Some Thoughts on Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z

[Rubyiris]

SSJ4 isn't canon anyways.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Lol, what if Raditz had ever become a super saiyan? Or better yet, SSJ3.

So much hair....

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Depends on what you define canon. Personally I just say whatever I like is canon.

lol SSJ3 Raditz would be dragging that crap along the ground. Interesting that Goku's hair is a lot like his brother's when he goes SSJ3.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

If Raditz just went SSJ 1 or 2, it would all stand up. That'd be funny too

 

[Fuelbi]

This is why I'm hoping one day Toriyama makes at least one picture with Raditz as a Super Saiyan so I can finally have my mind at rest over what he looks like

And I just keep cannon what's officially been given as cannon. As GT never happened according to Akira, I'm 100% fine with that as GT was a **** up. The only part I liked about that show was the theme song and then again only the Japanese version the English one bites ***


That said am I the only one who watches DB in dubs that aren't English or Japanese? I always get weird faces when I tell people I always watch DBZ in Spanish since I grew up with those dubs

 

[Metal Overlord]

I'd rather see an SSJ3 Nappa

 

[Teran]

I'd rather see an SSJ3 Nappa

"I did it to cure my baldness!"

 

[Holder of the Heel]

[COLLAPSE="Nappa with hair"]

[/COLLAPSE]

He'd be like a cabbage patch man with shining gold hair.

Edit: Er wait I meant one of those troll things. XD I need to know my toys better.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

He'd look like a troll doll with his hair standing up on end? You mean exactly like EVERYONE'S hair when they go SSJ, or Vegeta's hair ALL THE TIME?

Also, I'd bet money that Akira Toriyama doesn't even remember that Raditz exists, so you'll never see that picture. He has horrible memory, which is why Launch dissapeared, and why Piccolo's origin story is told like 3 different times during DBZ, and it's different every time. He forgot.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Akira officially stated that that Dragonball MMO, Dragonball Online, is the true post-DBZ chronology. So DBGT is both non-canon and a retcon.

lol@Dragonball Online though. Majin Buu magically makes itself a mate, procreates, and begins the Majin race in that timeline.

 

[vanderzant]

Good read OP.

Interesting point about the Buu Saga giving Vegeta's character some closure, but I remember reading a rumour somewhere that Toriyama originally intended for Piccolo to be possessed, but due to Vegeta being a much more popular character (at least in the eyes of most fans) he went with him instead. I think it would of been a cool throwback to DB. Finally a rematch between Goku and Piccolo where they are on even terms. Though this might just be fanboy speculation.

I really need to watch DB in its entirety... I've only seen a bunch of random episodes on TV because they'd always start fresh every couple of weeks.

 

[Johnknight1]

I agree on DBZ. There was way too much filler. Like way too much. Crap took too long. The shifting from humor to action would have been smoother if it didn't take Goku nearly 2 dozen episodes to get to King Kai, and then what seems like 20 times as long to reach Planet Namek.

However, I gotta agree that Dragon Ball's pacing is better. It slowly moves away from comedy to action, and it felt more natural. Sure, the King Piccolo saga seemed to drag on (as well as the Red Ribbon saga), and the aftermath to the King Piccolo saga was garbage. But still. It was mostly good, all of the characters stayed relevant, and the show was both funny and exciting. It also kept introducing solid new main characters, and some pretty good supporting characters (including that one chick who changed every time she sneezed; she should have been in DBZ/Grand Trap). Sadly, a lot of them disappeared in DBZ and DBGT or rarely appeared. They should have at least appeared in a few more of the DBZ/Grand Trap (as I call it) episodes where everyone isn't fighting.

Now in DBZ, a bunch of great characters got super weak and worthless, or in the case of Tien and Piccolo, rarely appear or fight. That's okay with a few side characters, but Tien and Piccolo were main characters for most of DB/DBZ. Another problem is the lack of storyline developments.

You kinda nailed it in the Cell Saga (although to be fair, some of them were very well developed). Tien after he held off Cell didn't do much. He also wasn't immediately put into a life threatening situation. The drama when Cell reached his second form was sadly too minimal there. Also, all characters like Yamcha and Chotszu did was talk and nothing else. They are suppose to be fighters, dang it! And then Goku literally did absolutely nothing but save both Tien and Piccolo. I mean, it would have just made sense for him to have fought Cell and lost. And then there is Krillin, holding the key to killing the Androids. Not just does he not fight, he just sits there and contemplates things. There's nothing wrong with him contemplating things, but he should be helping the cause by fighting.

And then all of this is more apparent in the "Cell Games," in which only say 3 characters do anything (Vegeta, Goku, and Gohan). Oh, and that's after the Hercule (or Mr. Satan as I prefer to call him) wastes 3 hours of your life. Then all the other "fighters" there do absolutely nothing.

If the writers just found a way to keep those characters at least almost as strong as say the best fighters, it would have made it more interesting. Perhaps even one of them (not named Vegeta) could have their power corrupt them. The story/series would be a lot more dramatic that way.

Lastly, Grand Trap's story was dead awful, and SSJ4 Goku somehow being weaker than regular kid Goku was lulz-worthy. Don't even mention that awful fail rap song.

 

[Beat!]

It should've ended after Cell saga. Would've been perfect (or at least much better). Buu saga was pretty meh and unnecessary.

GT was terrible. It had a few good moments, but it was still terrible.

 

[Johnknight1]

I pretty much agree with people on SSJ4. It was kinda lame looking. It should at least have still had gold hair, or gold chest hair. Plus the pants are ugly. SSJ3... man, that form was just awesome looking. I remember seeing that for the first time and I was like "woaw... what a BAMF."

Goku didn't even remember Chi Chi when she came up to marry him. XD He also did not raise a single dollar for his family, that fact is even mentioned in one of the episodes I think in the Cell saga. Although, he isn't necessarily a bad father and husband in the sense that he does love his family very much and trains to protect them.

FALSE! Goku won the tournament, remember=??? Apparently Goku and his family can live off that. Also, Goku's secret underground

Spoiler

operation of selling sensu beans.

What you guys mention about how GT ended I can understand. I remember talking to my brother about the last arc in GT. He mentioned that it was the best way to end the series, and I found myself agreeing with that. The amazing Dragon Balls where the series gets its namesake becomes the ultimate enemies. The concept is very good, yeah. The idea of a virus thing created by the fallen Tuffle race to kill the Saiyan race was also a good concept, it just wasn't very good because it could only be as good as GT would let it be (and it didn't have to be called Baby..)

I agree with this. DBGT's ending made sense (although 5/7 of the Shenrons were pretty suckish, and too short), and the very ending was actually excellently executed.

As for the Tuffle/Baby saga, I also agree. The concept of finding the 7 Dragon Balls throughout the universe was awesome (although Goten, Gohan, Piccolo, etc. should have gone). However, a lot of the places they went were stupid. And the Baby saga as a whole was terribly executed. Plus again, Frieza, Cooler, and their father were suppose to be the strongest things in the universe.

Another thing I hate is how the supposedly psychic characters rarely use their psychic powers. Seriously, that would have added an awesome element to DBZ and Grand Trap. Not just fighting crazy super moves, ki energy blasts, and typical fighting moves, moves that use part of nature/the surround environment, but also psychic powers.

Lastly, I hate how Kao-Ken magically disappears after the Saiyan saga. It is only mentioned once after that (when Goku is fighting Freeza), and is never heard from again.

 

[Marc]

Didn't see this topic till now, I'll stick to responding to the OP for the time being.

There are several myths surrounding where Toriyama would have wanted to end it, but it's moreso about where he could have ended it. This guide might be worth your while: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/intended-end/

It is obvious that Toriyama initially did not intend for the series to run as long as it did, but when compared to several current shonen series his work didn't really overstay its welcome. The Buu arc was arguably the worst, but it had some fresh elements (fusion, return to comedy) and it's mostly the anime adaptation that dragged it out. I'm not under the impression that fan demand impacted the series much, it is a known fact though that Toriyama's editors had varying degrees of influence. His editor during the Jinzouningen/Cell arc for example was responsible for new bad guys being introduced in a quick succession, whereas the Buu arc editor let Toriyama do his own thing for the most part.

As far as your criticism goes, I'd like to point out that there never was a distinction between DragonBall and Z in the manga, it was all published as DragonBall. There is sort of a rift in terms of the universe opening up with Raditz' arrival, but other than that it's an arbitrary cutoff point determined by the anime staff. You can argue that the insane increase in battle powers in the early Z part wasn't necessary, but the shift to a larger scale is overall a natural progression. You should also be careful not to judge the manga by the way the anime dragged things out, or how the American dub westernized things.

You are right that many side characters go from being somewhat relevant to completely useless, but it is a misconception that they did much even in DB. Krillin doesn't really get a spotlight till Namek, Yamcha wins a grand total of one battle (because of a gimmick!) in the entire series and Chaozu was comic relief from the start. Tenshinhan and Piccolo are sort of constant factors and it's definitely not just Goku that does things (GT is Goku Time, but let's not get into that), but it's obvious that the Saiyan characters end up running the show. This probably has a lot to do with powerups being easy to write in for them and overall popularity. My point here is that Toriyama had no qualms introducing and dismissing characters since the very beginning. It's also worth mentioning that he intended for Gohan to become the main character after Cell, but he just didn't really work out in that capacity.

I do miss Lunch. =[

 

[Holder of the Heel]

You can argue that the insane increase in battle powers in the early Z part wasn't necessary, but the shift to a larger scale is overall a natural progression. You should also be careful not to judge the manga by the way the anime dragged things out, or how the American dub westernized things.

A natural progression? Have you seen the power level's and the way fight started to become executed? The initial increase wasn't needed at all, and it kept jumping up higher and higher because instead of focusing on the technique and powers, focusing on that aspect, Akira chucked the concept almost entirely, and thus necessitated a god awful increase of power levels for everyone throughout the entire story. The diversity and strategy of techniques, mind powers, and magic would have saved everyone from that.

You are right that many side characters go from being somewhat relevant to completely useless, but it is a misconception that they did much even in DB. Krillin doesn't really get a spotlight till Namek, Yamcha wins a grand total of one battle (because of a gimmick!) in the entire series and Chaozu was comic relief from the start.

In terms of accomplishments yeah they didn't drop too much, but in focus they did drastically. And accomplishments isn't the focus, those things took focus because of the change in focus of DBZ to serious battling. Accomplishments? Who cared about them in Dragon Ball, which was just all fun?

I do miss Lunch. =[

She liked Tien too, so sad.

He'd look like a troll doll with his hair standing up on end? You mean exactly like EVERYONE'S hair when they go SSJ, or Vegeta's hair ALL THE TIME?

...Well.. yeah. XD

Also, I'd bet money that Akira Toriyama doesn't even remember that Raditz exists, so you'll never see that picture. He has horrible memory, which is why Launch dissapeared, and why Piccolo's origin story is told like 3 different times during DBZ, and it's different every time. He forgot.

Exactly.

Akira officially stated that that Dragonball MMO, Dragonball Online, is the true post-DBZ chronology. So DBGT is both non-canon and a retcon.

lol@Dragonball Online though. Majin Buu magically makes itself a mate, procreates, and begins the Majin race in that timeline.

I really want to play that though, I always wanted one, and one day some months ago I was surfing the net and I realized there had been one for a long while, just not here. =/

I pretty much agree with people on SSJ4. It was kinda lame looking. It should at least have still had gold hair, or gold chest hair. Plus the pants are ugly. SSJ3... man, that form was just awesome looking. I remember seeing that for the first time and I was like "woaw... what a BAMF."

Except, "...Where are his eyebrows? o.o Did that hair go towards his head?"

FALSE! Goku won the tournament, remember=??? Apparently Goku and his family can live off that. Also, Goku's secret underground

Spoiler

operation of selling sensu beans.

True, I guess she only said that because DBZ has to have at least one inconsistency per episode or else everyone is fired.

I agree with this. DBGT's ending made sense (although 5/7 of the Shenrons were pretty suckish, and too short), and the very ending was actually excellently executed.

Another thing I hate is how the supposedly psychic characters rarely use their psychic powers. Seriously, that would have added an awesome element to DBZ and Grand Trap. Not just fighting crazy super moves, ki energy blasts, and typical fighting moves, moves that use part of nature/the surround environment, but also psychic powers.

Totally agree with you John.

Lastly, I hate how Kao-Ken magically disappears after the Saiyan saga. It is only mentioned once after that (when Goku is fighting Freeza), and is never heard from again.

I think Akira forgot about it, because it isn't shown at all in the fight and Tien goes, "He can still use Kaio-Ken!" And Akira was like, "...Er... yeah, he was using it the whole time, you just couldn't see. "

 

[Metal Overlord]

And then there is Krillin, holding the key to killing the Androids. Not just does he not fight, he just sits there and contemplates things. There's nothing wrong with him contemplating things, but he should be helping the cause by fighting.

Krillin pretty much sold the gang out twice for a piece of Android 18 *** lol

 

[Marc]

A natural progression? Have you seen the power level's and the way fight started to become executed? The initial increase wasn't needed at all, and it kept jumping up higher and higher because instead of focusing on the technique and powers, focusing on that aspect, Akira chucked the concept almost entirely, and thus necessitated a god awful increase of power levels for everyone throughout the entire story. The diversity and strategy of techniques, mind powers, and magic would have saved everyone from that.

Virtually every shonen series ever at some point takes things to a larger scale. It was necessary in the sense that all known threats were eliminated and it sells it a lot better than shows like Bleach and Naruto where every powerup comes out of thin air and a self-contained universe levels up for no apparent reason. If you watch the last tournament in DB, the start of Z is really not that jarring and it doesn't quite become a powerhouse carnival till past Freeza. I also beg to differ on techniques falling to the wayside, if anything you got more of those, while in DB it was mostly martial arts with some trademark moves mixed inbetween. I guess they became more generic and it's not like I don't think the series has flaws, but if something runs for a long time it will have to go somewhere. I don't think it ever really jumped the shark, but that's just my opinion.

In terms of accomplishments yeah they didn't drop too much, but in focus they did drastically. And accomplishments isn't the focus, those things took focus because of the change in focus of DBZ to serious battling. Accomplishments? Who cared about them in Dragon Ball, which was just all fun?

All fun? Have you not seen the last 50 episodes or so (22nd Tenkaichi Budokai onwards) where many people get brutally murdered and the overall tone is serious? Once again, for the author and everyone who read the manga there was never a distinction. I also don't understand what you mean by focus, Goku is on his own in DB a lot more than he is in Z, where there are several parts where he is not partaking in anything until very late.

As for Kaio-ken, no one forgot about anything. It's a multiplier that puts a lot of strain on the body and we know from the Daizenshuu that the SSJ forms are also essentially multipliers. You can't stack those (that would be ********), though there is a filler scene in the afterlife tournament where Goku briefly uses Kaio-ken as a SSJ. The author is definitely known to be forgetful, but it's not that bad and many inconsistencies are caused by the anime adaptation only.

 

[Johnknight1]

@ Metal
All Krillin had to do was kill her and then revive her as a human.

@ Holder
If Kao-Ken stayed relevant, Yamcha could have at least some value, Tien would have been able to stay constantly relevant, Krillin could have remained as Goku's #2 bro (although there is nothing wrong with like 10 other characters being stronger than him, as long as he stands a chance), and so on.

Also, I never get why Cell didn't try to absorb Android 16. That made no sense to me. It would have been a perfect plot twist if Android 20 wasn't Dr. Gerro (I don't care about the spelling), and that he gathered the Dragon Balls after Cell's death, revived Cell and Android 16, had Cell absorb Android 16, and then absorbed Cell's powers after Cell loses to the Z fighters (even though they never refer to themselves as that).

Lastly, all the DBZ movies and movie plots are pretty much awful. I just wanted to throw that out there!

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Virtually every shonen series ever at some point takes things to a larger scale. It was necessary in the sense that all known threats were eliminated and it sells it a lot better than shows like Bleach and Naruto where every powerup comes out of thin air and a self-contained universe levels up for no apparent reason. If you watch the last tournament in DB, the start of Z is really not that jarring and it doesn't quite become a powerhouse carnival till past Freeza. I also beg to differ on techniques falling to the wayside, if anything you got more of those, while in DB it was mostly martial arts with some trademark moves mixed inbetween. I guess they became more generic and it's not like I don't think the series has flaws, but if something runs for a long time it will have to go somewhere. I don't think it ever really jumped the shark, but that's just my opinion.

A lot of the time people power up out of thin air. That happens consistently, especially when Goku isn't around. This is because the rift between evil and good is too large, so the good must receive these boosts.

You get more techniques in the Strongest Under the Heaven's fights (especially with Roshi, Tien, etc.) than you ever do anywhere in DBZ. It isn't even close. The closest thing to techniques in DBZ are blasts that are called something different, although they are essentially not different. Spells vanished, mind techniques only really appeared with Guldo and Frieza moving things with his mind. Cell copied everyone prior to him (some of these moves introduced in DB) and hardly used them (especially in the manga). In the Buu saga we got fusion and Gotenks added some interesting techniques, but beyond that there is little still.

All fun? Have you not seen the last 50 episodes or so (22nd Tenkaichi Budokai onwards) where many people get brutally murdered and the overall tone is serious?

Read what I posted in the OP and what you quoted. DB become more serious towards the end, which means less fun, and the idea of measuring characters by their accomplishments begins to start brewing in our minds. I never denied otherwise.

As for Kaio-ken, no one forgot about anything. It's a multiplier that puts a lot of strain on the body and we know from the Daizenshuu that the SSJ forms are also essentially multipliers. You can't stack those (that would be ********), though there is a filler scene in the afterlife tournament where Goku briefly uses Kaio-ken as a SSJ.

You forget that Kaio-ken was never shown in the manga or the anime in the entirety of the Frieza fight. When Goku is losing real bad they raise the question of him needing it, but they pretend he has been using it this entire time. He hasn't, there was no indication of him having done so. Everytime before that he has done it you can see and hear him do it.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Er sorry, double post. Meant to add this to my previous one. ^^;

@ Metal
All Krillin had to do was kill her and then revive her as a human.

But the explosion would have blowed her up John!

Ahhh, the power of love. So unjustified and so powerful that you will put the world at jeopardy for it.

@ Holder
If Kao-Ken stayed relevant, Yamcha could have at least some value, Tien would have been able to stay constantly relevant, Krillin could have remained as Goku's #2 bro (although there is nothing wrong with like 10 other characters being stronger than him, as long as he stands a chance), and so on.

I have wondered this. King Kai lets on that Yamcha and everyone appeared to him much faster than Goku did (this superior to him when he had made the trip along the snake). The only thing I guess that could have prevented them is that because they are humans they aren't dedicated enough to training as Goku was so he was the only one who could master it, though really that is me making up an excuse for Akira.

Akira already at that point is known for adding nothing new and interesting to the characters during time skips or long periods where people aren't around, despite them training for large chunks of time. This took place a lot in DB as well, so it is not spared from that criticism. Those moments of anticipation to see how they have grown always disappoints, they practically learn anything new in the years that go under the view of the manga.

Also, I never get why Cell didn't try to absorb Android 16. That made no sense to me. It would have been a perfect plot twist if Android 20 wasn't Dr. Gerro (I don't care about the spelling), and that he gathered the Dragon Balls after Cell's death, revived Cell and Android 16, had Cell absorb Android 16, and then absorbed Cell's powers after Cell loses to the Z fighters (even though they never refer to themselves as that).

16 was purely mechanical and thus couldn't be absorbed.

Lastly, all the DBZ movies and movie plots are pretty much awful. I just wanted to throw that out there!

Trying to fit them in the time lines is always a pain too.

The worst thing about them though is their endings. All of them either don't make sense power level wise, logic wise, or canon wise. (Super Saiyan Goku using Spirit Bomb in the android movie, the Dust move in the Junemba movie which somehow destroys all evil (perfect random ki move for the win?), the eternal dragon spawning from Goku's fist, etc.)

The one that angers me most is the Broly trilogy. The first movie is AMAZING. Like almost entirely filled up with Broly massacring the Z fighters, and in the time line, it shows that he is stronger than even Perfect Cell (it is supposed to be in the 10 days before the Cell games). It is like the writers wanted to make this unbeatable fighter and at the very end of the script they are like, "Okay so now the good guys have to win so they... er.. uh.. oh ****." Haha they then try to tell us that all of the Z fighters almost dead and Goku beaten to the point where he can't move combine their chi and he comes out so much stronger than Broly (who again is shown stronger than Perfect Cell) enough to take him out with one punch.

Then the second movie comes along, they choose the worst characters to fight him (Trunks and Goten, Gohan who hasn't been training, and... Videl. -__- ) Awful fight scenes, then the beam struggle at the end still to this day does not make sense to me. Goku coming down, Trunk's blasts stopping Broly's ******** attempts to power his ball of mass destruction, Gohan's, Goku's, and Goten's blast being strong enough to win and push Broly to the Sun (Broly has even received a Zenkai, mind you), and the fact that when they show them winning, it shows the ball suspended in the air being shot through (that didn't even make sense, they were just in a power struggle?!)

Then Bio Broly. 'Nuff said.

 

[Marc]

A lot of the time people power up out of thin air. That happens consistently, especially when Goku isn't around. This is because the rift between evil and good is too large, so the good must receive these boosts.

Those boosts still happen as a result of training, most of the time. It gets a bit sketchy with the unlocking of potential on Namek, but otherwise it's all transformations or fusion. In that regard you should appreciate the humans becoming useless, there is no plausible (in-universe) way for them to keep up and at least it wasn't forced.

You forget that Kaio-ken was never shown in the manga or the anime in the entirety of the Frieza fight. When Goku is losing real bad they raise the question of him needing it, but they pretend he has been using it this entire time. He hasn't, there was no indication of him having done so. Everytime before that he has done it you can see and hear him do it.

Kaio-ken is never clearly shown in the manga by virtue of it being black and white, you don't see the red aura. This is why it's awkward in the anime for Goku's Kaio-ken to not be visibile initially, but in the manga it's just the observation that he was already using it and as such does not have any reserves against Freeza. This is something that is mentioned mid-chapter as Goku gets beaten up, so it's very unlikely that Toriyama forgot about it or retconned something that was in the very same chapter.

I have wondered this. King Kai lets on that Yamcha and everyone appeared to him much faster than Goku did (this superior to him when he had made the trip along the snake). The only thing I guess that could have prevented them is that because they are humans they aren't dedicated enough to training as Goku was so he was the only one who could master it, though really that is me making up an excuse for Akira.

Goku was exceptional in his ability to master Kaio's techniques, the others apparently weren't. It's not a given for everyone to learn everything and it would make things rather dull. Even if they had mastered it, 30 times nothing is still nothing. =P I mean, would you really have enjoyed for four otherwise irrelevant characters to all have Kaio-ken and be able to land like one big hit before straining their body too much? Tenshinhan already has that sort of dynamic with his Shin Kikoho.

It's rather weird, but Goku coming down temporarily in movie 10 can be ascribed to the Dragon Balls clearly doing something at that point. I think that's what they were going for at least.

 

[Metal Overlord]

All the movies were awful? The non-canon ones, right? Because The History of Trunks and Bardock: The Father of Goku is seriously some of the best **** to ever come out of DBZ, and I liked the Cooler movies

 

[Marc]

The Bardock and Trunks specials are semi-canon. Bardock was briefly shown in the manga after the TV special had aired, which Toriyama did not have much to do with. He did show Trunks' past in the manga, but the TV special greatly expanded upon it and changed some things around (in the manga Trunks was already SSJ while Gohan was still alive). I agree they're both very solid specials.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

>_>

I'm probably the only person alive that enjoyed the Garlic Jr. movie.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Kaio-ken is never clearly shown in the manga by virtue of it being black and white, you don't see the red aura. This is why it's awkward in the anime for Goku's Kaio-ken to not be visibile initially, but in the manga it's just the observation that he was already using it and as such does not have any reserves against Freeza. This is something that is mentioned mid-chapter as Goku gets beaten up, so it's very unlikely that Toriyama forgot about it or retconned something that was in the very same chapter.

Kaio-ken has an appearance more than just "red". Have you seen him use Kaio-ken before?

Goku was exceptional in his ability to master Kaio's techniques, the others apparently weren't. It's not a given for everyone to learn everything and it would make things rather dull. Even if they had mastered it, 30 times nothing is still nothing. =P I mean, would you really have enjoyed for four otherwise irrelevant characters to all have Kaio-ken and be able to land like one big hit before straining their body too much? Tenshinhan already has that sort of dynamic with his Shin Kikoho.

They had more than nothing, it could have kept them in the show further. Plus they could have learned more techniques. The only thing they got out of it is "more power", which you can't even show because 1) power level change isn't visible, it only does more damage or less damage and 2) everyone else and the bad guys increase too much so the ratio pretty much remains the same. To say the humans couldn't feasibly keep up with them is a bit arbitrary, humans in DBZ are much stronger than humans in real life, they can climb higher, it can be lesser than Saiyans, that is fine. In DB there were more humans, and thus more techniques and such, because that is where they excelled. Bringing in the humans with the Saiyans would have had more diversity, that is one way they could have mixed it up a little AND kept the cast strong AND made it less predictable. Killing three birds with one stone.

 

[Marc]

The outline of the aura is somewhat distinct in the manga, but you're really grasping at straws here. It's a low quality pic, but...

This is right before they say he is using it. If I were reading the manga for the first time I'd have a hard time telling whether he's using it or not based on that pic, which is once again because there is no color. Now you say the statement made only a few pages later (that he is using it) is to cover up laziness in the chapter itself(!!!) and that it very clearly was not Kaio-ken the way it was drawn. You must be seeing something everyone else is missing.

For comparison: In the next chapter, where he states he is using Kaio-ken x20, it is drawn like this.

What a world of difference. >_>

I'm done here.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

I'm looking directly at the pages of the manga that I own. There is not only a distinction, but a big one. Goku gets strained, his muscles swell abnormally, and his aura is different. Not to mention, the quality of those pages look... oh dear god. @_@

And it doesn't even matter if the difference WAS slight, if there is, it would be a bit curious, don't you think?

Not sure why you seem so moody about it, I promise you bud, everything is going to be okay. o___o

 

[Smooth Criminal]

You are kind of being belligerent, Holder.

Kaio-ken has an appearance more than just "red". Have you seen him use Kaio-ken before?

Marc is clearly quite knowledgeable of the series.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Sorry, I wasn't really trying to spread flames, I'm just confused because after reading the manga and watching the anime again, I haven't seen Ken being used in that fight in either adaption. Akira is forgetful, and in really bad ways too, it makes so much more sense to chock this up as another one of those incidents instead of saying he decided to change what Kaio-Ken is like randomly.

At any rate, he had made a congruent remark about me not having seen the last 50 episodes of DB when I've been talking about it since the first post and I hadn't gotten moody about it. o-o

 

[Bing]

Okay so I dont feel like quoting anything but for starters just as a fan fact, they made a new bardock... Episode? He doesnt die at the hands of Frieza, he gets sent back in time like 10 thousand years and fighs Frieza ancestor named Lord Chilled.

In this... 20 minute movie, he gets his *** handed to him, *****es about how he's so weak and pathetic, becomes a Super Saiyan and defeats Chilled. THIS is how the legend of the Super Saiyan came to be, and that 10 thousand years later, Goku did it.

Anyways moving right along, I gave up on trying to place the movies in there correct plot places... its not possible for most of them, I know that like... First Broly movie is RIGHT before cell, second one is near the beginning of buu saga, first one is before DBZ's first official episode... And I think its the second one is somehow between Raditz and Vegeta/Nappa.

As in regards to opinions on the second Broly Movie, no that thing with Trunks flinging a wobbly Ki ball at Broly helping to **** up his day, doesnt make any sense, however I really enjoyed the movie in general because Gohan's my favourite character, and I liked the romance between him and Videl, so him swooping in and saving the day was pretty legit.

Bio Broly is gay... Hated that movie, the way they defeat Janemba is dumb too, I mean if it worked like that against him, why didnt Vegeta and Goku fuse for every enemy and do it. Instant Victory.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Oh! I forgot about that special/episode/thing. I don't even think those are the biggest confusing things. I mean, he leaves that timeline he was in, so how could he be the original super saiyan in the original timeline, and how could Chilled tell Frieza from the original timeline to be fearful of the saiyans? The only good thing about that was how awesome SSJ Bardock is, his chi is interesting because it seems like wind to me. You know, something kind of unique about a person for once. XP

You have a point about Videl and Gohan, I do find them adorable and appreciate the development between them. Though Gohan is apparently weaker at that point in time, adult Gohan is my personal favorite. Not entirely sure why, he just seems pretty cool. ^^

 

[#HBC | Joker]

>_>

I'm probably the only person alive that enjoyed the Garlic Jr. movie.

Smooth Criminal

Lol, I'll show ya some DeadZone love, broski

I liked it, but Bardock: Father of Goku it was not.

 

[Fuelbi]

I always found the chronology of theseMovies hilarious


Like how there a Broly movie, I think a Cooler movie, and that one japanese OST or something happen ALL within the one week before the Cell Games begin.


Given the events of those movies coupled with the in show events happening, that was some seriously ****ed up week if you ask me. I'm seriously surprised that even after like saving the world like 3 times in one week, no one was already strong enough to beat Cell up easy

 

[Mr. Johan]

I love the Bojack movie the most. :3

Simple concept, satisfying battles, and of course, SSJ2 Gohan mercilessly annihilating the hell out of the Space Pirates. I still need to get the DVD of the movie.


As for the first Broly movie's conclusion, I assumed that Goku, with everyone's power backing him, had attacked the only area on Broly that was alluded to be a weak spot: the area where he was stabbed by the knife when he was an infant. Goku had merely gotten balls-out lucky when he attacked that precise point out of everywhere else on the body.

And for Janemba, eh, Fusion is serious business. If two relatively untrained child Super Saiyans' Fusion form can go toe-to-toe with Majin Buu with breath to spare, when SSJ3 Goku would have to put everything he had to defeating the same Buu, the fusion of two Super Saiyans who devote their lives to training would hardly break a sweat defeating anything he encounters.

 

[Bing]

ahh Yes, being that Gohan was my favourite character, I loved Bojack Unbound.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Bojack Unbound seemed like a movie set up for the SSJ2 scene that was worse than the original SSJ2 scene, it didn't even try to do anything different with that. Though Krillin's comedy was great at the beginning, just like in the Broly movie when he sand (the voice actor told us at a convention I went to that he made that song up as he went along).

"Ohhhh I just want to beeee... your puppyyyyyy~" Just another reason to love that movie.

And I know that is his weak spot he was hit in, but he was hit there repeatedly throughout the movie, and the rift of power is just too much, it seems so black and white. Broly bending everyone over for like 30 minutes and then when everyone is practically a corpse they combine their power (they have power?!) into Goku and he punches his boo boo and Broly is like, "RAAAAAHOMG BLEEEEH!" ._.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Every punch that hit that area before the climax were simple head-on punches though. With that final punch, a boosted-up Goku made contact and rotated his fist around the skin, twisting it. The added strain from the twist, particularly in a (relatively) tender spot compared to the rest of the body, would give way and the wound would break open if additional force was added.

It's all about those minor details. ^_^

 

[Bing]

...Okay guys we need to stop here, way too much thought is going into a punch...

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Yeah, I think it is just poor writing. Could have at least been lazy and be like, "Okay, Spirit Bomb."