So I just started playing ice climbers; what I've noticed.

[forward]

I recently stayed with chu dat, and after leaving from his house I've been inspired to play IC. Here are some things I need to know a little more about.

1. Grab combos. There are a few basic ones that everyone should know, like the d throw d air chain, blizzard d throw f smash kill, etc. I'm working on making my own combos tho. I've been working off the up throw, and trying to get nana to f air them to the ground after i up throw.

2. Desyncs. I think these are actually very important, and have a lot of potential. But I don't know many ways to start them. Obviously there is the dodge and roll, I know of the pivot desyncs. How does the jab desync work? I can only desync popo to do a forward b after a jab, but i'm pretty sure you can do more.

3. Saving nana. Sometimes I have a lot of trouble stopping my opponents from killing nana. What moves are good to hit them with while they chase nana down?

 

[mood4food77]

sidestep and hold the move you want nana to do, like c-stick down, otehr than that it's just timing, like wavedashing with ice blocks

 

[forward]

you're dumb -.-

 

[pockyD]

1. why are you trying to fair off the uthrow? fair is pretty much guaranteed off of a dthrow -_-
also, b-throw->b-air is a very solid finisher that i think all ICs should learn

2. i don't desync much, i dunno

3. anything fast; you don't usually have time to set up for the proper attack (which would usually be a flying bair) but you often don't have to, as they aren't paying complete attention to what you're doing. nair, jab, ftilt, anything you can squeeze in is pretty much it

 

[Lixivium]

I've never heard of the jab desynch. Can you jab into a solo Squall Hammer?

 

[mood4food77]

jab desynch, it's tap A then tap forward b as quickly as possible, do it after one jab, pretty fast timing but not really taht hard to do, it's actually really ahrd to do with almsot any other move

thanks forward, i helped you out, you asked for desynching so i gave you otehr methods, rolling behind and downsmashing isn't a bad idea sometimes, just don't overdoe it

but there aren't really many ways to desynch, there's always the hold taunt way to...then there is DD, do it once (i mean go back and forth once) then you lose the HO

 

[pockyD]

the landing desync (the one i'm thinking of is empty sh ff and have popo sh again immediately after he lands while nana ends up staying on the ground because she was in landing animation) is really cool and hard to see coming, but i've yet to actually use it in a match

 

[Reside]

the only thing i really ever do off of an up throw is against fast fallers is
upthrow > dash attack > grab.

down throw > fair > dsmash
works decently well but they can meteor cancel it :/Its fast and looks cool though

your third comment about saving nana im not quite sure what you mean. If the situation is that nana is falling off the edge and your enemy is in between you and nana what to do - usually I will just wavedash right by em and fall off the edge to side-b with nana. Wavedashing right by them works atleast once or twice depending on how well your enemy picks up on your mind games and such.

If your asking what to do against a jigglypuff who is off the edge being gay like jigglys are - then honestly... you dont have alot of options against that. I usually just end up in a situation where nana is dead and i am trying to edge guard to make sure nana's death wasnt in vain.

If your saying there is a C.Falcon or Fox abusing their speed and shining nana all over the place - IC wavedash can be hella fast and there usually for me isnt a huge problem catching up with them to either jab>grab or wavesmash. Dash attack isnt bad against fast fallers either but can be alittle bit slower.

Yes... Desynchs are very important. You really dont need to know a gazillion ways to start desynchs. Spot dodge and roll work plenty find. youll find they catch on to that soon enough and then you can do an emtpy grab. The more you play IC the better feal you get for when they are going to be desynched without you starting it. For example, nana is at the edge of the level and you are recovering with your solo squal, during the time while you are landing and waiting for your solo squal to end nana will still except your commands. When you get the feal for it if you shoot and ice block with nana toward the end of the solo squal you will be desynched. Ice block chaser and grabbing them out of a blizzard is oh so fun.

I think an important thing to learn with IC - When i get most of my kills they are off grabs that I get nana to charge a smash while popo is still holding them. Grab > headbutt (wait a second for nana's empty grab to finish) > forword smash (hit it right after the headbut imidiatly). From there you can either hold on to them and wait for your smash to finesh charging, or you can get the timing down do upthrow them right as the smash releases. Doing it with an upthrow actually hits your enemy in the oposite direction that the smash was facing... screws up their DI and allows you respond to a situation where hitting them backword is better after you already started a forword smash.

 

[Speedsk8er]

I recently stayed with chu dat, and after leaving from his house I've been inspired to play IC. Here are some things I need to know a little more about.

1. Grab combos. There are a few basic ones that everyone should know, like the d throw d air chain, blizzard d throw f smash kill, etc. I'm working on making my own combos tho. I've been working off the up throw, and trying to get nana to f air them to the ground after i up throw.

2. Desyncs. I think these are actually very important, and have a lot of potential. But I don't know many ways to start them. Obviously there is the dodge and roll, I know of the pivot desyncs. How does the jab desync work? I can only desync popo to do a forward b after a jab, but i'm pretty sure you can do more.

3. Saving nana. Sometimes I have a lot of trouble stopping my opponents from killing nana. What moves are good to hit them with while they chase nana down?

Wow, forward wants to play IC! I'm honored. You're an inspiration to my Falco game. ^_^

Anyways....

1. Dthrow Dair is a staple CG. It works on lots of people(except floaties >_< Samus).
Dthrow Dsmash, I dunno how many characters it works on but I'm sure that it works on Sheik and Ganondorf. I find it hard to Dthrow Dair shiek for some reason so I just use that one.
Dthrow Blizzard, Another staple. Works on everyone if they don't DI, i think.

Dthrow SHBlock Only works on fastfallers and it's not guaranteed because they CAN DI. Kinda flashy though.
Dthrow Fair Regrab works on everyone at 0% only, after the first dthrow fair, they'll simply fall to the ground. Not to mention, they can DI the Fair.



2. Roll and dodge desynches are great. but they aren't the only ones.
Dashdance desynch.
Waveland desynch is great.
Whiffed grab desynch. I've been using this a little more recently. It's a hell of a trick just don't use it too often. After missing a grab, you can make nana do whatever you want. Input is the same as a roll or dodge desynch in that you hold the command.
Taunt Desynch. Great for laughs. Basically the same as Whiffed grab/roll desynch
"A" Desynch This one is interesting and I question it's usefulness for you guys in the higher level metagame. Basically after doing any ground "A"button move(jabs, tilts or smashes), use Squall Hammer, resulting in only popo doing it and Nana walking behind him. LOL, I had once thought that I discovered this on my own but then I checked the desynch thread and noticed that it had already been discovered. Pressing Diagonally down will result in Nana doing Blizzard while you do Squall hammer, and since squall hammer ends before blizzard, Popo can land the grab. I don't know of it's usefulness though. Would it be useful against a CCer?

3. LOL, I'd say that it depends on the character. If a CF is flipping your Nana off the stage, it's a hopeless cause. I dunno though, sometimes my Nana is a hell of a fighter. Once, she freaking powersheilded a missile that was headed her way, KOing the Samus. She's awesome sometimes. I'd say use whatever you can to stop the attack, be it jab > grab or jab > Dsmash. The opposing player will ALWAYS read the human controlled player as a greater threat so getting close and giving them a smack or two will usually be enough to get their attention away from Nana.


That's all I can say. I don't think that my advice as viable because my ICs aren't as good as everyone else's so take what I say with a grain of salt.

 

[Buddha]

rofl @ everyone teaching forward how to play ICs.
something tells me he might already know a thing or two. after a month he'll probably be better than all of us due to his pure knowledge of high level matchups and gameplay.

but i digress... here's one tip for ya: use c-stick for reverse dair cg.

might i ask what about ICz inspired you to pick them up?

 

[sk8tinGam0r]

might i ask what about ICz inspired you to pick them up?

id say chu did.

 

[blackanese]

id say chu did.

LMFAOOOOOO

 

[forward]

Alright guys thanks for some of the info. One of the things I started working on is f throw to nana regrab, and up smash from her throw, into desync.

Does anybody know a way to land a nana uptilt after a throw? Can you do d throw, nana wd forward up tilt? I will test that out today

I'm kind of struggling against Fox's. When I watch chu fight fox's, I notice that he uses almost every attack of the IC to defend him self. So far I really only know up air and down smash. I'm starting to understand the spacing of the f smash a bit better, since I realized it hits above them.

I think what I need to work on, is knowing when to use a back air as opposed to a d smash. Say I wavedash away from a fox and I think he will chase me, should I short hop b air or d smash to hit him off of me?

Also, can anyone explain to me the hit box of their neutral air? It has weird hit properties, and I think it might also have two seperate hits, similar to Link's f air.

 

[pockyD]

running away from a pursuing fox, bair is probably the right move

a much wider hit area and lower cooldown lag being the main reasons

 

[Lixivium]

Alright guys thanks for some of the info. One of the things I started working on is f throw to nana regrab, and up smash from her throw, into desync.

Does anybody know a way to land a nana uptilt after a throw? Can you do d throw, nana wd forward up tilt? I will test that out today

There's always the Wobbles combo on floaties: D-throw -> reverse D-air -> U-tilt -> U-air.

Otherwise I'm pretty sure you can only U-tilt people out of D-throws if they DI into you. WD Up-tilt usually doesn't work because it's too slow; fastfallers will tech and floaties will jump out.

I'm kind of struggling against Fox's. When I watch chu fight fox's, I notice that he uses almost every attack of the IC to defend him self. So far I really only know up air and down smash. I'm starting to understand the spacing of the f smash a bit better, since I realized it hits above them.

I think what I need to work on, is knowing when to use a back air as opposed to a d smash. Say I wavedash away from a fox and I think he will chase me, should I short hop b air or d smash to hit him off of me?

Good luck with the F-smash thing; you'd have to start the attack like 20 frames before their move comes out. If you're looking for a less punishable defense I'd use U-tilts and F-tilts instead. The B-air (combined with the jump) comes out just a little too slow for me to use effectively. As far as that particular situation goes, maybe use B-air if he fulljumps and D-smash if he short hops?

Also, can anyone explain to me the hit box of their neutral air? It has weird hit properties, and I think it might also have two seperate hits, similar to Link's f air.

I'm pretty sure the hitbox for any IC attack is the hammer, so watch where it is during the attack. I think what happens is the hammer starts out in front of and underneath the IC's, then swings around behind and above them. It has slightly more priority when behind them. Maybe someone with AR or can get Seanson's Hitbox System to work can confirm this.

 

[Reside]

One of the things I started working on is f throw to nana regrab, and up smash from her throw, into desync.

Kinda works, only problem is your timing is different every time you try and do it. The only time you are kinda sure how nana is going to throw them is when your next to and edge, she will always throw off the edge if she is close enough. But even then, you are not assured if she will start headbutts before she throws them. If your expecting her to down throw and she back throws youll most likely miss the up smash. and when you say into desync I assume your saying something like, Grab > Grab > Up smash > U air > U air > B air. That sequence works without the second grab, the most you will get from the second grab is two headbutts and a downthrow doing a grand total of 10 damage... and thats if your lucky, it will usually end up with 4-6 damage depending on which throw. I dont think its worth it for nana to do a regrab.

 

[pchoo]

Ice Climber's neutral air hits with the hammer. They do 2 rotations with the hammer, and the hitbox changes sides with the hammer, however its fast enough that you don't really notice. There's no hitbox around their head at all, so plan accordingly since you can get hit out of it at any place where there's not a hammer spinning.

Its kinda like an innertube of pain, but anything that's left outside is unprotected. >.>

 

[Wobbles]

'Sup Sean?

When you mentioned a jab de-sync, you might be thinking of the f-tilt guard. Wavedash into a forward tilt opposite the way you're facing, and if you time it right Nana jabs and you forward tilt. Then quickly input the command you want her to execute. It's very deceptive and hard to distinguish from a normal WD jab.

I know you've seen me do this, but up-throw f-smash is a great finisher.

Here's another de-sync that's kind of unknown and not that useful, but again; deception can be your best friend. You can de-sync out of a standing blizzard on the ground. The timing is pretty difficult, but if you succeed you can have Nana blizzard the way you are facing after blizzarding in place. Or Smash, or something.

Another useful de-syncing trick: I actually got this from a Chu vid and I don't know if he's shown it to you. You know that you can alternate smashes (pistoning) out of a de-sync, but after one or two pistons, have Nana start charging then advance. You can pull her charged smash with you, and it also screws up the opponent's timing on beating the technique.

You de-sync automatically when you hit the edge of a platform; Nana teeters and if you just walk off straight, she de-syncs (but she won't act until you've hit the ground, or forward+b with her). Useful with platform cancelled ice blocks, IMO; it's fast and hard to distinguish from normal platform play. You can also mix up this de-sync by simply wavelanding on platforms and then running off.

Wavelanding perfectly de-syncs you as well, but not in a good way.

One repetition of a dashdance also de-syncs you; depending on how you time and space it, you can have Nana do a move while you slide at the end of the dash, or you could dash farther away from her so she comes running towards you. This lets Popo act instead.

Another trick that is interesting to play with is using double direction smashes. Wavedash into an up or d-smash while holding opposite the way you face; this causes you and Nana to smash facing differently. In the case of up-smash, it keeps you safer by covering both your front and back simultaneously, and with d-smash it can mess up shield timing by changing the timing of the hits.

If you wavedash facing forward and hold backwards when you d-smash, Popo's d-smash hits behind him immediately, getting that hit out faster. If they shield, they have to contend with Nana's d-smash swinging around the front relatively later than normal. Sometimes it can make Nana's connect when they grab or jump from shield, and sometimes Popo's d-smash will connect faster than normal which gets you d-smashes in circumstances you might not have landed them. Remember though; the smashes become separated

Wavedashing while facing backwards and then turning forwards you can get the d-smash hits to connect simultaneously. This is less useful, I think.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Wavelanding perfectly de-syncs you as well, but not in a good way.

I'm not trying to argue(you're a WAAAAY better IC than I) but what do you mean? Are you referring to the fact that waveland separates the two? If I don't want them separated, I'll just waveland in place. That's just me though. Just tell me what you think. lol

 

[Buddha]

hot tips by wobbs as always.

but i think ppl are wasting their time trying to learn all these fancy-pants and mostly worthless desynchs. sure its fun in friendlies, but a simple dair chain, dthrow cg, or reverse dair cg are much more effective and safe. play to win and 4-stock. and ppl should focus more of their time on learning how to get the grab in the first place and character matchups. the only time i see some ridiculous desynch as a viable option is edgeguarding and the occassional "mindgamez" opportunity. and sure i use desynch blizzards all the time and whatnot and even a personal favorite of mine is empty SH > SHFFL desynch fair/nair > nana dsmash. its actually relatively safe on a opponent in a defensive position, such as near the ledge. but your game will improve exponentially once you stop trying to do "infinite possibilities" combos all day. (still an amazing vid btw)

but if u want to help forward, tell him to ask chu how to deal with a good peach or a good marth. i doubt he'll say "dthrow to utilt to fsmash to nanapult FTW yayuuhhhzz". oh and then tell us afterwards

tip: jab is your best friend.

 

[Reside]

If im reading that right speed then yea it works...but i dont really understand what your trying to get at. Why sould you waveland in place? wavedash in place maybe helps me to get nana less confused from a messed up dashdance. perfect wavelanding desyncs you because nana is 6 frames behind you and you have a much better wavelanding. If you are doing a perfect wavelanding in place it really doesnt change anything. Im just really confused why when you are doing a perfect waveland you would ever want to do it in place, wouldnt it be just as good not to do the waveland at all?

im sorry if i sound like im rambling on but i really dont understand your comment.

 

[forward]

Thanks Rob, those double direction smashes sound really useful, I'm going to be trying those out more.

Buddha: I strongly disagree with you on desyncs. I think one of the reasons chu's IC are so good is because he can control the desync so well. Yes, there are a lot of other things that make him good, but that doesn't mean you should over look the desync and rely on what's easy. The reason why something like desyncs are discussed so much is because the difficulty in using them, not just because they are flashy.

So this alternating wd smashes is called pistoning? LOL that reminds me of when i first heard the term pillaring >.> Anyways pistoning looks pretty good, but so does storing a charge smash with nana.

Which brings me to my next question. If nana is charging a forward smash, what attacks and approaches can I now use under the safety of her f smash? I notice that at times she is trailing behind, and her f smash may not even reach. How about I do a forward b with popo, then let nana release the f smash as it ends? That sounds like it might work. I need to test it

 

[Lixivium]

Buddha: I strongly disagree with you on desyncs. I think one of the reasons chu's IC are so good is because he can control the desync so well. Yes, there are a lot of other things that make him good, but that doesn't mean you should over look the desync and rely on what's easy. The reason why something like desyncs are discussed so much is because the difficulty in using them, not just because they are flashy.

I have to disagree. Desynching slows down your game, and it sacrifices power and control in exchange for variation. More importantly, there is a limit to the usefulness of desynching because in the end, you still control only one climber at a time. It's not always possible to cover up lag or follow up an attack with another climber's actions.

 

[Reside]

Yea, she will trail behind you. I like to just wd in and then wd back. When nana is as far forward as she can get (should be on your way back) release the smash and then wd in again. If she missed the smash or they sheild it, its usually quite easy to get a grab from there.

I dont think that solo squal option will work as well. using side-b as an approach is just a bad idea, instead wavedash > jab and release nana's smash at the same time if you wanna use that instead of what i first said.

Edit: I dissagree with you lixivium. Yes there is a limit to desyncs but are you suggesting limiting yourself even more by using few desyncs? And no they do not sacrifice power and control at all, instead it places you in control of the match. Desyncing to blizzard really hurts your enemy because if they get caught in it they are royally screwed, which limits there options of attack. Things like pistoning, I think is generally a waste of time if you do it just to do it. If it comes out in the middle of your game thats fine

 

[Wobbles]

The point to de-syncs is that you try to cancel out the rule that lag is punishable. One of your climbers does a move and controls space, but there would be lag afterwards. However, that lag is covered by another one capable still capable of acting.

When you're playing a 2v1 against somebody, one of the most basic strats is to have a point man and a punisher. Point man attacks and pressures the solo opponent; the punisher is there to cover for his whiffed attacks and to punish punishment. I miss an f-smash and you come in with an aerial, suddenly you get smashed AGAIN because my teammate was waiting for you to punish me.

De-syncing works in a similar fashion. I fire an iceblock when you're too close and you think I'm open; Nana blizzards and covers me. Or you can extend your range with Nana using an f-air or nanapult while you track their movements afterwards. They hit Nana, you WD in with a smash. That's de-syncing's strength, and that's why it's worth mastering.

Oh, and that wavelanding comment; you waveland too far away from Nana and she's de-synced and stuck chasing you. You can't control her at those times, and she becomes a liability rather than a teammate and weapon.

It's called pistoning because it makes a "thunk, thunk, thunk" sound repeatedly, like two pistons hitting down in rhythm. The point of pistoning isn't so much to hit the opponent as to create an expectation: he f-smashed 3 times, he'll do it again. So now they're trying to beat the timing you established, except that you can change it any time. Charging lets you drag the smashes along while remaining mobile; now the timing is different, its mobile, and its confusing. It's much more useful when it comes out in close range though; you lock your opponent down, and it can be a very vicious way to beat shieldgrabbing. This is actually fantastic after an f-tilt guard; you d-smash, Nana f-smashes; the d-smash pushing them away puts them at the tip of the f-smash, at which point you can back off a little and cover Nana if they go in for punishment.

 

[Buddha]

in the end youre just gonna have to find your own balance of livixium and forward's views on desynchs to incorporate in your own metagame. personally, i favor more toward's livixium's perspective on focusing more on individual matchups and limit my desynchs to only those that have been proved reliable and effective or doing them "on-the-spot" in more of an impromtu fashion.

i think the problem i have with all this desynch talk is that most of it is for "pre-setup" or "pre-determined" desynchs which i believe are VERY situational in actual gameplay. in actuality, one should learn how to control the desynched climbers individually and effectively when the opportunity arises. whether it be from your own setup (i.e. spot dodge, roll, etc.) or just in the heat of the battle. however, i strongly disagree with just throwing out these 2, 3, or 4-step desynchs like a script and hope they connect. its kind of like comboing with CF... ppl think its always some pre-scripted uair, uair, knee or nair, uair, knee like they had it pre-planned or something. but in reality its really uair, read DI, uair, read DI, knee. these things shouldnt be predetermined, rather you should just adapt and make wise decisions accordingly. my 2 cents... thoughts?


(p.s. about god**** time there was a useful thread in this room)

 

[Reside]

Hey buddha, thanks for the interesting comment.

I defiantly understand where your coming from on it, but that is the very reason there is so much "desynch talk", so people can use different things depending on the "VERY situational actual gameplay".

"i strongly disagree with just throwing out these 2, 3, or 4-step desynchs like a script and hope they connect. " of course, you have to be flexible. Every combo doesn't work on every character with every damage. You DO have to read DI and change your game accordingly. Lets say im doing Grab > Dthrow > upsmash > U air > U air > Bair combo. Obviously it they DI behind you before you can get even a single U air you just go right into the back air. Nobody continues a "script" and "hope it connects" after the enemy DI'ed away.

Most of the ""pre-setup" or "pre-determined"" deysnc talk is out of a grab, when you have a LOT of control over what is going on. the most "pre-determined" desync I do that isn't out of a grab would be if they fly into nana's desynced blizzard ill grab them out of it :/.

What im trying to get at is that I agree with you buddha, just when you actually are playing the game I think you are much more flexible then all of the talk on the forums. On the forum you have topics like "OoOoOoOOOoOoOOO i found teh 1337est IC combo desynch FTW WTF" (use the search, its actually there) And you see a combo that only sometimes works, you practice it once or twice on your own too understand it. do it once or twice in freindlys, and by then you should have a feeling of when it works and when it doesnt.

(p.s. about god**** time there was a useful thread in this room)

^Lol, yes^

 

[Shai Hulud]

the landing desync (the one i'm thinking of is empty sh ff and have popo sh again immediately after he lands while nana ends up staying on the ground because she was in landing animation) is really cool and hard to see coming, but i've yet to actually use it in a match

I use this desynch all the time but I don't have any videos of it.

 

[Shai Hulud]

'Sup Sean?

When you mentioned a jab de-sync, you might be thinking of the f-tilt guard. Wavedash into a forward tilt opposite the way you're facing, and if you time it right Nana jabs and you forward tilt. Then quickly input the command you want her to execute. It's very deceptive and hard to distinguish from a normal WD jab.

You don't have to wavedash into the ftilt desynch. All you do is ftilt opposite the way Popo is facing. You just press A a little faster than normal.

Though it is probably more useful to wavedash into this. I haven't seen anyone use this but me. Then again, there are so few Ice Climbers vids in existence...

Sorry for the double post...

Edit: In regards to uthrow=>Nana fsmash the only reason I could see for doing this is that it does a bit more damage than dthrow => Nana fsmash. I don't have any humans to try it on yet but it seems to work on cpus.

Another useful desynch that hasn't been mentioned is the dash/smash desynch. A correctly timed dash attack in the opposite direction Popo is facing will result in Popo doing a dash attack while Nana does an fsmash. Hold A to charge it. Against fast-fallers the dash attack can hit, popping them up for the charged fsmash.

 

[Lixivium]

Edit: In regards to uthrow=>Nana fsmash the only reason I could see for doing this is that it does a bit more damage than dthrow => Nana fsmash. I don't have any humans to try it on yet but it seems to work on cpus.

Up-throw -> F-smash smashes them in the opposite direction you're facing. That's the primary reason for using it (you grab them with your back near the edge).

Another useful desynch that hasn't been mentioned is the dash/smash desynch. A correctly timed dash attack in the opposite direction Popo is facing will result in Popo doing a dash attack while Nana does an fsmash. Hold A to charge it. Against fast-fallers the dash attack can hit, popping them up for the charged fsmash.

That's not a good reason for desynching.

If you manage to connect with a dash attack on a fastfaller, you can do a whole lot better than just a slightly charged F-smash that's not guaranteed to hit and has no followup:

1. (Up-tilt ->) Grab
2. Up-smash -> followup (at the right percentages)
3. Charge D-smash (much easier to land than a F-smash, hits twice)

All of these can be performed synched, so you don't risk losing control of either IC.

 

[Wobbles]

Also, up-throw f-smash sends them behind you, ruining the opponent's DI and landing earlier KOs. It creates a deadly guessing game for the opponent in that kind of situation.

WD f-tilt guard is deceptive because it looks a lot like WD jab. Doing it in place de-syncs you, but the opponent will know you are up to something; the point is to keep your de-syncing hidden and make them wonder what you're really planning.

 

[Kail]

With the Up throw F Smash does it work on everyone, and if so is it the same timing for every character?

 

[pockyD]

same timing for everyone

from what i've observed, uthrow and fthrow aren't weight-dependent; dthrow and bthrow are

 

[Buddha]

buddha approves highly of upthrow > fsmash. good ****.

but the timing is weird, at least for me. move the control stick up slowly so popo upthrows without nana jumping. then c-stick. i still can't get it down flawlessly tho.

...sixty percent of the time, it works every time.

 

[pockyD]

eh, it's really easy once you learn the timing (which is very forgiving)

it's the same up-ness as utilt, and the timing never changes

edit: IMO bthrow->bair is still better, especially since it comes out lightning quick on fox/falco (this one has diff timing for all chars though)

 

[Shai Hulud]

Up-throw -> F-smash smashes them in the opposite direction you're facing. That's the primary reason for using it (you grab them with your back near the edge).


That's not a good reason for desynching.

If you manage to connect with a dash attack on a fastfaller, you can do a whole lot better than just a slightly charged F-smash that's not guaranteed to hit and has no followup:

1. (Up-tilt ->) Grab
2. Up-smash -> followup (at the right percentages)
3. Charge D-smash (much easier to land than a F-smash, hits twice)

All of these can be performed synched, so you don't risk losing control of either IC.

No follow up? It's a ****ing fsmash. And the point of the desynch is to increase your chances of hitting. If the dash attack misses, the fsmash may still hit.

 

[Wobbles]

Oh no... I just lost an entire response that I typed out. Alas.

1: Up-throw f-smash is easier to do if you charge the f-smash. You won't need to be precise with hitting up, and you won't make Nana jump.

2: Charged f-smash is more powerful than a b-air, one would think...

3: Try charging a d-smash and then down-throwing a fastfaller. Purposely miss with the d-smash, and then regrab them. It's a ridiculous move, very silly, and not that useful, but it's one of the funniest things you can do to somebody.

 

[Reside]

the big difference between Backthrow-backair and smash-upthrow is i find the smash to hit them at a much higher trajectory then the back air, but i still do smash-upthrow.

 

[pockyD]

in my experience, bair generally produces a better trajectory when both are DI'd, and also its sheer quickness makes a lot of people miss the DI altogether (the same way uthrow rest works for jiggs; not quite that fast but almost)

 

[Buddha]

JUST USE BOTH. ggkthx.

4. fthrow > SH nanapult off the edge on FF or marios at low % can have devastating yet hilarious consequences. If you connect, it puts them in a susceptible position to edgeguarding by returning from below the stage. Warning: may cause extreme john-ness. And if you happen to connect with the belay-teleport while saving nana, be prepared to receive a chuck norris roundhouse kick to the juggular.