So...none items user....cant adapt?

[NESSBOUNDER]

You also assume that the victim is impervious due to cultural background, which is stereotyping, but even so, if this were a competitive situation (which it isn't). The victim could be compared to an Ike with infinite super armor frames, therefore 'broken' and inappropriate for competitive play.

 

[DanteSmash7]

Ok Dante you should just end this topic, because its in an obvious stalemate because you choose to muffle anyone who talks against your beliefs. Seriously, the mods will probably close if you don't end it, and youll risk getting infracted because this topic has lowered down into *********** territory, and part of that(not all of it) is because of how you choose not to listen to what they say. You can just face the facts that items will either

A. Never be allowed, because the tourney guys can do what they must, because they can.

B. If they do make it in, they will be gimped to basic items that don't really add much of an increase.(Im talking about saturns, beamswords, a few guns, and etc.)

Look I play with those rules because people like those rules, so when in rome, you do what the romans do. With my friends however I play with everything on, even if it means that my friends who usually use, lucas, sonic, marth etc, will always get the smash ball before me and usually rely on that to knock down stocks.

If you want the game to be played by your rules, why not step out, and host a tourney with prize money, with whatever you want. Think about it, if you actually want change to be done, you must do it yourself, you do not jump on a forum and rant your opinion out like its fact, because it will blacklist you which unless you enjoy playing with noone, is not a good thing.

To sum it up in a nutshell,

End the topic, getting infracted over this is not worth it. Item proness is in the eye of the beholder. I play items on friendlys. You should host an items tournament to spark the item scene.

Ok now that im done typing, I have one thing left to say....

SUMWON GOTTAH FRAH MEH UP SUM KIRBEH(4kids DEDEDE for the lulz)

Yeah, did go a bit low cause of the Ness Troll. But in regards to items, I wouldn't be black-listed. In fact I would prob be challenged if anything. And tons of players play with items on. Its just not as mainstreamed because of mob-like mentality. Thats all. What better platform to start a bit of change then the smash boards.

In regards to hosting tourney's thats in the works for a while now. Its hard to manifest a digital tournaments but very, very possible. And easy to do through paypal in regards to entry fees and cash prizes.

My opinion isn't that you all MUST PLAY ITEMS. The fact is items = more skill. That isnt what is up for debate. Its the random factor that people fear. Playing items matches do make you a overall better players.

What do you mean by infracted?

 

[BokutoGuy]

If you could get punched through the internet dante, you'd be dead.

Ok, heres a senario. There are ten matches, 5 with items 5 without. player 1 wins 3/5 of the without items. Player 2 wins 4/5 of the with items because of their randomness. Now who do you this is the better player?

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO NOT SAY PLAYER 2!

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Lol at "Ness troll." You're much more of a troll for even starting this topic and baiting competitive players. No need for name-calling just because you can't prove that your method is better than the tired and true competitive formula that's practised world wide.

 

[Frey]

Yeah, did go a bit low cause of the Ness Troll. But in regards to items, I wouldn't be black-listed. In fact I would prob be challenged if anything. And tons of players play with items on. Its just not as mainstreamed because of mob-like mentality. Thats all. What better platform to start a bit of change then the smash boards.

In regards to hosting tourney's thats in the works for a while now. Its hard to manifest a digital tournaments but very, very possible. And easy to do through paypal in regards to entry fees and cash prizes.

My opinion isn't that you all MUST PLAY ITEMS. The fact is items = more skill. That isnt what is up for debate. Its the random factor that people fear. Playing items matches do make you a overall better players.

What do you mean by infracted?

I mean that the mods could give you basically a punishment, and that punishment if big enough could suspend your posting. I've done big threads like this in other game forums, and got infracted to the point I was suspended for a week. Like suggesting japan should be ipbanned from our servers because they ipban us in an online game.

And opinion means what you think is fact. You are saying that items take more skill. But noone can say either until enough testing has been done and it becomes official that said opinion is true. For instance My opinion differs from yours, but like i said, its my opinion, not fact untill fully proven.

 

[Anaxarchus]

ok, now I understand the analogy, although I'm not sure if I agree with it. however, ultimately analogies are pointless in arguments, brawl is not a torture chamber.

And it certainly seems foolish to call the advantage items offer an illusion. No amount of skill is going to stop me from taking a stock off you when i get a golden hammer on battlefield.

 

[PXG]

Most people don't want to lose a tournament because a Cracker Launcher or a Golden Hammer spawned next to their opponent on their last stock.

And don't even start with your "O WELL A REAL PRO CAN ADAPT TO ANY SCENARIO LOLOLOLOLOL" bullsh*t. It severely slants the match in favor of the item user in any case.

I'd like to see you "adapt" if you were in a fistfight and suddenly a shotgun materialized into your enemy's hands.

Nice to see you're still rockin' the sick sig I made you.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Also, there is no skill involved with grabbing a Starman or Spicy curry. Items = less skill. I can't see why you think it's a fact.

Back in Smash Bros 64, I used to play with items all the time and hated it because I didn't know they could be turned off. The game became infinately better once I unlocked the item switch. This was before I even knew about competitive gaming.

Items felt like a cheap gimmick back then as much as they do now. I remember practising against CPUs and thinking "gee, I wish I could turn these items off so I can actually play with my CHARACTER'S abilities.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

ok, now I understand the analogy, although I'm not sure if I agree with it. however, ultimately analogies are pointless in arguments, brawl is not a torture chamber.

And it certainly seems foolish to call the advantage items offer an illusion. No amount of skill is going to stop me from taking a stock off you when i get a golden hammer on battlefield.

Analogies aren't pointless if they are similar enough in principle to the subject matter. His analogy is not.

 

[Frey]

Btw ness, nice gif, did you draw them in? Lols *plots to stealz idea and make it dedede knocking lucas in a combo* You didnt see anything!.

 

[Yuna]

My opinion isn't that you all MUST PLAY ITEMS. The fact is items = more skill. That isnt what is up for debate. Its the random factor that people fear. Playing items matches do make you a overall better players.

Quoted for comedy.

No, really, items do not equal more skill. Depending on which character you are, items can even detract from skill. Certain items make certain characters waaaaay better than others with the same items. And just because you know how to throw a Bob-omb does not make you skilled.

The vast majority of items are overpowered and require much more skill dodging them than hitting with them. So basically, items = more dodging skills?

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Btw ness, nice gif, did you draw them in? Lols *plots to stealz idea and make it dedede knocking lucas in a combo* You didnt see anything!.

Yes, I did. I used Flash. It'm trying to think of ideas for more. ^_^

A Dedede one could be cool. How about Dedede throwing Waddle Dees at Kirby, who eats each one?

 

[Tomotoya]

Dante, seriously.
How can you pragmatically say "Items take more skill to use than non-items."
Besides the overwhelmingly obvious (but often used) bomb argument, there are other items that are simply rediculous:

1. Starman- gaining Invincibility, even temporarily, is an absurd advantage. You can't argue this point, it's a fact. However, I assume you have a witty strategy to defeat an opponent that got a Starman. I believe it would be known as "running away". Or getting the Starman before your opponent, which is again, random and uncontrollable.

2. Spicy Currey- Anyone who's seen this item in action knows how absurd it it. It's range, though limited, cancels a good deal of attacks, and basically allowes you to attack at will, while dealing extra damage. Nearly as good as (if not better) than Starman.

3. Final Smashes- I would dare say that obtaining and activating a Final Smash will kill an opponent bloody close to 70% of the time (probably more often than that). If that doesn't seem like an outrageous advantage, I don't know what does. And I'm sure you would argue that having to 'break' the Smash Ball to use it makes it fair, but you're wrong. If it spawns on the other side of the map, or if you have a slower character, or any number of other scenarios, you are likely going to lose a stock, and through no fault of your own, except for not being on the right side of the stage.


I'm fairly certain you'll try and refute this (unless you just ignore it).
And I don't really care, because I know that I'm correct.

Random =/= fair.
Any statistician will tell you that.

But as a parting note, consider this (which I'm sure others have said):
Eight times, heck, even nine times out of ten, the better player wins, items or not.
That doesn't change the fact that the one (or two) time(s) the worse player wins is a statiscal unlikelyhood, and thus supremely annoying to the better player.

The phrase is "Every dog has its day."
Not "Every dog has its day, if the random number generator favors it."

Is it cool to pull off a "come-from-behind" win with some rediculous item?
Of course.
But it doesn't take skill.
Being down to your last stock, with your opponent having two stocks, with one @ 50%, respawning, killing them, and then stringing together enough damage to KO them a second time and win.....

That's skill.


Now my post is starting to lose coherency, so I'll wrap it up.
But think about what I said.

After all, if you can't beat your opponent with your character alone (ie: no items), you should ask yourself: "How good am I, really?"

 

[PXG]

Quoted for comedy.

No, really, items do not equal more skill. Depending on which character you are, items can even detract from skill. Certain items make certain characters waaaaay better than others with the same items. And just because you know how to throw a Bob-omb does not make you skilled.

The vast majority of items are overpowered and require much more skill dodging them than hitting with them. So basically, items = more dodging skills?

Yuna, its not worth it. No matter what ANY of us say, its not going to get him to realize how incorrect and mislead he is. The wall-o-text and multiquotes may kill the poor boy

 

[Maveritchell]

Ack.

The fact you're ignoring, OP, is that it's not even really the same game when you play with items on. I don't even care to get into trying to convince you that items are not amplifiers to skill requirement - you seem pretty sold on them being that.

Have you played with anyone - I mean anyone - and compared playing 4-man FFA to 2-man, or a non-item game to a with-items game? The entire game dynamic changes. It's not just that there are more booby traps that you have to dodge or some such nonsense, it turns into a race as well.

Ex. You're in the middle of edgeguarding or pursuing someone, and you see an AT, Smash Ball, whatever-powerful-item. Do you keep pursuing your opponent? Of course not, that's now foolish because whatever you're doing at the moment becomes irrelevant compared to the potential reward (or the great risk if your opponent gets it) of getting a specific item.

The game changes from one of being focused on a single opponent to a game of focusing on multiple other unrelated factors. Like I said above, I'm not even going to try and convince you that one is less skill-intensive than the other, but you must certainly acknowledge that these take different kinds of skill or strategy.

Case in point: I just played some 4-person FFA today with some friends, and I'm more often used to playing 2-person, whether it's with items or not (it's usually not, but the point is made irrespective of that). I can't pull out a lighter character that I might be more inclined to play with in a 1v1 situation. I gain a large strategic advantage by playing as a heavier character in a 4FFA. In any items match, I gain a large advantage by playing as a faster character. In a vanilla (no-items, 1v1) match these two aforementioned factors don't have the same advantage weight.

If there's a difference there, then that must certainly show that the matches aren't equivalent in function.

Q.E.D. My above point.

 

[orintemple]

Yet another one comes from the "Brawl Rush of '08"

 

[dan smith]

The simple fact of the matter is, that if you like items, it means you're a bad person. Not my opinion, just the way it is.

 

[Dantarion]

This thread should have been over a long time ago, but heres my two cents.

Okay, at the Worcester Regional Tournament Nintendo ran, two of my friends were fighting on the big screen. Assist Trophy comes....its Tingle.....Tingle...SPAWNS a bunch of hammers!.

The rest of the match turned into a hammer fight, and the actual epic fight was ruined.

If items were not random, they would be fine. But they are.


Yes, you do have to pratice with items to become good with items. However, they will NEVER be used in tournament play due to certain items being SO much better than others, random placement, random spawning, and did I mention, RANDOMNESS?

And yes, the game does really like to spawn bombs while people are charging smashes.

 

[LavisFiend]

My mommy says I am the best item in the world. =)

Seriously though, all the characters are trophies, which happen to be items...

So technically, you already ARE playing with items with or without the item list items.

MY LOGIX IS IRREFUTABLE!

 

[Nymphetamine]

Sorry but i say
items=noobs
real players go solo

 

[BlackWhiteOrange]

Holy Sh*t are you a dumb*ss.

Using items in tournaments is akin to having people throw rocks on a tennis court during a serious match. Sure, it would add "strategy" (which would consist of picking up items and throwing them or, in the tennis example, aiming at the rock to make the ball bounce off of it unexpectedly) but it would make a mockery of smash bros (or tennis) as a competitive game (sport).

You have quite obviously browsed the forums, picked up on the fact that people spew "you're comparing brawl to melee" as an excuse to avoid actually having to justify themselves, and used the tactic to rant about how noobs like you should be given a fair go because it's so unfair that people are better/more talented than you.

It's not about "adapting" at all. Don't set yourself up as some great player looking down at the pitiful professional players who don't use items. Judging by your attitude you are NOT a good or even a decent player and I would bet good money that you've never been to a tournament, or that if you did you got your *** kicked. You suck at smash bros, get over it, practice, learn, improve, don't make up excuses as to why you suck.

 

[Kietharr]

I dislike items for the same reason I hate hazard heavy levels like Norfair, it's random. I can't count the number of times a bomb-omb or other explosive has popped up right above me doing an upsmash or the times that items drop for characters that are usually balanced because they have no projectile attack and become too powerful with access to VERY good projectiles.

 

[Elidibus]

Hey guys! I have an idea. Let's bring back the glory days of item camping and memorizing how items spawn in a match. That way, we know exactly when what item has the highest chance of dropping and we set our selves in a position to grab it before the other character.

Ok, seriously. I don't use items becuase, quite honestly, i would win alot more of my matches. And they would be easier wins. It's pretty simple. Picture Marth. Now give him a heart container. And then some mines to throw. Then a beamsword. Some characters just become more broken with items.

Let's say your main is Dedede, and you're in an item match against Sonic. Good luck grabbing items if you haven't memorized the spawn points.

See, the point is, items don't suck. But there's a factor of randomization that give two players an unequal playing field. I prefer the competitive field be as even as possible before fighting. That includes removing random elements to achieve that. Items gots ta' go.

But you like playing with them? Go ahead. I have fun without, and some people have fun with em. And, when it comes down to it, play to have fun!

 

[NKCell]

For starters I can play both none items and items. But I fancy items more cause it takes more skill. A lot of people are applying melee logic to freaking brawl it just doesn't carry over too well.

This is fallacy. Items are a crutch. I've seen players that couldn't KO without an item even if their life depended on it. Playing without items will make you a better player as you learn better spacing and the intimate properties of your character's moves. You will not learn that if you are chasing around the stage after randomly dropping fans and beam swords.

This is why people that play without items are better than people who solely play with items. I played without items with a friend of mine, and when I joined a group that always played with items I was the top player amongst them.

But, why the hell do you care if people play without items? They're having fun without them, you're having fun with them... just stop trolling.

 

[Raustblackdragon]

It's like saying Rock-Paper-Scissors requires skill.

But it DOES take skill in japan! ever heard of Jan Ken Pon?

Wait...

Brawl is made in japan...

Brawl has items...

saying items takes skill is like saying rock paper scissors takes skill...

In Japan, where brawl was made, rock paper scissors takes skill...

In Japan, using items takes skill...

ITEMS FOR JAPANESE BRAWL TOURNAMENTS!

 

[Raustblackdragon]

Using items in tournaments is akin to having people throw rocks on a tennis court during a serious match. Sure, it would add "strategy" (which would consist of picking up items and throwing them or, in the tennis example, aiming at the rock to make the ball bounce off of it unexpectedly) but it would make a mockery of smash bros (or tennis) as a competitive game (sport).

ONE DIFFERENCE MY FRIEND:

Sakurai PROGRAMMED ITEMS INTO BRAWL.

The makers of Tennis said NOTHING about throwing rocks into the court.

it would be a mockery of smash bros. NOT to use items.

 

[mista_mista]

Why isn't this closed? The OP is either a troll or an idiot.

 

[derek2L84U]

Just to say, I appreciate your bravery.

 

[Hey_its_YO]

For starters I can play both none items and items. But I fancy items more cause it takes more skill..

as soon as i read that i knew not 2 read anymore of ur bull****

 

[UltiMario]

If you want to try to see how terribly items can spawn and blow your mutha ****ing head off, go play 15-min Brawl, then you will complain about how badly you want every item banned.

 

[Flaming Dragon Wang]

Why do you continue to fuel this topic with posts? Let it die.

We already proved that he's a ****. Just let him fester in a pool of his own idiocy.

 

[Raustblackdragon]

If you want to try to see how terribly items can spawn and blow your mutha ****ing head off, go play 15-min Brawl, then you will complain about how badly you want every item banned.

I'm no tournament man, but even I see the problem in that logic. In 15 minute brawl, there are 5+ enemies targeting only YOU. of course items are gonna put you in a world of hurt. But they'd put you in that same world if tournaments allowed the 3rd and fourth place tournament fighters gang up and help one of the two final round combatants.

Items are part of the game, and something that TRUE smash masters should learn.


1: Items get banned in Melee tournaments.

Sakurai responds by putting more items in Brawl.

2: Tournament people arrange characters into tiers and ridicule those who don't accept that only 1/5 of the characters in brawl are tournament viable.

Sakurai responds by balancing out the characters to undermine the Brawl tier list.

3: Tournament People ban stages for being "unfairly random or cheap"

Sakurai responds by nearly DOUBLING the number of stages, making MOST of them up for tournament banishment, and making a STAGE builder, so people can make their OWN unfair and random stages.

Conclusion: "Pros" are against everything Sakurai stands for. you are mutilating his game.

 

[Justice7541]

I'm no tournament man, but even I see the problem in that logic. In 15 minute brawl, there are 5+ enemies targeting only YOU. of course items are gonna put you in a world of hurt. But they'd put you in that same world if tournaments allowed the 3rd and fourth place tournament fighters gang up and help one of the two final round combatants.

Items are part of the game, and something that TRUE smash masters should learn.


1: Items get banned in Melee tournaments.

Sakurai responds by putting more items in Brawl.

2: Tournament people arrange characters into tiers and ridicule those who don't accept that only 1/5 of the characters in brawl are tournament viable.

Sakurai responds by balancing out the characters to undermine the Brawl tier list.

3: Tournament People ban stages for being "unfairly random or cheap"

Sakurai responds by nearly DOUBLING the number of stages, making MOST of them up for tournament banishment, and making a STAGE builder, so people can make their OWN unfair and random stages.

Conclusion: "Pros" are against everything Sakurai stands for. you are mutilating his game.

His logic was fine. I don't think you quite get it. Look at it this way:

In a 15-Minute Melee, you have to stay alive for 15 minutes. Even if you're ridiculously good and can completely pwn the CPU without taking any damage whatsoever, it doesn't change the fact that, somewhere during that 15 minute interval, a bomb WILL spawn in front of your charging smash, or a Golden Hammer will spawn on the other side of the stage and there's nothing you can do about it. Congratulations, you just wasted 15 minutes of your life because you didn't have the "skill" to "adapt" to the unavoidable random factor.

But seriously, this topic needs to die already. The OP has already proven to everyone's satisfaction that he has the argumentative abilities of a chipmunk. He'd been proven wrong by the first page, yet he continues to spout his phailogic.

Also, lol @ torture "analogy". He also shows how little he knows about anti-terrorism law. Ironically, my professor, who literally wrote the book on torture, used that very argument in his lecture describing how any justification behind the use of "enhanced interrogation techniques" is basically BS.

 

[CT Chia]

items in no way takes more skill to play...

as u said, theyr randomly generated. a heart or giant mush could drop next to ur opponent and all that drops next to u is a fan. thats real fair lol

 

[Jooce Bocks]

1: Items get banned in Melee tournaments.

Sakurai responds by putting more items in Brawl.

Duh? Did you think Sakurai was going to make a new Smash Bros. game with no new items, whether or not we wanted them? If you want to use this as proof that Sakurai wants us to play this way, then why can we turn these items off?

2: Tournament people arrange characters into tiers and ridicule those who don't accept that only 1/5 of the characters in brawl are tournament viable.

Sakurai responds by balancing out the characters to undermine the Brawl tier list.

Again, duh? Did you really think that any game developer is going to purposely underbalance characters so a tier list could be made? Of course the characters are going to seem more balanced at first since there are many years of Smash Bros' history to compare upon.

3: Tournament People ban stages for being "unfairly random or cheap"

Sakurai responds by nearly DOUBLING the number of stages, making MOST of them up for tournament banishment, and making a STAGE builder, so people can make their OWN unfair and random stages.

Once again, pardon my language, but no ****! Of course he is going to make more stages, it's sounding like you expected him to make the next version of the game to have absolutely nothing in it. These things are put in to make the game fun, not to make these things competitively viable. You say it is so people can make their "OWN unfair and random" as if "unfair and random" are fair competitive conditions.

Conclusion: "Pros" are against everything Sakurai stands for. you are mutilating his game.

So we are mutilating the game by using the more balanced features he put into it? To say he wants us to use items and stages because he put them there is no better a case than us saying that he gave us the option to get rid of them.

 

[Jooce Bocks]

I agree earlier that items place a handicap, but I believe they present a handicap to the better player, especially in a competitive scene. Lets look at Player A and Player B: Player A is the #1 ranked player in the world, Player B is the #2 ranked player in the world. Both players main Marth, so we know there is character balance in their matches. Both players play equally well with items on or off. Now lets look at tournament results of this.

Tournament 1 – No Items
There are ten matches. 9/10 matches, Player A wins. Player A doesn’t completely dominate these matches, but as the slightly better player, he wins almost all the time. The games almost all end with Player A at one remaining stock and about 50% when he finally delivers the finishing blow; only exception being the one game where Player B really stepped up his game and was able to raise that % from 50 to the final KO. We can determine from these results, whether the tournament was best 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 5 (I’ve never seen tournaments go higher than 3 out of 5), that Player A is the better player. Now lets look at Tournament 2.

Tournament 2 – Items
Same players, same rules, only items are on this time. The results change, however, to 6/10 matches for Player A. Player B won round 1, round 3, round 5, and round 9.
Round 1 went as any round in the No Items tournament, yet at that final stock, Player B, while caught in a combo that would normally lead to a KO, gains invincibility from a Star and is able to utilize this to take the stock and win. Both players are top end players. You may try to argue that Player A should have dodged better thereafter, but the fact you try to force on us is that both players should be able to fully utilize what is given to them. Both of these players can do this, so it came down to which one of them was lucky enough to receive this benefit. Invincibility just happened to be a large enough advantage to decide the match.
Round 3 also goes the same, but halfway through the match, Player A, while swinging at Player B, gets hit by a newly spawned Bob-omb. This loss of a stock destroys Player A’s usual one-stock advantage. There was nothing Player A could do to stop this loss of stock as he could not dodge mid-swing.
Round 5 is seemingly fair, but is much like the round in the No Items Tournament; no random, game-breaking situations occur. Items spawn in fair conditions, but Player B is able to step his game up and take this match.
Round 9, on the first stock, Player B, while performing an aerial combo, realizes he has caught an item. Player A, being as quick as he is, realizes an item was caught. Since the spawning and catching was so quick, neither player knows what the item is before Player B throws it. Player A, knowing an item was thrown, but not knowing what was thrown, responds by spot dodging. While a spot dodge would avoid many items in this game, Player A got unlucky and this item happened to be a Smart Bomb, and is then caught in the explosion and KOed.

As can be seen, the results of the items tournament do not seem as fair. Player B still had his game where he was able to step up and win, and Player A still won a majority of the matches, but 3 of the matches went to Player B due to random occurrences. Since occurrences like these are RANDOM, and probability doesn’t follow set rules, they could have occurred in any sequence of rounds. They are just as likely to occur in rounds 1, 2, and 3 as they are to occur in round 5, 7 and 10. They are also just as likely to not occur as they are to occur. If they all occurred in rounds 1, 2, and 3, this would make Player B seem completely dominant in a 2 of 3 or 3 of 5 tournament. If they occurred in matches 5, 7, and 10, Player A is still going to get his rightfully deserved wins, with Player B possibly getting that round where he is able to step up and win.

Items, while not always, WILL have their moments where probability dominates skill. These moments are not welcome in a competitive scene.

 

[-Linko-]

First of all, the TC is a troll. He didn't make any serious argument at all.

Second, something that you must read if you REALLY think that items are gamebreaking whor3s that always break matches:

I'm planning on making a spreadsheet so that it's easier to read this data... but I'll do that later.

ITEM TEST 1

Global Variables
Stage: Final Destination
Character: Mario (Both)
Style: 1v1
Human Players: 0
CPU Players: 2 (Lvl 9 and Lvl 7)
Time Limit: 3:00
Stock: None


Control Set Results
Matches Played: 10
Matches Won: (Lvl 9 = 9) ; (Lvl 7 = 1)
Sudden Death Wins: (Lvl 9 = 0) ; (Lvl 7 = 1)
Total Kills in All Matches: (Lvl 9 = 20) ; (Lvl 7 = 8)


Item Set Results
Matches Played: 10
Matches Won: (Lvl 9 = 9) ; (Lvl 7 = 1)
Sudden Death Wins: (Lvl 9 = 0) ; (Lvl 7 = 1)
Total Kills in All Matches: (Lvl 9 = 20) ; (Lvl 7 = 12)
Number of Kills Using Items: (Lvl 9 = 5) ; (Lvl 7 = 3)


Item Information
Item Rate: Low

Items Used: (Sandbag) (Food) (Dragoon) (Super Mushroom) (Poison Mushroom) (Warp Star) (Metal Box) (Bunny Hood) (Stopwatch) (Lightning) (Beam Sword) (Home Run Bat) (Fan) (Lip's Stick) (Star Rod) (Super Scope) (Ray Gun) (Fire Flower) (Cracker Launcher) (Motion Sensor Bomb) (Gooey Bomb) (Mr. Freezie) (Smoke Ball) (Pitfall) (Hothead) (Mr. Saturn) (Green Shell) (Banana Peel) (Bumper) (Spring) (Unira) (Soccer Ball) (Franklin Badge) (Screw Attack)

Items Not Used: (Smash Ball) (Assist Trophy) (Pokeball) (Containers) (Blast Box) (Maxim Tomato) (Heart Container) (Starman) (Superspicy Curry) (Hammer) (Golden Hammer) (Bob-omb) (Smart Bomb) (Deku Nut) (Team Healer)

Item On/Off Ratio = 34:14

Post-test Writeup


This test was mainly to establish a benchmark for future tests, but I really like how this one came out. The two CPU players assured that I always knew the exact difference in skill, which made for a good control group. I would have liked to have more matches per set, but I simply didn't have the time; that's what future tests are for, I suppose.

In the control group, it was obvious that the lvl 9 would consistantly win over the lvl 7, which is what you would expect; they are just far apart enough in skill to assure this, but not so far that the lvl 7 doesn't have a chance in hell to win. The lvl 7's only win came from a sudden death, which is basically a coin toss, anyway. The item set is where the results get interesting.

I chose a very conservative item set for this test to use as a benchmark, and honestly, things came out exactly as I expected them to. The results were barely different from the control set, with the main change being a larger total kill count. The numerics do not show this, but I observed much more dodging from the CPU's (both at appropriate and inappropriate times) with items on. Numerics also cannot show the behavior of the CPU's, which was interesting to say the least. The CPU player has trouble picking up items, as even a lvl 9 refuses to use a dash attack to pick up items (which is faster, safer, and more efficient than simply stopping at an item and picking it up). Both CPU players always walked to items, rarely dashing at all. The AI is not very good at handling certain items, as well, as the Cracker Launcher was totally ineffective (they both just fired at the ground the whole time, as fast as possible), while the Super Scope couldn't be used near the edge, as the CPU would usually fall off while rapid firing, causing a SD.

An interesting note is that when any mushroom spawned, the CPU players hesitated to pick it up; I think this is the crux of why the mushrooms, stopwatch, and lightning are, though a little unbalanced, still viable items: because there is an element of risk involved, sometimes it is better to just leave the item alone.

I think that, based off the results from this benchmark, a final item set will be able to include almost all of the items. Due to Sephi's bomb video, as well as experience over the last week, I'm reletively sure that bombs (or at least Bob-ombs, Smart Bombs, and maybe Deku Nuts) will need regulation of some kind, due to the fact that A ) a stray attack or bad spawn means death in many cases, which was a big problem with exploding containers both in the past and now, and B ) because skillful item usage is a concern and these items can score kills at low percentages with little skill involved (simply throw and enjoy). Smash Balls, Assists, and Pokeballs, due to their power and (in the case of Assists and Pokeballs) random nature will, most likely, be decided on a tournament-by-tournament basis, with CCL approval for general use. Two hammers is unneccessary; the basic one will more than likely be enough. Healers... well, are simply too powerful for how easy it is to get them. Starmen and Curry need more testing, but they probably will be fine, as in order for them to be effective, you still have to chase down your opponent.

Again, I feel that this test proved a lot for item viability in a competitive setting. I will have results from an actual tournament this Sunday, so I will use the item list that is currently in the news post of this thread for that.

Alright, I finished another round of testing tonight; this time, we're doing 2v2! Let's get to it.

--------------
2v2 Test Set
--------------

GLOBAL VARIABLES

Teams:
Blue Team - Pit(lvl 9) and Ganondorf(lvl 9)
vs.
Red Team - Pit(lvl 7) and Ganondorf(lvl 7)

Stage: Battlefield

Rules: 3:00, No Stock, Team Attack ON

Items Disabled (for ITEM SET): (Containers) (Blast Box) (Maxim Tomato) (Heart Container) (Starman) (Superspicy Curry) (Bomb-omb) (Motion Sensor Bomb) (Gooey Bomb) (Smart Bomb) (Deku Nut)

---------------------
Control Set Results
---------------------

Blue Team Total Wins = 8 out of 10
Wins in Sudden Death = 3
B. Pit Kill Count = 18
B. Ganon Kill Count = 24

Red Team Total Wins = 2 out of 10
Wins in Sudden Death = 1
R. Pit Kill Count = 18
B. Ganon Kill Count = 13

CONTROL VIDEO TO-BE-UPLOADED

--------------------
ITEM SET RESULTS
--------------------

Blue Team Total Wins = 8 out of 10
Wins in Sudden Death = 2
B. Pit Kill Count = 22
B. Ganon Kill Count = 28

Red Team Total Wins = 2 out of 10
Wins in Sudden Death = 1
R. Pit Kill Count = 12
B. Ganon Kill Count = 23

ITEM VIDEO TO-BE-UPLOADED

--------------------------
2v2 TEST CONCLUSIONS
--------------------------

When I started this test, I was still a little skeptical of what the results might be. I will admit that I was worried that 2v2 might exaggerate some of the balance problems past what we could anticipate or handle... but from the results of the test, I can now say my fears were quite unfounded.

The numerical data from the two sets matches up almost perfectly; in fact, they match up more closely than the data from my previous 1v1 test! This will be more evident when you watch footage from the sets, but this is due, I think, in part to Team Attack. I'll discuss this in greater depth later.

The choice to turn on Smash Balls AND all the summons was a tough one to make, but in the end it was a good decision. I learned a lot from this test about the mechanics of how summons, Smash Balls, and the Dragoon play a role in 2v2 matches, and they actually work partly how you would expect, and partly how you wouldn't.

Smash Balls are interesting items in that they shift the entire focus of battle, as well as give the holder access to (frankly) gamebreaking strength... in 1v1 and FFA. Team matches, however, hold an interesting surprise that gimps the Final Smash to some degree, but only if Team Attack is on. Many might say, "A human player would never hit his teammate with a FS, and in some cases makes it easier to land a FS." This is true, but only to a small degree. In timed matches, team kills come with a heavy price: both the killer and the killed lose a point. Almost every single Final Smash in the game has some AOE property that makes it difficult to land certain Final Smashes without seriously endangering the teammate; even Marth's Final Smash can hit people directly around the target, and so if your teammate just happens to be around your opponent, you might have a difficult situation on your hands. This is the beauty of Team Attack 2v2.

Summons and AT's have the same problem as Final Smashes: Pokemon and Assists attack indiscriminately due to Team Attack, and will seek out your partner just as quickly as they will seek out your foes. Using Pokemon and Assists come at a heavy risk.

The Dragoon adds another layer to the battle for parts: both teammates holding a part of the Dragoon. Sure, it may be easy to assign one teammate 'Dragoon duty', but what if you're closer to a piece than he is and your foe is closing in on the piece? Most people would go ahead and get the piece in place of his teammate so that the enemy doesn't get it... but then the problem arises on how to get that part to the teammate. After all, you can't willingly drop Dragoon pieces; pieces HAVE to be beaten out of you. Do you hold onto the piece? Or let your teammate with two pieces beat you up a little to get the last piece? Risk dying yourself so that he might have a chance to kill with it?

Oh, the choices.

Overall, a very productive round of testing. I think this proves that Final Smashes and summons may very well have a place in 2v2. It also shows that items are nowhere near as gamebreaking as people assume they are, at least in team battles.

One more interesting note, however: even though I had items turned off, the Red Team still was able to get a Pity FS every now and then. I'm not sure whether this has to do with how I turned off the items (all at once, instead of one-by-one) or if you simply can't turn off Pity Final Smashes...

Items should have banlists instead of being directly banned. Bombs, and all explosives should be banned. Recoveries should be banned. But Mr. Saturn should be banned?

 

[mthegreatone]

the only thing that shouldn't be banned is the Baseball Bat

 

[Frey]

the only thing that shouldn't be banned is the Baseball Bat

lololol, youll just dropkick reflect any thrown bats at you!

 

[Maveritchell]

Re: That "statistical test"

10 out of 10 (see what I did there) statisticians will tell you that 10 runs does not a statistically viable test make.

It's certainly an interesting idea, but to get clearer results you should make more clearly defined parameters (as well as increasing the statistical viability). I.e. create a greater level of differentiation in skill level (maybe L9 vs. L5 instead) and create a higher rate of item consumption. This will serve to more fully show if there is any data there supporting one idea or another.

And did I mention 10 tests is nowhere near enough?