So...none items user....cant adapt?

[COLDshiver]

. As a item fighter and none item fighter. I tell you that all to often does my "enemy" get cocky when they get a heart only to loose that whole stock. Its more than possible. Esp if the player becomes more motivated to end that stock since he/she grabbed that heart.

Let's say a heart spawned next to you. You would pick it up, and being an experienced player, would not get cocky and use that extra health to your advantage and annihilate the enemy. The heart basically gave you an extra life for you to dominate the enemy with, and also an extra advantage over the enemy.

 

[pirkid]

DanteSmash7, you have been owned 23 times, 9 consecutive. Stop wasting our time.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I let Wario read your "real life vs video game" comment and he has something to say:

Wario: WAH-AH-AH-AH.
HEE HEE HEE HEE
BUA-HA-HA-HA
KEKEKEKE
JEJEJEJE
MUFUFUFU
AK AK AK AK

and so on, so forth.

Firstly, whether it be a game or real life, the princaple is the same, and it will ALWAYS be the same. I would LOVE to see you contact the Olympics and convince them to allow random elements in the competition.

"Oh, let's make this race a bit more exciting and activate China and Australia's rocket booster shoes. The others have surely trained enough to use thier skill to ADAPT..."

Yeah, that'd SUCK.

 

[Papapaint]

Or something like...

"Let's randomly hold riots and severely injure some of the players!"

Oh, wait...

 

[DanteSmash7]

Let's take a look at the facts:

1) You clearly have no understanding of item balance. You think that "every item can be offset" and that the "element of chance is minimal". This fails to explain why, if I get a Landmaster on Final Destination, there's nothing you can do except say to yourself, "I can totally counter this Landmaster" as you go flying off the screen.

2) You have no conception of character balance. You think Marth needs items against projectile users. This explains why no one ever plays Marth against Link in tourneys, because Marth is useless. After all, there's no way he can counter the bomb spam. I mean, when I play Marth and I see my opponent go to Link, I usually just forfeit. There's no point in fighting an impossible battle.

3) You fail to understand the rules of logic. All you can say is "None users can't adapt to items" over and over. Convincing yourself through rote wins you no points as a matter of debate. I'm willing to bet that most of the good players who you claim "can't adapt" could probably pwn you regardless. In fact, I'm going to put my money on the guess that your definition of "can't adapt" is, in actuality, something along the lines of "I once beat that guy who was clearly much better than me because I got two Super Hammers in a row and he couldn't adapt to them".

None of those are facts pup. But yeah. All are assumptions. Take this beyond game and apply it in real life as well.

"Assumptions are the mother of all fu.ck ups."

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

The point still stands: the same rules apply to every kind of official competition in the world: that players should have equal opportunity to win at the most basic level, and that required skill/strength/intelligence alone is the determining factor, not LUCK.

Pokemon is a game that relies a lot on luck, but Double Team is banned from serious play because it turns the game into PURE luck, and its only counters are over-specific.

 

[Justice7541]

None of those are facts pup. But yeah. All are assumptions. Take this beyond game and apply it in real life as well.

"Assumptions are the mother of all fu.ck ups."

That's a clever way to address an argument you know you can't counter. Oh, no, wait, it isn't. It's just backing out. Also, at this point, you can properly be moderated for offensive language, although I suppose it could have been done before.

You know, I do martial arts myself. Just the other week, I was at a local tournament held between the colleges in the area. Basically, what we did was throw random objects, like sticks and rocks, into the fighting ring. Occasionally, we'd toss live firearms in there. The logic was that a true martial artist should be able to adapt to the situation. I mean, I saw a 5'4" taekwondo yellow belt beat a 6'2" karate 2nd Dan who has crosstrained in jiu-jitsu and Muay Thai, because he managed to get to a crowbar that landed behind him. I mean, what kind of real martial artist can't adapt to a crowbar? The kid that won in the end with the crowbar was the one with the REAL skills.

Get real, buddy. Chance is inherently both a random factor and an unbalancing one in any fighting game. It's the equivalent of playing Counterstrike and have a grenade just randomly fall from the sky and kill players for no reason.

 

[Papapaint]

None of those are facts pup. But yeah. All are assumptions. Take this beyond game and apply it in real life as well.

"Assumptions are the mother of all fu.ck ups."

Please, please let me play you with my marth and no items. Or with items. I don't care.

 

[Papapaint]

It's the equivalent of playing Counterstrike and have a grenade just randomly fall from the sky and kill players for no reason.

I swear, it feels like that happens sometimes.

 

[DanteSmash7]

Get real, buddy. Chance is inherently both a random factor and an unbalancing one in any fighting game. It's the equivalent of playing Counterstrike and have a grenade just randomly fall from the sky and kill players for no reason.

So, you would stay and let the grenade blow up on you. I wouldn't, there is our difference in approach. I take it you fancy me?

None of those are facts, your argument is filled with broken inner forum hatred towards me. Cause my argument brings conflict to your system of thinking towards...yes thats right a game.

-almightypancake

For sure always down for a game but right now am tired out. Was fighting two my friends and I wont be able to ditch out as much of an effort. You know, when you play too much and try to do anything else and your fingers hurt. That.

 

[pirkid]

That's a clever way to address an argument you know you can't counter. Oh, no, wait, it isn't. It's just backing out. Also, at this point, you can properly be moderated for offensive language, although I suppose it could have been done before.

You know, I do martial arts myself. Just the other week, I was at a local tournament held between the colleges in the area. Basically, what we did was throw random objects, like sticks and rocks, into the fighting ring. Occasionally, we'd toss live firearms in there. The logic was that a true martial artist should be able to adapt to the situation. I mean, I saw a 5'4" taekwondo yellow belt beat a 6'2" karate 2nd Dan who has crosstrained in jiu-jitsu and Muay Thai, because he managed to get to a crowbar that landed behind him. I mean, what kind of real martial artist can't adapt to a crowbar? The kid that won in the end with the crowbar was the one with the REAL skills.

Get real, buddy. Chance is inherently both a random factor and an unbalancing one in any fighting game. It's the equivalent of playing Counterstrike and have a grenade just randomly fall from the sky and kill players for no reason.

Just waiting for him to say "No u." again.


EDIT:

So, you would stay and let the grenade blow up on you. I wouldn't, there is our difference in approach. I take it you fancy me?

None of those are facts, your argument is filled with broken inner forum hatred towards me. Cause my argument brings conflict to your system of thinking towards...yes thats right. A game.

And here it is.


Your OP is not an argument, it's an opinion statement that your trying to reinforce into competitive Smahers that have played the game for half their gaming life. Get real.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Did I just see him try the Life Card? Ololololol.

It's just a game, of course. No smart person would EVER argue about a game, LET ALONE MAKE A TOPIC CHALLENGING A WELL-ESTABLISHED STERILE PLAYING METHOD

 

[DanteSmash7]

Your OP is not an argument, it's an opinion statement that your trying to reinforce into competitive Smahers that have played the game for half their gaming life. Get real.

The thread is my opinion and arguments(Bias and all), as are facts to reinforce those. Difference is, his arguments point towards attacking me, more than the argument at hand. Not too hard to read is it?


So Competitive smashing started where? Oh yes, with items. Hmm. See your very well rounded about the origins of smashing....


But staying on topic, yes.

If you see an item and choose not to tactical avoid, dodge, evade, attack, mid - air grab. Then yes, it will take you out.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Either way, all your so-called "fakts" have been solidly countered numerous times by facts that have stood the test of time: aka competitive rules.

 

[pirkid]

Either way, all your so-called "fakts" have been solidly countered numerous times by facts that have stood the test of time: aka competitive rules.

And I have yet to see a solid counter to those arguments, making this a pointless flame thread.
I'm sorry Dante, but you're gonna have to come up with something better then "Itemz tak skillzz tu us3 n av01d n stuffs" to sway us.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

The thread is my opinion and arguments(Bias and all), as are facts to reinforce those. Difference is, his arguments point towards attacking me, more than the argument at hand. Not too hard to read is it?


So Competitive smashing started where? Oh yes, with items. Hmm. See your very well rounded about the origins of smashing....


But staying on topic, yes.

If you see an item and choose not to tactical avoid, dodge, evade, attack, mid - air grab. Then yes, it will take you out.

And competitive smashing changed because items are too random and give certain characters advantages. GLA-HOIV...

Also, if you have to dodge or otherwise deal with a random falling hazard, it still gives your opponent the upper hand, since you've just been forced to move in a certain way that will allow them to close in on you.

"I'll dodge that bomb with a roll. Oh, hello there, Marth. Are you running in to punish my after-dodge frames? Because you never had to dodge a bomb, didn't you?"

 

[Klowne]

You can't move out of the way of the bob-omb. It spawned on top of you. YOU'RE ALREADY DEAD.

Stop saying you'd just "avoid" or "adapt to it" somehow. The point is that it's impossible in that situation.

 

[DanteSmash7]

And I have yet to see a solid counter to those arguments, making this a pointless flame thread.
I'm sorry Dante, but you're gonna have to come up with something better then "Itemz tak skillzz tu us3 n av01d n stuffs" to sway us.

Its littered throughout the thread. Hence why its lasted this long. In essence many acknowledge it takes more skill to use items. But fear the random factor which takes a "true pro" to adapt to. Its at the start of the thread to be honest. Jumping in at random isn't nice -_-.

 

[Firebert]

You can't move out of the way of the bob-omb. It spawned on top of you. YOU'RE ALREADY DEAD.

Stop saying you'd just "avoid" or "adapt to it" somehow. The point is that it's impossible in that situation.

But you must recover!

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Here's another point to consider:

Say that there was a ROBO-DANTESMASH. A robot with the exact same skills and playing style, who played only ditto matches. He can "adaPt!1" to anything that DanteSmash can. It is an impossibly even match of skill between this abomination and its original model.

Now at the very start of the match, ROBO-DANTESMASH has a spicy curry fall right in front of him. He also gets a Pokeball and Ho-oh comes out.

It is UNDENIABLE that in this situation, ROBO-DANTESMASH has an unfair advantage for no reason other than luck.

And if you try to "adapt" your way out of this, ROBO-DANTESMASH will "adapt" right back at you just as much!

 

[DanteSmash7]

But you must recover!

Yeah recovery seems to pass the minds of many.

Yeah a bomb might drop on you but is that 100% of the time? Oh nah it ain't, the bombs don't spawn like sudden death bombs. So plz, that is getting old.

 

[Papapaint]

Its littered throughout the thread. Hence why its lasted this long. In essence many acknowledge it takes more skill to use items. But fear the random factor which takes a "true pro" to adapt to. Its at the start of the thread to be honest. Jumping in at random isn't nice -_-.

You aren't responding to my challenges. Play me, I'll show you that the better player will still sauce you. And I don't use items.

 

[Anaxarchus]

yes dante, smash tournies started off with items, and there's a reason they got rid of them.

Say for a minute you are one of the top players in the world, competing in a national championship for a prize of 5,000 dollars. Last life, it's a close battle and both players have 100+ %. your opponent screws up and recovers too high, so you charge a smash attack to KO him, when a bob-omb appears in front of you. There is no option to stop charging the attack, you WILL smash the bomb, and you will lose your 5000 dollars.

these sort of instant-death spawns happen all the time, and it's not just with explosives. the other day I was following my friend off the edge and d-aired, only to have a metal box spawn under me and I plummeted to my death during the animation.

However, even in a less extreme circumstance an item, say a beam sword, spawning next to my opponent gives him an advantage. assuming that we are of an equal skill level, he will now win, despite not being better. In a tournament setting, with money on the line, it is stupid to give out random advantages to each player.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Yeah recovery seems to pass the minds of many.

Yeah a bomb might drop on you but is that 100% of the time? Oh nah it ain't, the bombs don't spawn like sudden death bombs. So plz, that is getting old.

So you're forced to recover for what reason? Certainly not because of your opponent's skill, that's for sure.

 

[Frey]

Lol you do know fire was joking right? You must recover is one of the quotes from the dojo.

 

[DanteSmash7]

yes dante, smash tournies started off with items, and there's a reason they got rid of them.

Say for a minute you are one of the top players in the world, competing in a national championship for a prize of 5,000 dollars. Last life, it's a close battle and both players have 100+ %. your opponent screws up and recovers too high, so you charge a smash attack to KO him, when a bob-omb appears in front of you. There is no option to stop charging the attack, you WILL smash the bomb, and you will lose your 5000 dollars.

these sort of instant-death spawns happen all the time, and it's not just with explosives. the other day I was following my friend off the edge and d-aired, only to have a metal box spawn under me and I plummeted to my death during the animation.

However, even in a less extreme circumstance an item, say a beam sword, spawning next to my opponent gives him an advantage. assuming that we are of an equal skill level, he will now win, despite not being better. In a tournament setting, with money on the line, it is stupid to give out random advantages to each player.

Its not an advantage, because both have the opportunity to be tactical on fly, if your playing for the money. I would think they have played many scenarios, good and bad. That being said, this "Bomb in the face' argument seems to be very common as a argument point. Wonder who came up with it.

Its like that justification for torture by that " There is this guy and he knows where the bomb is, get the info outta em." If the dudes that dedicated, he isn't going to speak and is willing to die for what he/she believes in. Extreme example but shines a bit of light. People in these forums tend to tide reality with smash examples so. Maybe this might help.

(In regards to your challenge I said I would but you cant expect me 2 play at my best right now, my hands are acking from crazy smash battles)

 

[SenorPresidente]

Its littered throughout the thread. Hence why its lasted this long. In essence many acknowledge it takes more skill to use items. But fear the random factor which takes a "true pro" to adapt to. Its at the start of the thread to be honest. Jumping in at random isn't nice -_-.

*AHEM*
I have yet to see you argue against this statement you just keep ignoring it no matter how many times it is brought up.

Want to try explicitly explaining to us how to "Adapt" to a bomb spawning on top of you on your last stock?

Two players of very close skill level. Both down to one stock. Both around 100 damage. One players does a smash attack and a bomb appears. There is no adapting. There is nothing the player can due. The better player didn't win the match the player that got lucky did. This beats the whole point of competition.

I don't think you understand. You are charging your smash attack and a bomb appears or an exploding create etc in front of you. There is nothing you can do but lose..

More insightful than any post on this thread typed by you.

Seriously, at least three people have given you this scenario: Two players have 1 stock and about 100% damage, one is about to get the kill with a charged smash attack and a bob-omb or explosive crate spawns right in front of them.

They are dead. No ifs ands or buts.

Yet you have ignored that argument and instead say "NEED BETTAR REFLEXES LOOLOL"

More like "need the power to see 5 seconds into the future."

You are charging your smash attack, your percentage is at 130 and a bomb appears or an exploding create etc in front of you. There is nothing you can do but lose.

Why do you keep avoiding this argument when someone brings it up.

 

[Anaxarchus]

Its not an advantage, because both have the opportunity to be tactical on fly, if your playing for the money. I would think they have played many scenarios, good and bad. That being said, this "Bomb in the face' argument seems to be very common as a argument point. Wonder who came up with it.

Its like that justification for torture by that " There is this guy and he knows where the bomb is, get the info outta em." If the dudes that dedicated, he isn't going to speak and is willing to die for what he/she believes in. Extreme example but shines a bit of light. People in these forums tend to tide reality with smash examples so. Maybe this might help.

Are you honestly saying that having a beamsword is not an advantage? It replaces 3 of my attacks with better variants and gives me the option to use a fast and powerful projectile whenever I want. Surely you can't believe that's not helpful.

And no one 'came up' with the "bomb in the face" argument, it's something that happens annoyingly often when items are turned on. and it's used often because it's a perfect example of unavoidable instant death due to items.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

The guy who's on the recieving end of the torture is at a clear disadvantage. That is, he's MUCH MORE LIKELY to give up information than the torturor is to stop torturing. The torturor basically has nothing to lose in this situation. If the torturor is equally dedicated, they have the upper hand. That's a terrible example. Use a better one.

 

[Firebert]

Are you honestly saying that having a beamsword is not an advantage? It replaces 3 of my attacks with better variants and gives me the option to use a fast and powerful projectile whenever I want. Surely you can't believe that's not helpful.

And no one 'came up' with the "bomb in the face" argument, it's something that happens annoyingly often when items are turned on. and it's used often because it's a perfect example of unavoidable instant death due to items.

The "bomb in the face argument" has an annoying cousin called the "smart bomb in the line of fire" argument. I have accidentally triggered this one too many times to count.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Also, lol at the "my hands are sore" excuse. How on earth are you holding that controller? Or are you one of those "CLACKITTY CLACKITTY CLACK" players?

 

[DanteSmash7]

The guy who's on the recieving end of the torture is at a clear disadvantage. That is, he's MUCH MORE LIKELY to give up information than the torturor is to stop torturing. The torturor basically has nothing to lose in this situation. If the torturor is equally dedicated, they have the upper hand. That's a terrible example. Use a better one.

Wow, you are def american.

A. the info that is given would be fake not real and done so to end the Torturing.
B. The culture of the people of these "Bombs" die for what they believe for. I dont know if you can understand that... but they in their warped vision see victory through sacrifice. The type of none return. Dont be so feeble minded.

This argument is a very strong one pup. Think again.

-Anaxarchus

I know the bomb out of no where argument came from somewhere. What I meant is the abuse of this argument to the point of justifying none item battles. Thats beyond me. Cause it hasn't happen to me since I bought brawl so. I guess am one lucky bi.tch. Or really good at not staying...still. That being said, I think why it was more mainstreamed, mob like mentality wins to logic. Even in practical life. traumatized to Bombs in the face sudden death style even though its not sudden death...

 

[Anaxarchus]

I am also not understanding the torture analogy/ how it is related.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Wow, you are def american.

BLAH BLAH BLAH

This argument is a very strong one pup. Think again.

AHAHAHA.

Wasn't it you who said something earlier about assuming being the worst kind of ****-up?

I'm Australian!

Now I'll ask YOU not to be so naive. Humans have an infinate capacity for cruelty and a finite bodily and mental resistance to pain or just displeasure in general. Given that he may give incorrect information, but a skilled organisation could very well have agents with the ability to scan or check up on the information quite quickly. Furthermore, if the torturor is dedicated enough, it's quite possible he'll adapt and commission a bunch of scientists to make him a lie detector, or use some kind of hypnosis or something.

Regarless of this, if this were a competitive situation, where both people are trying to get information from each other, the torturor IS at an advantageous situation.

 

[Papapaint]

I... are we still talking about smash? This has gotten weird.

 

[DanteSmash7]

I am also not understanding the torture analogy/ how it is related.

Thats was in respond to the kid that is cultural ignorant. But basically torturer doesn't have a advantage but is given the illusion of one. Inflict as much damage to this "guy" and it will result in vain. Cause that person belief system is their core.

Basically he thought that the torturer gains the intel in this hypo scenario. But have you ever heard of one case where that has happen. "DUDE we need to know where it is, torture him to get the intel"

No, because its a justification of a un-justifiable act. Enough with educating the feeble minded Ness player. Bit of a rant. But the Torture doesn't have an advantage you sad kid... lol.

"I... are we still talking about smash? This has gotten weird."

Yeah we are, just forget that I expect too much from digital persona. But yeah I will fight u if u r down, but do NOT EXPECT ME 2 BE AT MY PEAK at 3 am -_-.

 

[Frey]

Ok Dante you should just end this topic, because its in an obvious stalemate because you choose to muffle anyone who talks against your beliefs. Seriously, the mods will probably close if you don't end it, and youll risk getting infracted because this topic has lowered down into *********** territory, and part of that(not all of it) is because of how you choose not to listen to what they say. You can just face the facts that items will either

A. Never be allowed, because the tourney guys can do what they must, because they can.

B. If they do make it in, they will be gimped to basic items that don't really add much of an increase.(Im talking about saturns, beamswords, a few guns, and etc.)

Look I play with those rules because people like those rules, so when in rome, you do what the romans do. With my friends however I play with everything on, even if it means that my friends who usually use, lucas, sonic, marth etc, will always get the smash ball before me and usually rely on that to knock down stocks.

If you want the game to be played by your rules, why not step out, and host a tourney with prize money, with whatever you want. Think about it, if you actually want change to be done, you must do it yourself, you do not jump on a forum and rant your opinion out like its fact, because it will blacklist you which unless you enjoy playing with noone, is not a good thing.

To sum it up in a nutshell,

End the topic, getting infracted over this is not worth it. Item proness is in the eye of the beholder. I play items on friendlys. You should host an items tournament to spark the item scene.

Ok now that im done typing, I have one thing left to say....

SUMWON GOTTAH FRAH MEH UP SUM KIRBEH(4kids DEDEDE for the lulz)

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Thats was in respond to the kid that is cultural ignorant. But basically torturer doesn't have a advantage but is given the illusion of one. Inflict as much damage to this "guy" and it will result in vain. Cause that person belief system is their core.

Basically he thought that the torturer gains the intel in this hypo scenario. But have you ever heard of one case where that has happen. "DUDE we need to know where it is, torture him to get the intel"

No, because its a justification of a un-justifiable act. Enough with educating the feeble minded Ness player. Bit of a rant. But the Torture doesn't have an advantage you sad kid... lol.

I'm a Lucas player, moron, so don't assume.

Secondly, the torturor DOES have an advantage in this situation. If it were simply an interrigation, THEN the playing field would be truly even. However, in the situation you outlined, the victim is still subject to unfair pressure, making it unbalanced.

 

[really_calm]

Yeah recovery seems to pass the minds of many.

Yeah a bomb might drop on you but is that 100% of the time? Oh nah it ain't, the bombs don't spawn like sudden death bombs. So plz, that is getting old.

First of all, it does happen. It has happened to most people who play smash with items. Random walking bomb kicks your ***. We keep bringing it up because it counters your argument and you don't respond to it well. Calling people names also doesn't make your position more convincing.

 

[Yuna]

Oh great, it's one of those guys. Seriously, even I have tired of arguing against "them". Can't we just agree to start ignoring "them" all from now on?

I mean, this guy's even using terms like "badass" to motivate why items require more skill.

Edit: And what the hell is up with the way the thread spiraled off topic? Why are people even bothering to reply to someone so illogical?