Meta Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity (SLHG)

[TheDerp]

SLAJ is not SLAJ without the Anchor Jump lol.

Also, half the point of heavy gravity was to nerf recoveries so there is more edgeguarding. Glider badge undoes that and exacerbates the discrepancy between vertical movement (nerfed distance by HG or AJ) and horizontal movement (not nerfed at all).

On another topic, what stages did we settle on before? Because I think lylat is more of a neutral than dreamland.

I completely forgot about AJ while I was writing that xD. 20 doesn't seem very effective for air speed, so I guess it wouldn't matter if you just had Jogger, Anchor Jump and Smooth lander.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

My concerns with Halberd's low ceiling is that in vanilla, several characters (notably Rosalina) get ridiculously early kills off the top. But I'm testing it right now in SLHG and it feels like the heavy gravity is nerfing the kill power of these moves, even with the moon launcher badge in effect. So it could work out as a legal stage after all.

EDIT: On that note, and I know a lot of people are going to disagree with me on this, but...Pokemon Stadium 2. The biggest flaw with the stage was and still is the flying form, but once again the early kills happen later thanks to SLHG. I brought up before a couple of months back, but I would like to see more testing done on this stage. I kinda feel like it was just dismissed because nobody cares for it that much.

 

[ME GRIMLOCH]

I don't even know why we are changing the stage list....All the vanilla stage list are fine except duck hunt which I heard can be a bit of a problem in slhg since some characters can't reach the tree or so I've heard.

My concerns with Halberd's low ceiling is that in vanilla, several characters (notably Rosalina) get ridiculously early kills off the top. But I'm testing it right now in SLHG and it feels like the heavy gravity is nerfing the kill power of these moves, even with the moon launcher badge in effect. So it could work out as a legal stage after all.

EDIT: On that note, and I know a lot of people are going to disagree with me on this, but...Pokemon Stadium 2. The biggest flaw with the stage was and still is the flying form, but once again the early kills happen later thanks to SLHG. I brought up before a couple of months back, but I would like to see more testing done on this stage. I kinda feel like it was just dismissed because nobody cares for it that much.

Oh boy here we go. SLHG doesn't make any of the jank stages any better (might make them worse tbh) and if we change the stage list too much SLHG might be less accessible to people switching from vanilla. Therefore making our community even smaller and people saying our gamemode is stupid even more. Bringing in PS2 and skyloft is definitely not the route SLHG should go in terms of stage list.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I'm under the opinion that Skyloft should be legal in vanilla, anyways.

And no, I definitely think we should consider different stages for SLHG. The changes in physics is notable enough that it alters the dynamics of certain stages. Platform height becomes a much more significant issue, hence why I suggested ditching Duck Hunt, and low ceilings, while still providing earlier kills, are somewhat nerfed in that aspect. And while I've always liked Halberd I was beginning to think that the low ceiling was an issue in vanilla, in SLHG we have a chance to reconsider its place in the stage list.

A different stage list is a pretty dumb reason for people to ignore something, to be quite frank. We already have different regions running different stage lists, customs on/off, things like that. Either way modelling SLHG's ruleset after vanilla is the wrong way to go. Things that might make sense under vanilla rules, such as 2 stocks 6 minutes, or rules surrounding the usage or banning of custom moves, simply cannot apply to SLHG. And I think stages fall under that and deserve to have a second look.

When the subject of banning Delfino from SLHG came up a while ago, I debated in favor of its legality because the main concerns with the stage were that certain transformations made it impossible for players to get out of the water...but I was able to prove that wrong by testing the stage out with characters like Little Mac and Ganondorf. To me, the main thing that stands in the way of stages like Halberd and Pokemon Stadium 2 from being legal are the excessively early KOs that occur on them in vanilla. But if SLHG mitigates that effect, while still offering those things as a feature of the stage for counter-picking purposes, then they should be reconsidered. If we still ban them then that's fine, but we should at least show a shred of legitimacy and do it after proper testing and experimentation of the stages. Not just because it might scare some people away.

 

[Muro]

what is the generally agreed stagelist for vanilla btw?

 

[ME GRIMLOCH]

I'm under the opinion that Skyloft should be legal in vanilla, anyways.

And no, I definitely think we should consider different stages for SLHG. The changes in physics is notable enough that it alters the dynamics of certain stages. Platform height becomes a much more significant issue, hence why I suggested ditching Duck Hunt, and low ceilings, while still providing earlier kills, are somewhat nerfed in that aspect. And while I've always liked Halberd I was beginning to think that the low ceiling was an issue in vanilla, in SLHG we have a chance to reconsider its place in the stage list.

A different stage list is a pretty dumb reason for people to ignore something, to be quite frank. We already have different regions running different stage lists, customs on/off, things like that. Either way modelling SLHG's ruleset after vanilla is the wrong way to go. Things that might make sense under vanilla rules, such as 2 stocks 6 minutes, or rules surrounding the usage or banning of custom moves, simply cannot apply to SLHG. And I think stages fall under that and deserve to have a second look.

When the subject of banning Delfino from SLHG came up a while ago, I debated in favor of its legality because the main concerns with the stage were that certain transformations made it impossible for players to get out of the water...but I was able to prove that wrong by testing the stage out with characters like Little Mac and Ganondorf. To me, the main thing that stands in the way of stages like Halberd and Pokemon Stadium 2 from being legal are the excessively early KOs that occur on them in vanilla. But if SLHG mitigates that effect, while still offering those things as a feature of the stage for counter-picking purposes, then they should be reconsidered. If we still ban them then that's fine, but we should at least show a shred of legitimacy and do it after proper testing and experimentation of the stages. Not just because it might scare some people away.

Yes I think we should look at the stage list and ban the legal stages that don't quite fit SLHG to well BUT that seriously does not mean we should experiment with stages like PS2 and skyloft. We already got a lot of vanilla stages to pick from removing 1 or 2 of them from the list due to whatever reason does not mean we need anymore stages to replace them.

 

[ZADD]

The only important thing is having 5 starters, the # of counter-picks after that is not important.

 

[Xeze]

what is the generally agreed stagelist for vanilla btw?

Starters:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Town and City
Dream Land 64

Counterpicks:
Lylat Cruise
Duck Hunt
Omega stages

This is the most conservative stagelist in the regular Smash 4. Some ruleset include Halberd, Delfino and Castle Siege as counterpicks as well.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

what is the generally agreed stagelist for vanilla btw?

Most, if not all lists tend to run the following stages:

Battlefield/Miiverse
Final Destination/Omega
Dream Land
Smashville
Town and City
Lylat Cruise (Counter-pick)
Duck Hunt (Counter-pick)

The majority seem to run these stages, although their legality are called into question (and some regions ban them):

Delfino Plaza
Castle Siege
Halberd

Beyond those stages, you have fringe cases like Skyloft and Wuhu Island that more liberal regions include in the stage list. As far as I can tell, Skyloft was initially banned from EVO because of music licensing problems, and a lot of stage lists followed suit. Besides that, the stage does have clipping issues, so you could question the legality based on that. Wuhu on the other hand seemed to have been banned because of a glitch that has since been patched. There's some other problems I have with it, mostly the sheer size of the stage, but you'll find a number of people arguing in favor of it being legal.

And I still disagree that we shouldn't consider looking at making other stages legal. I have no particular problems with running a smaller stage list but it's better to reach that conclusion in a proper manner.

 

[Hyper_Kirby]

(My 3ds is up to date. My Wii U isn't)
Can someone test this:lhttps://youtu.be/dg9mjRqXB-U
I heard Luigi's down throw sends you higher but is this still a kill set up?
Edit
I'm on mobile. Idk if url doesn't work for it or I messed it up. I guess you can copy and paste the url to find the vid
https://youtu.be/dg9mjRqXB-U
Edit
Ok.. It worked... I suppose can stop talking now...

 

[ZADD]

I heard Luigi's down throw sends you higher but is this still a kill set up?

Fox had hardly any DI, and he could've teched a few times too, or counter-attacked with N-air or Jab.

Luigi's neutral is pretty abysmal in SLHG, so this kill setup seems like an appropriate reward. It's also against Fox, who is the most susceptible to true setups in all of SLHG (Maybe MK too). I highly doubt this works on floaties.

 

[Hyper_Kirby]

Fox had hardly any DI, and he could've teched a few times too, or counter-attacked with N-air or Jab.

Luigi's neutral is pretty abysmal in SLHG, so this kill setup seems like an appropriate reward. It's also against Fox, who is the most susceptible to true setups in all of SLHG (Maybe MK too). I highly doubt this works on floaties.

Even if he did DI, he wouldn't go any real distance. If he DI's away I can always jump cancel up b, not to mention it has hitstun all the way. (I didn't test the combo but I tested the hitstun duration and it is a forced tech situation). Also I did test it on other fast fallers and it worked. It does not work on floaties but Luigi has a plethora of kill setups anyway.
(I'll also mention that this was a level 9, which typically airdodges everything)

Also, I'm just curious if the setup works with Luigi's down throw knock back increased(?)

 

[Muro]

looked like he could DI down and away + tech the floor to avoid it (I don't really have anyone to test it with). Still a pretty good setup.

edit: is this the same JDA that used to play on rynhardt stream a while back? No wonder he bodied everyone lol

edit2: dude uses a wiimote..wat lol

 

[TheDerp]

If any of you are familiar with EMG Super Smash Bros. Play of the Week then maybe one of you could upload a hype clip of an SLHG match. I don't really have anyone to do cool matches with so I have got nothing, but I'm sure this would raise some attention if someone submitted a clip.

 

[Hyper_Kirby]

If any of you are familiar with EMG Super Smash Bros. Play of the Week then maybe one of you could upload a hype clip of an SLHG match. I don't really have anyone to do cool matches with so I have got nothing, but I'm sure this would raise some attention if someone submitted a clip.

I got nothing unless he's cool with crappy quality :/

 

[TheDerp]

So much Hitstun added that Chain grabs are possible.
EDIT: I mess up a lot in the clip btw.

 

[ME GRIMLOCH]

So much Hitstun added that Chain grabs are possible.
EDIT: I mess up a lot in the clip btw.

Oh boy giant smash? We have hit rock bottom boys there isn't a way to come back from this. Game over man game over.

 

[TheDerp]

Oh boy giant smash? We have hit rock bottom boys there isn't a way to come back from this. Game over man game over.

I don't really know if that's a positive or negative response, cause I'm not the brightest in the bunch, but I mean, when I play with Mega size and Heavy Gravity, it looks like Melee. I haven't really played Melee before, but like, it looks like Melee. Fox and Falco are pretty fun to play. I would say the only bad thing about it is that you would have to make a stage for it. Not like you could really take it seriously with the low voices and the glitch Ness and Lucas get playing on Mega size. Meh.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

I haven't really played Melee before, but like, it looks like Melee.

It... really doesn't.

 

[ME GRIMLOCH]

I don't really know if that's a positive or negative response, cause I'm not the brightest in the bunch, but I mean, when I play with Mega size and Heavy Gravity, it looks like Melee. I haven't really played Melee before, but like, it looks like Melee. Fox and Falco are pretty fun to play. I would say the only bad thing about it is that you would have to make a stage for it. Not like you could really take it seriously with the low voices and the glitch Ness and Lucas get playing on Mega size. Meh.

No it really does not look like melee even normal slhg doesn't look like melee. This game will never look like that no matter how hard you try and that was a negative comment if you couldn't tell by now. Heavy Gravity is already pushing it but this is ridiculous.

 

[TheDerp]

:C. Atleast try it. Like. Some stuff doesn't look like Melee, but Luigi is really slidey, I guess. Maybe it's just the overdose of Hitstun which makes me think it looks like Melee. And the Up throw chain grabs.

If one things positive though, it'll have to be that I got you guys talking again.

 

[ME GRIMLOCH]

:C. Atleast try it. Like. Some stuff doesn't look like Melee, but Luigi is really slidey, I guess. Maybe it's just the overdose of Hitstun which makes me think it looks like Melee. And the Up throw chain grabs.

If one things positive though, it'll have to be that I got you guys talking again.

I remember when I used to think the same thing. SLHG looked like melee to me but then I played pm for 2 seconds. But I'm not gonna lie that is true there has been very little activity here lately so gj I guess.

 

[Muro]

yah without videos, or online to play each other, there really isn't much to talk about. Nintendo really screwed us over when they patched out special smash online.

Hyper_Kirby you can upload straight to youtube so unless you have no internet connection where your wii u is there shouldn't be a problem with video quality.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Only if the video is 3 minutes or shorter, which is a pain in the butt. You'd think they would make it at least 6 minutes to accommodate the full length of a For Glory match + sudden death...

 

[Xeze]

Only if the video is 3 minutes or shorter, which is a pain in the butt. You'd think they would make it at least 6 minutes to accommodate the full length of a For Glory match + sudden death...

Whenever the Smash devs announce something awesome, they always find ways to screw it up. Tournament mode is another example.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Yeah, didn't they straight up say special smash would be an option, only for it to actually be just stamina mode? What a huge bummer that ended up being.

 

[Xeze]

Yeah, didn't they straight up say special smash would be an option, only for it to actually be just stamina mode? What a huge bummer that ended up being.

True. And the fact that whenever you create a traditional bracket tourney. Those are always automatic (2 stock, 3 minutes 1v1 lol). And AFAIK you can't save replays from matches in tourney mode. In sum, it sucks.

 

[ZADD]

Yo, this patched added quite a bit of shield/hit stun. Is this the shield tweak we've been asking for? Perhaps this will give burst characters the opportunity to overwhelm shields.

I noticed this is also helpful for baiting a shield for a grab, (Cpt. Falcon or Palutena can B-air > Pivot Grab for example).

As a sidenote... Has anyone else noticed the camera on Super Mario Maker Ω closely resembles the camera from Melee?? It zooms in really close on the action, then zooms out in a more radical fashion than normal. This might be my favorite Omega...

 

[cerealkiller]

Still 0% chances of SLHG online?

 

[nannerham]

Good lord and i thought lucario was dumb before, he literally puts on sheild pressure more than any character. ASC is SUPER dangerous if he catches you in sheild, you either SDI in sheild to escape your doom or your shield breaks. OH BUT THERES MORE, he can catch in a deadly mix up just by dropping his ASC, since you are SDI'ing in sheild he can force you to buffer a roll when drops his charge and he can visibly see which way you are going so he can follow the roll and then stuff with any smash attack of his choice, its absolutely ridiculous.

 

[BlueFury]

First off I hope everyone doing well nice to hear from you all again =)

Lol I understand TheDerp you tried to get this thread some action well you succeeded my boy, Grats !

As for the new patch I think this might help SLHG a little more since you can pressure a little better and punish rolls/tech chase more to because of the slight lowering of invince on rolls (my personal opinion rolls should be slowed down just slightly). Also its crazy how a lot of people (MiiVerse/Youtube etc) asked for shield stun but are complaining about it now that it's here. Goes to show you really can't please everyone, can you?

*sidenote

I think Dark Pit move set should be 2212, It gives him a different feel and gives him more distinction from normal Pit & as for Pit probably 3111, The guidable arrows fit him pretty well. Anyways with these two move sets Dark Pit gets the more power/critical assassin role as Pit gets the swift/speedy strike role. I don't know maybe thats just me lol...

 

[ME GRIMLOCH]

Oh boy customs? We have hit rock bottom bo- I feel like I have said this before hmmm. But seriously we have already experimented with some custom moves before and we decided against it. And that one was just about some heavy's getting better recovery's soooo yeah people are not gonna accept 3 new moves for just because they might work better with the character. If customs ever become the standard for sure we will incorporate them but most people agree default SLHG is fine with exceptions like duck hunt and mega man getting balanced custom recovery's.

 

[BlueFury]

I won't direct this at anybody since my fellow posters don't directly comment, right?
But I think what I said was mistakenly taken the wrong way I know as far as SLHG main format CUSTOMS aren't going to be the main meta just like the vanilla. With that said all I did was give my opinion on a side/for fun set up because I felt that character stood out more that way instead of being a carbon copy clone. My side note was really meant to give my take on a character and wasn't directed toward SLHG hence it being a side note. Since I didn't make it adequately clear what I meant I'll take the blame for it I apologize.

Now with that out the way...I do have a topic we can touch on if that's fine with you all. So with the recent patch being already in play now or whatever. Do you think it may be possible that more shield stun and hit-stun could be added in the future. It's a possibility since things can be patched now, so give me your take on that and where you think sm4sh could be heading towards and the influence that might have on SLHG.

 

[SaturnFrost]

More shield stun in sm4sh is always welcome.

 

[BlueFury]

More shield stun in sm4sh is always welcome.

It might just happen man I mean nobody expected it to come in this patch so it is possible.

 

[ZADD]

 

[nannerham]

No JV? Flagged, disliked, and reported.

 

[BlueFury]

good shidd zadd almost jv4

 

[BlueFury]

Did you guys cover edge guarding options with characters?
That might help catch people new to SLHG or are skeptic about it and they feel like the heavy gravity might lock them down to stage only play.

 

[ZADD]

Ledge trumps get a huge boost naturally, since most characters have difficulty recovering.

I highly recomend practicing your ledge trumps if you want to get consistent kills in SLHG, characters like Peach, Kirby, Pikachu, Capt. Falcon, Falco etc. (Not Fox, he falls too fast and it's dangerous lol)

Its funny, after playing SLHG for more than half a year now, it seems obvious that ledge trump kills (in SLHG) are a true successor to ledge-hogs from Melee. Ledge trumps are a significant tool in SLHG, and the oppurtunity for one comes up multiple times in a match. Learn your character's trump options and practice them, your game will improve a lot if you do.