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Wademan94 said:
The director who was a Miyamoto fanboy took his advice a bit too seriously and didn’t care that he was gonna upset classic PM fans cause he and I quote “made a game for 7-10 year olds.”
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At least they are improving Paper Mario.

TheMightyP said:
Everything was AlphaDreams fault tbh. They didn't want to go all out with the crossover, so they played it extremely safe, and as a result, every single thing suffered.
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It seems like the games that take the largest risks tend to be more liked or more successful. That is an interesting lesson for all of us.
TheCJBrine said:
In beta images they seemed to have planned partners like the original 2 games, though this time generic judging by the generic Chain Chomp partner but still cool; Miyamoto told them to do something different from TTYD and either 1. they went too far in that direction or 2. the rumored Mario Quality Assurance committee or whoever higherups at Nintendo (backed up by Tanabe's statements about it being "impossible" to use age/gender and stuff) got paranoid about unique versions of their character species and other unique stuff so they went hard against that stuff while being hypocrites in their mainline games, and only letting up somewhat since that game so thankfully it at least got better.
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Whatever they did, they ****ed up pretty hard in Sticker Star, but at least Color Splash was somewhat of an improvement, even if it had flaws.
 
SnakeFighter64

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Black Shiver Gavrail said:
You do this like ever other week. -__- Like....everytime news comes out oh look, here's your hot take about how bad it is and how it doesn't pander to you specifically. After many months of you doing this its frankly starting to get old.
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That isn't what I was even doing today! I've said more times then I can count that I'm ambivalent about the direct. I don't care what was in it. I just wanted to give people a little more perspective on why people might be disappointed because I know that insulting them like is common and was happening here is just going to make things worse. That's all I wanted. I was disappointed with the direct. It kind of sucked. But if you liked it then great! I'm glad you are happy! Just understand why other people aren't and maybe stand up for them when friggin Walmart starts insulting them. That's all I was trying to do. And It's very upsetting that people are taking this as one of the angry rants I tend to go on when I'm not 100%. That's not what I'm doing right now. Look at my first post about it.
SnakeFighter64 said:
Was really hoping to see some No More Heroes or Fighting EX Layer stuff. Oh well shrug.
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Disappointment expressed very calmly and not meant to start any argument and nowhere in it did I call it bad.
And then this whole thing started when this was posted
osby said:
At this point, it's no wonder that Nintendo acts like their audience is comprised of children because the adult fans are doing a pretty bad job at proving them wrong.

There's having unrealistic expectations and then there is complaining about the lack of big titles in an indie showcase.
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and I responded with this
SnakeFighter64 said:
To a degree, that is very ridiculous. But there are bigger indie franchises that could have potentially had something in the showcase. Beyond my personal hopes for Fighting EX Layer, there could have been something for Shovel Knight, Shantae, Cave Story, Meat Boy, Gunvolt 3, Hollow Knight, all sorts of stuff. There wasn't really anything. I don't really care, wasn't expecting really anything. Just trying to show a different point of view.

Also, I think a lot of the disappointment stems from the fact that... well... people don't want an indie presentation. They want that big fat juicy Nintendo direct showing us all the stuff they had planned for this year that they felt we should have gotten in May or in June. People are stir crazy and want to know what Nintendo's been doing and they're tired of these small presentations. It's not that they expected big things out of an indie presentation, it's that they expected for it to not be an indie presentation. Or a mini. Or a third party showcase of previously announced titles.
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All of this was very calm. I was just trying to have a conversation. That's all. It's what I've been trying to do since then. I'm not angry right now. Even though I maybe should be after I've been spoken to the way you have. I'm trying to change and I'm trying to be better. I don't want to fight. So stop misrepresenting me. When I'm being an ass, absolutely, please call me out on it. I might not like it while it's happening but it's for my own good. But also please try to recognize when I'm trying to be calm and civil.
 
Wademan94

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Hadokeyblade said:
This is stupid because the Mario RPGs aren't games made exclusively for children, the tone and writing in these games were always more of an all ages type experience.
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Yeah, I don’t think something made just for kids is a good thing for kids because kids know when they’re being talked down to or left out of the fun and I think kids could tell the different I. quality in SS and the first three games. But it’s even more stupid when you consider how stupidly obtuse and cryptic SS is, I’ve seen adults get stuck on how to complete it, I think 7-10 year olds would get way more frustrated at the game.
 
TheCJBrine

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Hadokeyblade said:
And Bowser is no longer allowed to be badass, like in the few times he was actually playable.
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idk he seemed like his usual cool self in TOK even with him being folded up for most of the game; gosh if they actually ruined Bowser at some point I'd be really miffed (another reason why Sticker Star bugs me).
 
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SnakeFighter64

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TheCJBrine said:
It really just needs Nintendo to stop being needlessly paranoid about unique Toads, Goombas, partners etc. and stop being hypocrites by using unique characters/designs like that in mainline games.
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Yeah. That's totally Miyamoto. He seems to have something against depth being added to Mario and I think the GameCube era pushed him a little too far. I really wish someone could sit down with him and talk about those old games and make their case for the style to continue.
 
TheMightyP

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TheCJBrine said:
idk he seemed like his usual cool self in TOK even with him being folded up for most of the game; gosh if they actually ruined Bowser at some point I'd be really miffed (another reason why Sticker Star bugs me).
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Bowser definitely got his time to shine at the end, but KAMEK was the real star of the show, let's be real. I loved what that TOK did to him.
 
TheCJBrine

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TheMightyP said:
Bowser definitely got his time to shine at the end, but KAMEK was the real star of the show, let's be real. I loved what that TOK did to him.
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Yeah I was happy Kamek got time to shine too, same with his role in Bowser Jr.'s Journey (the BIS remake sidegame); it's annoying how people treat him like a generic magikoopa when he's supposed to be the magikoopa (and Bowser's right-hand koopa), like Yoshi and SMB2/spinoff Toad.
 
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TheCJBrine said:
Yeah I was happy Kamek got time to shine too, same with his role in Bowser Jr.'s Journey (the BIS remake sidegame); it's annoying how people treat him like a generic magikoopa when he's supposed to be the magikoopa, like Yoshi and SMB2/spinoff Toad.
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I mean it is easy to treat Kamek like a generic enemy, because you can make a lot of magickoopas in Mario Maker.

Edit: I do see your point though.
 
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TheMightyP

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TheCJBrine said:
Yeah I was happy Kamek got time to shine too, same with his role in Bowser Jr.'s Journey (the BIS remake sidegame); it's annoying how people treat him like a generic magikoopa when he's supposed to be the magikoopa (and Bowser's right-hand koopa), like Yoshi and SMB2/spinoff Toad.
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I also like how that game pretty much confirms that he's the adoptive grandfather to Jr. as well, as well as being somewhay cowardly and even stupid at points. Also, no excuse for him to not be in Mario Kart at this point.

Also, him being a "generic Magikoopa" is definitely a mainstream Mario issue where he doesn't have much of a personality aside from being evil.
 
Hadokeyblade

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TheMightyP said:
Tbh, Paper Mario plots being simple isn't a bad thing, 64 and Origami King pulled it off well.
The issue with Sticker Star and Color Splash is that they didn't have much depth to them. Both games were just "Bowser is evil. Collect the macguffins. Stop him."
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The difference is that in Paper Mario 64 there was a bit of world building despite it's simple premise, the mushroom kingdom felt alive with how many small towns there were, the individuality in a lot of the npc's and establishing the religion of the mushroom kingdom people.

TheCJBrine said:
Yeah I was happy Kamek got time to shine too, same with his role in Bowser Jr.'s Journey (the BIS remake sidegame); it's annoying how people treat him like a generic magikoopa when he's supposed to be the magikoopa (and Bowser's right-hand koopa), like Yoshi and SMB2/spinoff Toad.
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Maybe if they gave him a different more unique design then people would actually treat him like a character lol
 
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TBH given Tanabe's recent interviews, I'm more convinced it's less the PM and M&L teams wanted to water designs down and more that there's new series mandates that got introduced during the 3DS and Wii U era that's hurting the Mario spin-off teams. There's rumors and rumblings from insiders that the reason Mario spin-offs got hit with these is because higher ups like Miyamoto didn't like how far Super Paper Mario strayed from his original vision of the series, and Nintendo higher ups are afraid sales will fall if the forefront characters aren't all characters that are exclusively tied to the game's brand.

If it's true (keyword being "if", this is all speculation and rumor), then it's an incredibly shortsighted decision that I hope is overturned. I totally respect Miyamoto wanting his creation to only be portrayed in a way he wants it to be (it is his, after all) but I think he tends to shut too many ideas down out of tradition, and this denies Mario games experimentation.
 
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Strong Badam

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[shill mode] Reminder that if you're like me and love the first two Paper Mario games and got Hurt Deeply when the series went in a totally different direction, you should try Bug Fables: The Everlasting Sapling, a love letter to those first two games. At $25 it's less than half the cost of what Nintendo will charge you for Paper Mario and is IMO a much better game than TTYD. [/shill mode]
 
TheMightyP

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MooMew64 said:
TBH given Tanabe's recent interviews, I'm more convinced it's less the PM and M&L teams wanted to water designs down and more that there's new series mandates that got introduced during the 3DS and Wii U era that's hurting the Mario spin-off teams. There's rumors and rumblings from insiders that the reason Mario spin-offs got hit with these is because higher ups like Miyamoto didn't like how far Super Paper Mario strayed from his original vision of the series, and Nintendo higher ups are afraid sales will fall if the forefront characters aren't all characters that are exclusively tied to the game's brand.

If it's true (keyword being "if", this is all speculation and rumor), then it's an incredibly shortsighted decision that I hope is overturned. I totally respect Miyamoto wanting his creation to only be portrayed in a way he wants it to be (it is his, after all) but I think he tends to shut too many ideas down out of tradition, and this denies Mario games experimentation.
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One Origami King interview pretty much says that Nintendo allowed them (as if they weren't able to do so before) to give Toads and enemies more unique costumes this time around, which definitely played in this games favor, but yeah, the restrictions are real.
 
TheCJBrine

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Hadokeyblade said:
Maybe if they gave him a different more unique design then people would actually treat him like a character lol
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I don't see why he needs a unique design; he was the only magikoopa in some of the games he's in, including Bowser Jr.'s Journey, but even so he's clearly different from other magikoopas despite all being called "Kamek" in Japan and is Bowser's most important minion even among other magikoopas. Like I said, he's pretty much like Toad and Yoshi, in that they're not that unique from the rest of their species appearance-wise but are indeed their own individuals (admittedly I'm a bit confused on Nintendo's direction with Toad, however, but Luigi's Mansion 3 + MarioWiki stuff has convinced me spinoff Toad is the main one, and maybe he's the same Toad from SMB2).

He's written well like Bobby in TOK, so he feels like his own individual despite looking like the others. Basically, imo, generic designs are fine if they're established characters already or are done well like Bobby (don't get me wrong though I still want more characters like the PM64/TTYD partners). People complaining about him being a generic magikoopa make no sense tbh.

MooMew64 said:
TBH given Tanabe's recent interviews, I'm more convinced it's less the PM and M&L teams wanted to water designs down and more that there's new series mandates that got introduced during the 3DS and Wii U era that's hurting the Mario spin-off teams. There's rumors and rumblings from insiders that the reason Mario spin-offs got hit with these is because higher ups like Miyamoto didn't like how far Super Paper Mario strayed from his original vision of the series, and Nintendo higher ups are afraid sales will fall if the forefront characters aren't all characters that are exclusively tied to the game's brand.

If it's true (keyword being "if", this is all speculation and rumor), then it's an incredibly shortsighted decision that I hope is overturned. I totally respect Miyamoto wanting his creation to only be portrayed in a way he wants it to be (it is his, after all) but I think he tends to shut too many ideas down out of tradition, and this denies Mario games experimentation.
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Yeah, Nintendo's paranoia with this stuff is incredibly strange. People loved the older games and their characters, why are they acting dumb about it? It also feels hypocritical since the unique characters and girl goomba etc. they have in their maingames just hurt this "consistency" and proves their paranoia unfounded.
 
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SnakeFighter64

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MooMew64 said:
TBH given Tanabe's recent interviews, I'm more convinced it's less the PM and M&L teams wanted to water designs down and more that there's new series mandates that got introduced during the 3DS and Wii U era that's hurting the Mario spin-off teams. There's rumors and rumblings from insiders that the reason Mario spin-offs got hit with these is because higher ups like Miyamoto didn't like how far Super Paper Mario strayed from his original vision of the series, and Nintendo higher ups are afraid sales will fall if the forefront characters aren't all characters that are exclusively tied to the game's brand.

If it's true (keyword being "if", this is all speculation and rumor), then it's an incredibly shortsighted decision that I hope is overturned. I totally respect Miyamoto wanting his creation to only be portrayed in a way he wants it to be (it is his, after all) but I think he tends to shut too many ideas down out of tradition, and this denies Mario games experimentation.
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Seriously. Just spend an hour with fans of Paper Mario and they can tell you how much they love what was being done and hate that it's gone. They noticed that with Mario Odyssey already, so why can't the spinoffs get the same treatment?
 
Dutch Raikuna

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Hadokeyblade said:
I'm pretty sure this mandate is also the reason we never got another baseball, soccer game again.

Who knows maybe that's also why there hasn't been another Square developed Mario game since fortune street.
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It'll never ever happen but one of my dream games is a remake of Mario Smash Football. Like Holy ****, was that game really something else. Mario got a bit of a hooligan in him.
And that cover art.
1597775974588.png

And Mario Tennis Power Tour. That game could have been a starting point for hopefully an RPG from Camelot that is basically about the Mario characters from normal people kinda perspective.

It's unfortunate that Nintendo has those mandates. I wish they took a bit bigger of a risk.
 
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