Somebody play pokemon with me (Plus maybe tournaments?)

[exarch]

Warning: this post contains math!

Well, actually you can mathematically compute something like that. A couple examples:

1) If you compare Stone Edge with Iron Head, one is 100 Base with 80 Acc; the other is 80 Acc with 100 Base. If you attack 100 times with each of these moves, on average one will hit for 8000 total, and the other will hit for the same amount.

So, on average, the moves are exactly the same strength. Their expected values are mathematically equivalent, (disregarding secondary effects.)**

----

2) In the same manner, you can compute overall power for flinching moves too. Assuming you are faster, then Dark Pulse (has a 20% chance to flinch) will do 80 damage 80 percent of the time. (80*.8=64)

The other twenty % of the time, they will flinch, and you will get to do another 80 damage with 20% flinch rate. If they don't flinch then the second time you do 160 damage 20%*80%. (160*.2*.8=25.6)

If they do flinch the second time, that happens 20*20*80 percent of the time *240 damange. (240*(.2^2)*.8)=7.68

And onward you can go with this infinite series. 80*n*(2^(n-1))*.8
If I perhaps remembered my calc better I'd stick it into a formula, but Excel works too, and the sum of all of these parts is 100.

So the base damage for darkpulse if the pkmn is faster, is 100. => darkpulse is as good as earthquake, when you're the faster poke.

---

So the point of these is to show that you can mathematically take into account quick claw's 1/5 chance to work. If you attack with QC 100 times, 20 of them you'd attack first. With a base power more of 95, .2*95=19. So even though it might not feel like it when it happens because you're unlucky... luck has nothing to do with it. On average Jolteon would **** Salamence's ****. Play the match again and more often than not, Jolteon will have his way with Mence. (Play the match the first time and Jolt beats Mence, even if it doesn't always happen.)

Plus once Mence wrecks Jolt, just switch to your Aggron with QC and StoneEdge him. lol

---

** This is the reason why FireBlast is a better move the FlameThrower. 120*.85=102, 95*1.00= well 95 duh. But over 100 chances, Fireblast will do more damage than Fthrower. Actually 102 is the same base power as Return... probably not a coincidence; Return==Fireblast.

TL;DR
Yes, you CAN account for QC's probability, suck it up. It's math. Quick Claw's not broken when you look at averages, or expected damages.

 

[XIF]

Well, actually you can mathematically compute something like that. A couple examples:

1) If you compare Stone Edge with Iron Head, one is 100 Base with 80 Acc; the other is 80 Acc with 100 Base. If you attack 100 times with each of these moves, on average one will hit for 8000 total, and the other will hit for the same amount.

So, on average, the moves are exactly the same strength. Their expected values are mathematically equivalent, (disregarding secondary effects.)**

----

2) In the same manner, you can compute overall power for flinching moves too. Assuming you are faster, then Dark Pulse (has a 20% chance to flinch) will do 80 damage 80 percent of the time. (80*.8=64)

The other twenty % of the time, they will flinch, and you will get to do another 80 damage with 20% flinch rate. If they don't flinch then the second time you do 160 damage 20%*80%. (160*.2*.8=25.6)

If they do flinch the second time, that happens 20*20*80 percent of the time *240 damange. (240*(.2^2)*.8)=7.68

And onward you can go with this infinite series. 80*n*(2^(n-1))*.8
If I perhaps remembered my calc better I'd stick it into a formula, but Excel works too, and the sum of all of these parts is 100.

So the base damage for darkpulse if the pkmn is faster, is 100. => darkpulse is as good as earthquake, when you're the faster poke.

---

So the point of these is to show that you can mathematically take into account quick claw's 1/5 chance to work. If you attack with QC 100 times, 20 of them you'd attack first. With a base power more of 95, .2*95=19. So even though it might not feel like it when it happens because you're unlucky... luck has nothing to do with it. On average Jolteon would **** Salamence's ****. Play the match again and more often than not, Jolteon will have his way with Mence. (Play the match the first time and Jolt beats Mence, even if it doesn't always happen.)

Plus once Mence wrecks Jolt, just switch to your Aggron with QC and StoneEdge him. lol

---

** This is the reason why FireBlast is a better move the FlameThrower. 120*.85=102, 95*1.00= well 95 duh. But over 100 chances, Fireblast will do more damage than Fthrower. Actually 102 is the same base power as Return... probably not a coincidence; Return==Fireblast.

TL;DR
Yes, you CAN account for QC's probability, suck it up. It's math. Quick Claw's not broken when you look at averages, or expected damages.

All that math and yet you are still wrong.

The examples you gave are correct, but do not in any way translate to quick claw simply increasing damage mathematically. You're doing the same damage each turn, you're just switching which person goes first, and in this case, damage over time doesn't matter because it's a one hit kill either way. The pertinent information is that it's over in one turn. Flinch isn't the same because it prevents your opponent from attacking. Fireblast isn't the same because it's accuracy is low, and over time it would deal less damage. Quick claw changes the order of everything and just ****s everything up.

The reason why it's so busted is because it so heavily shifts the metagame away from strategy and into pushing your luck because if it works it's an easy win. Even with all random stuff in pokemon, it's not nearly as bad as a quick claw activating on something like rampardos. Rampardos can feasibly sweep a team with proper entry hazards with just an adamant nature and 252 atk EVs, if only he couldn't be touched. but a rampardos like that is little more than a deoxys attack form in OU (at least 20% of the time).

I'd quit pokemon if they allowed deoxys attack in OU 20% of the time.

PS: Fire blast is still shaky business. The statistical outcome of fireblast may suggest that it's the better move, but that'd really only be applicable if pokemon were played with thousands of pokemon per team and they stayed in on moves for like 40 or 50 turns. Fire blast has 8 PP I believe, and missing one means you'd need to land another 5 to just break even, and that's if you're opponent is incompetent enough to not be able to kill you by then, and missing once doesn't just mean you're doing less damage, it means you're probably dead.

 

[exarch]

<3 Xif, I'm enjoying this, I hope you are too.

Also, I will agree that only the turn which kills a poke is (generally) the one that matters. But that just means QC is useless until that turn. So the maximum effect it will have on a battle is about 1/5 of the time. That's not a huge amount. Your situation with Mence and Jolt more than likely wouldn't happen, because Mence is pretty quick anyways; and benefits from lifeorb or choice stuff moreso anyways.

Spoiler

I say generally, because stat lowering or status moves can benefit from being used first.

And so what if Rampardos could become a game deciding poke anyways? He's NU, and could use a tier jump. The point of the argument is by randomly banning certain things, they take away strats which might happen to be the best strategy available for certain pokes. What if your favorite poke was Rampardos, wouldn't you think that banning QC was just not fair?

Meanwhile Scizor and Mamoswine get BP and IShard. I don't care that they banned QC, but they need to ban the other priority moves too.

If QC was allowed, it isn't going to make any of the already OU pokes worse, and not every team is going to be willing to roll the dice with Rampardos or other obvious QC pokes. It won't be a part of every battle, and even those in which it is included, it won't always effect the outcome.

 

[XIF]

<3 Xif, I'm enjoying this, I hope you are too.

Also, I will agree that only the turn which kills a poke is (generally) the one that matters. But that just means QC is useless until that turn. So the maximum effect it will have on a battle is about 1/5 of the time. That's not a huge amount. Your situation with Mence and Jolt more than likely wouldn't happen, because Mence is pretty quick anyways; and benefits from lifeorb or choice stuff moreso anyways.

Spoiler

I say generally, because stat lowering or status moves can benefit from being used first.

And so what if Rampardos could become a game deciding poke anyways? He's NU, and could use a tier jump. The point of the argument is by randomly banning certain things, they take away strats which might happen to be the best strategy available for certain pokes. What if your favorite poke was Rampardos, wouldn't you think that banning QC was just not fair?

Meanwhile Scizor and Mamoswine get BP and IShard. I don't care that they banned QC, but they need to ban the other priority moves too.

If QC was allowed, it isn't going to make any of the already OU pokes worse, and not every team is going to be willing to roll the dice with Rampardos or other obvious QC pokes. It won't be a part of every battle, and even those in which it is included, it won't always effect the outcome.

Rampardos wouldn't jump from NU to OU, it'd be NU to lolRayquaza tier.

Priority moves like I said are balanced by their low BP, and plus it's only one move. If Scizor got STAB+Technician on Bullet Punch, Ice Shard, Mach Punch, and Shadow Sneak, then yeah, he'd be friggin ridiculous and probably banned, but one move with a relatively weak attacking type is nothing too too ridiculous (don't get me wrong, BP Scizor is still dumb), but at least their are viable options against it.

Quick claw applies to everymove, so you get the absurd power of a STAB+Technician BP, but also the freedom of type coverage, which is how it is different from the other attacks. As a matter of fact, Bullet Punch scizor is really only good because of technician. STAB alone doesn't make it as good as it really is now. That's why Ice Shard Mamoswine just isn't that good. (Still good though). That's the benefit you get with the typing, and you take the good and the bad that comes with the typing.

 

[verycoolguy]

delete this post

 

[RJsHouse]

holy crap i never knew pokemon was so in depth.

I just played yellow and silver lol

 

[verycoolguy]

He's NU, and could use a tier jump.

No one's going to change a rule in competition for the sole purpose of having a character better.

What if your favorite poke was Rampardos, wouldn't you think that banning QC was just not fair?

No. Having a Pokemon with WTFHAX Attack go first no matter what, with no effort in trying to increase their Speed, isn't.

Besides, Ninjask can Baton Pass multiple Speed boosts to him easily, and maybe a Swords Dance if he's lucky.

It won't be a part of every battle, and even those in which it is included, it won't always effect the outcome.

Well the fact that it can affect the outcome of the battle out of luck, means that a ban is justified.

 

[exarch]

Rampardos wouldn't jump from NU to OU, it'd be NU to lolRayquaza tier.

Quick claw applies to everymove, so you get the absurd power of a STAB+Technician BP, but also the freedom of type coverage, which is how it is different from the other attacks. As a matter of fact, Bullet Punch scizor is really only good because of technician. STAB alone doesn't make it as good as it really is now. That's why Ice Shard Mamoswine just isn't that good. (Still good though). That's the benefit you get with the typing, and you take the good and the bad that comes with the typing.

But quick claw only works 1/5 of the time... that's less than what Scizors getting on 1/4 of his moves. As opposed to only getting one move for it to work with, it only works 1/5 of the time.

And the first statement is obviously a huge exaggeration, or everyone would run a trickroom team with Rampardos, or run ninjask passing to him.


--It should be pointed out that a LifeOrb'd poke with a base 130 attack has a higher attack than Rampardos+QC. And giving Ramp a QC is an effort in increasing speed; he can't use any other item.

LifeOrb Mence isn't broken, neither is QC Ramp.

 

[verycoolguy]

And giving Ramp a QC is an effort in increasing speed; he can't use any other item.

That isn't increasing speed. That's just an auto-priority that goes first no matter what, no matter how slow the Pokemon was.
Using Choice Scarf, Rock Polish, or Salac Berries are efforts to increase speed, as it reflects on his Speed stat. With Quick Claw, it doesn't matter if his speed stat is 35.

LifeOrb Mence isn't broken, neither is QC Ramp.

Life Orb Mence can be revenge killed by faster opponents or by strong priority moves. QC Ramp still has that chance to attack before his revenge killer does. Life Orb has that annoying 10% recoil to try to balance the item out.

 

[Loto]

If anyone wants to play I'll make a team really quick.

 

[exarch]

****

Alakazam, Rhyperior, and Umbreon are UU now.

And Roserade is OU?

And how the **** did Drifblim become UU? Gardevoir had an understandable bump but still... my NU team now has 2 UUs in it.

 

[Rayku]

****

Alakazam, Rhyperior, and Umbreon are UU now.

And Roserade is OU?

And how the **** did Drifblim become UU? Gardevoir had an understandable bump but still... my NU team now has 2 UUs in it.

Lol. Smogon tier lists are such bull****. They're based solely on usage, so it's one big popularity contest.

Slowbro should NEVER be in Underused, nor should Milotic.

I am glad that Umbreon is UU. Makes me want to play that specific tier now

 

[XIF]

so Rayku.

I say we get started on this tournament with our special rule.

Next tuesday night sound alright? I can make the topic and the ruleset really simple.

 

[Loto]

Lol. Smogon tier lists are such bull****. They're based solely on usage, so it's one big popularity contest.

Slowbro should NEVER be in Underused, nor should Milotic.

I am glad that Umbreon is UU. Makes me want to play that specific tier now

We need to do a randomm batttttllleeee. lol

Tournament sounds liek fun. I'll make a team for it. Maybe a UU tournament too. But yeah the tier's are kinda dumb. Rhyperior can do a ****ton in OU alone I can't even think what he can do in UU....Lol.

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

They're in UU now...? Alakazam really? sweet I guess. did Yanmega get booted to BL yet?

 

[exarch]

BL doesn't exist for Shoddy. Same 7 are in it as before.

What they should have done was bump Ala/Rhy/Umb/Rose all into BL, but instead they moved all of them "two" tiers instead.

And yea, the popularity contest method of tiering is stupid. CF is top tier in Melee.

We should all start playing with Luvdisc to get it into OU.

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

I'm down. Luvdisc team go. I'll throw in regular OU stuff like Scizor and then save Luvdisc for last to make the opponent have a good laugh.

 

[verycoolguy]

****, Charizard and Magmortar are NU.
Something must be wrong here, but Porygon2 is listed as NU now. This doesn't make sense seeing as Porygon2 had almost the same amount of Usage in August. I thought he would have moved up.

 

[XIF]

I feel bad for UU players.

But i'm an OU player, I don't even care. I just think Latias should still be Uber.

 

[CRASHiC]

****, Charizard and Magmortar are NU.
Something must be wrong here, but Porygon2 is listed as NU now. This doesn't make sense seeing as Porygon2 had almost the same amount of Usage in August. I thought he would have moved up.

The reason they only count use in UU is to make sure things don't get crazy in UU.
For instance, Exeguctor kind of sucks, EXCEPT in Uber, where he is a beast to be reconciled with. However, he shouldn't be put in Uber simply because he can compete in uber, and readily does. He is still considered a fair choice in UU and NU.