Dat is echt 10 minuten fietsen... Ik woon vlakbij de Diergaarde. Oke, de lag zal dan wel niet zo heel erg zijn. xD

 

[Jim Morrison]

I can brawl now. I'll add you. You host if you see me online.
Post here if you're gonna fight, I'll be in with anyone brawl for the time being.

 

[:034:]

Yeah, I can fight you, if you're still up for it.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Terrific, go online, add me, host, we have green connection.

 

[hyperstation]

Come on, FD, you big baby. Sonic is fun to play, even online. I like the Sonic/Ganon match-up a lot. No johns.

 

[:034:]

TOO EASY, PIZZA CAKE

There was still lag but I won every match, except for the Frigate Orpheon match... Where the stage flipped.

Warlock Punch Kills: 3
Utilt: 2
Utilt Kill: 1
Epicness: 9000+

I'd like to play you offline someday, gf2tw, it's always more fun without lag.

You'll like this DAD - I hit Sonic with the Punch out of his upb. As if punching people through walls wasn't enough, he goes to kill you when you're ****ing invincible.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Actually, I was over half of the Spring, so the invincibility wore off.
I bet my mum wouldn't let me play/meet people I meet in the intranets -.-

 

[A2ZOMG]

I ****ing hate playing against Sonic. He's too gay on FD unless you have projectiles. =P

 

[Jim Morrison]

I really don't need you in here if you say useless stuff like that which is entirely untrue fax.

 

[hyperstation]

I ****ing hate playing against Sonic. He's too gay on FD unless you have projectiles. =P

WRONG.

Playing Sonic on FD is really fun. Sonic charging a spin dash on one edge while Ganon is chillin on the other side sets up crazy mind games...western shootout style.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

WRONG.

Playing Sonic on FD is really fun. Sonic charging a spin dash on one edge while Ganon is chillin on the other side sets up crazy mind games...western shootout style.

Qft. Only what Ganon mains should know.

 

[ROOOOY!]

A Sonic charging his Spindash from one side of the stage whilst his opponent is at the other is surely the sign of a competant Sonic main, no?

>_<

Final Destination isn't that great for Sonic. Sure, he's got the room to work, but it's not that easy to get kills on.

 

[Dr. Hyde]

from my experience hitting the little rodent wins the game pretty fast

 

[Tenki]

A Sonic charging his Spindash from one side of the stage whilst his opponent is at the other is surely the sign of a competant Sonic main, no?

>_<

Final Destination isn't that great for Sonic. Sure, he's got the room to work, but it's not that easy to get kills on.

People (in general) kind of just assume "LOL FLAT STAGE! SONIC LIKES TO RUN BECAUSE HE'S FAST, SO FLAT LONG STAGE IS A GOOD HABITAT FOR BLUE HEDGEHOG!"

But in reality, all the scary (and effective) mindgames and traps are within half-stage's range from your opponent.

 

[Tenki]

Eh, shameless double post, but they seem to want to move on, so I'll continue this here:

Tenki -

I still don't see where Sonic is getting this negligible 5 point advantage. I can't help but think you Sonic dudes are just trying to take home field advantage. Honestly, I don't see it. You say "speed", but I mean...come on. Any Ganon worth his weight in salt (which is a lot of salt, mind you...) isn't going to be setting himself up for Sonic to run in and punish him. This match-up is so cool (really one of the better match-ups in the game IMO), because the advantages that the two characters have against each other are so DRASTICALLY different. How are you figuring this extra 5 points?

From anywhere under 1/2 of FD's distance away from you, Sonic can punish a large majority of your movements. If you take into account things that require a bit of 'commitment' on your part, like trying to deal with a fully charged ASC that may release from 1/3-1/4 of FD away from you, and the fact that we can cancel it upon landing (will we be above you in under 20 frames [ASC-spinshot]? will we release a fully charged roll attack that will reach you in under 20 frames? will we just shieldcancel it and perform a different approach altogether?). That kind of mixup presents a bunch of answers to each situation that may not necessarily carry over too well if Sonic performs one of the other movements. This is something similar to the limiting effect of Ganon's Flame Choke. But the reason this may or may not be a factor in the matchup is the speed of Ganondorf's "counter moves". Will you attempt to shield it? Spotdodge? Tilt? Jab? Jump and U-air/D-air? How punishable are they, and how long is their startup and ending lag?

Baiting might not necessarily be a factor in the matchup, but overall move punishability might.

If this whole matchup was based on bad players that wasted moves left and right, it would be obviously in Sonic's favor. Actually, thinking back to the Ganon boards way back when, people thought it was hugely in Ganondorf's favor because bad Sonics just used grounded spindash from across the stage left and right all day, and all the Ganondorf player had to do was jab or D-air in time lol.

I like to generally hold my SJ until as late as possible so that if I have to change game plans - like avoiding a spring, for instance - I can. I often catch someone ledge dropping by holding that second jump and SJ->UpB very quickly so I catch them before they can ledge-grab again. Springing clears sonic from the ledge too, so if you miss that spring kill, I have a free ledge. I'm in no way saying that using a ledge drop -> spring is not a good tactic which can indeed work, but I'm just saying it's anything but guaranteed. Ganon has faced much more animosity on the ledge than Sonic presents with the Spring.

A thought just came to mind, which is why I decided to bring up this quote lol.

So if Sonic ledgedrops a quick aerial, like his F-air (flailing hands) for example, it risks stage spiking you, sending you off-stage, or interrupting your double jump/recovery.

Of course, you can double jump and airdodge, but there's kind of.. a problem with that.

After the airdodge, Ganondorf is under his starting point isn't he? You need to double jump or have a height boost of some sort to perform FoG. So doesn't that also carry over to recovery? If you airdodge past an F-air started somewhat early (timed to 'sweetspot' the final hit, to minimize chances of you DI'ing through it), I'd think that it would leave me enough time/position to punish you when you don't have your double jump - either before/during up-B.

 

[Shadow Nataku]

I'm wondering if anyone has mentioned yet that all forms of Sonic's spin dashes are all outprioritized by any form of Ganon's Flame Chokes and the USmash. All I ever see is Jab/DAir punish and they're actually less reliable...

I know I haven't really played any good Sonic's period so I can't speak on what truly is effective but from what I've seen of his moves he has an pretty good feint and punish game. But one thing I do know is Sonic's simple rush in and grab or FAir seems far more threatening than most of the approaches I've noted.

Also on the ledge spiking/Up+B point I wanted to to just note that Ganon can actually buffer a UAir during a DJ. Or there are some Ganon's who like whipping out a FAir both are incredibly dangerous and you risk being ledge spiked yourself. I myself prefer UAir due to its speed, ridiculous priority, range and lasting hitbox.

 

[Tenki]

I'm wondering if anyone has mentioned yet that all forms of Sonic's spin dashes are all outprioritized by any form of Ganon's Flame Chokes and the USmash. All I ever see is Jab/DAir punish and they're actually less reliable...

Unless Sonic is doing this out of a double jump already, he can jump to cancel aerial spindash approaches (of both kinds) at any time after release, which leaves for some punishment either from spring or a fastfall aerial if he notices your Flame Choke starting up.

If he's at a mid-level distance, probably approaching with an ASC, he can shield cancel the landing and spotdodge+punish a Flame choke.

Otherwise, it's not a bad idea to try to FC Sonic out of his spindash, but just keep in mind you'd have to catch the player off-guard to do that.

Probably better off shielding a grounded spindash approach (most Sonics will jump and immediately aerial), then jumping a U-air out of shield to punish the aerial.

If anything, I'd take advantage of Sonic's homing attack. If he tries to perform Homing Attack without setting you up first (hitting you or knocking you off-stage), you can walk away from it, or face the opposite direction and charge a U-smash. I was playing against a pretty horrible Sonic as Ganondorf (former main lol) and caught him with well-timed U-smashes/F-smashes, and other painful things whenever he did predictable/exploitable movements like a pure grounded spindash approach or Homing Attack.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I'm wondering if anyone has mentioned yet that all forms of Sonic's spin dashes are all outprioritized by any form of Ganon's Flame Chokes and the USmash. All I ever see is Jab/DAir punish and they're actually less reliable...

Flame Choke won't work if Sonic is charing any roll. Sonic just waits and waits, till it's full charge. By then it's gonna reach you in no time. First you need to notice he released the SDr. Secondly you need to input the Flame Choke, where the problem is. There's quite a noticeable time where he is holding his hand back for the Flame Choke. In that time, Sonic is already there. And Unsmash just cannot work

I know I haven't really played any good Sonic's period so I can't speak on what truly is effective but from what I've seen of his moves he has an pretty good feint and punish game. But one thing I do know is Sonic's simple rush in and grab or FAir seems far more threatening than most of the approaches I've noted.

Dash grab will not work. Anyone will spotdodge/roll if Sonic is still running up to you from over 1/4th of FD. F-air can work, but it's much more fun to have Ganon put up a shield with SDSC/ASCcancel and then grab.

Also on the ledge spiking/Up+B point I wanted to to just note that Ganon can actually buffer a UAir during a DJ. Or there are some Ganon's who like whipping out a FAir both are incredibly dangerous and you risk being ledge spiked yourself. I myself prefer UAir due to its speed, ridiculous priority, range and lasting hitbox.

Lol wait, F-air after a DJ is obvious death. It's such a long move and U-air is the better option to ledge-spike. However Sonic won't get ledge-spiked. Instead, jump away and drop a Spring.

AMIDOINGITWRONG?

 

[Tenki]

AMIDOINGITWRONG?

yeah, a little bit lol

[1] Flame Choke won't work if Sonic is charing any roll. Sonic just waits and waits, till it's full charge. By then it's gonna reach you in no time. First you need to notice he released the SDr. Secondly you need to input the Flame Choke, where the problem is. There's quite a noticeable time where he is holding his hand back for the Flame Choke. In that time, Sonic is already there. And Unsmash just cannot work

[2] Dash grab will not work. Anyone will spotdodge/roll if Sonic is still running up to you from over 1/4th of FD. F-air can work, but it's much more fun to have Ganon put up a shield with SDSC/ASCcancel and then grab.

[1] Flame Choke's startup isn't that bad lol. Also, it's not really representative of all Sonic play. What I'm seeing from your example is Sonic sitting middle of the level charging down-B. Really..? What's more realistic is a SH or FH ASC (released), because it gives Ganondorf time to react to it, while still giving you complete control over whether or not you really wanna attack. That said, if you're doing almost any "direct spindash" approach (where your intent is to hit with the spindash) while Ganondorf is in an idle state, he can Flame Choke you out of it.

Similarly, you can't completely dismiss Ganondorf's U-smash. It's quick, and with some prediction, he can hit you with it. Hey, when I played against SonicX580, I remembered he said something about Ganondorf being slow and not able to do anything to Sonic. He thought he could hit me in U-smash's startup lag from across the level and ended up getting killed by everything ranging from SH D-air to charged U-smash/F-smash. If you try to jump+doublejump out of an SDR, remember there are some frames (I think until about SH height) that you can't double jump. He tried to escape when he saw I still had my U-smash charging and still got hit by it, because Ganondorf is so tall lol.

However, a smarter Sonic would stick around maybe 1/4-1/3 of FD away and camp the ending lag.

[2] You'd be surprised at how dashgrab does work lol. Anyway, running > shieldgrab works :3 It's funny you talk about reaction time for FC but some people really fall for dashgrabs offline. Weird. Also, Ganondorf can shieldgrab ASC :l

 

[Jim Morrison]

yeah, a little bit lol

howdoidoitrite?

[1] Flame Choke's startup isn't that bad lol. Also, it's not really representative of all Sonic play. What I'm seeing from your example is Sonic sitting middle of the level charging down-B. Really..? What's more realistic is a SH or FH ASC (released), because it gives Ganondorf time to react to it, while still giving you complete control over whether or not you really wanna attack. That said, if you're doing almost any "direct spindash" approach (where your intent is to hit with the spindash) while Ganondorf is in an idle state, he can Flame Choke you out of it.

Similarly, you can't completely dismiss Ganondorf's U-smash. It's quick, and with some prediction, he can hit you with it. Hey, when I played against SonicX580, I remembered he said something about Ganondorf being slow and not able to do anything to Sonic. He thought he could hit me in U-smash's startup lag from across the level and ended up getting killed by everything ranging from SH D-air to charged U-smash/F-smash. If you try to jump+doublejump out of an SDR, remember there are some frames (I think until about SH height) that you can't double jump. He tried to escape when he saw I still had my U-smash charging and still got hit by it, because Ganondorf is so tall lol.

However, a smarter Sonic would stick around maybe 1/4-1/3 of FD away and camp the ending lag.

[2] You'd be surprised at how dashgrab does work lol. Anyway, running > shieldgrab works :3 It's funny you talk about reaction time for FC but some people really fall for dashgrabs offline. Weird. Also, Ganondorf can shieldgrab ASC :l

[1] Well yea, it's kind of stupid to charge a full SC over half of FD. But your not forced to approach with the roll. You can stop charing the SC, go back to normal state. You can also do a jump out of, which is pretty awesome :O Get me some Ganondorf frame data, I'm too lazy.

[2] Dashgrabs can work, but not always o.O. And Ganondorf must have some special super fast grab :O

 

[Tenki]

[2] Dashgrabs can work, but not always o.O. And Ganondorf must have some special super fast grab :O

Forward/up-tilted shield can slow Sonic down while giving startup room, and the hitlag from impact gives the player time to react by starting a grab. I also tend to get most grabs on direct ASC's by grabbing them right as they land, because if they land, they're usually gonna shield cancel and I can catch them out of that lol.

However, all these points are still escapable if Sonic just double jumps - it only applies to "true" direct-ASC approaches, like ASC perfect combo or ASC-grab

 

[Cancel]

Each time when sonic does his dash attack at me i intend to cancel his attack by doing the spartan kick.