Snake's new 3.0 side-b

[drsusredfish]

Then it would become a tech chase tool for aerial opponents and become to centralizing.

It's really good though where it is atm, I'm looking forward to everyone trying it out

But it makes so much more sense then just doing nothing. Does it hit like a laser? No clanking or neutralizing it? Is it land cancelable? If its like that then i can see it being too centralizing. Otherwise I don't see it being that great of a tech chase tool since it seems to have modest end lag and hits at a distance that can't easily be punished if they tech roll away. The field could be set to explode with mines and c4 and what not but doesn't that add to his chess like game play?
(not trying to be difficult just a discussion)

 

[JTsm]

http://www.twitch.tv/jolte0n live stream is up ^_^

 

[drsusredfish]

Watching profpro play snake... i think i'll retract my statements on an affective air tranq

 

[Matty89]

Down throw off the ledge? How was down-throw changed?

I meant to tranq them, grab and walk to the ledge and lay them down to where they would just fall. But after last night I'm just ready to have the tranq already. Looks like a whole lot of fun.

 

[JTsm]

That downthrow tech chase is going to be so ****ing baller. I love you Prof <3

 

[FlashingFire]

Daaaang this tranq gun is going to be sweet. It'll annoy the heck out of my nikita-spamming friend, but I can just imagine the reactions to stuff like Dthrow > Tranq > C4 > anything.

Edit: Oh, and it looks like jab reset > Tranq will be tasty.

 

[F. Blue]

Rolex gave the Nikita a pretty good farewell show this passed weekend at Warzone 3. Honestly his sets against DJ Nintendo and Mew2king are a pretty good argument for it being an effective aggressive tool. Really sad to see it go.
http://www.twitch.tv/rundas1234/b/484307560?t=2h17m42s

 

[Professor Pro]

Rolex gave the Nikita a pretty good farewell show this passed weekend at Warzone 3. Honestly his sets against DJ Nintendo and Mew2king are a pretty good argument for it being an effective aggressive tool. Really sad to see it go.
http://www.twitch.tv/rundas1234/b/484307560?t=2h17m42s

It wasn't removed though because it was seen as too much of a good defensive tool so making an argument for it being a good aggressive tool wouldn't hold much weight in the first place.

I honestly think Snake's Tranq Gun makes him slightly better design and gameplay wise and definitely helps him in the floaty MU's and the characters with great mobility which is what he struggled with before.
I think people will grow to love it and it's definitely got a harder and healthier learning curve than the Nikita.

 

[mYzeALot]

Pro can you give us any ideas about nerfs snake is getting such as his up-throw, or any other changes?

 

[Xethos]

I can imagine the sheik matchup improving in snake's favor. I think snake will have balanced matchup a now, as opposed to some where he fails and some where he destroys. Also, players who struggled on planting a sticky will have a easier time. After all, not all of us are as good at it as prof here.

But yes, I too would appreciate a pseudo change list for snake.

 

[MagnesD3]

Idk how to feel on this one.... defensive play shouldnt be shunned, (unless if it was truely a broken tool, idk I dont play snake) If it wasnt broken I dont understand why they changed it, seems like poor design if they did it just to alter his playstyle to be less defensive...

 

[Xethos]

I agree that defensive play shouldnt be shunned. However, in preparation of 3.0, I adapted a slightly more aggressive style and I saw nothing but improvements. I nearly eliminated my nikita usage and switched to snakes fair and down b, and I can now win matches I struggled in before. Snake is one of those characters that plays best with a certain balance of agro and defense. The nikita wasnt broken. It just limited the capabilities of certain players, me for example. That is why Im totally up for this tranq.

 

[mYzeALot]

A lot of people are still thinking of Snake's brawl days of camping with nades and mines, but if you watch pro play its a BUNCH of dashdancing and baiting approaches by moving around. Snake seems like he has a bunch of tools to camp, but all of his "camping tools" don't really do enough to make it worthwhile. But one cool thing is to mix up your aggression with like a cooked nade to catch them off guard. I also heard rumors of Snake's up-throw getting changed to be less chain-grab friendly :O.

 

[Xethos]

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! NOT THE CHAIN GRAB!!! That thing was great, aw man. Im going to take that with a grain of salt, but Im just hoping it doesnt get nerfed. That chain grab was my best friend haha.
But yeah, project m introduced a whole new game for snake. I 100% agree with you on his camping not being worth it. Prof in my opinion has the perfect balance, and thats why he could claim the title of best snake. Still though, the chain grab...

 

[FlashingFire]

Uthrow will stay awesome

http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/1s4727/30_snakes_uthrow/

 

[Xethos]

Yesssssssssssss... I can still annoy the heck out of my friends haha. Thanks man, I can live in peace now.

 

[Professor Pro]

I don't know where this U-throw change rumour started from but it's 100% wrong lol. Its unchanged.
As for changes to Snake in 3.0, there have been a few KB, Angle and animation tweaks on a few moves but nothing really game changing (besides Tranq Gun of course lol)

Also Nikita wasnt changed purely for defensive reasons. It did create a lot of defensive scenarios but it was fairly easy to avoid as well.

 

[Rexis]

I have to find a better internet access to watch this stream. I can't believe they changed the Nikita, though.
I will not say anything against or in favor of it, until I try it out myself.
Professor Pro says it's a good change, so that's a plus.
But the reality of the situation (of many Snake players) is, old habits die hard.

New changes are approaching and I'm still very hyped for 3.0!
Only 2 more days.

 

[Raziek]

Having tried the 3.0 build, Snake feels quite awesome. U-tilt and F-Smash's animations being polished up look a lot nicer.

Tranq gun is really fun to mess around with, I just REEEEALLY wish there was a way to cancel the reload if you do so accidentally.

 

[SSS]

Having tried the 3.0 build, Snake feels quite awesome. U-tilt and F-Smash's animations being polished up look a lot nicer.

Tranq gun is really fun to mess around with, I just REEEEALLY wish there was a way to cancel the reload if you do so accidentally.

How do you do the reload?

 

[Xethos]

This plays even better than I imagined! Maybe just me, but it pretty much blended into my game in no time. Sadly I can't play on my wii for another 2 weeks, so I have to use a wiimote and play on dolphin, so results may be skewed. But good job on this. Getting some streaming/recording equipment soon so perhaps I can share some of my snake in action. Again, good job prof.

 

[Xethos]

How do you do the reload?

to reload press sheild button within 6 frames of pressing side b. A little tight but entirely feasible.

 

[SSS]

to reload press sheild button within 6 frames of pressing side b. A little tight but entirely feasible.

So I could just do both at the same time, right?

 

[Xethos]

So I could just do both at the same time, right?

I'm not entirely sure. I won't be able to try out 3.0 until Friday, but I think you should try to press them roughly the same, but keep in mind the order. That's how I thought of it yesterday and I've been able to consistently get the reload. So it's pretty much pressing them at the same time, but pressing shield ever so slightly later.

 

[-Ran]

- If someone fails to tech a forward/back throw, you can tranquilize them on their bounce.
- After a down throw/situations where a character is on their back, fat characters such as Bowser/Dk/Dedede/Charizard/and a few others, will be hit by the move if they fail to put in an input.
- The hitbox is large enough to where you can tag people's feet that are touching a platform, such as BF. You can aim for the platform, and get them. Even slightly under it from what I've tested.
- Up throw to a platform becomes very dangerous for others, since a short hop shot will cover their options rather thoroughly.
- I need to check the ledge invulnerability, but ledge hop side B could be interesting.
- Speaking of the ledge, Side b covers every get up option someone has, outside of burning a jump.

 

[Professor Pro]

Tranq gun is really fun to mess around with, I just REEEEALLY wish there was a way to cancel the reload if you do so accidentally.

The Tranq gun now has a higher learning curve for Snake players in which bullet management, setups and memory plays an important part and also further distinguishes people who put time into the character. Just keep on playing and always reload between stocks

- If someone fails to tech a forward/back throw, you can tranquilize them on their bounce.
- After a down throw/situations where a character is on their back, fat characters such as Bowser/Dk/Dedede/Charizard/and a few others, will be hit by the move if they fail to put in an input.
- The hitbox is large enough to where you can tag people's feet that are touching a platform, such as BF. You can aim for the platform, and get them. Even slightly under it from what I've tested.
- Up throw to a platform becomes very dangerous for others, since a short hop shot will cover their options rather thoroughly.
- I need to check the ledge invulnerability, but ledge hop side B could be interesting.
- Speaking of the ledge, Side b covers every get up option someone has, outside of burning a jump.

Side B from the edge is really good and gives his previously poor edge game a better option.
Also you missed out a VERY important setup. The Tranq can be guaranteed jab rest into, so the moment you jab someone be prepared and definitely try to throw it into your game if you get any from D-Throw, F-Tilt or other scenarios.

 

[Aenglaan]

Although I like the fact that Snake finally can use a gun from his own series, I feel that the Mk-22 (new side B) does have a huge weakness, your opponent has to be on the ground for them to go to sleep. In the air, it's practically worthless. On the ground, however, it can lead to easily planting a C-4 or going into a grab game, as others have mentioned.

It's something with a high learning curve, but I think I'll get the hang of it.

 

[FlashingFire]

Considering that successfully hitting with the dart can mean a guaranteed kill setup, being able to use it effectively against aerial targets would be pretty ridiculous.

 

[NoLife]

Yes it can be reflected. It's technically the same article (projectile) as Nikita's missile.

sweet a powersheilded tranquilizer dart to a easy kill would b badass

 

[TommyDerMeister]

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-3-0-released-changelog-in-post.343401/page-9#post-16088343
I've been posting a bit in the changelog thread about this already. I reeeeeally hate the tranq gun and would love to see it go in the next update. Bring back the Nikita, it's so much better overall.

 

[Xethos]

*sigh*

I am going to start off with saying that before 3.0 my playstyle revolved around the nikita, more so than any player I have EVER seen.

Now, I am going to talk about edgeguards. The nikita was unarguably an amazing tool for this. But, its not like snake cant survive without it. Pretty much every aerial snake has can be used as edguards, especially his fair and nair. Try them out. They just take appropriate timing and usage. (Edguard is the only part of nikita i miss btw)

Kill potential: the nikita was also really nice as a killing option. However, try his fair, dair, uair, and especially his sticky. If used correctly, all these could be used to annhialate opponents. Stickying and then building up percentage, then utilt or throw into mine after which detonating have better kill potential that the nikita ever did.

Onto the tranq itself
The tranq is not noob friendly AT ALL. It takes time to get used to it, but once you do u will realize that its not bad at all. It supports stickying opponents, which again, undirectly provides better kill potential. You could also use to stop player momentum, which is vital on falcon and spacies.

I admit that the tranq and nikita support different playstyles. I was once a major nukita user, but I now realize that the tranq is a change for the better. It doesnt help noob or mid lev players, but boosts professional play significantly. Just keep in mind that its something you have to get used to.

Also dont expect pmbr to keep things the same as brawl. The point of pm is to create a new experiwnce: one between brawl and melee. That would be impossible if they dont change things.

 

[GigasOverlord]

I feel that the more Snake players that adapt to the Mk-22 will also find themselves using frags more as well. I use grenades to clog airspace and force people down to the ground so it's easier to tranq them.

 

[Professor Pro]

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-3-0-released-changelog-in-post.343401/page-9#post-16088343
I've been posting a bit in the changelog thread about this already. I reeeeeally hate the tranq gun and would love to see it go in the next update. Bring back the Nikita, it's so much better overall.

I'm a bit confused at how people can't see how Tranq Gun makes Snake better design and gameplay wise. I truly believe Snake is a better character from this now, Nikita is good at a low level because you can just spam it out and people don't know what to do about it. But at a higher level all it does is create defensive stale mate situations where neither player gets much from it (this is referring to neutral game)
Now the character actually has a move which can threaten people at range and tech chases and reap rewards from it in neutral.

So neutral game there's no debate which one is actually more useful, so all that leaves is edgeguarding...

He loses an edgeguard tool now, but there's nothing wrong with that, it just means you have to engage in his edgegame a bit more instead of having a more braindead approach to throwing it out as soon as your opponent is off the edge, and Snake STILL has loads of edgegaurd options even with the loss.
Dair, C4, Fair, Bair, and tranq can still snipe jumps....people will learn how this helps Snake gameplay a lot over time.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Snake with a long range sing? AWESOME!

 

[Whiskeymatt]

I feel that the more Snake players that adapt to the Mk-22 will also find themselves using frags more as well. I use grenades to clog airspace and force people down to the ground so it's easier to tranq them.

This is what I love so much about the Mk-22. Sure, the loss of the Nikita takes away a powerful edge guarding option, but I feel the addition of the Mk-22 boosts Snake's ground control game immensely. A smartly placed mine and lobbed grenade can force your opponent into the perfect spot for a tranq --> sticky or tranq --> throw. In my opinion it's made Project M Snake into one of the best designed Smash characters ever and a lot more fun to use.

 

[MagnesD3]

still not seeing the need for this change at all, erasing a good tool people love is not a good design choice imo.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

still not seeing the need for this change at all, erasing a good tool people love is not a good design choice imo.

It was certainly a good tool, but not everyone loved Nikita. I always felt dirty when using it. Everything just sort of stopped when I pulled it out, and it invalidated a good portion of the casts' recoveries. That's not to say it couldn't be used somewhat aggressively, but still, overall, in my opinion, Nikita's design was just bad.

The tranq. gun, however, is just boatloads of fun. It's quick, versatile, and doesn't instantly slow down the pace of the game. Plus, it's a huge boost to Snake's neutral game.

Seriously, aside from his new taunt, the tranq. gun is the best thing the PMBR has given Snake.

 

[MagnesD3]

It was certainly a good tool, but not everyone loved Nikita. I always felt dirty when using it. Everything just sort of stopped when I pulled it out, and it invalidated a good portion of the casts' recoveries. That's not to say it couldn't be used somewhat aggressively, but still, overall, in my opinion, Nikita's design was just bad.

The tranq. gun, however, is just boatloads of fun. It's quick, versatile, and doesn't instantly slow down the pace of the game. Plus, it's a huge boost to Snake's neutral game.

Seriously, aside from his new taunt, the tranq. gun is the best thing the PMBR has given Snake.

If the nikata had actually been a bad tool or retardedly overpowered then I would feel different but blatantly erasing a good move to replace it with another more situational (albeit good move) that is used in entirely different situation I feel is a poor design choice on the PMBR's part I truly hope they change it back. Nikita was apart of snakes identity moveset wise and fit perfectly well with his trapping moveset.

 

[GigasOverlord]

Nothing says trapping like getting a free stick off of a tranq. That is essentially ultimate trap because you can trigger whenever you want.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

If the nikata had actually been a bad tool or retardedly overpowered then I would feel different but blatantly erasing a good move to replace it with another more situational (albeit good move) that is used in entirely different situation I feel is a poor design choice on the PMBR's part I truly hope they change it back. Nikita was apart of snakes identity moveset wise and fit perfectly well with his trapping moveset.

A move can be a good tool and still be poorly designed.

In the end it really just comes down to personal preference I suppose, and if you loved Nikita the change must suck; however, just thinking about each tool design-wise, personal preference not considered, I can't help but think that the tranq. gun is simply the more well designed move.