• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Snake's Tier List Placing?

GeZ

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
1,763
Location
The Speed Force
Damn, you didn't need to go with the nuclear option on that one.
I'm just sick of this guys Prometheus-esque boner for himself and his self proclaimed (and unconfirmed) skill level. I stand behind Nausicaa's statement on players and what they post, which is that their idea's should be weighed based on their own value, instead of the claimed or proven value of the player. Shwickid222's posts have been self touting and relatively barren content wise, which stands as the most useless kinds of posts on these forums. I aim to either inspire more intelligent posts, or mollify the poster into stopping his tirade on all well thought out and well articulated posts.
 

shwickid222

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
226
I'm just sick of this guys Prometheus-esque boner for himself and his self proclaimed (and unconfirmed) skill level. I stand behind Nausicaa's statement on players and what they post, which is that their idea's should be weighed based on their own value, instead of the claimed or proven value of the player. Shwickid222's posts have been self touting and relatively barren content wise, which stands as the most useless kinds of posts on these forums. I aim to either inspire more intelligent posts, or mollify the poster into stopping his tirade on all well thought out and well articulated posts.
Haha dude for real? My posts arnt pointless. Quite frankly I dont think u have a clue as to what your saying. Ive seen kids post lol.... yea lol compares to what ive been posting. I talk about real **** and someones pissed. Sry that ive been in the game longer tool. Show me your videos hot shot. I have a life outside smash piss stain. And im a pretty damn good player for someone who plays once a week. Before u come at me on some bull **** y dont u really look at other posters coments. Your a joke. Peace.
 

Fortress

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
3,097
Location
Kalispell, MT
Alrighty. So, let's go ahead and break the video down.

The first ten seconds of the video encapsulate how that matchup should go for you; Snake has a lot of trouble dealing with pressure up close, kind of like how Link does, and struggles moreso once he's up in the air.

Your first death could've been completely avoided had you just did a flame choke into the ledge, but before that had happened, you were whiffing a lot of moves whilst facing the wrong direction. Don't get too committed to the attacks you're trying to throw out, or you're going to find yourself throwing punches at empty space on a sort of 'autopilot'.

I think that by 6:45 (in-game timer) that you should've killed Snake at least once. You tend to do a lot of F-airs, which are great killers, but G has some awesome spacing options in his B-air that double as potent finishers at fairly low percentages.

At 2:00, WIz throws a 'nade at you, and probably could've killed you with a U-air if he'd reacted better to it. On your part, don't be afraid to shield more, and to hold your shield for more than a nanosecond.

At ~2:23, you get Wiz off of the stage at about 50%, but just DD around rather far from the edge. Don't be afraid to put yourself closer to the ledge, and punish his recovery with some B-airs. Really, when you see Wiz recovering above the ledge and away from the stage, that's a perfect setup for a B-air punish. At exactly 2:25, Wiz is lined up perfectly for a nice backhand to the jaw. Punishing his recovery like that, over and over, can net you some pretty quick kills, and rack up damage quickly. I guess my point with this, is that you need to capitalize on the opportunities that you make for yourself more often. There are plenty of times up to this point where you could punish Wiz more for poor reactions, whiffed attacks, or bad recoveries, but did not.

This isn't specific to Ganon himself, but use that platform more. Use the stage more. Shorthop-waveland-Uair off of that plat more, or off of the ledge, in order to mix up your approaches and offenses. Get Wiz onto the platform at an early percent, and use the height advantage to try and boot him up to the ceiling more quickly than normal.

Of course, when you get Wiz on the ground, there's always the option of an immediate Wizard's Foot, which can be an extraordinary killer at low percents.

All-in-all, you have a solid game, a grasp of tech skill, but need to take advantage of the stage more often, use more discretion with your tech (don't just do it to do it), and punish. Once you've got Snake in a corner, making a poor recovery above the stage, you can take advantage of it and waste him. You played a good game, and the only reason I would say it was at all in Wiz's favor, despite you having higher tech skill and knowledge than him (just my own judgement on that), is that Ganondorf simply suffers once Snake gets a little distance, and can exert control on the stage.
 

shwickid222

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
226
Did u watch both matches? I appreciate the advice. I feel I used the stage more on battlefield lol
 

Fortress

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
3,097
Location
Kalispell, MT
I only had time before a meeting this morning to watch through the first one a few times, and I'll probably watch it even more. Can't really give you any advice on just one sitting. And, I would hope you use the environment on Battlefield more than Smashville; there are better plat setups.
 

GeZ

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
1,763
Location
The Speed Force
Well it's a lot easier to discuss your play when there's actual video's of it, so to start, you've got a good grasp of Ganon's relevant tech but, like Fortress said, you use it more for the sake of using it than to give yourself an advantage. You're a more technically advanced player than the Snake you were playing against but you had to work for your kills because your wavedashes were without purpose as was a lot of the normals you threw out.

You would commit too much to a lot of your moves as you used some of your moves that are worse options at close range. For instance you would be right next to snake and use a jab or a side tilt but then go into up tilt for no reason. This gave the snake player enough of an opening to swat you away and put distance between himself and you.

You have what is a good facility for your defense, but also bad habits that lead you to take more hits than you should. For instance you use spot dodge, which is good, but you use it in a lot of situations where just shielding would have served you better. You use pretty safe moves for approach but every now and then you'll throw out Flame Choke or Warlock Kick like fat haymakers. They can be good tools to surprise your opponent when they wouldn't expect it, like jab, side tilt, WK, but you would often just connect with something and THROW IT OUT, which is too predictable and punishable.

Snakes recovery is really predictable and easy to hit him out of, but you have trouble because you always try to spike him out of it, which is the hardest way to beat it.

With all of your good grasp of WD'ing and DD'ing you've got bad habits for out of combat moving. When you're approaching or not expressly attacking you travel almost exclusively by jumps and rolls. It's predictable and will get you grabbed or swatted by better players.

What I'm getting out of all of these matches is that you and your friend have a good skill level so far (though the 'better than pc chris and kage' comment is still silly) but both of you need to THINK more. You do a lot of stuff for the sake of doing it and that leads to a predictable game. Because neither of you have that aspect of the meta in mind it doesn't show when you're fighting each other, but against anyone else your bad habits would get cracked open and exploited til you started thinking enough to break them.


edit: You also don't kill fast enough. You play aggressive but don't have enough of a regard for your options so snake often lived til around 150%, which is insane since your Ganon and he kills when trying to get people to that percent.
 

Fortress

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
3,097
Location
Kalispell, MT
The short and sweet of it is punish more, be aggressive, and Snake should have zero chance off-stage defensively.
 

GeZ

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
1,763
Location
The Speed Force
The short and sweet of it is punish more, be aggressive, and Snake should have zero chance off-stage defensively.
I'd really say it boils down to what I put in my past block of text. Without putting more thought into the game, he'll never really rise as a player because his bad habits and tricks will be taken advantage of.
 

shwickid222

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
226
Mmk I can accept that. Positive criticism helps instead of saying someone sucks. I appreciate the coments. I will break these habats. Sometimes I do random stuff to throw my opponent off. I learned platforming like 2 weeks ago so its still a tad rusty. But I will improve.
 

Fortress

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
3,097
Location
Kalispell, MT
The worst 'random' thing you can be doing is throwing out attacks that had no chance of hitting the opponent with that in mind. You'll be punished, hard. In fact, you don't want to be doing anything 'randomly'; you want to do mix-ups. For instance, with Link, I'll occasionally do a bomb punt as opposed to AGT or a regular throw, just to mix up what comes down to the same sort of attack. Don't do anything sporadically, your actions should be a response to your opponent's attacks, and you should always know why you're doing something.
 

GeZ

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
1,763
Location
The Speed Force
Good to hear man. You've got the facility to be a great player, you just need to apply yourself to it. Looking forward to your improvement as a player.
 

shwickid222

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
226
How many people really trully main ganon?... seems hit or miss with me. Hes hard to pick up lol
 

GeZ

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
1,763
Location
The Speed Force
He's a tough character to play well because you have to play very consistently to do well. I don't know anyone in the P:M community who mains and is really solid with Ganon, but I'm sure there's someone in the Ganon forums who could direct you to some crazy guy who wrecks. I really like the character personally and dabble with him, but I don't play with anyone who plays the game super seriously and mains him.
 

Professor Pro

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
10,261
Location
England, South London
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mXXwUEtBiBc





bam video and gez I bet your not better. Nvr heard of you amigo.
I'm a bit confused how you could think that this MU is borderline un-winnable or Snake is OP from this performance to be honest. You seemed to be handling it reasonably, and you won lol.
You need to Side B a lot more, a lot of the time you have Snake pinned down in his shield and you jump at him and hit him with an aerial, there were sooo many times where you could have empty hopped into Side B because the Snake was scared of getting hit.
And Side B is the most annoying 50/50 to play against, ALWAYS Down B left or right after Side B at killing percents, it's literally the biggest 50/50 in the game, there's no tech option the opponent can do to avoid it being a 50/50 of whether you Down B to the right or left.

Your spacing with Ganon's aerials wasn't that great either tbh which is one of the most annoying parts for playing against Snake, you didn't CG Snake at all with D-Throw or shut Snake down with your tilts.

Do you still hold the same position out of curiosity that this MU is stupid and Snake is OP?
 

shwickid222

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
226
Itslike hit or miss. We both have good days and bad days. I think the main problem is we play each other too much. So we read each other too well. Anyone have a clue when the next project m update will be available? ImI'm ready for some upgrades lol
 

Fortress

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
3,097
Location
Kalispell, MT
Winter 2013.


...yeah, it's pretty vague. I'm wondering if PM:BR will just secretly put the 3.0 update in their downloads section without telling us, and it's just a huge surprise. I keep jumping on hoping that's the case.
 

shwickid222

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
226
I also don't believe snake has problems up close lol. Let me explain.. his three punch combo is quicker than Ganon. The three strikes quickly stops my palm and sends me packin. So does his two hit. His ground physical attacks are fast and strong. I'll post some more videos in the upcoming week. I'm just so frustrated and snakes grab range and I played snake for the first time the other day and he was SO easy to learn and how his attacks just set u up for more. I was co tending won some again wizkid who's beeeeen playing him. Idk how I possibly get that close towinning or even win compared to someone's who's played him for a while now. Everyone can argue to me as much as they want, bit I've been in the fighting game scene since I was eight... And some of his attacks are just utter bs.
 

GeZ

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
1,763
Location
The Speed Force
He's definitely good, but not unbeatable. In close range Ganon's jab should be able to outspeed all of snakes moves. Thing comes out faster than jesus.
 

Fortress

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
3,097
Location
Kalispell, MT
I also don't believe snake has problems up close lol. Let me explain.. his three punch combo is quicker than Ganon. The three strikes quickly stops my palm and sends me packin. So does his two hit. His ground physical attacks are fast and strong. I'll post some more videos in the upcoming week. I'm just so frustrated and snakes grab range and I played snake for the first time the other day and he was SO easy to learn and how his attacks just set u up for more. I was co tending won some again wizkid who's beeeeen playing him. Idk how I possibly get that close towinning or even win compared to someone's who's played him for a while now. Everyone can argue to me as much as they want, bit I've been in the fighting game scene since I was eight... And some of his attacks are just utter bs.
Snake's got plenty of problems up close, trust me. He has one of the hardest times approaching and dealing with pressure out of the cast members available, and he's even more helpless in the air. You can crouch cancel his jab to beat it out with a d-tilt, and follow through with a quick shorthopped aerial, or whatever you feel the response should be at the time. But, again, just crouch cancel him, G's a tank.

Snake does have a lengthy grab, and Ganondorf himself has a pitiful range, but Ganondorf's aerials can act as a hard counter (in my experience) to a grab-happy Snake, seeing as Ganondorf has plenty of range in his aerials, with a lot of power behind them. You might also feel Wizards Foot on the ground to be a helpful counter to a Snake that you know is going to fall into a predictable grab routine.

Snake's a much... I don't know if this is fair to say, but 'easier' character to play than Ganondorf. I think the right wording would be 'he's quicker to be rewarded with than Ganondorf'. G's a tough character to play because of his glaring disadvantages, but there's plenty about him that makes up for it, just like there are plenty of less-than-obvious flaws that Snake has.
 

WizKid911

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Messages
207
Sounds groovy. Smash some face and get some dunks in. I'm secretly hoping that you're absolutely wrong about Snake, and that you destroy him and crack him in half with Ganondorf.
I did get pretty destroyed lol. Thanks for rooting for ganon you jerk lol. It was a poor match imo. Snake is pretty good. I don't knowwhere i would place him. I still have hella trouble with spacies and i dont play tooo too many others. Who do you guys think is ahead of snake on the tier list? Also what is the worst i mean most despised mu for snake that you can think of and why?
 

Fortress

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
3,097
Location
Kalispell, MT
If we're talking tiers for Snake and Ganondorf, I'd put Snake in the top twelve (fifteen?) and Ganondorf somewhere in the bottom fifteen. Still, tiers don't mean as much in P:M, as a good Ganondorf stands a better chance in P:M against Snake than a good Ganondorf did in Brawl, or Melee for that matter (granted, Snake wasn't in that).

As for matchups that I would assume Snake would hate? Maybe floaties? Anybody who can pound him in the air, and be hard to catch up with or keep in place would be my bet, but I don't play Snake at all.
 

deadjames

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 16, 2013
Messages
1,668
Location
Missouri
NNID
deadjames
3DS FC
0989-1855-2743
Winter 2013.


...yeah, it's pretty vague. I'm wondering if PM:BR will just secretly put the 3.0 update in their downloads section without telling us, and it's just a huge surprise. I keep jumping on hoping that's the case.
That's actually pretty specific, Winter 2013 is only a 10 day window, so based on that it should be out sometime between December 21 and 31.
 

deadjames

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 16, 2013
Messages
1,668
Location
Missouri
NNID
deadjames
3DS FC
0989-1855-2743
Wait, doesn't winter last from November to June?



...what state are you from..?
I think you're forgetting about Fall and Spring, Winter only lasts from the end of December to the end of March.
 

WizKid911

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Messages
207
Oh and btw is it weird that i nearly lost to shwick? He thinks snake is easy to use, but i have told him time and time again that i dont actually fight snake so yea the first couple matches were close but after that i found myself two stocking him. I had even picked ganon that night and i got some close matches on him... and i literally suck with him so i feel like you cant argue that unless that person hasgood mu experience with their own character
 

deadjames

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 16, 2013
Messages
1,668
Location
Missouri
NNID
deadjames
3DS FC
0989-1855-2743
I have really limited Snake experience, I've only played against one and it seemed like he was trying to play Brawl Snake which wasn't really working out for him. I've dabbled with Snake and he seems good, but definitely not top tier, it's like he can't decide whether or not he wants to be a camping/zoning character like Link, or an up close fighter that relies on hard reads to get ridiculous combos like Falcon or DK. He's ok at both, but doesn't really seem to excel at either. That's just my take on him, perhaps I'll spend more time with and see if I change my opinion.
 

Fortress

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
3,097
Location
Kalispell, MT
Snake's high-tier, but definitely not top tier. His strengths and weaknesses are polarizing enough to keep him balanced out, and it's just fine. Snake can combo just fine in the hands of somebody who really knows him, but in my experience against him, he's not as much of a combo-orientated character as, say, Falcon or Mario. He hits hard, punishes and positions, and uses the stage for quick KOs.

This is Snake's whole thing, stage control:

[Collapse=Mission]
[/collapse]

[collapse=Accomplished]
[/collapse]

[collapse=Colonel]
[/collapse]

Tasty.
 

deadjames

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 16, 2013
Messages
1,668
Location
Missouri
NNID
deadjames
3DS FC
0989-1855-2743
Snake's high-tier, but definitely not top tier. His strengths and weaknesses are polarizing enough to keep him balanced out, and it's just fine. Snake can combo just fine in the hands of somebody who really knows him, but in my experience against him, he's not as much of a combo-orientated character as, say, Falcon or Mario. He hits hard, punishes and positions, and uses the stage for quick KOs.

This is Snake's whole thing, stage control:

[Collapse=Mission]
[/collapse]

[collapse=Accomplished]
[/collapse]

[collapse=Colonel]
[/collapse]

Tasty.
Yet, Mario has the tools to deal with all of that, just saying.
 

Fortress

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
3,097
Location
Kalispell, MT
Cape all day, baby. I know, I know. My old friend from WA mains Snake, and it was nothing but cape, cape, cape against Mario, who was my main at the time. Mario just happened to be the character being shown in that video, against Snake. In fact, that video was demonstrating Mario's abilities to counter Snake.

In fact, you might even call it Super Smash Mario: Snake Smasher.
 

deadjames

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 16, 2013
Messages
1,668
Location
Missouri
NNID
deadjames
3DS FC
0989-1855-2743
Cape all day, baby. I know, I know. My old friend from WA mains Snake, and it was nothing but cape, cape, cape against Mario, who was my main at the time. Mario just happened to be the character being shown in that video, against Snake. In fact, that video was demonstrating Mario's abilities to counter Snake.

In fact, you might even call it Super Smash Mario: Snake Smasher.
Perhaps I just need more experience to realize Snake's prowess, the one I played against was in doubles and he just kept trying to set up traps while my teammate and I 2v1'd his partner and made him siphon all of his stocks away. I was using Toon Link, and the MU didn't really appear to be very favorable for Snake at all, once he realized our strategy he wasn't really able to deal with me walling him out from his partner.
 

Fortress

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
3,097
Location
Kalispell, MT
Snake should actively be controlling space with 'nades, his DACUS, and C4 drops. Lay down mines when your opponent is otherwise occupied recovering or respawning. At least, that's how I thought Snake should be played in general. It just takes too much time and poses too much a risk to carefully lay out traps during a fight. At least, to get all crazy detailed with it.
 

Professor Pro

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
10,261
Location
England, South London
Winter 2013.


...yeah, it's pretty vague. I'm wondering if PM:BR will just secretly put the 3.0 update in their downloads section without telling us, and it's just a huge surprise. I keep jumping on hoping that's the case.
As a member of the PMBR I can tell you that we would never randomly update the website without telling anyone lol.
Best advice is to subscribe to www.youtube.com/user/ProjectMelee and check for updates in vids :)
 

FlashingFire

Smash Journeyman
Writing Team
Joined
Jul 2, 2013
Messages
455
Location
Oklahoma
You know, it just occurred to me that there's not much of a point to determining what position Snake occupies on a widely subjective character ranking list in a game as nascent and likely to change as P:M. I mean, suppose we decide he's 9th or something. What does that tell us? That we should switch to a higher-placed character until the next update? That we have to somehow concede something to these "better" characters? Granted the discussion is interesting, but I'd prefer to focus on specific matchups and evolving Snake tech than devote too much time to determining his tier placement.

And I'm definitely not just impatient for a detailed reply to my ZSS question in the Snake matchup thread.
 

WizKid911

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Messages
207
I see what you mean. But its just interesting to know that a snake player can whoop a character on the top of the tier list seeing as everybody underestimates him. Everyone has their own opinion of certain characters because they have had different experiences and different opponents. I don't really have any zss experience because i am actually the one in my group that plays her, and i am the one to play snake. I cant fight myself lol. But imo i think zss has the upper hand speed wise, obviously snake has the means of keeping her at a distance but zss is quick and acrobatic. If you know how to use her then you can evade nikitas and grenades. Her A combo is much faster than snakes. Her grab is quick and has more range, and when it comes to mines that are planted she can blow them up easily by shooting them. Also snakes recovory as i would imagine would suck against zss because of her up b which sends you straight down. Her recovery isnt much to brag about but in certain situations its useful and others its stressful. I give snake the upper because of his projectiles but zss the upper hand because of her speed. That seems to be one of my snakes weaknesses. Fast characters. I forgot to add that snake is at times.... rediculous to kill. Does zss really have any attacks that can take snake out for good?
 
Top Bottom