some stuff about bowser

[GeZ]

But than again, G-dorf's brand of knockback entails horizontal kills. Not the kind that Bowser can down-b from.

But he has the opportunity to recover. Ganondorf has to time his edgeguard relatively well no matter what he chooses to do. Fortress Hog on the other hand is all encompassing and pretty bluntly executed.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

But he has the opportunity to recover. Ganondorf has to time his edgeguard relatively well no matter what he chooses to do. Fortress Hog on the other hand is all encompassing and pretty bluntly executed.

True, the MU can go either way, but an aggressive Ganon can shut Bowser down. For Ganon mains the rule is; "don't get hit!"

 

[DarkStarStorm]

But he has the opportunity to recover. Ganondorf has to time his edgeguard relatively well no matter what he chooses to do. Fortress Hog on the other hand is all encompassing and pretty bluntly executed.

True, the MU can go either way, but an aggressive Ganon can shut Bowser down. For Ganon mains the rule is; "don't get hit!"

 

[deadjames]

But than again, G-dorf's brand of knockback entails horizontal kills. Not the kind that Bowser can down-b from.

That's true, I still feel that it's not that hard for Bowser to recover against Ganon though.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

That's true, I still feel that it's not that hard for Bowser to recover against Ganon though.

The thing is: recovery is irrelevant. This isn't Brawl: these Ganondorfs are going to be comboing their opponent to a damage threshold where DI doesn't even matter. Ganon isn't setting you up for the edgeguard: he's setting you up for a 120% kill.

 

[Frost | Odds]

or an ezmode dair because bowser has 0 options offstage.

MU is horrible for bowser in Melee, where Ganon doesn't have his freewin move.

Whatevs, though, Kirby and Mario both pretty baller against Ganon so idgaf :D

 

[deadjames]

The thing is: recovery is irrelevant. This isn't Brawl: these Ganondorfs are going to be comboing their opponent to a damage threshold where DI doesn't even matter. Ganon isn't setting you up for the edgeguard: he's setting you up for a 120% kill.

Idk, man I've played the Ganon MU probably more than any other MU, maybe it's just that I'm so comfortable with it, but I think Bowser wins, also edge-guarding is far more important in Melee/P:M than it is in Brawl, and Bowser doesn't die at 120% on most stages unless he has the worst DI in the world.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

All Ganon has to do is use a well timed down-b or dair.

 

[deadjames]

All Ganon has to do is use a well timed down-b or dair.

My point still stands that Bowser has the advantage when it comes to edge-guarding. If Bowser is at a low-mid percent neither of those will kill him, all it takes for Bowser to kill Ganon at 0 is ftrhow/bthrow offstage, fortress hog, bair.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Idk, man I've played the Ganon MU probably more than any other MU, maybe it's just that I'm so comfortable with it, but I think Bowser wins, also edge-guarding is far more important in Melee/P:M than it is in Brawl, and Bowser doesn't die at 120% on most stages unless he has the worst DI in the world.

Yes I agree that edge-guarding is important, but it's not as big a thing to Ganon as others. And even if Ganon's fair and down b aren't viable methods of gimping, his bair is. I feel that G-dog has the upper-hand. I hope that I'm not being overly stubbern, and if I've worn out my welcome I'll leave.

 

[deadjames]

Yes I agree that edge-guarding is important, but it's not as big a thing to Ganon as others. And even if Ganon's fair and down b aren't viable methods of gimping, his bair is. I feel that G-dog has the upper-hand. I hope that I'm not being overly stubbern, and if I've worn out my welcome I'll leave.

He doesn't though, Bowser can gimp Ganon at 0, the inverse is not true.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

He doesn't though, Bowser can gimp Ganon at 0, the inverse is not true.

Upperhand at edgeguarding, not returning to the ledge.

 

[GeZ]

I'd say they break about even, except that Ganon's attacks are very kill oriented, so they put Bowser at very high and easy to recover from angles, while Bowser's Bair knocks back at a crazy gimping angle.

 

[ShadowGanon]

Either we could argue about this all day, or one of you could post a few links to several Bowser vs. Ganon Project M matches. Then people could see for themselves whether or not who has the upper hand.

 

[deadjames]

Either we could argue about this all day, or one of you could post a few links to several Bowser vs. Ganon Project M matches. Then people could see for themselves whether or not who has the upper hand.

That is not really an accurate way to determine who has an advantage in a particular MU, it's highly subjective.

Upperhand at edgeguarding, not returning to the ledge.

Perhaps I'm unclear on this, but isn't edge-guarding preventing your opponent from returning to the ledge? Either way Bowser's recovery is better than Ganon's, he can cover horizontal distance faster, and has an easier time thwarting edge-guard attempts. Ganon can make it back from farther away, but that doesn't mean much when has very few options to actually get back to a neutral position on the stage.

 

[ShadowGanon]

That is not really an accurate way to determine who has an advantage in a particular MU, it's highly subjective.

Well, I didn't mean just one.... but okay.

 

[deadjames]

Well, I didn't mean just one.... but okay.

It would still be inaccurate, there are so many other things to consider that a handful of videos can't accurately represent, not to mention the fact that the metagame is constantly evolving and somewhere down the road someone may discover something that sways the MU in a different direction, and then there's also the PMBR who say that everything is subject to change, so for all we know Bowser and Ganon could both be very different characters in the next update.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

That is not really an accurate way to determine who has an advantage in a particular MU, it's highly subjective.

Perhaps I'm unclear on this, but isn't edge-guarding preventing your opponent from returning to the ledge? Either way Bowser's recovery is better than Ganon's, he can cover horizontal distance faster, and has an easier time thwarting edge-guard attempts. Ganon can make it back from farther away, but that doesn't mean much when has very few options to actually get back to a neutral position on the stage.

I meant that Ganon in general is better at edge-guarding a horizontal recoverer like Bowser. Neither one is good at recovering against each other. But I don't even know how I started talking about this match-up, I don't even PLAY either character. What is more relevant to me is the Zelda Bowser matchup. Which I do not need to ask about because I know it. What do you guys think about the Bowser MK matchup?
I feel that Bowser has the upperhand in this one. What do you guys think?

 

[Ace55]

The edgegaurd game between Ganon/Bowser really isn't very relevant. Ganon should die if he's off stage, no questions asked. If Bowser manages to recover high at low% he may have a shot, but otherwise it's hasta la vista. Basically they **** each others recovery so hard that it's infinitely more important who has the better onstage game. I can't say I've played the matchup a lot but I've mained both of them (Ganon in melee). I can see Ganon being a lot safer on shield and on 'armor/cc' then Bowser would like. And if Ganon manages to get a grab Boozer can kiss his stock goodbye. On the other hand Bowser can't really exploit Ganon's weakness of being amazing combo food.

In my head this mu isn't looking so hot for Ganon but idk.

 

[Jacob29]

I dunno why this isn't being talked about in the MU Thread but I'll bite.

I dunno who to give the advantage too but with properly spaced FAirs Ganon is really strong. Also he has solid edge-guard against Bowser.

Bowser can either come back onto stage high up and if the Ganon is well versed he will U-Air you back off. If you try to come in low he will grab the ledge, fall off and BAir you. This kills the Bowser except at low percents and real nice DI.

Also Ganon has a nice chain-grab d-throw for the first 3/4 times at 0% and then it becomes a game of reading your DI.

 

[choknater]

sigh bowser was nerfed so hard since i posted this thread

now i main sheik in pm lol

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jteu3ZItQjs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaZH3gXP6HY

The Bowser-Ganon MU is not as bad as people make it up to be. Ganon has a tool or two that are incredibly effective vs Bowser, such as Side B to go through shields or down-throw shenanigans which keep Bowser pretty much locked. Ganon's edgeguarding game is also great, being able to negate many of bowser's opportunities to return to stage if he already has been pushed far enough, with bairs, fairs and uairs. I'd compare Ganon to Peach on this aspect since if you're already very far away all peach has to do to edgeguard you is nair endlessdly.

But not only you can't approach Ganon, Ganon can't really approach you either. It becomes a baiting game in where whoever goes in first is likely to get punished, and Ganon has some good tools to approach vs Bowser whereas Bowser has tools to counter almost any of Ganon's approach options. Really, get any hit on Ganon as Bowser and expect to deal LOTS of damage from

 

[Gimpyfish62]

bowser can't approach anyone

 

[DarkStarStorm]

bowser can't approach anyone

What did they change that made him unable to approach? I agree with you, but what did he have in Melee?

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

he never ever could lol

 

[deadjames]

sigh bowser was nerfed so hard since i posted this thread

now i main sheik in pm lol

He's still good though, I mean Sheik is definitely better, but that was true even before he got nerfed.

 

[choknater]

well in the first version (when i mained him) i thought he was the best in the game lol

then he was nerfed once and i thought ivy became the best (and he was)

but now ivy got nerfed so i'm just gonna stick with one of my best characters in melee/brawl lol

toodles yall

 

[deadjames]

Ivy was never the best, even in 2.5 and 2.6 she got destroyed by spacies. Imo Fox is still the best character.

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

He got nerfed to the max.....

 

[GeZ]

He got nerfed to the max.....

Not really.

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

Not really.

. Well, why do u think he's "not really" nerfed? (Not at all trying to sound rude, just curious)

 

[deadjames]

. Well, why do u think he's "not really" nerfed? (Not at all trying to sound rude, just curious)

He got some buffs too in 3.0. Overall I think he came out worse off than he was before, but only slightly.

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

He got some buffs too in 3.0. Overall I think he came out worse off than he was before, but only slightly.

. Well I pretty much agree with you 100%. While he certainly did get a few buffs, he came out worse then he was before (slighty but surely)

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

3.0 bowser worst bowser