So as a community should we try and voice our concerns?

[Neoleo21]

Would this petition do?

http://www.change.org/petitions/nintendo-add-four-mechanical-changes-to-super-smash-brothers-for-wii-u

I agree with this thread.

- Dash dancing shouldn't have really been removed. It has good competitive applications and is certainly not a difficult move to pull off even for casuals.
- Reduced landing lag would speed the game up in general and allow for more combos and interesting setups. By doing it this way, everybody benefits, and players aren't faced with a competitive barrier in order to reap the reward (i,e: L-cancelling).
- Better follow-ups to grabs would also be appreciated.

Those are the three primary points I want to see in any petition or notice to Nintendo, and I fully support their inclusion.

 

[mimgrim]

I think dash dancing's psychological power is overstated greatly. When I play Melee, I like to just stand there not moving for a moment especially against opponents who input tons of stuff quickly since "do nothing" is IMO the strongest mindgame of them all; I'm giving you zero information about my future intentions since I'm not even doing anything in the present! When I see someone dash dancing, I mostly just treat them like they're standing still but rule out actions such as taking a small step forward and tilting since that's hard to do while dash dancing so they're really trading the ability to break out toward me slightly faster for the ability to use slower walking and spacing strats which I don't even see as a good trade for them. Against players who are unfamiliar with it, no doubt dash dancing can really spook them, but it's not much of a psychological weapon if the other side understands what it is.

http://zippy.gfycat.com/AngryDearBassethound.webm

I would say someone as good as Armada, who is considered as one of the Melee gods, should understand what Dash Dancing is very well. And he still got baited out by Mango and his fantastice Dash Dancing.

The reason Dash Dancing is better then standing still is because they are constantly moving while doing it. Dash Dancing in place is no different then standing, yes you would be correct on that. However that's a really bad Dash Dance, the thing with Dash Dancing is that you can move left or right while doing it and remain confusing and use it to bait out moves, like Mango did in the above example.

 

[Renji64]

Would this petition do?

http://www.change.org/petitions/nintendo-add-four-mechanical-changes-to-super-smash-brothers-for-wii-u

signed.

 

[Superyoshiom]

Speaking of concerns and voices...

Fox's voice. We have to fix this.

 

[RODO]

Would this petition do?

http://www.change.org/petitions/nintendo-add-four-mechanical-changes-to-super-smash-brothers-for-wii-u

I think taking to miiverse all at once would be a better idea. Nintendo would actually see it and others could join in too.

 

[Pazzo.]

I doubt that Miiverse would be the best place to do that.. but give it a shot. Who knoww what will happen.

Note though that Sakurai understands our concerns, and is trying to make this game competitivly valid. So don't sweat over the glitchy or wonky stuff in the demo, and enjoy the last few months ofthe hype period.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

http://zippy.gfycat.com/AngryDearBassethound.webm

I would say someone as good as Armada, who is considered as one of the Melee gods, should understand what Dash Dancing is very well. And he still got baited out by Mango and his fantastice Dash Dancing.

The reason Dash Dancing is better then standing still is because they are constantly moving while doing it. Dash Dancing in place is no different then standing, yes you would be correct on that. However that's a really bad Dash Dance, the thing with Dash Dancing is that you can move left or right while doing it and remain confusing and use it to bait out moves, like Mango did in the above example.

I have no desire for a long argument on this topic so I'll try to sumarize my position as it's relevant to smash 4 quickly. Smash 4 movement speed is just so fast. You hit a direction and you're in a full run super fast just barreling toward the opposition. Your characters control really tightly too, and I really doubt that a player of Mango's caliber couldn't still pull some great baits with this if not better than ever because it has that core high speed (in terms of pure run speeds, actually more than Melee) that is really more important than the visual trickery. In order to make dash dancing more practical (it probably still exists in smash 4 if you have crazy fast fingers, probably not practical), you'd have to slow down the start-up of it so there's time to input the dash dance. It would let you be trickier, but it could very easily have the practical effect of slowing down the true movement speed of the game which I think in the long run would be a bigger loss. That's why I don't think the suggestion makes a lot of sense; we keep saying we want more speed while asking for a mechanical change that would most intuitively imply less grounded movement speed. I hope how I'm looking at this makes sense.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Speaking of concerns and voices...

Fox's voice. We have to fix this.

Probably too late for that.

 

[Deleted member]

*looks at petition*

Because 100 signatures will convince the team to modify the engine of the game.

 

[EPsilon933]

What a game needs in order for offensive play to win is both mobility and a good ability to attack at the same time. If you have only 1 of them, all you can do is attacklessly run around or attack slowly almost in place. Sure there's more movement in Smash 4, but attacks have too much lag in the e3 build

 

[Pazzo.]

Probably too late for that.

*Please Note that Marth also had his Melee voice, and Bowser his Brawl Voice.*

 

[Chibi-Chan]

^^^^^ Some characters have a faster initial dash than full dash. That's why Foxtrotting is a thing, Obviously dash-dancing with this feature is the absolute fastest option the character has for movement.

 

[JediLink]

It would let you be trickier, but it could very easily have the practical effect of slowing down the true movement speed of the game which I think in the long run would be a bigger loss.

...Except for the fact that it wouldn't.

 

[JV5Chris]

Smash 4 movement speed is just so fast. You hit a direction and you're in a full run super fast just barreling toward the opposition.

If the window for changing directions is similar to Brawl, the running movement in Smash 4 has to feel notably more unwieldy.

 

[<π]

I know no one is going to care.... But I'm going to voice my opinion on this one. First about me, I'm a old smash soul been playing the game competitively in some of the most competitive highest ranked area's on the west coast... And I was pretty good too. I understand what makes these tactics good believe me, but also the trade offs for them.

Most great game designers I follow (especially competitive ones) all seem to believe in sacrificing one advantage for another as well as creating situations where one player feels powerless if very bad. I believe Mr. Sakurai echo's that ideology, you can see that evolution come out in the smash games.

Dash Dancing: (and couch canceling)
Dash dancing is cool it give the player doing it a feeling of freedom, and increased agility. I have a few issues with it though, and please I beg you to read them before you actually dismiss them.
1. If you make no commitment when you dash then why have any other form of ground movement? Let that sink in. If you can instantly change direction, and cancel you run animation at any time by crouching when what is a walk animation but a bad version of your run?
Removing dash dancing makes a dash a commitment you make because while you gain something like a positional advantage, access to a new move (dash attack/ running up smash) dash shield, advancing short hop or full hop, etc. you also lose some options in exchange. Just like when you jump how you lose access to grounded moves in exchange for aerials. or when you double jump you lose options. Losing options when you choose others adds depth to the game.
2. I've always felt like it makes the game easier to balance. All of the bad characters in brawl are characters with poor ground mobility (read as bad dashes and bad wave dashes... oh and bad combos) limiting how quickly and accurately a character can do things on the ground makes it much easier to balance ranges of ground moves. So now as a creator you can make windows of space where people can't hit with certain ground moves quickly and accurately. That means you can reward good spacing and good reads better because its harder to do. So a character with amazing high speed/high knock back normals and high ground speed can have a large opening dash so that his amazing ground game isn't a threat any where on the stage. (I suspect thats why all of falcon's grounded kill moves were all so low on start up)
3. So it lets the opponent know judge what can and can't happen better. Which believe it or not is a good thing. It widens that door so more casuals can say... man I get this but I wanna get better. instead of man... this is stupid... I don't wanna play anymore.

L-canceling
1. If there is L-canceling the game will be balanced around it, not around moves before L-canceling. (To have a balanced game and L-cancels) you have to lower shield stun on every aerial that makes use of it. It makes you feel faster but doesn't make you faster in a way that matters. Or imagine the moves taking twice as long to finish.
2. it lets you have a much wider range of aerials in the game. those that can poke, or start/continue combos, or high risk big damage moves, or aerial zoning but too powerful to be a ground move.
3. It divides casuals players who do it "for fun" from those who play "for glory". It puts up a gate to competitive play where they doesn't need to be one. Turning casual players into hardcore players as soon as possible should always be the goal, thats how a community grows.

Wavedashing
Its neat and all but... again it is too powerful in that it offers every option with no commitment. It turns the shield from something pretty easy to balance per character into something that is a nightmare (unless you are yoshi)

Far Blast zones.
Lol, what? Is this a real issue? jump out there and kill them! Thats where the fun is!!

Offensive play is cool!
I agree what isn't cool are situations where one player is at some extreme disadvantage, I think after smash 64 (where if you shield you shield broke) sakurai tried to really make defensive options better. in melee you have light shielding, better grabs, spot dodge better out of shield options. Even yoshi can light sheild and get out of tough spots with his unreal low traction. still though in this game a player on the defensive is a very powerless player. So in brawl defensive players get a buff in a few ways, less shield drop frames, even better out of shield options, even bigger grab ranges! and add landing lag on quite a few moves. Now defensive players have a chance! Did he go over board? maybe... but I don't think Mr. Sakurai is a man who isn't responding to the flaws )as he sees them mind you) of his previous works.
Just like how being forced in your shield and unable to act isn't fun, similarly being forced to sheild out of fear of retaliation isn't either. Trust; Sakurai knows this.

 

[EPsilon933]

Dash Dancing: (and couch canceling)
Dash dancing is cool it give the player doing it a feeling of freedom, and increased agility. I have a few issues with it though, and please I beg you to read them before you actually dismiss them.
1. If you make no commitment when you dash then why have any other form of ground movement? Let that sink in. If you can instantly change direction, and cancel you run animation at any time by crouching when what is a walk animation but a bad version of your run?
Removing dash dancing makes a dash a commitment you make because while you gain something like a positional advantage, access to a new move (dash attack/ running up smash) dash shield, advancing short hop or full hop, etc. you also lose some options in exchange. Just like when you jump how you lose access to grounded moves in exchange for aerials. or when you double jump you lose options. Losing options when you choose others adds depth to the game.

When you dash, you can't immediately cancel into a standing move like a jab or tilt. You have to cancel it with with a crouch to do those other moves. It makes a spacing game of where-exactly-will-they-be-when-I-approach. They could be close or far and you'll have to guess well to approach well. Attacking immediately out of it would primarily work for aerials and dash attacks

L-canceling
3. It divides casuals players who do it "for fun" from those who play "for glory". It puts up a gate to competitive play where they doesn't need to be one. Turning casual players into hardcore players as soon as possible should always be the goal, thats how a community grows.

The problem with casuals and competitive gamers is that they can be very divided and can make an us vs them mentality. When both communities are playing the same thing, the barrier gets removed. There's a lot of hate between the 2 in Smash games because there are a lot of changes in the game going from casual to tournament. With games like LOL, both communities are playing with the same rules and there's much less hate between the 2 sides

Wavedashing
Its neat and all but... again it is too powerful in that it offers every option with no commitment. It turns the shield from something pretty easy to balance per character into something that is a nightmare (unless you are yoshi)

It costs 10 frames of land fall special lag + 4-9 frames used for jumping before that landing lag. It's not a completely free move to do. It opens up grounded options for characters

Offensive play is cool!
I agree what isn't cool are situations where one player is at some extreme disadvantage, I think after smash 64 (where if you shield you shield broke) sakurai tried to really make defensive options better. in melee you have light shielding, better grabs, spot dodge better out of shield options. Even yoshi can light sheild and get out of tough spots with his unreal low traction. still though in this game a player on the defensive is a very powerless player. So in brawl defensive players get a buff in a few ways, less shield drop frames, even better out of shield options, even bigger grab ranges! and add landing lag on quite a few moves. Now defensive players have a chance! Did he go over board? maybe... but I don't think Mr. Sakurai is a man who isn't responding to the flaws )as he sees them mind you) of his previous works.
Just like how being forced in your shield and unable to act isn't fun, similarly being forced to sheild out of fear of retaliation isn't either. Trust; Sakurai knows this.

Didn't Melee have a really good balance between aggro and campy play?

 

[<π]

When you dash, you can't immediately cancel into a standing move like a jab or tilt. You have to cancel it with with a crouch to do those other moves. It makes a spacing game of where-exactly-will-they-be-when-I-approach. They could be close or far and you'll have to guess well to approach well. Attacking immediately out of it would primarily work for aerials and dash attacks

You can do any attack out of the pivoit in a dash dance.

The problem with casuals and competitive gamers is that they can be very divided and can make an us vs them mentality. When both communities are playing the same thing, the barrier gets removed. There's a lot of hate between the 2 in Smash games because there are a lot of changes in the game going from casual to tournament. With games like LOL, both communities are playing with the same rules and there's much less hate between the 2 sides

It costs 10 frames of land fall special lag + 4-9 frames used for jumping before that landing lag. It's not a completely free move to do. It opens up grounded options for characters

I'm very confident there is not special land fall lag on air dodging.

Didn't Melee have a really good balance between aggro and campy play?

I don't believe it did. Fox, falco, sheik peach all murder people in shields to the point where your only viable option is to roll and hope they don't guess the direction. I played samus who hard one of the best defensive options in the game (invincible upB OOS) and once i got my sheild up even I couldn't handle the amazing shield pressure these characters can put out.

Here are two of the top five duking it out, watch what the shield game is like.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VwGAk_hbFc

 

[Sane.]

I'm 100% in favor of attempting to make our voices heard. Smashboards.com is a huge community that very much deserves at least some of Sakurai's attention.

I would love to see...

1. Reduced landing lag (from what it currently is, having a good SH game should not be a penalty)
2. Follow up options for grabs
3. Increased hitstun on attacks to allow combo potential. Learning which moves link together in what situations against which characters at which percentages is what makes fighting games fun. Less learning experience = less replay value.

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

Would this petition do?

http://www.change.org/petitions/nintendo-add-four-mechanical-changes-to-super-smash-brothers-for-wii-u

No, petitions aren't exactly what I was going for. I think that if we're going to voice our concerns they should be unanimous in agreement on what should be changed, but it doesn't have to be contained in just a petition. Multiple sources could be used as outlets for feedback - it just needs to be consistent.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm 100% in favor of attempting to make our voices heard. Smashboards.com is a huge community that very much deserves at least some of Sakurai's attention.

I would love to see...

1. Reduced landing lag (from what it currently is, having a good SH game should not be a penalty)
2. Follow up options for grabs
3. Increased hitstun on attacks to allow combo potential. Learning which moves link together in what situations against which characters at which percentages is what makes fighting games fun. Less learning experience = less replay value.

Huge? Eh... Not to rain on the show, but Smashboards barely makes up a % of Brawl's US sales and there's plenty of people here who simply don't care about these changes happening.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

*cracks knuckles*

Time for some casual-ish (or whatever the hell I'm now considered, I've stopped caring) opinion on this whole thing.

First off all, I find it incredibly arrogant to assume that Sakurai falsely assumes anything. This is his creation. If he decides to turn this into a full on fighting game with Health bars, specials, ect on a flat plain with walls, then he can do it. Might not sell any copies, but it's his creation, his rules.

But let's ignore that for now. I like having suggestions just like anyone.

1.) Reduce landing lag. Honestly, I have no issue with this. And yes, even a (casual/semi-casual/n00b/beginner(pick one)) can tell the difference with reduced landing lag. I (surprinsingly) do enjoy a brisk pace. Just no psychotically insane Melee speeds, please.

2.) Reduced blast box. Yeah, after watching the videos a few times, I noticed that even in comparison with Brawl, the borders for destruction were...um...off. High. Wide. I love longer games, but killing people is a little too difficult with that kind of wide open space.

3.) Slightly increased hitstun. I say slightly, because I've played games were combos were king. I hate them with a furious passion and nothing sucks more than getting combo-ed to the point where you might as well put the controller down. I know, I'll be told to DI, or even SDI, which leads me into my 4th suggestion.

4.) Do not change the SDI in this. Like a poster above explained, there are many multi-hitting moves you make utterly worthless or garbage with that. Link's Fsmash has been notoriously sub-par until apparently Sm4sh came about, and with the lack of SDI and the lower knockback from the first hit, I can finally get that second, damaging, super sweet second strike off. That's just one example.

5.) Lower lag on down throws. It can't be too hard to code in something to prevent chaingrabs, is it? Or is it a crime to prevent players from grabbing again with a short period of time? All I know is, I love doing fun stuff off of down throws.

I'll get off my soapbox now and get back to lurking moar.

 

[MechaWave]

If you're really going to bother with this, avoid petitions. They really don't work, and Reggie seems to have stressed this. Go bombard their Twitter and Facebook accounts and post in the Smash Bros. community or something.

 

[RODO]

The thing with SDI though is that if you factor in moves such as PK Fire without any SDI to escape them they will become way too good.

 

[Nintymat]

"From questions from the chat, prog stated that Nintendo reps did take some feedback from them at E3 and they are interested in what we have to say. Prog even believes they will take our feedback to heart and try to relay it to the dev team/Sakurai. To be more precise, they had sent Nintendo reps e-mails about their feedback. This we will obviously have to see if it will happen but yeah, basically, prog is confident of this to some extent"

Source: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/283ctt/summary_from_progs_stream/

I think they are fully aware of our concerns. It's up to them if they want to act on it. Calm yo ****.

 

[ChikoLad]

Considering how Nintendo joked about Mother 3/Star Fox demands in the Robot Chicken skit, how they joked about "ooooh another Mario game", they completely capitalised on the appeal of Iwata and Reggie by having them duke it out like anime characters, and how they managed to fit in the Luigi Death Stare (which only existed since like, two weeks prior to the Digital Event), and how they held the Invitational at all...

...I think it's safe to say some of Nintendo's market research guys are probably stalking us as we speak!

 

[EPsilon933]

I forgot to specify I was talking about Melee's techs, in case not mentioning that might have brought any confusion

You can do any attack out of the pivoit in a dash dance.

But it's not very practically easy to do

I'm very confident there is not special land fall lag on air dodging.

There is in Melee

I don't believe it did. Fox, falco, sheik peach all murder people in shields to the point where your only viable option is to roll and hope they don't guess the direction. I played samus who hard one of the best defensive options in the game (invincible upB OOS) and once i got my shield up even I couldn't handle the amazing shield pressure these characters can put out.

Here are two of the top five duking it out, watch what the shield game is like.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VwGAk_hbFc

You're only looking at offense/defense based on the shield game. Part of the shield game in Melee is choosing when to stay and shield vs when to get out. You can not expect to get out any time you want. That would favor defense options too heavily. And there's also (good) nairs out of shield. Peach doesn't get shield pressured very easily. There is a lot of camping in the neutral game. It's not a good idea to approach the opponent from any distance that takes more than .25-.5 seconds to reach (from a competitive standpoint). For Fox and Falco, that distance is very far because they can safely hit their opponents from father away (nairs and lasers)

Peach has very good shield pressure only if she gets a float going. It takes time to set it up. She has limited mobility when doing it and can't chase an opponent well when she does it. All the opponent has to do is avoid her. Much less ability to play aggressively

I watched that video you linked and only 2/3 of the time did the shield pressurer have the advantage. In 2 of those games, Mew2King went Marth, a character who has perhaps the 2nd worst out of the shield game and Dr Pepee players Falco, 1 of the 3 best shield pressurers in the game. Some of those shield pressures were well spaced pokes, which were safe hits that ended in an almost neutral game. The goal when you're in shield is to return to a neutral game or an advantage and a lot of the time, the shielder returned to a neutral game

 

[LancerStaff]

The thing with SDI though is that if you factor in moves such as PK Fire without any SDI to escape them they will become way too good.

I'd say one move being too good is a fair trade-off for many other moves being buffed. And what's stopping a PK fire nerf? Bowser even has his ol' stiff neck from Melee again, so it'll be easier to escape.

 

[<π]

I forgot to specify I was talking about Melee's techs, in case not mentioning that might have brought any confusion

I understand, and don't get me wrong I feel like every smash game could be better, I'm sure this new one will have its own share of ideas I don't agree with too.

But it's not very practically easy to do

That is irrelevant if it is possible. Every competitive marth knows how to do this. I did it with samus and her ground speed was terrible.

There is in Melee

I looked it up and you are absolutely correct.

You're only looking at offense/defense based on the shield game. Part of the shield game in Melee is choosing when to stay and shield vs when to get out. You can not expect to get out any time you want. That would favor defense options too heavily. And there's also (good) nairs out of shield. Peach doesn't get shield pressured very easily. There is a lot of camping in the neutral game. It's not a good idea to approach the opponent from any distance that takes more than .25-.5 seconds to reach (from a competitive standpoint). For Fox and Falco, that distance is very far because they can safely hit their opponents from father away (nairs and lasers)

Peach has very good shield pressure only if she gets a float going. It takes time to set it up. She has limited mobility when doing it and can't chase an opponent well when she does it. All the opponent has to do is avoid her. Much less ability to play aggressively

I watched that video you linked and only 2/3 of the time did the shield pressurer have the advantage. In 2 of those games, Mew2King went Marth, a character who has perhaps the 2nd worst out of the shield game and Dr Pepee players Falco, 1 of the 3 best shield pressurers in the game. Some of those shield pressures were well spaced pokes, which were safe hits that ended in an almost neutral game. The goal when you're in shield is to return to a neutral game or an advantage and a lot of the time, the shielder returned to a neutral game

The best defense in melee is to never enter a position where you need to be on the defensive. In melee shielding is a bad position.

 

[EPsilon933]

The best defense in melee is to never enter a position where you need to be on the defensive. In melee shielding is a bad position.

Isn't shielding always kind of bad? It limits your options and keeps you stationary. How can that ever be a good thing? The best defenses in Melee are walls of high priority attacks and dash dancing. Camping works in that game. Do you think Melee is Fox and Falco only?

 

[<π]

melee IS mostly fox and falco... it was when I played and it still is now. Ironically fox and falco are two of the best campers in the game.

Shielding DOES have its weakness, it DOES limit your options and I like that. I think every choice you make should severely limit your options; that's what makes choices engaging and meaningful. My issue is that in melee it limits you to the point where you are powerless, every option available is a bad one, its not even a chance or a risk once you shield every option is bad, bar a few characters. Most moves are safe on shield in that game so you can do what ever you want once you get in on someone and not be punished if you are playing optimally.

In most games blocking generally returns you to neutral, in melee it puts you into a negative state. Does that mean its bad? No, not by any means. My issue is that it punishes players for doing what they are expected to do when they can't evade an attack.

I point to brawl as an example of a strong shield. Most attack are not safe on shield, there are tons of powerful out of shield options in Upsmashes and UpBs for a lot of the cast. Shield grab is a very powerful defensive tool. once someone commits to an aerial (or a short hop in some situations) you can dash into them with a shield as a way to punish THEIR commitment. In brawl it limits your mobility options and keeps you stationary, but that's a trade off for something else.
And that's not to say its a perfect example by any means I'm just using it as a counter argument of what a strong shield looks like.

 

[Calibrate]

Yes! We should REALLY voice our concerns.

A real life march or something would be totally awesome. So just organize one! Go! Now!

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

What concerns exactly?

 

[staindgrey]

What concerns exactly?

My thought is, if we were to actually voice any concerns, they should be concerns that could realistically be addressed before launch.

Only one on my list would be the lack of any platforms in For Glory mode. Having NOTHING but a Final Destination layout will give certain characters permanent advantages or disadvantages. I feel like adding a few platforms to a few stage variations wouldn't require much at all.

 

[EPsilon933]

melee IS mostly fox and falco... it was when I played and it still is now. Ironically fox and falco are two of the best campers in the game.

What? What? What? WWWHHHAAATTT???

My issue is that in melee it limits you to the point where you are powerless, every option available is a bad one, its not even a chance or a risk once you shield every option is bad, bar a few characters. Most moves are safe on shield in that game so you can do what ever you want once you get in on someone and not be punished if you are playing optimally.

Are you exaggerating super hard or do you not play this game at tournaments?

In most games blocking generally returns you to neutral, in melee it puts you into a negative state. Does that mean its bad? No, not by any means. My issue is that it punishes players for doing what they are expected to do when they can't evade an attack.

There are plenty of opportunities to return the game to neutral. You just need to make the correct predictions of how to escape just like everything else about fighting games, making the right choices

I point to brawl as an example of a strong shield. Most attack are not safe on shield, there are tons of powerful out of shield options in Upsmashes and UpBs for a lot of the cast. Shield grab is a very powerful defensive tool. once someone commits to an aerial (or a short hop in some situations) you can dash into them with a shield as a way to punish THEIR commitment. In brawl it limits your mobility options and keeps you stationary, but that's a trade off for something else.
And that's not to say its a perfect example by any means I'm just using it as a counter argument of what a strong shield looks like.

You just described an overly powerful shield. Brawl shield stun is 1/3 of what it is in Melee. Almost all attacks are unsafe on it. The input buffer makes it easy to time inputs frame perfectly out of shield. It's too good

 

[<π]

What? What? What? WWWHHHAAATTT???

http://smashboards.com/rankings/melee/league/teams
Fox is the most played character in the game.

Fox and falco have the best projectiles in the game, arguably the best shield pressure and great mobility.

Are you exaggerating super hard or do you not play this game at tournaments?

Honestly I don't play any more. When I did though I played at least monthly with ColBo and the other CFL kids. In 2007 I was in CT playing with PC Chris, Cort, and Milktea weekly. PC compared my samus to DA Wes' when I did play I knew what I was doing. Though that's all irrelevant.
Shielding is a very very weak option in melee, I feel like it should be stronger, rewarding its intelligent use and still be punished for using it poorly or baiting it out when it shouldn't have been used. In melee if you've been forced to sheild you've been force in to a disadvantageous position. That's really been my only point. Is that good or bad? its opinionary.

There are plenty of opportunities to return the game to neutral. You just need to make the correct predictions of how to escape just like everything else about fighting games, making the right choices

That's true but the odds are greatly stacked against them.

You just described an overly powerful shield. Brawl shield stun is 1/3 of what it is in Melee. Almost all attacks are unsafe on it. The input buffer makes it easy to time inputs frame perfectly out of shield. It's too good

I know, and I said that. I played brawl competitively for years as well, at one point I was considered one of if not the best sheik in the US... for whatever that is worth. In Brawl you have to respect shields that's where the power is in this game. I definitely agree. Is that good or bad? Its opinionary.

 

[EPsilon933]

http://smashboards.com/rankings/melee/league/teams
Fox is the most played character in the game.

Count up the numbers. Fox + Falco != mostly Melee

Fox and falco have the best projectiles in the game, arguably the best shield pressure and great mobility.

Fox has the best projectile in the game? You can't be serious. Falco's mobility isn't very good. Vertically, yes, but not enough horizontally to make it "great". This doesn't show that they have the best camping games

Honestly I don't play any more. When I did though I played at least monthly with ColBo and the other CFL kids. In 2007 I was in CT playing with PC Chris, Cort, and Milktea weekly. PC compared my samus to DA Wes' when I did play I knew what I was doing. Though that's all irrelevant.

Maybe the metagame was different back then

Shielding is a very very weak option in melee, I feel like it should be stronger, rewarding its intelligent use and still be punished for using it poorly or baiting it out when it shouldn't have been used. In melee if you've been forced to sheild you've been force in to a disadvantageous position. That's really been my only point. Is that good or bad? its opinionary.

2 "very"s. That's a lot. It is a disadvantage to block, but you're not hopelessly choosing poisons. You have SOME escape options, enough to balance between the attacker and defender

That's true but the odds are greatly stacked against them.

"Greatly". Now that's another overstatement

I know, and I said that. I played brawl competitively for years as well, at one point I was considered one of if not the best sheik in the US... for whatever that is worth. In Brawl you have to respect shields that's where the power is in this game. I definitely agree. Is that good or bad? Its opinionary.

It certainly discourages approaching

 

[<π]

Bar the fox/falco best camper thing I agree with everything you said.

 

[RODO]

I just want people to know that the purpose of this isn't to make the game more like Melee but instead to make it viable for esports (make it fun to play AND watch). It doesn't necessarily have to have Melee mechanics, and most of what is being said isn't even Melee exclusive. I came from Brawl, and I loved playing it, but it had it's problems along with every other smash game. If we can take some of the better aspects of smash and get them into Smash 4 then I think it will benefit everyone.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I just want people to know that the purpose of this isn't to make the game more like Melee but instead to make it viable for esports (make it fun to play AND watch). It doesn't necessarily have to have Melee mechanics, and most of what is being said isn't even Melee exclusive. I came from Brawl, and I loved playing it, but it had it's problems along with every other smash game. If we can take some of the better aspects of smash and get them into Smash 4 then I think it will benefit everyone.

To be fair, 'fun to watch' is a very objective view. I personally think that neither Brawl nor Melee are fun to watch. Brawl is too floaty and Melee is too fast and jerky. I personally enjoy watching professional BlazBlue or P4Arena fighers, honestly. Smash is a game I'd rather play than watch, in all honesty.

 

[Knight Dude]

I think it is important to get our voices out there. It might not seem like it, but it can matter and it does have an effect on the products(not just games)we buy and use. I can't say much in terms of competitive play, but for those that can, it's better to speak up.

I'm impressed with how Smash 4 is looking right now. Both in gameplay and visual aspects. But I wouldn't mind seeing the game speed being a little faster. I heard that landing lag was an issue that others had with the amount of time they had with the game, though it's not the final build. It'd still be cool to address this as soon as possible.