Something I think Ness Diehards need to consider (long read)

[Deleted member]

I see no probalem with Ness's removable. His yoyo moves sucked... well basically all his smash moves sucked except for that baseball bat.

Obviously you haven't played or aren't referring to Smash 64. If you were you would know how awesome he is.

Also, just because a character isn't good doesn't mean they should be removed. What if Mario sucked? Should we just remove him? No, they should fix the character.

 

[Drclaw411]

I stopped reading after the first paragraph or so where you say that Ness was barely developed as a character which is a reason you list for him not being in.

Mario, Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Peach, Link, Pit, Wario, Samus, Pokemon Trainer, Yoshi, Ice Climbers, Meta Knight, King Dedede, etc. (I could go on forever) are not developed characters either. Nintendo's games mainly focus on great gameplay not story.

The only ones that you could argue had a developed story are Snake, and possibly Ike. I know Snake is but I haven't played Fire Emblem so I don't know about Ike, but I heard the game has a lot of text so I would assume they do something with him.

I'm a huge Ness fan, and no I DO NOT think he will be back. However your post is extremely poorly written and has so many inconsistencies I couldn't even finish it. Horrible.

EDIT: By the way I have an "insider" telling me Ness is back and I STILL find it unbelievable, unless Sakurai is bringing clones back. So I agree he will likely not be back but I just want to reiterate how far off from reality your train of thought is.

explain to me how red isnt a developed character. pretty much the only really undeveloped chars ever in smash are ice climbers and game and watch

 

[lookatthatbaconsizzle]

Obviously you haven't played or aren't referring to Smash 64. If you were you would know how awesome he is.

Also, just because a character isn't good doesn't mean they should be removed. What if Mario sucked? Should we just remove him? No, they should fix the character.

Yeah I own smash 64. but I was basing my opinion on Melee. and yes, from the update today... they fixed Ness.

 

[Deleted member]

explain to me how red isnt a developed character. pretty much the only really undeveloped chars ever in smash are ice climbers and game and watch

Explain how he is developed as a character.

And Sakurai calls him Pokemon Trainer, not Red. He is some generic guy.

 

[Drclaw411]

Explain how he is developed as a character.

And Sakurai calls him Pokemon Trainer, not Red. He is some generic guy.

Pokemon Trainer (red) is plenty developed. His first game, he starts out as a kid who gets stopped by Professor Oak in the tall grass outside of Pallet Town. After, he is gains a Pokemon, a mentor, and a rival. Everything that proceeds after that = his story, which is developed. It continues in Gold/Silver/Crystal, as he is the final boss.

BTW. POKEMON TRAINER = RED.

if they had named Link 'Hyrulian', yet he looked exactly like Link and was dressed in Link's clothes, what would you call him?

 

[DekuBoy]

Fox is also fully developed.

 

[Deleted member]

Pokemon Trainer (red) is plenty developed. His first game, he starts out as a kid who gets stopped by Professor Oak in the tall grass outside of Pallet Town. After, he is gains a Pokemon, a mentor, and a rival. Everything that proceeds after that = his story, which is developed. It continues in Gold/Silver/Crystal, as he is the final boss.

BTW. POKEMON TRAINER = RED.

if they had named Link 'Hyrulian', yet he looked exactly like Link and was dressed in Link's clothes, what would you call him?

If you think Red is more developed than Ness then you need help, not to mention his name is not Red no matter how much you want it to be. He is a generic guy.

 

[Bajef8]

As silent protagonists, yea...

but from body language as well as how the rest of the cast perceived them, as well as their way of tackling situations help build them up as a silent character, but with a certain feel about them that differentiate them from the others.

Ness did not have this crucial element of expression that is now required to stand out in a world of mute heros.

true, but wan't ness on a game that was 2-D?? so how can he have body language when he was only 2-D pixels and not the 3-D models of mario and link. and i also think melee gave him a small amount of personallity. ness for brawl (though i think it unlikely)!!!

 

[heypancho]

I don't think Red is really all that developed as you're saying o_o.. When you play the game I don't think you act as if Red is the player, but rather yourself. If Red died in the game, I think you'd be more upset about your pokemon. In fact, Red is basically a mobile storage for your pokemon/items. And by that I mean, who ever is playing is really training the pokemon, not Red... you raise your own pokemon ~_~

Anyway, Ness is phat, I'll miss playing him, I hope not to forget him. Lucas will eventually grow on us. Even though I don't see why they couldn't have had different moves.

 

[camzaman]

It's fine if Ness is gone, I just don't want a sexy home run bat or weird jump to be gone...

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

This and the other thread majorly fail for being in the wrong section.

Nice job, but this oughta be moved or closed.

 

[The Qu]

After thinking about today's update, I'm left wondering one thing: Why change the smash attacks? Why take away the trademark yo-yo and baseball bat for generic psi fighting? I think Ness may be back with a slightly changed moveset. I've played Earthbound and can voach for the fact theres more Psi than just what Lucas has. I hope Ness is in, at least.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Ugh, I just read it more carefully and I HATE how you said we knew so little about Ness.

Freaking Magicant people!! It was basically Ness' head.

I think seeing a Snowman Ness made and having him say "We had fun one snowy day. I melted, but I'll always live in your memory" (NOT exact quote) beats Paula, Jeff and Poo.

 

[MookieRah]

but seeing as how you are the only one complaining about it, I don't think you should use the term "our," as noone else but you made this statement.

Dude, I'm a Graphic Designer. Dark text on black is not nearly as readable as a light color on black. Also, you should be using a Sans Serif font, cause Serifs aren't very readable on a monitor. Serif fonts typically have contrasting thick and thin line weights (which yours does), and when they are that small presented on a monitor it suffers from "dazzle" which is basically when some lines are so thin they are near impossible to make out. Not to mention that font was DEFINITELY not designed to be used for the web. The x-height is so small and cause of that it's harder to read the lower case letters (it's as if the lower case letters are at size 8 instead of 10 or so). So either up your font size or grab a serif, and make the color lighter, cause while nobody has voiced their complaints A LOT more people will simply opt not to read what you have to say because it DOES strain the eyes.

 

[Airmicro]

One mistake I can easily see in your post is the fact that you only added "logical" proof on why Lucas is more important than Ness. I agree on your point and it would be only normal to see Lucas as the new EB flag carrier.
But, look at it this way. Removing Ness isn't a necessity. Also, Ness is still the most important character in America.
Moreover, talking about the lack of backstory and emotion Ness had can be a good argument when you talk about SSE, but who said all characters needed to feature in it.
Finally, I think you misjudged the importance of the original 12. Maybe Ness wasn't removed from melee because of the lack of time and the late arrival of Lucas on the scene, but the fact is that he featured in both smash. Now that changes the deal a little because Ness gains a lot of importance for the old fans and removing him would simply cause frustration among them.
Anyway, my point is that Lucas deserves to be the EB face, but Ness is still more important than some of the characters from melee or brawl. He doesn't need to be featured in SSE and heck he can be an unlockable character, but Ness should be in.

 

[Youkai Master]

I agree with MookieRah, your posts are painful to read both for the font and for the color. Please change it.

 

[MookieRah]

Mother 3 is pretty much Japan only. Nintendo of America didn't bother picking it up. I would assume that other countries didn't get it either. Because of that, Lucas is much less known and it makes less sense for him to be the poster boy. Lucas isn't like Marth and Roy, which were japanese only characters, cause they were introduced to help "seed" the popularity of Fire Emblem to be released in the states.

Regardless of the "depth" of the character, the sheer fact that Ness is WAY more popular and recognizable makes him logically the best candidate to represent the series as a whole, and while I'm uncertain as to whether or not he is in myself, we shouldn't discredit him simply based on rumors and assumptions.

 

[baheffron]

I don't understand why it matters so much. Lucas = Ness with changed look/animations. He has the same basic moves, and probably similar physics. Basically, if Mother 3 never existed, Ness would have the exact same "modifications" that Lucas has in Brawl.

 

[BrianM]

Er, what are you talking about when you say Mother 3 had character development for Lucas? If I remember correctly, he doesn't talk either.

It's like saying Crono from Chrono Trigger had a lot of character development, but ironically, he's the only one that has none at all.

 

[Fonz]

@Mookierah: Sorry. but it looks fine on my monitor, and it looks great, sexy even.

but seeing as how you are the only one complaining about it, I don't think you should use the term "our," as noone else but you made this statement. However, if more users are having trouble seeing it, then I will change it. Till then, tough it out. XD

I don't have much trouble, but it looks like pure anus.

 

[heypancho]

Well I think it matters most that Ness = Lucas now because Ness does not = Lucas lol. The whole idea is that people liked Ness and started with Ness and what not. Everyone got a new updated look based off recent games or whatever and to say that Ness/Lucas is like OoT Link/TP Link is dumb. I see where it comes from, but it wouldn't settle right if Brawl Link looked like a blonde Marth that had the same moves as Link. That's not the same. See it's more about the anguish of seeing a character not be the character you know visually.I don't mind Lucas, I look forward to using him, but he's galavanting like he's Ness!

 

[Voyager]

I don't understand why it matters so much. Lucas = Ness with changed look/animations. He has the same basic moves, and probably similar physics. Basically, if Mother 3 never existed, Ness would have the exact same "modifications" that Lucas has in Brawl.

But there is a difference. Lucas ISNT Ness.

Ness = Earthbound

I <3 Earthbound

Thus, I <3 Ness

And therefore, I do not want him replaced.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't have much trouble, but it looks like pure anus.

I agree, it looks downright ********.

 

[Thedude3445]

Okay, I'm fine with ness being out, but a 'hollow avatar'?

 

[CodeRed]

I still think that Ness deserves to come back. I have never played any Earthbound/Mother game before, but I have know about them for a while. Ness is that entire series to me just because of his inclusion in SSB64, even if he hasn't been in every game. I am fine with Lucas, I really like the fact that he is in Brawl, but I do not think that he should be replacing Ness.

 

[dan smith]

Given that Ness isn't even 100% decomfirmed...I think the Ness community is coping pretty well.

 

[FlatSoda]

Given that Ness isn't even 100% decomfirmed...I think the Ness community is coping pretty well.

at least before the fanboys start bashing.

 

[JeffMan]

Translation of the original post: "I didn't get far in the game, so I resorted to reading the back of the box as my source of game plot data." Seriously. You obviously either didn't pay attention to the game at all, or you didn't get very far at all, because saying that Ness doesn't develop in EarthBound is... well, stupid. You need to understand that (A) it's conceivable that a character can develop in other ways that talking, and (B) a character expressing themself through talking is most certainly NOT the most crucial part of an RPG. Bear in mind that Ness is the only 'silent' character in the game (quoted, because there are actually three events in the game where Ness' personal thoughts are brought out through lengthy, meaningful phrases) and it's not too hard to observe what other people are saying about him in order to help an establishment of his character development.

That said, I don't want to come off as one of the "Ness Diehards" who won't accept that he's gone, because I'm looking forward to not having two exact clones in the game; more room for Jeff or Duster.

 

[Spellman]

Pokey Minch is the truly developed character of the series; one that both countries can say they know who he is.

 

[NessPaulaJeffPoo]

ness is my favorite nintendo character of all time, however, i came easily to accept that he was not in brawl. and im ok. i will miss him, but SSB is not what made me love ness. it was Earthbound. it was just cool to have him in SSB. and if they replaced him with Lucas, ok then. I will be more happy if this brings Mother 3 to America.

I would enjoy seeing an Earthbound rep though. Whether its Paula, Jeff, or Poo, i think it would be nice to not forget about Earthbound.

It at least needs to show up somewhere.

 

[RetroRhythm]

Pokey Minch is the truly developed character of the series; one that both countries can say they know who he is.

This is 100% true.

 

[DonkeyPirate]

I've never been an Earthbound fan, but I dont think they would opt to just get rid of ness. I am in the belief that all of the origional Smash Bros characters will be coming back. It only makes sense.

 

[RetroRhythm]

Dude, I'm a Graphic Designer. Dark text on black is not nearly as readable as a light color on black. Also, you should be using a Sans Serif font, cause Serifs aren't very readable on a monitor. Serif fonts typically have contrasting thick and thin line weights (which yours does), and when they are that small presented on a monitor it suffers from "dazzle" which is basically when some lines are so thin they are near impossible to make out. Not to mention that font was DEFINITELY not designed to be used for the web. The x-height is so small and cause of that it's harder to read the lower case letters (it's as if the lower case letters are at size 8 instead of 10 or so). So either up your font size or grab a serif, and make the color lighter, cause while nobody has voiced their complaints A LOT more people will simply opt not to read what you have to say because it DOES strain the eyes.

Sorry, but I simply just HAVE to comment on this...

Who exactly are you to tell someone what font they can and cannot use? If they weren't made to be used on the web, then they wouldn't be in the list of available fonts. I understand where you are coming from, but just because you bring graphic design logic to font does not mean anything other than you are overlooking things. I have no trouble whatsoever reading the guy's font, I however, have far more trouble reading red colored font following the standards you listed as opposed as to what the TC has chosen to make for his base font. The message he originally had is still there, and I just find it rude that all you have to say about it is the font is ugly.

 

[MookieRah]

Who exactly are you to tell someone what font they can and cannot use?

I didn't say he couldn't use it. I told him that if he actually wanted people to be able to read his posts easier he should change his font or up it's size, and to change it's color. This was in retaliation to him saying that others aren't complaining, when in fact a lot that find it bothersome won't complain they will simply ignore it. What he and some of you guys don't realize is that a lot of people will opt simply not to read his posts simply cause it's more trouble to do so. Especially on the internet, in which peoples' attention spans are usually shorter.

f they weren't made to be used on the web, then they wouldn't be in the list of available fonts.

No, you are wrong. Just because a font is available on the web it doesn't make it the most suitable font for the web. The people who code forums aren't graphic designers. MOST fonts available were not designed for the web. This is the case in virtually every serif font (which is usually based of a classic font that is hundreds of years old in the first place). If you don't believe me, look at it this way. The basic font on this forum is Verdana. It was actually designed for computer use. Here is an excerpt from wiki on the typeface:

Bearing similarities to humanist sans-serif typefaces such as Frutiger, Verdana was designed to be readable at small sizes on a computer screen. The lack of serifs, large x-height (heights of lower-case letters, as scaled to the letter x being exactly equal to one), wide proportions, loose letter-spacing, large counters (spaces inside partially enclosed portions of letters or symbols such as "c", "s", or curved quotation marks), and emphasized distinctions between similarly-shaped characters are chosen to increase readability. According to one long-running survey [1], the availability of Verdana is 94% on Windows (making it the second most common font on that platform) and 92.6% on computers running Macintosh OS.

Most people don't know anything about type, and I didn't know about it until I began my study as a graphic designer. I don't blame you guys for using crazy typefaces, but when someone calls me out on something that they are blatantly wrong about I'm going to explain to them why I said it.

I understand where you are coming from, but just because you bring graphic design logic to font does not mean anything other than you are overlooking things.

What am I overlooking? This part has me confused. If anything, people are overlooking his posts.

I have no trouble whatsoever reading the guy's font

Ok, well, answer me this. Which is easier to read, the base font this forum uses (Verdana) or his serif font (I think it's Georgia, but it may be Times New Roman... really hard to tell without really analyzing it)? Lets not pretend that it is equally easy to read, because when it comes to that it's obvious. Is his text readable. Yes, you can read it. Is it inviting. No, it is not. When text isn't inviting you run the risk of people ignoring it altogether.

I however, have far more trouble reading red colored font following the standards you listed as opposed as to what the TC has chosen to make for his base font.

I didn't post anything in red, and I will never post anything red on black (unless it's a pinkish, and that is a bit overly feminine for my tastes). Why is that? Because red is a very very tricky color. It comes off MUCH darker than it really is. For example, take an image with a lot of red in it and then desaturate it. The reds will become much darker than the other colors, even though as a pure color, it didn't look that dark. The situation with Red on Black is also the same as when it gets desaturated, in other words it's hard to read. The only thing red on black in my post is my board name, which is red because I'm a moderator.

The message he originally had is still there, and I just find it rude that all you have to say about it is the font is ugly.

I never said his font was ugly. I really like classic looking serif fonts. There is nothing wrong with them in the right setting, but this isn't it. Serifs were old style fonts designed for the body copy of books and printed materials, as such it isn't as easy to read on a screen that is 72 dpi.

 

[Level 9]

Er, what are you talking about when you say Mother 3 had character development for Lucas? If I remember correctly, he doesn't talk either.

It's like saying Crono from Chrono Trigger had a lot of character development, but ironically, he's the only one that has none at all.

While i've never had the chance to play Earthbound or Mother 3 sadly, I have played Chrono Trigger almost to the obsessive point back in the day & I can honestly say that Crono did have plenty of character development...

Somehow at some point in time (no pun intended) Crono was labeled as a mute because he never said anything you could read without the players help...

But he did in fact talk repeatedly during the game... You the player chose his words for him to help along with whatever path you wanted to go down to reach the end of the game...

So in a strange way it was ment to be like Crono had your personality even though he talked & had a role to play out of his own...

So while everyone else already had a story to tell you where helping make Crono's... I thought it was a brilliant system for character development myself...

 

[KernelColonel]

"There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now, and Lucas is very similar."

Let's rewind that.

"There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now, and Lucas is very similar."

Instant replay.

"There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now, and Lucas is very similar."

Slow mo

"uuuuuuuup untiiiiiiiil noooooooow"

That should do'er.

 

[Level 9]

I just look at this situation objectively... I mean lets face facts here, who has more say-so on the matter A. The Japanese or B. Everyone else...

The Japanese have the complete Mother series & everyone elsewhere only has the 2'nd instalment...

It's... Not really one of ours I'm afraid... They would have a MUCH stronger influence on the voting pole as to who they want to see in Brawl... And if there saying the new kid on the block then it's quite likely that it's time to say goodbye to the older one now...

 

[dan smith]

Eh, I didn't know you were a Graphic Designer Mookie...your brief typography lecture is spot on too.

Man, in all my time as a regular on the Ness boards, I've never seen so many people care about Ness. Seriously.

 

[Yukiwarashi]

Just to talk to those who point out Pokemon Trainer...Pokemon Trainer is a different case from Ness.

Pokemon Trainer Red has been in all 3 generations so far, and hints point to him being present in the fourth generation as well. In the first generation you play as him and him alone, and with the help of your Pokemon you save areas of Pallet Town and become a Pokemon Master. In Gold/Silver he is the strongest trainer in the game. In the third generation the first two Pokemon games were remade, allowing those new to the franchise to explore the world as Red (or his female counterpart). If the fourth generation follows through with a Gold/Silver remake, Red will show his face once again.

I haven't played Earthbound, but from what I've read, Ninten and Ness do not have the same luxury. In Earthbound's case, they're using the most recent hero. But for Pokemon that wouldn't work, because no matter what, in some form Red is always there, so he's a lot more iconic to both America and Japan.

 

[Goopygoo]

I don't understand why it matters so much. Lucas = Ness with changed look/animations. He has the same basic moves, and probably similar physics. Basically, if Mother 3 never existed, Ness would have the exact same "modifications" that Lucas has in Brawl.

So it wouldn't matter if Yoshi was replaced with Birdo? Or if Bowser was replaced with Wart? Quite frankly, the only reason SSB was popular in the first place was because people liked the characters. With that in mind, it would only make sense to put in characters a majority like.

As for the TC's post:
There are way too many logical fallacies there. If you'll remember, SSB is known for its amazing multiplayer. Seeing as how the multiplayer would come first, it would only make sense for popular characters to be chosen. And since multiplayer versus modes have no story, character development isn't important in the selection of characters.

Another reason why the "Character development" theory is BS. Captain Falcon. He has no character development, what makes him different? And no, it's not because of his "certain feel that differentiates him from the others." That doesn't imply character depth. IT'S AN OPINION. Character depth and development can only be revealed through interaction with other characters, their surroundings, and through their words. All the characters interact with each other the same way; Beating each other up. How they interact with their surroundings depends on the player. None of the characters say anything in SSB/M that give them any sort of depth. And what about IC and G&W? Absolutely no personalities in their original games.

So please, if you're going to argue against Ness, please use ideas that make sense.

Disclaimer: I am not a Ness fan or detractor. I want him to return, as I feel no non-clone characters should be removed. I am willing to except the fact he will not be returning.