Meta Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity (SLHG)

[SirMouse]

I agree I read his post but I didn't want to say anything since I don't main her/him but I wanted help out as best I could from what I noticed arc fire combos in itself easier than in vanilla and her speed as in getting attacks out in succession increase quite a bit. Honestly that there was the reason I didn't want to pick her up in the vanilla ver. she just felt too slow for me. But as you both stated it's mostly that recovery but everything else including offstage is fine. You have to save her second jump and be weary of the distance (like most of the cast) and manage when to go off stage for a spike since you'll probably have to up-b after that second jump.

as for ZSS

She is a little different then the vanilla version but most of her set ups still work, for recovery her up b is nerfed but she still has her other tools like down-b and side b/z-air to grab the ledge if need be. And her down throw to up-b set still works if you read their DI and adjust properly.

SirMouse I can relate with you because I felt the same when I started playing this, just give it time and adjust to it then you'll start to notice things like that the gravity isn't as heavy as it appeared at first glance.

Keep playing, keep learning because believe it our not everybody here is still finding new stuff in this mode so keep at it

Perhaps I was just too focused on her faults that I didn't try to find ways she's improved. I suppose I shouldn't just give up on her simply because she doesn't excel in the ways I'm used to in Vanilla.

As for ZSS, I suppose that's another case of simply having to adjust. I'm still not sure if she's at all better in this mode, but she's definitely better than I've been able to play her.

And yeah, Marth's recovery is a bit worse than slightly; I guess I was too enamored with his increased combo potential to think completely straight, haha.

 

[cerealkiller]

And yeah, Marth's recovery is a bit worse than slightly; I guess I was too enamored with his increased combo potential to think completely straight, haha.

I feel you! His ground play is so good, you feel so in control with him in this mode. I know I'm playing SLHG Marth and not vanilla when my hands start hurting. it's so much more intense

 

[BlueFury]

lol yea man you'll get a feel for it the more you play trust me it really does grow on you

 

[blargh257]

For Zamus:
Down throw fair up tilt at zero into juggle situation
Nairplaning into stuff
Down throw up b to kill essentially everybody at about 90
I think you can end combos with bair if you want
Zair is good
(etc.)
For Meta Knight there's a particular thing where if you're under a platform you can full hop up air onto it and chain for a long time, and if you manage bair right (jump before you do it) edgeguards are still fine.

 

[Hyper_Kirby]

Meta Knight is weird. Because of decreased lag, I find mindself playing his ground neutral like Brawl but I can't play his air neutral like Brawl OR Smash 4. I eventually found my way around it but he definetly changed.

 

[SAHunterMech]

I decided to improve upon my first custom-SLHG-inspired build. Here's version 1.5. It's meant to be played at 1.2x knockback. I basically adjusted knockback levels so that moves kill at percentages more closely resembling their vanilla counterparts. For those interested, I also made some finds regarding the anti-cheat byte, and getting hacked pieces to copy over from 3Ds to Wii U.

 

[IvanQuote]

So Bayonetta is a thing now. Her gimmick is with aerial combos that give progressively worse landing lag the more complicated you use it. Under this Meta however, I predict that Bayonetta will be an extremely powerful force to be reckoned with, unless the Heavy Gravity bit hurts her combos that is.

 

[ZADD]

All the new characters look very combo-oriented, I'm excited.

Cloud is already pretty damn fly.

 

[SaturnFrost]

SLHG, like it has with all the other cast, seems like it would only help bayo's ground to air combos and vice versa. I also had concern about how HG would affect her mid air combos, but i feel like it will only help her land them as true combo's Since both characters are under the affects of HG. How she will recover is whats on my mind.

Also has anyone tested slhg online to see if its back?

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Oh my lord these buffs make Mewtwo feel amazing in SLHG. He now has 2 moves that are 10 frames and under landing lag in his arsenal.

 

[blargh257]

Cloud seems a bit limited. Nair dtilt is really good and I think dtilt up air connects till death but I'm not sure. Up tilt has VERY little stun and doesn't set up for much.
But hey, combos off that nair can't be too bad.

 

[BlueFury]

So far what I've seen cloud seem like he has some nice combos and he's pretty speedy but with his recovery balances that so he's fine as now at least. As for the other two characters Corrin should be okay but we won't know with him/her till she arrives. Bayonetta definitely looks strong but i think a lot of people think her combos will be pretty strong damage wise but I think it might be the opposite. I think she might have to work for the kill kind of similar to sheik and ZSS. I also think that for some reason there's a catch to Bayo, Sakurai always has one with a seemingly strong character (like little mac). It seems like her strength lies in her combos to smash attacks but since we can't test this at the moment most of what we are suggesting is speculation.

edit: So I reviewed both the new characters move set explanations and my stance with Corrin seems about the same he/she will be good at least i believe so as for Bayonetta I don't think she'll be as "op" as some people think if you look at the move set explanation Sakurai gave some of her combos seem like she can be attacked right after and the more moves you chain together the greater the landing lag she has. We'll see man but I think she might have a similar skill cap similar to Ryu overall.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Oh my lord these buffs make Mewtwo feel amazing in SLHG. He now has 2 moves that are 10 frames and under landing lag in his arsenal.

3 Moves 10 and under confirmed. His fair has been reduced from 18 > 14 instead of 16 (as initially thought)
Holy **** Mewtwo.

 

[ZADD]

Can confirm, Mewtwo feels much better now. F-air has a longer reach now I believe, and the new D-throw sets up for it nicely.

Bowser can also U-throw > U-air most of the cast for a kill, nice.
Edit: Actually, Bowser's new throw is borderline Godlike. It's a guaranteed kill against anyone who isnt floaty... My god....

Ganondorf is slightly quicker, which is good for him. I dont know enough about Kirby in SLHG to comment on his changes...

 

[nannerham]

Charizard's dash attack has a new angle, if you get hit by it it puts you in a horrible position especially if your characters horizontal recovery is bad.

 

[blargh257]

Bowser could already up throw up air.
I'm mixed on his new up throw because while the kill combos are much better, he had an excellent opener in up throw aerial up b which did about 40. It still goes off, but either the up b is grounded which does much less or it's impractically late. Up throw -> new stuff is cool though.
Mewtwo has fair -> dtilt/up tilt on everyone at some point or another and it's an easy 30 if you get an early fair, and this will only make that easier and much more consistent which is great. I think dthrow dtilt is a true combo now at some percentages as well.

 

[Fundingle]

So do people still play this since it doesn't work online anymore? Maybe if a few people could run a stream and play some SLHG more people would learn about it. I don't see many new youtube videos about it and it kinda makes me sad. Default smash 4 is fun but its just not quite what i want in smash 4. Any chance for a mod/hack to allow people to play SLHG online again? I really wish we could see some of the matches with commentary for it. I noticed m2k plays smash 4 a lot on his stream. Someone should try to get him a ryo to set it up and play some SLHG.

 

[SaturnFrost]

So do people still play this since it doesn't work online anymore? Maybe if a few people could run a stream and play some SLHG more people would learn about it. I don't see many new youtube videos about it and it kinda makes me sad. Default smash 4 is fun but its just not quite what i want in smash 4. Any chance for a mod/hack to allow people to play SLHG online again? I really wish we could see some of the matches with commentary for it. I noticed m2k plays smash 4 a lot on his stream. Someone should try to get him a ryo to set it up and play some SLHG.

SLHG is the only way I play this game...Even with my immediate friends..Vanilla is a floaty slow paced disgrace imo.

On to the topic of M2K and SLHG.
M2K was hyped for smooth lander when it was 1st introduced to the Smash community posting about it on Facebook and what not. Since he was in the minority of big name Smashers who wanted to test it out (like alot of other players who had interest in it but couldnt convince others to try it) it quickly became yester-news for him.

GimR was another Big Name Smasher who was,at one point,interested in SL+HG. It seemed like he was digging the combo-ability,displaying Doc play on VGBC's stream. But like M2K, he was a tiny minority, and the rest is history.

Personally, Everytime I pop into Big name Smash stream's, I mention SLHG and get told that its a stupid idea by viewers and often streamers as well. As long as the Smash community has a hive mind about slhg ("stop trying to make it melee","the game's balanced around vanilla Smash4",Sanics Recovery is nerfed in that mode"), then Vanilla smash will be what we see on major streams for now.

I would stream/make vid's of SLhg,sadly I do not have the devices or steady group of players to do so.
Sakofshet really screwed our small community when he removed online for slhg.

 

[Fundingle]

Would it really be that hard for GimR to have a SLHG smash 4 xanadu one week maybe in feb when the new characters release. If you tell people about it they will probably practice it and try it out while they stream. You could do like 4 starter stages and 4 counter stages. Like starters would be FD, Battlefield, Town and City and Smashville. Then I guess the counters would be Dreamland, Lylat, Halberd and that new one Clock Tower. 80% of the games will be played on smashville regardless.

I think smash 4 will start to die as people switch to melee over the next few years. Wasn't zero already gonna go back to melee?
I just don't see smash 4 lasting very long with 2 stock constant footsies to kill throw/hard read gameplay style. The DLC was pretty big hype that is now over so I just see it going downhill. Doesn't melee have twice the amount of smash 4 players for Genesis 3?

That's a red flag if ive ever seen one...

 

[Krysco]

Would someone be willing to add me on Wii U and send me a set with SLHG for each character (including dlc)? I'd do it myself but I sold all of my equipment a long time ago and I doubt the stuff I've got now has Smooth Lander and I really don't wanna delete all data just to get a single piece of equipment again. Also 1111 for all characters would be preferred as well.

Edit: I just realized that my request might not be possible. Can only Mii Fighters be sent? If so, is there any easy way to get access to a Smooth Lander equipment piece again?

 

[KeithTheGeek]

The problem with SLHG in the long term is that it's difficult to get people to play it for various reasons. I might prefer it to vanilla, but 99.99% of tournaments run vanilla, so if I want to stay competitive in vanilla I have to regularly practice it.

It's also difficult for me personally to play it because I have to work around my work schedule, and my friend's work schedule, and getting new people to play it means convincing them why they should try it over vanilla. Without tournaments that's not likely to happen, so it's the chicken and the egg scenario.

With that said I'd like to get back into it when I can. Maybe I can introduce some people to it while I'm up at AGDQ with some friends...

 

[Aunt Jemima]

To be honest, SLHG will not get anywhere if Special Smash Online doesn't come back. It won't be able to get enough starting players to try it out.

We have one last patch to get this done. After Bayonetta and Kamui release, there's a 99% chance we're never getting it. It's obvious they have no plans to add it in at this point, too.

The only way to get this done is to make them know it's wanted. The most plausible way to accomplish this is to get /r/smashbros on board with Special Smash online and, while it may seem odd, Etika. We can't convince people about SLHG when they've never played it, but we can convince them to want Special Smash online. Who doesn't love Tiny Bunny Light Smash?

Anyways, I'm pretty sure Reddit and Etika is the best way because they get the most exposure. Nintendo realized Diddy Kong has the grab glitch less than a week after it's finding due to Reddit, while Etika helped it get everywhere on Twitter due to his large fan base.

gl guiz

 

[LiteralGrill]

Aw Aunt Jemima , you didn't mention a front page article by little old me?

But seriously, I'd totally do that. If it helped the cause for you guys I'm down. Plus the fact that you guys are still playing the kind of game you love despite the challenges is a good story no matter what!

 

[Aunt Jemima]

pls do front page article 4 us

plsplsplsplsplsplsplspls

 

[LiteralGrill]

I'd just need some things to work with, some more info. I'm only somewhat informed on this stuff. If you guys are cool with helping I'm down to write

 

[SaturnFrost]

I'd just need some things to work with, some more info. I'm only somewhat informed on this stuff. If you guys are cool with helping I'm down to write

Disclaimer: I'm not some sort of spokesperson for this community,just a guy who enjoys what SLhg has to offer to this game and its meta

In SLHG, Characters gain true combo's and follow ups to attacks and throws that would be escape-able in Vanilla Smash. Approaching is more rewarding since air landing lag is reduced which makes sitting in shield less rewarding. Spacing is still a factor but not as in favor of the player being approached. Some Characters recoveries get nerfed hard but are manageable with custom up B's (DHD and Megaman for example) and alternative recovery options (Sonic: Side B,Jump, Up B for example).

Both Recovering and gimping off stage are riskier since characters fall faster and recover lower (no more bottom blast zone recovering). So knowing what move to use ,and when to use it, while off stage (gimping and recovering) is more crucial.

CHARACTERS DIE FASTER (meaning more stocks)

Characters that would be considered non-viable (typically characters with the most landing lag) play more fluidly due to the lack of landing frames while characters with low landing lag to begin with feel pretty much the same in the air (shiek,pika,Zss as examples).

Overall the game just feels more competitive in sLhg. Some may say it takes some of the elements that makes melee such a competitive title. I see no problem with borrowing from greatness to create more greatness.

There is alot more to be said about SLHG and what makes it great for me. This is just my opinion and the 1st few thoughts that come to mind.

 

[Muro]

I'd just need some things to work with, some more info. I'm only somewhat informed on this stuff. If you guys are cool with helping I'm down to write

what do you need? tagging ZADD and ArtfulHobbes since they probably can help too.

 

[SaturnFrost]

what do you need? tagging ZADD and ArtfulHobbes since they probably can help too.

I agree with this. They seem to have the most footage of SLHG in action out of all of us.

 

[blargh257]

The problem with SLHG's PR is because of what people assumed about it when it was first discovered.
It was basically displayed as Smash 4: Melee Edition and it isn't that at ALL. It is barely its own animal. I like fall speed, I like aerials, and I like edgeguards and so I play SLHG. It's a new spin on Smash 4. People who say "Stop trying to make this game Melee" do not know what they are talking about and act like SLHG is in a state of constant flux.
We need to tell people what this thing really is.

 

[Muro]

another vid by cartererer:

 

[BlueFury]

The problem with SLHG's PR is because of what people assumed about it when it was first discovered.
It was basically displayed as Smash 4: Melee Edition and it isn't that at ALL. It is barely its own animal. I like fall speed, I like aerials, and I like edgeguards and so I play SLHG. It's a new spin on Smash 4. People who say "Stop trying to make this game Melee" do not know what they are talking about and act like SLHG is in a state of constant flux.
We need to tell people what this thing really is.

As blargh stated people need to know the truth and stop dismissing this idea when we aren't trying to display this as a PM/Melee fix. It's not melee and it's not PM but it has similar aspects to both but is that wrong that this mode favors them? Honestly I think SLHG is more of a mix of all the smashes but that just me.

LiteralGrill yea muro, zadd, and artful hobbes are kind of the veterans here so to speak so they are the ones to get the most info from when it comes to SLHG.

 

[Fundingle]

From my experience SLHG is all about combos. Less landing lag and knock back equals combos. It feels really fun to string 6 or 7 hits on someone. That just doesn't happen with most characters in normal smash. For sure it puts more characters into S tier level so the meta will be deeper. With HG duck hunt dog stage cant be used. Halberd and Lylat are perfectly fine stages and along with dreamland and that new stage coming. If the counter stages need to be balanced with the starters its possible. If a tournament wants only 2 counter stages id go with Dreamland and Clock Tower. The only draw back with SLHG is you cant chase someone off stage very far at all. Maybe jigglypuff can but you gotta be fast about it. Also pretty sure jigglys up throw rest might be a thing again.

BTW peach S tier FTW maybe

 

[TheDerp]

Sakurai has displayed to us all that he wants Smash to be a game that "everyone" can play, so I think it's pretty safe to say that we aren't getting Special Smash Online from him.
There is a Wii U Emulator being worked on, and the developement seems to be going faster than people expected , so what if in the future when the Emulator actually Emulates games better, we use netplay for SLHG online?

I mean, that's a really stupid suggestion, but it could be something to think about atleast.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

That's a huuuge barrier to entry. The cost of the hardware that'd be needed to actually emulate it properly once the emulator is in a good place alone is going to be a big turn-off. I mean, it'll almost certainly be more affordable when it finally happens, but that's likely a good couple of years away.

 

[ZADD]

LiteralGrill I can give you anything you need, or if you have any questions I can answer them.

SLHG accomplishes exactly what Sakurai intended, giving players the ability to play the way they want. I'm sure he was discouraged at the public's reception to Brawl, and he wanted to give us more say in the way enjoyed playing Smash. I don't think it is a coincidence the necessary pieces for SLHG are challenge rewards (ie. easy to unlock and setup), Sakurai is known for being mysterious and forethought. Heavy Gravity must have been tested during development, and I'd assume they messed with Smooth Lander as a Special setting as well. (Perhaps deciding against it, for fear of overshadowing Vanilla.) Why else would it would be the reward for such a commonly sought challenge? (All custom Moves).

LiteralGrill if you'd like me to make a short video that describes the aggressive gameplay advantages of SLHG, I'd be happy to.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Hobbes and I still have that document we started when planning out the new thread. I think he owns it so I can't find it atm but we can probably take some stuff from there.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I do think the heavy gravity helps out the game balancing a bit. A quick example, the reduced landing lag really helps out Dedede's walling game and addresses some of his issues landing, while the heavy gravity improves his advantage state over the other characters in a big way. I think he and some of the other heavies are big winners here, with their large improvements coming with somewhat worse disadvantage states and recoveries.

Not that the balancing is significantly better (and the harsher disadvantage states could be an issue if the meta was to be developed) but I can feel comfortable playing a lot of characters I wouldn't otherwise use in vanilla, at least outside of friendlies. There's a lot of things I've been meaning to lab since the patch and Cloud's release, it's just a matter of finding the time to do so.

 

[BlueFury]

I agree KeithTheGeek the heavy characters really do get a big boost from this and the heavy gravity itself allows them to tank more which is useful with the combination of Smooth lander. I also think it's quite silly to me that a lot of the community wants more characters to be valuable, wants more combos but not too much so that one can't escape or do anything while being combo'd, a faster paced game, and in a way a more balanced roster and SLHG is looking at them like "I'm right here, this is what your looking for" you know. But so long as we go about this the right way and don't come off as rude or whatever when explaining this it could become more.

 

[Krysco]

Alright so since I think I answered my own question before with the answer being that it's impossible to send fighter data over wifi (except for Miis) I have another question.

Would it be a good idea to erase my Smash data on my Wii U to get easy access to SLHG again? I'd have to rebuy all the dlc and redo all the challenges and have Ganon punch bombs for another 2 weeks to get all customs (which by the way, might be something that's holding SLHG back since people already aren't fond of unlocking customs). I checked my equipment and I had a Smooth Lander Blaster for Fox and Falco and I kept doing Crazy Orders over and over again to try and get more SL equipment and so far from burning over 30 coupons, I've only gotten 1 piece of SL equipment restricted to the Kirby trio.

I just got done trying SLHG with MK against the 5 characters I have with SLHG sets and it was a lot of fun. More interesting combos and less free recoveries (I learned the hard way how MK basically doesn't gain height from his jumps and jumping off stage to fair or bair is basically suicide).

TL;DR since I was dumb and got rid of the initial SLHG equipment piece, should I delete my Smash data on my Wii U to get it again?

 

[KeithTheGeek]

You shouldn't have to rebuy the DLC, you'll just have to redownload it from the eshop if that data ends up getting deleted with everything else. That stuff should show up with your previous purchases.

I personally think it would be worth it, unlocking the characters and stages again shouldn't take too long. Getting the customs again will likely be the biggest issue, but for the time being you can just focus on Duck Hunt's since we use one of the custom up specials for him.

However, the lack of people to play this with is definitely a big barrier. It'd be a lot easier to recommend this if online special smash was still there, but it ain't. :/