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some stuff about bowser

choknater

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Bowser is my favorite, and the coolest character in project m. I feel he is also one of the strongest. Here is some cool stuff he can do

- up B at low percent gives you knockdown on fox, falcon, and other fast fallers. Doesn't have to be the initial hit, but any part of the move knocks them down. Nice momentum breaker and can pre-emptively be used to anti-air short hops

- sh flame cancel is great for stuffing grab attempts and ike's side b. Quick spurts are nice and don't have too much recovery

- mash nair if you want to break a combo

- fair hits above, below, and behind Bowser. Godlike move and kinda overpowered lol

- bair is ridicously strong now and the angle kills at low percent

- melee style edgeguarding with repeated ledge getup attacks still works like a charm. Finish with a bair or Bowser bomb.

- after a knockdown, Bowser now has the speed (or size I guess) to catch getup rolls away with his dash grab. If you can't catch em, you'll be right in their face anyway which is where you wanna be. Dthrow is a good initiator for a knockdown. People get scared a lot and want to tech away, so its nice that Bowser can catch this, especially on small stages.

- under the tower on hyrule 64 is such a good camping spot

- Bowser dominates small stages in general, especially metal Mario and melee yoshis story, its kinda not fair lol.

- crawling through projectile spam is nice and nullified many projectile games. Pikachu, ivy, falco, sheik, Mario, etc with weak projectiles are not very problematic and it is easy to get in. Stronger projectiles like those of link and snake are much harder to deal with

- Bowser bomb can catch the ledge facing either direction, so even when you are in the middle of the stage you can run toward the ledge and short hop Bowser bomb for a powerful edge guard.

- point blank is a kinda hard position to get in and grab hitbox for side b is kinda small, so it has limited use

- grounded up b to ledge grab from any point on the stage is wayyyy easier to do now than it was in melee. just slide off and hold toward the stage, timing is mad easy.

- his huge body and no light shield makes getting shield poked a weakness

- when in doubt crouch/crawl because it forces your opponents to choose stronger attacks. For some characters like zss these moves are very hard to implement since Bowser can crouch nearly all of her fast grounded attacks. Crouch, up b out of shield, and his ledge game are the crux of his defense and make him very annoying to deal with. I want to practice crouch armor into up b to counter moves lol

What a cool character ! :D

:phone:
 

Gimpyfish62

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see this reads WAY better because you said "I feel he is also one of the strongest."

i'll comment on a couple things soon
 

Chaos_Blasta

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Really though, i like some of the things/tips you suggested, but i want to point out some i didn't fully agree with, or want to expand on.

- sh flame cancel is great for stuffing grab attempts and ike's side b. Quick spurts are nice and don't have too much recovery

It should also be mentioned that Fire cancelling is a super good spacing option at any time, specially vs fast characters that can punish your landing very very hard, like spacies or CF. B-reversed flame cancels are also unexpected and very practical if you use them right.

- fair hits above, below, and behind Bowser. Godlike move and kinda overpowered lol

- bair is ridicously strong now and the angle kills at low percent

Fair is, despite how bad/good it sounds, a very spammable move if you space it right because how powerful it is on hit and how safe it is when poking shields at a distance. I use it all the time when trying to appraoch or get people off my range when neccesary and it's very very good at that.

I rarely use Bair onstage, and when i do it's typically after a waveland if people try to get into my range.. due to the super high landing lag it's not one of my preferred moves outside of edgeguarding.

- melee style edgeguarding with repeated ledge getup attacks still works like a charm. Finish with a bair or Bowser bomb.

Bowser has so many edgeguard tools that the ledge attack only covers a very small portion of what he can do. Down B, Fire Breath, Fair, Bair, Dtilt, Ftilt, and Fsmash are also other very good moves to use when edgeguarding or gimping, either alone or in combinations (Ledge getup + Fsmash works more often than you'd think specially with the new super armor frames on it)


- Bowser dominates small stages in general, especially metal Mario and melee yoshis story, its kinda not fair lol.

I feel much more comfortable playing Bowser in large stages, like DL64 or SSE Jungle..Not only does Bowser get to live to very ridiculous %s (It's kinda common for me to reach 200% without dying), Bowser's amazing edgeguard abilities make sure that the increase stage size does not impact much in what comes to the survivability of your opponents. Although small stages also let Bowser kill incredibly fast and usually make Up B a much safer move overall so..it depends on your opinion i guess.


- crawling through projectile spam is nice and nullified many projectile games. Pikachu, ivy, falco, sheik, Mario, etc with weak projectiles are not very problematic and it is easy to get in. Stronger projectiles like those of link and snake are much harder to deal with

I want to point out that for characters like Link or Snake whose's projectiles you can't crawl through, you are much, much better powershielding those projectiles. Not only do they get hit by their own projectiles and get thrown off considerably but it also puts him in a very good position to counterattack. This also applies vs other characters like Falco or Wolf, where i feel PSing is much more effective than crawling through the stream of projectiles and gaining a lot of damage for no good reason.

- Bowser bomb can catch the ledge facing either direction, so even when you are in the middle of the stage you can run toward the ledge and short hop Bowser bomb for a powerful edge guard.

I prefer to do it by standing next to the ledge then simply using Down B; it raises Bowser higher up from the ground, which can avoid some key recovery attacks sometimes.

- point blank is a kinda hard position to get in and grab hitbox for side b is kinda small, so it has limited use

Not after a tech chase, which you covered in one of your posts. Side B is also super easy to land if you condition your opponents into shielding an aerial (which will happen more often than not given how ridiculous and fear-inspiring your aerials are). Side B is one of Bowser's best moves and sets up for Klaw fthrow chaingrabs and followups, or easy late % kills with klaw bthrow.
 

E-102 Gamma

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Here is some cool stuff he can do

- point blank is a kinda hard position to get in and grab hitbox for side b is kinda small, so it has limited use

- his huge body and no light shield makes getting shield poked a weakness
Cool stuff. Uh-huh.

Also, you forgot to mention his brokenly-overpowered cuteness.
 

choknater

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choknater
Interesting stuff chaos blasta, good ideas

Lots of personal preference too haha I seem to prefer regular dash grabs over side b grabs. Maybe I just haven't practiced it enough

:phone:
 

Chaos_Blasta

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Well, Bowser's dash grab is quite poor and only covers so much distance, while Side B even has that High-KB if you whiff it. However, you do have more followups on a grab compared to Side B on most characters.
 

choknater

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Poor?! His dash grab is incredible! It has so much speed and range. You have to take into account his body size. It makes the grab look deceptively short but it actually reaches so far. The main problem is you have to commit to that decision because if you miss he is on the floor for a long time. But yeah, its really good lol. Its range from standing is similar to toon links grab range.

:phone:
 

Chaos_Blasta

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Poor?! His dash grab is incredible! It has so much speed and range. You have to take into account his body size. It makes the grab look deceptively short but it actually reaches so far. The main problem is you have to commit to that decision because if you miss he is on the floor for a long time. But yeah, its really good lol. Its range from standing is similar to toon links grab range.

:phone:
It seems big because Bowser has one of the biggest grab hitboxes in the game, but that's only because he's so big. But compare it to any other character who actually dashes when grabbing and it's immediatly noticeable how bad it is.. Another example: Marth has a relatively small hitbox on his grab but has one of the best grab ranges, specifically because he dashes so much on his dash grab
 

Gimpyfish62

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yes he does

also bowser's dash grab is really not very long it doesn't go much further than his actual character

he's just big


it's still pretty good but it's not like some massively huge grab
 

traffic.

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SH koopa klaw lunge gets you better distance and momentum than a dash grab does in most situations, and with the changing height you end up with a larger grab box. Fountain of Dreams platforms are lol for the strange places you end up grabbing people from with the klaw. Plus, you're playing Bowser, be a man and use the klaw, falling on your face when you miss the dash grab isnt very awesome now is it?
 

Chaos_Blasta

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SH koopa klaw lunge gets you better distance and momentum than a dash grab does in most situations, and with the changing height you end up with a larger grab box. Fountain of Dreams platforms are lol for the strange places you end up grabbing people from with the klaw. Plus, you're playing Bowser, be a man and use the klaw, falling on your face when you miss the dash grab isnt very awesome now is it?
It really depends on the situation, there are many circumstances in where grabbing will bring you much more of a benefit than Klaw, depending on the character, %s, the area of the stage in where you grabbed said character, etc.

I find that Klaw is very good at very early %s (Fthrow) and late-ish %s (Bthrow), whereas the regular grab always has some useful application (Uthrow for followups, Dthrow for techchases, and Fthrow/Bthrow for gimps or kill throws)
 

traffic.

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i suppose in lieu of "most" situations i should have said "many." i am more biased towards style than technical exactness.
 

Chaos_Blasta

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SSE Jungle was reduced in 2.5 to be more suited to 1v1 situations.

The same happened with Rumble Falls.
 

Gimpyfish62

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SSE Jungle is still RIDICULOUS and I'll be banning it in singles for every single one of my events

at least for 1v1

but i might ban it for 2v2 as well

that stage is just humongulous
 

Chaos_Blasta

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Aren't they?

i swear the first thing i thought when i loaded up SSE Jungle was "Hey, the shrinked down the stage!" which i thought was pretty cool.

Rumble falls definitively has been made smaller..you can notice the "smile" platform is much smaller than it was in 2.1. Or maybe it was just the platforms and the main stage was kept the same..i will need to redownload 2.1 to check this out.
 

Gimpyfish62

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regardless of if it has changed or not sse jungle is still ridiculously huge and rumble falls is still a counterpick stage and it's what you're gonna be playing on in 2.5 because its not as if you have the option of 2.1 or 2.5 stages
 
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i think both are awful competitively.

that said, they're still fun for free play.

but yeah removing them for a tournament setting is totally reasonable IMO
 

RomeDogg

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Well that seems reasonable but I think Dracula's Castle and Metal Cavern are fine for Singles even if only for counter picks. We are so off topic. I hope Bowser doesn't forward smash us into oblivion for this.
 

DrinkingFood

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He can sweetspot that **** from super low too. Requires some serious finesse to not **** it up though.
Anyone know at what point he gets his knockback armor during aerial down-b? I imagine it's not until he starts the plummet but if that weren't the case and he got it sometime during the flip/stall, then this may be more amazing then it looks.
 

Divock

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speaking of bowser

here's a nice little trick to mix up your recovery if people weren't aware

read the description to make sense of it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lB6ml5t1jY
That is simply beautiful. Bowser how are you so awesome.

Recently I was in a match and I was edge-drop-jumping (I don't know if that's the official term because I'm one gigantic noob) while my opponent was on the edge, and I tried Koopa Klawing him on the jump, and it grabbed him while falling. I've yet to test it out fully (just last night it happened), but I wonder if a quick enough back-throw with Klaw would be a good reverse edgeguard, or something. Granted at low percents ledge attack is probably a better choice, but I dunno. I found it cool.
 

DrinkingFood

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Yeah but unfortunately since it requires the use of his double jump and since Boozer has a hard time gaining forward momentum to get near the stage without his DJ (klaw helps, but not much unless you've got time to gain momentum like if you got knocked to the far upper corner), it's probably only going to see use for weak gimps and meteor cancels/weak spikes.
 

Chaos_Blasta

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It's a very nice way to recover and it also works wonders while stalling on the ledge. If you drop down far enough and immediatly jump into Down B you usually have enough momentum to sweetspot the ledge without having any of Bowser's hitboxes above the ledge.

Definitively worth mastering for those who haven't
 

DrinkingFood

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Wait if I accidentally get off and try to shield grab but accidentally nair instead vbrawl ike style, can that save me? Someone should test since I don't have access to my wii atm.
 

Chaos_Blasta

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Nope.

This tactic generally doesn't give you any more distance than double jump > Up B would, so it's mostly useful for safely getting back to the stage.

Also, i share your pain. Particularly vs Zelda when she places a lot of dins and i **** myself over.
 
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