Snake Recovery

[Professor Pro]

Sooo has anyone got any videos of them playing Snake, it's one of the characters from what i've seen with the least footage, would be good to get some activeness going on :D

 

[G13_Flux]

i think this is very MU dependent as well, and maybe we are considering different ones overall. but by defensive i do not mean passive. I do not mean that you should sit at a corner of the stage and wait for the opponent to come at you before you make a move. when i play snake, i play very aggresively, but that doesnt necessarily mean offensive in my definition. you can play aggresively with projectiles from a distance to fight for control of the center portion of the stage, and then you maintain your space with further usage. if you play offensively with snake, as i see it, that means you further challenge the opponent by engaging them and making a move. with projectiles this is all fine and dandy, but if you mean to push them off the stage you are going to have to do more than grenade camp. An offensive snake will imediately close down on his opponent and attack somehow. i think the patient snake is better. play aggressively with projectiles, and wait for a reaction that you can punish. dont just rush in and engage cuz you will get punished for it. what attacks does snake have that are safe on sheild? what aerials does he have that have little enough lag to be followed up with by a jab or some other quick move that leads to additional pressure and not just a shield grab? a good snake must be more patient then that, as you do not have the attributes to fully breach someones defenses without playing it safe first and forcing them to react through the use of projectiles.

This is how you would play if you were playing a space animal. i would like to see a snake run at fox falco or wolf and come out alive with it. the space animals are going to play offensively and agressively. they will run at you and burn your shied down until they can combo you. if you are going to play them, you need to set fail safes (grenades that carry timed explosions, mines, nakitas that can fall and explode, your up smash that drops a mortar after a certain time), and react to their offenses properly until your fail safes can lend you an opening where you can get in use your tilts and grab set ups to begin racking damage. additionlly, you can garner true combos from snakes up OOS, which set you up for grabs, juggles, kills and so on. This is not to say that you let people pressure your shield, but it establishes you as a powerful defensive force, and contributes to the mental aspect of the game, forcing an opponent to weight there own options agains you carefully.

To me this is defensive play. your traps and projectiles pressure opponents, and take away options from them by forcing them to figure an alternate route. through proper use of projectiles, you can effectively limit an opponents options through which they can attack you. That is how i define defensive. think of a football game, the secondaries (idealy) cover all the options that a quarterback has to pass, while the linebackers cover the running options as well as short pass routes, and the linemen cover running alleys directly up the center and attempt to limit the souce of the offense, the quarterback, until there is no attacking option, and the offense is shut down. the defense can play aggressively, by blitzing and sending multiple defenders in to shut down the quarterback (your projectiles), or they can play passively realizing there defenses arent enough, and wait for an attack before they react, realizing they dont have enough speed and dont want to risk giving an opening. (this is someone like DDD IMO).

snakes projectiles limit an opponents route of attack until the point where he can come in and his own offenses take over. but you dont do that by trying to attack first. you must play patient with it and work towards it. that is how snake plays most effectively in my opinion.

think in comparison to clearly offensive characters, like the spacees. they look for openings and try to take advantage of them. you, as a snake, limit your oponenings to the point where they have no route of attack, then you capitalize.

i apologize for that being a mouthful.

edit: @professor pro,i play with the non wifi safe version as i hate not being able to L cancel with the light shoulder button press, so replays dont work for me. ive been meaning to set it up anyways to put up a couple demonstrations of some important tactics i find useful with my wolf, but ive been procrastinating on that.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

I didn't read any if that. Too long. Sorry.


Have an

 

[G13_Flux]

well it isnt my fault then if you dont want to take the time to develop your ideas. im here for intelligent discussion, to learn about smash, to help other people learn as well, and not for the argument. regardless of who comes out right in the end (if there is a way to even define that) its the process thats important. so lets leave it at that then.

 

[Professor Pro]

i edit: @professor pro,i play with the non wifi safe version as i hate not being able to L cancel with the light shoulder button press, so replays dont work for me. ive been meaning to set it up anyways to put up a couple demonstrations of some important tactics i find useful with my wolf, but ive been procrastinating on that.

That's fine man
I just personally find videos a lot more constructive to the development of a character, as theory-crafting can only take you so far and has a lot of limits though can help.

Hopefully some other people can post some other stuff footage, I should be at Jolteon's house LiveStreaming tommorow on www.twitch.tv/Jolte0n so make sure you guys check it out because I will def be playing Snake on there.

 

[SinisterB]

For one reason or another my Snake footage is always MIA, last batch of recordings have desynched audio and stuff so won't be uploaded. I might go through some stream archives though and see what I've got. I'll get some snack vids up.. eventually.

What time you figure you'll be up Prof? I'll defs try to tune in

 

[Jolteon]

I play with a proactive mindset of controlling the stage aggressively. You can't not approach and take advantage of all of snakes moves. You have to create the situation by forcing(or baiting) for it. Sure, snake controls his space. Good priority, insane grab range, good UpB, all the jazz. But if you stick to your little space, when someone gets in, your defensive options shrink and wam bam thank you ma'am, you're getting gimped, spiked, or shined.

For what it's worth, I find that Snake is a lot harder to deal when played in this manner. I also play an extensive amount of characters so I would argue that it is not a match-up issue.

 

[G13_Flux]

ah sounds good! il definitely check it out.

and i do agree, i find it best to connect between both theory, and practice. a good mix is key. ive been doing a lot of theory crafting lately so it would probably be best that i set up the wifi safe build to get on some videos as well.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

well it isnt my fault then if you dont want to take the time to develop your ideas. im here for intelligent discussion, to learn about smash, to help other people learn as well, and not for the argument. regardless of who comes out right in the end (if there is a way to even define that) its the process thats important. so lets leave it at that then.

I have no problem developing ideas and intelligent discussion. But if I see that your idea is hampering you more than helping you, I'll say something, and your outlook on the way this character is supposed to played is amateurish. No offense.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

For what it's worth, I find that Snake is a lot harder to deal when played in this manner. I also play an extensive amount of characters so I would argue that it is not a match-up issue.

Thank you for understanding what I meant. Thank you. So much.


Double post Cuz I can't multi quote on my phone.

 

[G13_Flux]

i find it a tad more amateurish that you assume so much with such a lack of reasoning. no character is meant to be played in a specific manner. your way of playing snake isnt the only way to play the character. if your going to sit here and try to tell me that i dont play the character properly and that im "amateurish" then i would like to see you use your brain and support your argument on how to play snake. Playing an extensive amount of characters is no good reason to say that snakes playstyle doesnt change with MUs. every character will play slightly different based on the MU, because every character is different. again, i would appreciate some reasoning. you can attempt to insult me and argue with me all day, but like i said, i could care less about what someone tells me over the internet. im here to discuss how the game is played, and if you are going to make bold statements about my view of snake, then i suggest you back up your own thoughts with something more than an insult.

so tell me, why is my view of snake hampering me? you must know a lot about me and my own smash experience if you are going to say that. you say u have no problem with intellectual conversation. lets see it then.

 

[SpiderMad]

You guys could post videos

 

[G13_Flux]

i know we talked about that a couple posts ago. i posted earlier that i needed to set up the wifi build. ill get to it within the next couple days and upload some videos of me and my friend when i see him at the end of this week, else all i could upload is computer play which is essentially pointless seeing as how they air dodge off the ledge every 5 seconds...

But it sounds like a better plan to me than what were doing now disqo bunny. how about it, by the end of the week, lets each post up some videos and well turn this into something proactive intead?

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

i find it a tad more amateurish that you assume so much with such a lack of reasoning. no character is meant to be played in a specific manner. your way of playing snake isnt the only way to play the character. if your going to sit here and try to tell me that i dont play the character properly and that im "amateurish" then i would like to see you use your brain and support your argument on how to play snake. Playing an extensive amount of characters is no good reason to say that snakes playstyle doesnt change with MUs. every character will play slightly different based on the MU, because every character is different. again, i would appreciate some reasoning. you can attempt to insult me and argue with me all day, but like i said, i could care less about what someone tells me over the internet. im here to discuss how the game is played, and if you are going to make bold statements about my view of snake, then i suggest you back up your own thoughts with something more than an insult.*

so tell me, why is my view of snake hampering me? you must know a lot about me and my own smash experience if you are going to say that. you say u have no problem with intellectual conversation. lets see it then.

Lol
Okay dude time out calm down. I'm not calling YOU amateurish. Sheesh. I'm saying that your last posts were merely based on an uninformed thought process. How many tournaments have you been to? How many people have you played? How long have you played smash? Who have you won and lost to? These answers are things that usually warrant someone's posts worth reading, aside from just being really good at "thinking smash". I'm not saying I'm the god of snakes and my word is bible, but I am very good at thinking smash, discussing the psychology behind the game, and I can usually tell when someone is saying something smart out of experience or just simply posting without experience.*

I'm trying to help you with better ideas and theories that you can build upon yourself, which is what these boards are for. And I know anybody here would agree that they've either read or posted an honest opinion about something that helped them or someone else tremendously. So don't take offense, look at the meaning behind the words.

No harsh feelings. Have an

Oh and characters can be meant to be played a certain way. This is can be MU dependent, or a base core of a play style. Snake exhibits the qualities to be more of a base core kind of character, revolving around certain moves and situations and cycling through those in what we call mix ups and reads.

Man that's a long post.

Have another for anyone who read that whole thing.

 

[G13_Flux]

well once again, if u think my posts are based on a uniform thought process, please detail your own views, using examples from my posts and explaining where u think i went wrong.

I am not a snake main by any means (main peach and wolf), but i have met decent success with the character against my friends and i would consider him a secondary after peach and wolf. tournament results can, but do not always denote credibility. i happen to live in an area where the only people that play project m are those that ive introduced it to and gotten them hooked. forgive me for not spending the money to travel nationally to tournaments that are highly recognized by the community, but i simply do not have the time to do so, nor do i have the money for air fares, hotels, and transportation.

the tournaments i have been to are remotely small and unrecognized nation wide. they are usually a small event put together by some club at my school and we will having a showing of around 20 to 30 people for doubles in brawl, and they dont even perform singles due to the lack of interest and equipment needed to properly conduct a bigger tournament. there is no showing of PM or melee. believe me, i wish there was.

regardless, you still made some fairly hasty judgements, and still u know nothing about me as an actual player. all i did was prove my case as to why i thought snake was defensive. take a look at my comparison of offensive and defensive to a football game. thats my justification. i do appreciate people helping me, and i appreciate when someone analyzes how i think and tries to "constructively" help. but you have done none of that. if you want to help me better myself on theories like u speak of, once again, i would like to see something more than judgements and ur justification that your intuition tells you im not thinking properly.

This is getting far off topic from what the post needs to be. so lets move past this and discuss snake. If you are going to let me know what u think of my thoughts, i suggest u read post #42 which was from me. there is a lot insight in there and im not going to accept peoples opinions of me unless they actually listen to what i say and understand what im saying.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Lol nationally accepted tournaments.

I'm just saying that experience will bring forth wisdom and better ideas. If you see this as an insult, oh well.

No more s for you

Edit: watching the stream, how do you do it Prof!? You just make everything work lol!

 

[Professor Pro]

For one reason or another my Snake footage is always MIA, last batch of recordings have desynched audio and stuff so won't be uploaded. I might go through some stream archives though and see what I've got. I'll get some snack vids up.. eventually.

What time you figure you'll be up Prof? I'll defs try to tune in

Would be good to see some videos of you, Daze said you are like the only good Snake that he plays against and we need some more Snake footage

Sorry I didn't re-post the stream when it was active BUTTTTT I got in A LOT of Snake footage for the sake of these forums so check out some of the games.

http://www.twitch.tv/jolte0n/b/357595598
0:00 to 22:32 Me vs Blinky (less experienced against Snake so kinda destruction lol)
1:17:34 Me vs Jolteon (more experienced against Snake)

But it sounds like a better plan to me than what were doing now disqo bunny. how about it, by the end of the week, lets each post up some videos and well turn this into something proactive intead?

Regardless if you two agree to disagree this should be happening lol.
I really want to see some other people other then myself playing Snake, want to try and learn different styles or tricks that I might be missing out myself, I don't want to get too locked into only seeing one way to play.

Edit: watching the stream, how do you do it Prof!? You just make everything work lol!

lol Well Snake has a lot of Solid BnBs, and the hardest part about due to his approach game is setting up those BnBs
His punish game is amazing so you just got to outsmart your opponent to set up those situations.

 

[G13_Flux]

i set up the wifi/replay version today so will have videos up in the next couple days. i will warn you though, i do not have a video capture card, so the footage will basically be replays recorded off my camera.. sorry but it will be the best i can do unless anyone knows a better way to do it

 

[G13_Flux]

heres some game play from the past couple of days. apologize that its recorded from my camera, had no other way to do it.

Snake vs Sonic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CopHs1n4hi0
Snake vs Ike: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0bvEyacDNs
Snake vs Pit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJjoefyff1g
Snake vs Pit #2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yThHaSk8gFA

constructive criticism is welcome. I think my biggest challenge as a player is getting the optimal control over my movements in the game, and making what i want to do match up with what i actually do. Sometimes i have the right of what i should be doing, but i botch an input and end up messing up the maneuver. Im not a snake main, so naturally i dont have this mastered in him, but ive put some fair practice in him since 2.5 came out and ive got a pretty good overall feel for what to do in certain sitatuations.

 

[Professor Pro]

Hey man, just watch the Snake vs Ike and Sonic.
And yeah, I can definitely see that you not having full control of the character basics such as L-Cancelling is bringing you down, you were stationary a lot as well, but I think your opponent wasn't good enough to punish it.
You kept on messing up solid set-ups to C4 and also you NEVER used Snake's Up B offensively out of shield at all.

Without trying to sounding or trying to be egotistic (and actually trying to help) you should watch how I play Snake and see some of the setups I do since I still feel you're at the beginning stages

http://www.twitch.tv/jolte0n/b/357595598
0:00 to 22:32 Me vs Blinky (less experienced against Snake so kinda destruction lol)
1:17:34 Me vs Jolteon (more experienced against Snake)

 

[G13_Flux]

no i understand, like i said theres a lot I mean to do but i usually botch controls, especially if that character is not my tried and true main. Im also limited in the people that i play, so often times im left for computer characters and that sometimes warps my perception of opponents in general.

I did watch your stream, and a lot of the stuff you did was stuff that i understand to do (like the C4 set ups, which i have been working on getting more accurately) and i know what situations to do them in. Ive got a good mental feel for snake, but im typical used to characters like wolf (my main) where im performing a lot of faster maneauvers, WDing, and L canceling, so when i move to characters like snake with a slower overall feel, i end up doing things i dont intend (like the ike match where i blew myself up.. lol), and is why i lost my lead in the sonic match. I have a few strings throughout each game where i shine with controls that i input, so its a matter for me of tightening those up and being consistent.

what is you opinion of dair? i used it several times (really more experimenting with it) in the sonic match and i felt after doing it there were better options i should have done, like a falling bair. More in general, when you are above the opponent (which is where u clearly dont want to be as snake) what ways do u get yourself out of it?

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

If I'm ever above, usually I try to b reversal c4 or grenade if I know I can't hit them out of their approach.

 

[Professor Pro]

what is you opinion of dair? i used it several times (really more experimenting with it) in the sonic match and i felt after doing it there were better options i should have done, like a falling bair. More in general, when you are above the opponent (which is where u clearly dont want to be as snake) what ways do u get yourself out of it?

Dair is best used as a tech chase, and getting all 4 of the hits so it pops them up in the air for a free C4 stick, it can also be used OoS to punish and laggy moves, and of course as a gimp.
You can also get like 1/2/3 hits of the Dair and if you FF and L-Cancel fast enough you can get a stick, though you are open afterwards for the opponent to punish you once you stick.

In aerial situations it all depends on the MU and situations, there's no 1 way to get yourself out of everything, sometimes Dair is good if they don't have an aerial which beats it but other times Grenade/C4 reversal is neccesary, or doing a Bair/C4 after an Up B to allow you to airdodge.
These are just some of the situations where the player will have to foresee the best choice and already know the options his chars has optimize this.

 

[bubbaking]

UpB > dair works as a jank pillar. I can often pull off two or three rotations of this sequence on people who are caught offguard by it. Since upB is so useful OoS, definitely consider it. UpB > uair works well too.

I should have videos of my Snake from a recent tourney up soon (whenever GHNeko feels like uploading them). Looking forward to some critique.

@OP: Snake's recovery is actually pretty good, IMO. Probably in the top half of the cast, I'd say. If you need to AD after Cypher, drop/detonate a C4. Don't forget C4 sticks that you have on your opponent if you need some breathing room. If you have a lot of room to fall (say, after upBing really high), you can cook a grenade in your hands and let it explode on you to refresh your upB, vBrawl style. This is pretty good if you can't make it to the ledge or something happened and you have to opt against actually recovering.

Also, a really neat and nifty strat is to cover your descent with a cooked grenade in your hands.
Specifics: Snake holds the grenade towards his back, so when you pull out the grenade, do so in a manner that puts your back to the opponent. Do a reverse B, a B-reverse, a RBR, anything to get your back to the opponent (the latter two can also let you fake out the opponent with your mobility). Here comes the good part. When the opponent attacks you with anything, if he hits the grenade (this is why you face your back towards the opponent), it will explode and completely override ANY KB you would have suffered from the initial attack. Snake is pretty heavy and the 'nade's not that strong, so he'll probably be fine after taking the explosion. I've already saved myself from LOADS of attacks that would have killed me before, such as Fox uairs and Ike smashes, with this method. More often than not, if the opponent's attack isn't heavily disjointed, he'll end up exploding too, so you land damage on your opponent AND you save yourself from death. If your opponent is high enough in %, you can initiate a DBZ-style battle in the air and your uar and bair are really fast, so you can actually flip the tables and net a kill off of this. For this reason, I find Snake to be VERY hard to kill until very high %'s when his grenades will kill him. He can circumvent other stronger moves by making you hit them. However, it is VITAL that you put your back to the opponent when doing this. If you don't, you risk your opponent getting a clean shot on you without hitting the grenade. If this happens, you'll receive the normal KB from the attack and drop the grenade. Now sometimes, the dropped grenade will catch the opponent by surprise and this is a legitimate thing to use in other situations, but it's usually not what I'm counting on when I'm trying to save myself from dying.

Now, once you hit the ground, shield and Snake will drop the grenade at his feet while protecting himself from the explosion. This is REALLY good for punishing opponents who are trying to catch Snake's landing. Sometimes, even when my actual descent isn't being threatened, I pull a 'nade anyway for the extra protection on the ground it brings.

 

[Professor Pro]

I should have videos of my Snake from a recent tourney up soon (whenever GHNeko feels like uploading them). Looking forward to some critique.

Looking forward to seeing some of your snake, i've seen you post quite a lot in general in different sections of PM but never actually really seen you play from what I can remember, so I want to see how you practicalize your theories

 

[Sebovich]

I think Snakes recovery is good. He can recover from a good horizontal distance, and its only weakness really is when it´s used from below stage, due do spikes and such ( the hover device gives him some protection though). I´m having trouble dealing with his recovery, since he always floats out of reach for my characters (Ganon, Wario, Bowser). Once he´s high up, you can´t touch him.

 

[bubbaking]

Just his punish his landing. He has a somewhat difficult time getting down, although B-reversals, dair, and 'nades help with that.

On other things, GHNeko never put up those vids..... (-_-)