Meta Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity (SLHG)

[ZADD]

It's like Project M, brawl wasn't how we wanted, so we went in and fixed it ourselves

take it or leave it, but this is a way to get SLHG accepted more,

Yeah, and that turned out wonderfully on the legal side /s
Project M isn't exactly a shining example of source treatment.

Chanigng 1 or 2 things about SLHG wont change anything, becuase right now most people have no clue the depth and complexity SLHG brings as it is. They know it's faster, they know it was customized to make it more aggressive, but they don't know how. Making the standardized process even more complicated would throw off a lot of casuals, and would hinder community growth by a lot. It's cool you can play online, but Melee didn't have online and it did fine.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I'm gonna have to side with ZADD on this one, it sounds like you're trying to fix a problem that doesn't need solving.

The whole "it's too complicated" thing doesn't hold any water. Of the few people I've (tried) to play this with, it was pretty easy to convince one of them to try it out and get it set up on his Wii U, and the other two declined simply because they were practicing for a vanilla tourney, which I respected. Additionally this absolutely makes it more difficult for people to practice with, if they were even aware of SLHG to begin with.

I advocate homebrew in the case of allowing customs for Smash 4 because fast set up necessitates the use of a 3DS system anyways, and people can still reasonably unlock custom moves, as long as that may take. For SLHG, there could very well be a near infinite amount of possible equipment drops a person would have to farm for if they don't have a 3DS system or know someone who does. Not only that but we already have a standard system that's more or less proven to work that doesn't require a 3DS and can be set up from a fresh save file pretty quickly.

I've thought about how we could use homebrew to speed things up on a TO side but it mostly revolves around setting up Duck Hunt on the 3DS, using the same equipment effects as the Wii U...which isn't completely necessary imo.

 

[meleemaster500]

I'm certain there's ways to use this to improve the setup on the TO side, you should experiment for sure.

and while I've convinced a friend or 2 to try SLHG rather easily, any time it's been the topic of discussion at the tourneys I've helped plan, they disregard it for the various problems and would rather keep the game vanilla or with customs because to them it'll be more fair as they believe the game is balanced and wouldn't be if there were stat changes, however slight. this is simply another way to run SLHG, and one that allows for other equipment to be included without worry of unbalancing the game or intense grinding for the piece. It should help with experimenting with new ways of approaching SLHG for those who wish to try.

if you wanted to experiment and say you found that adding dodgy dodger improved SLHG (not saying it would) you could set that up on your 3ds for the respective characters, share your custom sets online so no one else has to individually set up their characters, and those with 3ds's can transfer the build to a wiiu in the same fashion as setting up evo sets, but with presumably only 1/8th the time. Again, I assume only those who care enough to want to have specifics in the SLHG builds would do this and don't advocate the layman to do it until the process becomes easier, like with an installer homebrew (which would make it exactly as easy to set up as PM is today)

also if there's concern for nintendo ever hardcoding in some anti cheat system that specifically checks equipment, you can always give it convincing stats that still equal 000 and it will be identical to any other piece on your system

plus the whole, able to play it on 3ds and online thing's nice. please enjoy.

 

[ZADD]

this is simply another way to run SLHG, and one that allows for other equipment to be included without worry of unbalancing the game or intense grinding for the piece. It should help with experimenting with new ways of approaching SLHG for those who wish to try.

also if there's concern for nintendo ever hardcoding in some anti cheat system that specifically checks equipment, you can always give it convincing stats that still equal 000 and it will be identical to any other piece on your system

Two huge problems.

1. Why would you further complicate the unlocking process by requiring a 3DS? Not everyone has a 3DS or access to one, none of those players would have the same "SLHG", and thus practicing it would be pointless.

2. If average players don't have access to these things, but they have a Wii U, how is this easier to get into than using 3 golden hammers and breaking 3 challenges? This seems monumentally more difficult for the average player who just wants to play SLHG. You have to be able to play with same engine/stats as everyone else, and we can already do that in 5 minutes...

 

[Muro]

Even if it wasn't hard to set up, anchor jump is not the same as heavy gravity though. Plus relying on a system which may not be there forever could bring problems down the line. And then we have to add the legal implications too (just look what is happening to PM). We already have a standard, which is 100% vanilla smash and doesn't take long to set up, I think we're better off sticking with it. In any case thanks for sharing this info.

A good use for this would be for people that already wasted their hammers, they could go and make the standard set this way.

 

[meleemaster500]

again, not asking you to change your system for the public, but many don't want to accept it the way it is, and this could help for those people who feel that SLHG, however refined it is, is unbalanced due to stat changes, and this could be another way to do SLHG for those who want to make sure it's balanced. or you can find other uses for this, like you said, those who dont have hammers to use anymore

I know there's plenty of ways to experiment by having access to any equipment now that 3ds hacking has been further opened to the public (and if it's any consolation, once the wii was hacked, several more ways to keep it hacked have come around)

feel free to use these tools however, and I hope you at least try it so you can have access to these online or on your 3ds.

 

[ZADD]

again, not asking you to change your system for the public, but many don't want to accept it the way it is, and this could help for those people who feel that SLHG, however refined it is, is unbalanced due to stat changes, and this could be another way to do SLHG for those who want to make sure it's balanced.

Unbalanced due to stat changes? I dont think anyone can tell the difference between 0/0/0 and -4a/+2d/+3s, especially with Heavy Gravity being a much larger factor anyway. SLHG is totally balanced, because at its core, regular Sm4sh is balanced. People could say anything is unbalanced if they've never tried it, it's more important to have ease of access.

 

[Muro]

I dont think anyone can tell the difference between 0/0/0 and -4a/+2d/+3s

Actually, I read something on reddit saying there isn't a difference in-game if stat differences are < 5. I don't know the source of that info though.

We're better off educating people on the setup we have rather than spreading ourselves thin between different solutions. This setup is 100% accessible in-game, so that's what we gotta stick with.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

The only thing that seriously affects character balancing is the moon-launcher badge, which makes some characters have some pretty silly damage off of their BnB (see DK). But I actually like that aspect of it, because otherwise you would just get stuck in a combo that does less damage but lasts much longer. It also makes someone like DK a lot more threatening than they otherwise would be.

I think for people who have a 3DS the homebrew method would be a faster way to set up for a tourney, but it isn't really going to help people practice casually. For the people who refuse to try it for the small changes the equipment make, they probably weren't interested anyways or they're just uninformed.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Well, here's the thing people need to understand.

Obviously, we're not going to change the default equipment needed for SLHG. Keeping accessibility is needed as not everybody will have 3DS Homebrew. However, there's a couple great things that come from this. If you or anybody you know re-creates the Wii U SLHG sets on the 3DS, only one 3DS is needed to get all SLHG Wii U's ready for a tournament. Along with that, if you take one of these loaded consoles to a tournament and others find interest in it, you can hook them up with all the sets right there so they can get started. This makes it so that running SLHG tournaments and getting the mode out there is even easier and generally much more effective, all that's needed is one 3DS. This makes it much more time effective as while getting SLHG running doesn't take long at all, this'll take even less time.

I'm going to test out Anchor Jumps with Smooth Lander and Moon Launcher as the other badges (with SLHG Wii U stats) on the 3DS. If the tests go accordingly, this also means that 3DS users have access to SLHG by using an incredibly simple homebrew method. Also, it'd mean we have SLHG online (or at least something similar to it), so that's cool.

After that, I'm just gonna mess around with things like Shield Degenerator, Dodgy Dodger, Glider, etc. just for fun. I'd personally enjoy playing SLHG friendlies with slight alterations, obviously not seriously, but it'd be interesting.

 

[meleemaster500]

Try glider for sure. Also it's come to my attention that as of now you cannot use hacked sets online whether with friends or with anyone. If you do, it works for a bit but gives you a 10 min ban for incompatible save data. For glory works fine though. Just don't use these hacked sets online until it gets figured out (now that it's out there)

 

[Aunt Jemima]

The Wii U's transfer method and the game's online use the same safe-check for game data. If it can be transferred to the Wii U, it should be usable online. I'll check in a bit.

I need to run more tests, but so far, Anchor Jump is actually incredibly similar to Wii U's Heavy Gravity. While recoveries aren't nerfed, it's very similar and should run basically the same. I'll report back after I run some version-difference tests~

 

[Muro]

I need to run more tests, but so far, Anchor Jump is actually incredibly similar to Wii U's Heavy Gravity. While recoveries aren't nerfed, it's very similar and should run basically the same. I'll report back after I run some version-difference tests~

I'd like more details on the Anchor Badge if you can. Specifically, what are the differences from HG.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I'd like more details on the Anchor Badge if you can. Specifically, what are the differences from HG.

Anchor Jump:

1.4x gravity
1.4x fall speed
1.1x fastfall speed

I have no idea what Heavy Gravity does. I'm assuming it just doubles the gravity, but I'm not certain.

 

[meleemaster500]

I tested the footage from TRC's "new" version for slhg where he compared heavy gravity with and without moon launcher. He did an uncharged up smash as Mario to another 129% Mario. The results were exactly the same. However, it seems that anchor jump modifies the actual rate of falling when in the fall or jump states and hg changes a global modifier. I would venture to guess items are affected too. So the only differences would be when the programmers overlooked a state to be controlled by gravity correctly. So maybe the anchor modifier works on jump and falling states but maybe not during certain juggles. But if that is covered than it appears practically identical to heavy gravity.

 

[Muro]

The main thing would then be how it affects knockback. If it keeps the same trajectory etc then it'd be really close.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Alright, finished some tests...

Anchor Jump, while being incredibly similar to Heavy Gravity, does have differences. Generally, the combos you'll be doing are the same across versions, but some things are changed. For example, you can't use a full hop B-Air as Marth and throw out another aerial before touching the ground with Anchor Jump, whereas with Heavy Gravity you can use moves like the first hit of N-Air or U-Air. Along with that, there's even more characters that cannot full hop to Battlefield platforms, such as Zelda. Anchor Jump still nerfs recoveries across the board as you have less air time, shorter height with your double jump, along with some recoveries having very slight nerfs such as Duck Hunt or Robin's recoveries. Edgeguarding is definitely possible. Kill percents seem to stay the same across versions, although the 3DS has slightly larger blast zones.

Generally, while it isn't a 1:1 clone to SLHG, it'll function just fine as the 3DS version of it. This can also allow people to play online for the time being until another method is found for SLHG, or Special Smash functionality is added. Along with that, this can be used to get a basic feeling for what will true combo in SLHG as it can be used in Training Mode. It's definitely a useful alternative to SLHG.

EDIT: Oh, to answer Muro's question, knockback and trajectory seems to be the same, obviously with slight changes due to the differences between the two. For example, Robin can still double Arc Fire and Zelda's U-Throw sends practically nowhere at low percents.

 

[meleemaster500]

If you're not already, perhaps the tests should be done with the same stat modifiers, in case a slight value of speed is making the difference

 

[blargh257]

Testing SLAJ I have noticed one major difference. Sadly, it's to my favorite character, .
In SLHG Meta Knight can full hop between Battlefield platforms, and if he up airs between them it is a fantastic combo extender, essentially acting as another free hit or, if no DI, an up tilt to another staircase up air if on the lower platforms, which you probably should be since MK has issues getting to the top. He can't do this anymore because he can't full hop between the platforms.
To my knowledge, he also can't SH autocancel up air, but this may just be me inputting poorly.
SLAJ is really good to have on portable, though.

 

[Muro]

yeah this discovery is great for us, this right here is super important:

If you or anybody you know re-creates the Wii U SLHG sets on the 3DS, only one 3DS is needed to get all SLHG Wii U's ready for a tournament. Along with that, if you take one of these loaded consoles to a tournament and others find interest in it, you can hook them up with all the sets right there so they can get started. This makes it so that running SLHG tournaments and getting the mode out there is even easier and generally much more effective, all that's needed is one 3DS. This makes it much more time effective as while getting SLHG running doesn't take long at all, this'll take even less time.

Not only can anybody unlock this mode, we have a feasible way to distribute it to every wii u on tournament day. From a logistics standpoint it's the best we could hope for. I'll have to update OP with this info, I'll do it when I stop being lazy.

 

[BlueFury]

SLAJ seems interesting as far as online, I wonder how this will work out.
I'll stay posted for details.

Hey guys, me and Reserved did some more research on recoveries and we made some discoveries with Duck Hunt and Sonic.

So first off with Duck Hunt, we feel like his custom should be changed to Duck Jump Snag. It goes higher than his standard Up-B and adds a hitbox that comes out frame 1 making it a great Out of Shield option.

Second is Sonic. Watch this video and hit the lab because this is going to be required for Sonic players in this mode.

Great find @ArtfulHobbes and @ Aunt Jemima this was definitely needed for sonic players and as for Duck Hunt I'll try that myself I'm curious about that recovery.

 

[Hyper_Kirby]

Testing SLAJ I have noticed one major difference. Sadly, it's to my favorite character, .
In SLHG Meta Knight can full hop between Battlefield platforms, and if he up airs between them it is a fantastic combo extender, essentially acting as another free hit or, if no DI, an up tilt to another staircase up air if on the lower platforms, which you probably should be since MK has issues getting to the top. He can't do this anymore because he can't full hop between the platforms.
To my knowledge, he also can't SH autocancel up air, but this may just be me inputting poorly.
SLAJ is really good to have on portable, though.

I've gotten SH auto cancel uair just fine. (Yes im using moon launcher set up). Its unfortunate that he can no longer roofie opponents, but for "game balance purposes" I'm sure most people don't find that a problem.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

He's talking about SLAJ, not SLHG. Meta Knight can't autocancel U-Air with Anchor Jump.

 

[DAT4120]

Two huge problems.

1. Why would you further complicate the unlocking process by requiring a 3DS? Not everyone has a 3DS or access to one, none of those players would have the same "SLHG", and thus practicing it would be pointless.

2. If average players don't have access to these things, but they have a Wii U, how is this easier to get into than using 3 golden hammers and breaking 3 challenges? This seems monumentally more difficult for the average player who just wants to play SLHG. You have to be able to play with same engine/stats as everyone else, and we can already do that in 5 minutes...

I know that can be annoying but if someone has a TON of custom equipment and all of the custom moves all you need is one person for all the custom characters.

 

[Hyper_Kirby]

He's talking about SLAJ, not SLHG. Meta Knight can't autocancel U-Air with Anchor Jump.

Oh. My mistake. You probably just have equipment that reduces your speed (which also reduces your jump height, air mobility, and floatyness.

 

[TheDerp]

I have to agree with melee here. Think about it. Lots of people modded their Wii, and with this, not only can we make a dream build, but we can also balance out characters with this. I don't plan on touching my 3DS in detail any time soon, and maybe we aren't quite at the point of modding 3DS and WiiU to a high degree (Big WiiU hacks can wait until 2016-17), this still would be making a big step, allowing a much more balanced cast.

Ignore, didn't read conversation fully.

 

[ZADD]

All i can say is that, if you require any sort of 3rd party plug-in to even play SLHG, the number of people trying it, and coincidentally playing it, will drop a lot. Even semi-casual players don't bring setups to tournies, they expect it to be set up for them. Sacrificing the current in-game build, for a homebrewed one with Shield Degen or whatever, would really hurt the perception SLHG currently has IMO.

The fact that these 3 badges work so well together, can all be earned with hammers, and are all near each other at the top of the challenge board, shows me that Sakurai had already (at least briefly) thought about Smooth Lander and how it could be used to speed up the game.

Perhaps Heavy Gravity's inclusion was player reaction, but I refuse to believe Sakurai hadn't messed with SL + HG (Otherwise why would Moon Launcher function the way it does?) It was no accident, Sakurai knew we wanted a new Melee... but he didn't want to discredit normal Sm4sh so he kept it somewhat hidden, at the top of the challenges (where only the most-dedicated players would find it, and realize its potential).

The homebrew exploit is an excellent option for sharing the initial Build 2 of SLHG with ease and even using SLAJ for online, assuming both are the same build with the same stats.. I would love to instantly grant Build 2 to anyone without Hammers, or the time to research SLHG. It would greatly benefit people who actually just want to try it.

 

[Muro]

Yeah the process to unlock any badge is too convoluted and a lot of people just don't like having to mess with their systems (harmless as it might be). Accessibility and availability through in-game rules are both key factors in spreading slhg. If down the line, after slhg is established we want to make it better, then the anchor jump is still not the answer, it's just a wasted badge used to half-ass heavy gravity. The final form of slhg would be SL + ML + Shield Degenerator, that'd be awesome, but right now it's better to continue on with this build.

 

[meleemaster500]

you should probably test anchor jump with identical stats as the original SLHG build before you make those assumptions

 

[Muro]

you should probably test anchor jump with identical stats as the original SLHG build before you make those assumptions

I would, but it's too much trouble. The jump height thing and the fact that it takes away the spot of another badge are enough reason though. What does AJ offer that HG doesn't? Sonic? Again, I'd just rather have the shield degenerator, if I was going to mess around with it.

 

[meleemaster500]

i'd be good to know if AJ maintains the same jump height (and any other differences it may have) that SLHG gets from its equipment. if so, then it wouldn't matter if people practice that equipment on a 3ds, since it'd be identical as HG with stats.
Secondly, it would also allow for those who wish to run a tournament and have the resources to use modded equipment to not worry about people not being trained for that tournament if they use the easier to get equipment instead. anchor jump would be more beneficial just for the fact that recoveries aren't affected.... IF it's identical.

If it is identical, then possibilities improve. If not, then feel free to claim it doesn't help as much

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I may get to messing with custom equipment myself, but I was under the impression that @ Aunt Jemima had already tested this with the same stats a few posts above yours.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Alright, finished some tests...

Anchor Jump, while being incredibly similar to Heavy Gravity, does have differences. Generally, the combos you'll be doing are the same across versions, but some things are changed. For example, you can't use a full hop B-Air as Marth and throw out another aerial before touching the ground with Anchor Jump, whereas with Heavy Gravity you can use moves like the first hit of N-Air or U-Air. Along with that, there's even more characters that cannot full hop to Battlefield platforms, such as Zelda. Anchor Jump still nerfs recoveries across the board as you have less air time, shorter height with your double jump, along with some recoveries having very slight nerfs such as Duck Hunt or Robin's recoveries. Edgeguarding is definitely possible. Kill percents seem to stay the same across versions, although the 3DS has slightly larger blast zones.

Generally, while it isn't a 1:1 clone to SLHG, it'll function just fine as the 3DS version of it. This can also allow people to play online for the time being until another method is found for SLHG, or Special Smash functionality is added. Along with that, this can be used to get a basic feeling for what will true combo in SLHG as it can be used in Training Mode. It's definitely a useful alternative to SLHG.

EDIT: Oh, to answer Muro's question, knockback and trajectory seems to be the same, obviously with slight changes due to the differences between the two. For example, Robin can still double Arc Fire and Zelda's U-Throw sends practically nowhere at low percents.

???

it's with the same stats as SLHG, you can't change anchor jump stats to match SLHG jumps without going over 20 speed lol

 

[TheDerp]

I have an idea for SLAJ which I can't test out cause my copy of SSB4 3DS is downloaded (I don't know if it's possible to mod downloaded games), but it could work.
There's an equipment badge called Jogger, and it slows down your running speed.
If you were to use Smooth Lander, Jogger and Moon Launcher this would be killing 3 birds with 1 stone since you'll get an imitation of the Glider Badge, running speed won't be over the top and you'll have jump close to SLHG jump height.
Also I think Perfect Pivots would be improved but I'm not quite sure about that cause it's probably the momentum of the start dash which makes you slide. Walking would do better as a mindgame tool though.

:EDIT:
Woah! We don't even need anchor jump! Equipment Badges have Weight stats. I never knew that...
If someone made it so that you can modify the weight the Badge adds or subtracts that would be cool to experiment with.

 

[meleemaster500]

Powersaves modify the saves on cards, while homebrew modifies downloaded game saves

The weight stat specifically affects the amount of "smash run powers" you can hold on your character, not character weight

i dont think slowing down running speed helps anything even if it makes aerial movement speed appear faster relative to running, plus is that a badge you get from unlocks? otherwise, why not just glider to improve aerial speed?

 

[meleemaster500]

by the way, another exploit has arisen, using smash 4 or its demo. less easy than the ironfall or youtube exploit, but supposedly you dont need an internet connection.

https://gbatemp.net/threads/ssb4-entrypoint-by-yellows8.397122/

 

[Muro]

I have an idea for SLAJ which I can't test out cause my copy of SSB4 3DS is downloaded (I don't know if it's possible to mod downloaded games), but it could work.
There's an equipment badge called Jogger, and it slows down your running speed.
If you were to use Smooth Lander, Jogger and Moon Launcher this would be killing 3 birds with 1 stone since you'll get an imitation of the Glider Badge, running speed won't be over the top and you'll have jump close to SLHG jump height.

SLAJ is not SLAJ without the Anchor Jump lol.

Also, half the point of heavy gravity was to nerf recoveries so there is more edgeguarding. Glider badge undoes that and exacerbates the discrepancy between vertical movement (nerfed distance by HG or AJ) and horizontal movement (not nerfed at all).

On another topic, what stages did we settle on before? Because I think lylat is more of a neutral than dreamland.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I tend to just use whatever is commonly agreed to be legal. Personally I would prefer a larger stage list that includes Delfino and something like Halberd, but I would also be a fan of using Skyloft.

If this was vanilla I would probably disagree about using Lylat as a starter over Dream Land, but the heavy gravity really does make a difference...I know Little Mac already has trouble with Dream Land's platforms, I'm sure others like Ganon and Bowser probably do in SLHG.

So just completely out of my butt right now:

Starter

• Battlefield
• Final Destination
• Smashville
• Town and City
• Lylat Cruise

Counter-pick

• Dream Land
• Delfino Plaza*
• Duck Hunt*
  
• Skyloft
• Miiverse**
• Omega Stages**

*I find these stages kind of questionable. Delfino has its blastzone jank but otherwise the layout is generally fine. Duck Hunt is kinda just...really big. And the heavy gravity makes working with this stage difficult. So many characters would have trouble reaching the tree I would be worried about the camping possibilities.

**Treat Miiverse/Omega as Battlefield/Final Destination during the banning phase. If BF or FD is banned, then Miiverse/Omega is banned, and vice versa. The player selecting the stage can choose which version of the stage to play on.

As much as I like Halberd it's low ceiling is problematic, and it's hard to convince people to have a stage with hazards on it to have it legal (as tame as they are). So that one is out. Wuhu Island kind of has the problem of being really big, and some of the transformations are awkward to traverse from my experience...problems that are again exacerbated by the heavy gravity. However we don't have too many stages with large blastzone legal, so we could run this in place of Delfino.

I would like to use Pokemon Stadium 2, but the wind transformation is complete jank. In vanilla Sheik and some others can get stupid early kills from 0% off a grab into a uair. The same probably holds true for SLHG, although I would have to test that to be sure.

Conveniently, this list I made has 9 legal stages, assuming we keep Duck Hunt and the two travelling stages, meaning you could adapt it to FLSS if that's your preferred method. FLSS makes the most sense to me as a system, but most players stick to what they know in Starter/Counter and I don't have any particular problems with that method.

 

[ZADD]

Conveniently, this list I made has 9 legal stages, assuming we keep Duck Hunt and the two travelling stages,

Duck Hunt is pretty unusable IMO. More than half the cast can't get on the tree.. Camp city.

Skyloft has a lot of vertical distance between platforms, which can be counter-intuitive to balanced gameplay.

My list would be like this:

Starter:
Final Destination
Battlefield (or Miiverse)
Smashville
Town and City
DreamLand 64

Counter-pick:
Halberd
Lylat Cruise (very polarizing stage for projectile users/zoners, idk how you guys can say this is neutral...)
Delfino Plaza (Sort of the same issue as Skyloft with high platforms, although most transformations don't have this issue.)

 

[Muro]

Starter

• Battlefield
• Final Destination
• Smashville
• Town and City
• Lylat Cruise

Counter-pick

• Dream Land
• Delfino Plaza*
• Duck Hunt*
  
• Skyloft
• Miiverse**
• Omega Stages**

take out skyloft and duck hunt and this is my list too. I think skyloft is too big and some transformations are bad. Duck hunt's platforms are definitely too high.

edit: just noticed you removed halberd altogether. The low ceiling is what makes it a good counterpick for characters who kill off the top. The hazards are pretty harmless I don't think it merits being banned.

Starter:
Final Destination
Battlefield (or Miiverse)
Smashville
Town and City
DreamLand 64

Counter-pick:
Halberd
Lylat Cruise (very polarizing stage for projectile users/zoners, idk how you guys can say this is neutral...)
Delfino Plaza (Sort of the same issue as Skyloft with high platforms, although most transformations don't have this issue.)

Seems like the only thing we disagree on is the place of lylat and dreamland. So let's compare the 2 stages:

Lylat: Main platform tilts left and right without warning. It´s impossible to camp the platforms because they are easily reachable from the ground.

Dreamland: Has wind and higher platforms. Some characters might have a difficult time dealing with camping on the highest platform because they can't even reach the lower platform in one jump.

And we could also say that FD is very polarizing for non projectile users because it gives them a big advantage. It's fair that another stage has the opposite effect.

The way I see it lylat's particularities are no different from T&C, and the platform height is good for HG.