Snake's Tier List Placing?

[deadjames]

I see what you mean. But its just interesting to know that a snake player can whoop a character on the top of the tier list seeing as everybody underestimates him. Everyone has their own opinion of certain characters because they have had different experiences and different opponents. I don't really have any zss experience because i am actually the one in my group that plays her, and i am the one to play snake. I cant fight myself lol. But imo i think zss has the upper hand speed wise, obviously snake has the means of keeping her at a distance but zss is quick and acrobatic. If you know how to use her then you can evade nikitas and grenades. Her A combo is much faster than snakes. Her grab is quick and has more range, and when it comes to mines that are planted she can blow them up easily by shooting them. Also snakes recovory as i would imagine would suck against zss because of her up b which sends you straight down. Her recovery isnt much to brag about but in certain situations its useful and others its stressful. I give snake the upper because of his projectiles but zss the upper hand because of her speed. That seems to be one of my snakes weaknesses. Fast characters. I forgot to add that snake is at times.... rediculous to kill. Does zss really have any attacks that can take snake out for good?

ZSS's grab is anything but quick, she has pretty much the worst grab in the game, it may have range, but the end-lag is ridiculous if you whiff, also her recovery is much better than Snake's she has a tether recovery, which makes her virtually impossible to edge-guard. I have very little experience fighting Snake, but I do play ZSS and personally, I think the MU is in Snake's favor, neither of them have a good approach and Snake can zone her out and out-camp her, not to mention if Snake is able to set up traps and establish stage control it doesn't seem like there's much she can do to deal with that.

 

[Fortress]

she has a tether recovery, which makes her virtually impossible to edge-guard.

If anything, this makes her recovery even more predictable and punishable. As a Link main, tethering to the ledge is a dangerous option if not followed up with the right mixups and defenses, as you can just be stomped right out of it. Same goes for Ivysaur and ZSS. In fact, ZSS and Ivy have it rougher than Link with tether recoveries since they can't do the kind of mixups Link can at the ledge (at least, not as easily in Ivy's case, or at all In ZSS's that I'm aware of).

I guess Snake doesn't have too much to thwart tethers since his off-stage play is sort of lacking, but Ganondorf's Dair was made to stop tethers. Double for Wario.

 

[deadjames]

If anything, this makes her recovery even more predictable and punishable. As a Link main, tethering to the ledge is a dangerous option if not followed up with the right mixups and defenses, as you can just be stomped right out of it. Same goes for Ivysaur and ZSS. In fact, ZSS and Ivy have it rougher than Link with tether recoveries since they can't do the kind of mixups Link can at the ledge (at least, not as easily in Ivy's case, or at all In ZSS's that I'm aware of).

I guess Snake doesn't have too much to thwart tethers since his off-stage play is sort of lacking, but Ganondorf's Dair was made to stop tethers. Double for Wario.

I don't know I play against a Ganon main all the time, and I'm usually able to reel myself in before he has time to spike me, also ZSS and Ivy both have ways to mix up their recovery, you can use ZSS's down-b as a mixup and you can tether with side-b or up-b, and you can use Ivy's dair to stall as well as a ledgedrop razor leaf, personally I think they both have it way better than Link, his only options are airdodge and up-b.

Edit: Also Wario's dair isn't really a good offstage option, if you miss then you're dead.

 

[Fortress]

But who misses with that? Sonic's coming up, Wario's going down, and it's all gravy.

As for Ivy stalls and ZSS's down+B recovery, I tend not to do that as either of them. More hangtime for Ivy, and I **** up the timing way too much with ZSS to get the most out of the down+B. I feel like there's an insane amount of time that you have to wait to act out of that.

 

[WizKid911]

James i know it has lag at the end. I mean from what i remember it comes out pretty quick. And the extra reach helps

 

[deadjames]

But who misses with that? Sonic's coming up, Wario's going down, and it's all gravy.

As for Ivy stalls and ZSS's down+B recovery, I tend not to do that as either of them. More hangtime for Ivy, and I **** up the timing way too much with ZSS to get the most out of the down+B. I feel like there's an insane amount of time that you have to wait to act out of that.

I don't know man, I've played Strong Bad's Wario and the only time he hit an offstage dair against me was when I went Bowser. Incidentally, Sonic was the character I came closest to beating him with.

 

[Fortress]

I feel like the more predictable the recovery, the better Wario's Dair is, to be honest. DK, Bowser, Ganondorf, tethers, and Sonic I feel are easier, since they get one direction of recovery, and ones like Mario would be tougher to take out since they're moving a bunch. Well, maybe not DK then.

 

[deadjames]

I feel like the more predictable the recovery, the better Wario's Dair is, to be honest. DK, Bowser, Ganondorf, tethers, and Sonic I feel are easier, since they get one direction of recovery, and ones like Mario would be tougher to take out since they're moving a bunch. Well, maybe not DK then.

I still feel like it's not a good option, it's only really good for style points if you have the stock lead.

 

[WizKid911]

As far as i know zss and ivy cant get hit once they latch on. I have tried multiple times to hit them out of it. I thought they were invulnerable. I mean i know you can hit them before but not the actual point of grabbing the stage. They even flash like you do when you dodge. And if you can get warios d air off and kill multiple times without screwing yourself then i would love to see that

 

[Professor Pro]

I'm really confused when anyone says 'Snake can just outcamp *insert any character*'
Snake's camp game is atrocious, what can he camp with EFFECTIVELY (<<< keyword)???

Grenades might force you into shield and the same with Nikita so they are good at creating defensive situations, but the best attribute about having an effective camp game is being able to build on percent, Snake can't do that effectively

As for Snake not being able to do anything against ZSS's recovery because of her tether is wrong, Ivy is harder to edgeguard because her reel-in once she grabs the ledge is dumb and she instantly reels in, but ZSS's reel-in doesn't instantly grab the ledge and you can visually see her going upwards and you can throw out a Fair or Dair to punish her during and prior that time.
So yes, Snake can edgeguard ZSS quite effectively

 

[Fortress]

Pretty much spot on. Ganondorf can put the boots to ZSS's face during her tether, ditto Wario with his Dair, so I don't get why Wario's Dair being effective in that is so unheard of. Anyway, I've never seen Snake camp and play a good game. He doesn't do well enough from far away to capitalize on locking himself down with mines and C4 (as they don't move, and he can't, you know, throw them), and he doesn't really combo and finish well without them. He's got to do this weird mix of zoning and chasing, as far as I can tell.

I don't play Snake at all, but that's really the only way I can describe it from what I've seen. Prof. Pro knows way more than I do.

 

[Professor Pro]

Pretty much spot on. Ganondorf can put the boots to ZSS's face during her tether, ditto Wario with his Dair, so I don't get why Wario's Dair being effective in that is so unheard of. Anyway, I've never seen Snake camp and play a good game. He doesn't do well enough from far away to capitalize on locking himself down with mines and C4 (as they don't move, and he can't, you know, throw them), and he doesn't really combo and finish well without them. He's got to do this weird mix of zoning and chasing, as far as I can tell.

I don't play Snake at all, but that's really the only way I can describe it from what I've seen. Prof. Pro knows way more than I do.

'He's got to do this weird mix of zoning and chasing' This is pretty much spot on.

Snake actually needs to approach and is reliant on C4 kills which you need to approach to earn, but he has a bad approach game so you can't really rush effectively with him, but it's equalled out by his massive (when played effectively) punish game.

 

[Fortress]

When I say "weird zoning", I mean this kind of 'static' zoning. One where his hitboxes are far away from Snake himself, but don't move or actively do anything, and rely on Snake to throw the opponent into. It's like... anti-zoning or something. Snake deals with pressure pretty poorly, his power options on the ground not exactly ideal when being rushed down, and things just get worse for him defensively in the air. Which is why he's not at the tippity-top of most tier lists, but that's a good thing; it's just compensation for his excellent arms thighs gluts mullet strengths.

 

[WizKid911]

Well if you guys are saying that you can hit zss out of the tether then i will take your word from it. As i said earlier i am the only one that plays her out of my group and i have never been hit out of it. I always instantly reel myself up. And thank you fortress and professor. I cant remember who said that to play snake effectively you haveto be defensive but thats just not me.

 

[Fortress]

Snake can play defensively?

 

[WizKid911]

They were making it sound like he shouldn't be played offensively. Like he should only be played defensively. Im not saying that its not possible. I just think it would be boring

 

[GeZ]

They were making it sound like he shouldn't be played offensively. Like he should only be played defensively. Im not saying that its not possible. I just think it would be boring

I think he plays neutrally really. In my experience with the character, I'm most comfortable putting my opponent in uncomfortable situations (c4, mine, hand on leg) and then pressuring them to make poor decisions.

Like, you've got c4 here, a Mine there, Grenade is arcing towards them, and Snake is in a position of great power, if you've arranged your tools well. You're free to,
a) push into their face and pressure their shield while threatening with grabs or hits that could land them in one of your mines/ c4
b) wait for them to try to deal with these things (approach in some way) and use the existence of your tools to give yourself an advantage, like they're forced to jump over a Mine so you've got the advantage on the ground, and their options are limited by virtue of being in the air, so you can threaten to boot them back to your ground, or wait on the ground knowing they're working with a limited tool set to approach, and punishing based on what you can do to anticipate their options
c) see that they're too involved in thinking about combating the aforementioned options and are either staying away to preclude the whole situation, which lets you pelt them at range until they realize their solution solved nothing, or devoting too much thought to overcoming your setup, leaving them distracted and open to any kind well thought out combat

In all situations the opponent is LIMITED in their ability to deal with you and have to use a hamstringed set of tools rather than their full repertoire. In that sense I feel Snake is one of the best characters at what he does, because he can set up static situations that limit options until they are overcome, while other characters can only put the opponent in very brief instances of limited options.

 

[WizKid911]

Tis true. Thats how i play him pretty much. I couldnt have said it better myself