Meta Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity (SLHG)

[KeithTheGeek]

Is Duck Hunt's positioning there based on him using the default up b? Because I actually think he could be viable if Super Duck Jump was to be standardized. Then we would just have to find people to actually play the character, heh...

Kinda have to second Hobbes on Mewtwo. I'm also not so sure about Samus being as high as she is. I can understand Dark Pit being somewhat worse than Pit but he's still almost identical save for a couple of moves.

There's some others I think may be underrated but I haven't played this enough to give a good enough opinion and I think their positioning could be from a lack of development more than anything else.

 

[ME GRIMLOCH]

(Incoming salty pac-main post) Ya'll need to play pac-man more if you think he is down there with sonic, link and little mac. Also yeah Mewtwo is not very good imo he doesn't even deserve top 30 and Falcon does need to be higher he is pretty good. But like you said it is a first impression the tier list will change over time.

 

[cerealkiller]

Poor Lucina can't catch a break.

I just spoke with Sonic, he says he's not worse than Zelda. He could be lying!

 

[ZADD]

Captain Falcon is absolutely a top 15 at least character and I personally would put him in the top 10. I would also lower Luigi because he can get gimped easy to #10. Bump Mario into top 10, and then probably keep Yoshi the same.

Cpt. Falcon has a terribly susceptible recovery with HG, that is a crippling issue against Pikachu, Meta Knight, and Marth. Unfortunately DI beats almost all of Falcons setups (D-throw in particular), making his game based on reads most of the time. That would still be okay, if the rest of the cast didn't have a plethora of true kill setups to match him. DI is his biggest foe, and at top level play that will always be a defining factor for his losses unfortunately.

I agree that Luigi might be lower due his susceptibility to ganks. I still think Mario lacks enough kill potential to be top 10, I can better imagine an optimized Greninja being top 10 than Mario...

Edit: I have no idea why ya'll are hating on Mewtwo, he can seriously **** you up. Hit the lab with him and practice D-throw > U-smash setups, or Fast-fall N-air into grab...He excels at stage control, his mobility is barely hindered by HG at all. He can string B-air and U-air together almost as good as Marth. Yes, he's floaty and awkward, but imagine a character like that in the hands of Mew2King... I'd pay to see that.

 

[nannerham]

I agree that Luigi might be lower due his susceptibility to ganks.

We leauge now

 

[Levateinn]

was it sposed to be gimps? lel

 

[cerealkiller]

High believe so.

 

[Muro]

was it sposed to be gimps? lel

lmao at post/avatar combination.

High believe so.

high believe you are high.

@ ZADD palutena, doc, falco and mew2 in top 20? bold choices, I'm assuming that's custom palutena? And how does mario kill any worse than shiek or pikachu btw?

 

[ZADD]

@ ZADD palutena, doc, falco and mew2 in top 20? bold choices, I'm assuming that's custom palutena? And how does mario kill any worse than shiek or pikachu btw?

From what has become increasingly clear after playing a LOT of different people in SLHG, it seems that certain moves (ones that have little use in Vanilla) are actually game-changing for many characters in SLHG. Palutena's multi-hit moves have little to no purpose in Vanilla, other than for neutral. However, with HG, multi-hit aerials have the ability to lock and pull an opponent to the ground for an instant followup. Great examples are Pikachu's F-air, Metwo's N-air, Fox's F-air, Samus's U-air, Sheik and Greninja's U-air, and Bowser's N-air (there are a lot more too). Most of the top 10 characters have a move like this, or a similar setup that achieves a kill as a result of implementation. (ZSS stun, or Yoshi's eggs) Mario on the other hand, has hardly any kill setups, if any at all. (Even Doc's D-throw > F-air is a better setup, Mario has nothing like this)

What separates better characters from worse characters in SLHG is not how well they can combo or how safe they are in neutral, it's how confidently can they finish a stock when they need to...? (Ie. guaranteed, rather than based on a read.)

In a game as fast-paced as SLHG, any character can combo or do cool things, that's just the nature of SLHG. You can't define a character on his ability to combo, because EVERY character can combo. What truly defines a character is how much defense their combos allow the victim to live, or better said, how guaranteed is that combo to end with a stock...

Palutena can D-throw into U-smash, or even U-air to kill.
ZSS can stun setup for a kill.
Marth can turn any grab into a kill.
Sheik can F-air > Bouncing Fish.
Luigi has grab setups for days.
Fox can Fast-fall F-air into U-smash or D-smash.
Pikachu can jab lock, or Fast-fall F-air into U-smash
Ike can put you into 50/50's that lead to a kill.
Yoshi can Egg to pretty much any aerial, or U-smash.
Meta Knight can D-throw to Up-B, or even Fast-fall B-air to D-smash.

What does Mario have??? Nothing. The closest thing I can think of is Fast-fall D-air to U-smash, but it doesn't truly link. His kill potential is dependent on the ignorance of the opponent, rather than the prowess of the player. THAT is why he is not top-tier. There ARE Melee players that use read-based characters (Link, DK, Yoshi), but where are those characters on the tier-list? They are behind characters with definitive setups like Marth (Ken combo), Fox (U-throw to U-air), Sheik (D-throw to F-air) or Jiggs (U-air to rest). The truth is, at top top level play, Mario stuggles 100% of the time against players who don't make mistakes! Mario has to repeatedly win the Neutral, as opposed to Marth, who only needs to win the neutral once..

Edit: With this in mind, I expect a huge jump in tiers by characters like Ryu, Greninja, Roy, Shulk, Robin, Kirby, Mega Man, R.O.B.. These characters need to be more fleshed out.

 

[Muro]

Even Doc's D-throw > F-air is a better setup, Mario has nothing like this

d-throw combos at high % d-tilt too. I'm no mario expert so I'm probably missing others.

What separates better characters from worse characters in SLHG is not how well they can combo or how safe they are in neutral, it's how confidently can they finish a stock when they need to?... (Ie. guaranteed, rather than based on a read.)

Absolutely it is. Combo ability is not the same for every character, not even close. Mario not only has plenty of combos, they are easy to implement, that absolutely plays into how good a character he is.

Palutena can D-throw into U-smash, or even U-air to kill.

Too bad her grab is crap. And are those true combos? Or DI dependent?

Marth can turn any grab into a kill.

No he can't, not even close. And as far as combos are concerned, he's got nothing on mario.

Fox can Fast-fall F-air into U-smash or D-smash.

yeah, but his fair has weirdly inconsistent hitboxes, and it still requires the opponent to miss a tech. short hop dair, dash attack down and up tilt are much better kill setups.

Pikachu can jab lock, or Fast-fall F-air into U-smash

If we're listing trivial stuff like that then mario can nair to d smash. And any (or most) character can jab lock.

Ike can put you into 50/50's that lead to a kill.

Heh no he can't, not at kill %.

Meta Knight can D-throw to Up-B, or even Fast-fall B-air to D-smash.

At what % does that kill? Is it unavoidable? I don't have much mk experience but he seems like an average character.

Like I said, I don't think mario is any worse at killing than other top tiers like shiek and pikachu. I don't play mario to know all his setups, but I did play pikachu and killing with him outside of gimps is not that easy. He has a great edgeguarding game, but no horizontal sending moves. Mario at least has a d-smash which sends horizontally and he can combo into it from nair on a grounded opponent. Meanwhile he can keep throwing **** at you and be safe as hell. He has all the qualities of a top tier and it's kinda baffling how you put him so close to the likes of palutena and mew2.

 

[nannerham]

Thanks to wonderfuly limited replay system i can show silly lucario stuff

This is just showing that lucarios combo game ridiculous at low percents considering he has so many setups into his grab, its hard to show off because even at lower lvls cpus have frame perfect reactions so sorry if it looks sloppy.

Sweet jesus he is absolutely absurd with aura, if he grabs you at a reasonable percent you die and thats not hard since as previously stated he has plenty of grab setups.

My stance on lucario is he's somewhere in top 20, at low percents he can combo you for days off of one grab, when he has aura he has no trouble ending stocks and has an incredibly deadly kill confirm, he can edgegaurd thanks to his fantastic recovery, aura sphere is incredibly versitile and damaging and his aerials are very safe to throw out (except bair.) His biggest flaws are if he loses stocks early it can be difficult for him to comeback and his overall movement speed is pretty mediocre.

 

[ZADD]

d-throw combos at high % d-tilt too. I'm no mario expert so I'm probably missing others.
Absolutely it is. Combo ability is not the same for every character, not even close. Mario not only has plenty of combos, they are easy to implement, that absolutely plays into how good a character he is.
Too bad her grab is crap. And are those true combos? Or DI dependent?
No he can't, not even close. And as far as combos are concerned, he's got nothing on mario.
yeah, but his fair has weirdly inconsistent hitboxes, and it still requires the opponent to miss a tech. short hop dair, dash attack down and up tilt are much better kill setups.
If we're listing trivial stuff like that then mario can nair to d smash. And any (or most) character can jab lock.
Heh no he can't, not at kill %.
At what % does that kill? Is it unavoidable? I don't have much mk experience but he seems like an average character.

-Combo ability doesn't mean anything if the opponent can recover, start a combo, then kill you with it. You will continue to struggle.
-Palutena's grab is incredible dude. Her shield grab range is ridiculous, and you can easily hit confirm a grab from a quick jab.
-Dude you need to face a good Marth for real, he is one of the deadliest characters in the whole roster. Accidental tipper F-air kills lol
-Fair isnt inconsistent at all, you just need to figure out how it works. If you SH F-air, but don't fast-fall, it pops the opponent literally right above you. If you use it mid-combo, make sure you land before your opponent hits the ground. That way, you intercept the tech entirely and continue your combo! You can even cover you F-air when you land with a jab or grab to make it safe.
-Mario is still #11 out of 54. He is top of B-tiers which is still 100% viable.
-Ike can kill at like 60% from a 50/50. Not my fault you let your opponent live that long...
-Yea, D-throw > U-air > Up-B is always unavoidble (except jiggs i think). It always combos for high damage, but it kills around 140%

 

[cerealkiller]

I sure am nothing close to a real good Marth but still, turning any grab into a kill... sound very doubtful.
I mean the Dthrow connects better and all but from that to getting a kill from any of them I really have to see how that's done.

 

[BlueFury]

lol though a lot of what you all have said is plausible when discussing the characters strengths and weaknesses and other things, it boils down to how the player uses the character and the knowledge one has of that character. Yes I know " If it's a fighting game, there's gonna be a tier list, " I understand that and all the reasonings behind such things but it doesn't negate the fact that skill wins all regardless.

I think it's still a bit to early to judge characters now in SLHG because there's still things even we don't know yet. We really need people like maybe smash corner, the beefy smash doods, or even a pro player like ZeRo or something to dive deep in it and really pull out all the juiciness SLHG has to offer and with that there is still new discoveries surfacing for the vanilla side. Also I honestly doubt every possible true combo and/or string has been discovered for SLHG yet. I'm still finding things and even then some moves are getting changed or tweaked so nothing's permanent as of yet. So guys it's too soon for a tier list or an official SLHG tier list anyway.

On the bright side I do love this mode wish we get some momentum for it somehow and you all seem very sharp when it comes to percentages and such, I'm still new to the competitive tournament play style but I'm picking up things as I go.

Heres a match I had with one of our best Smash 4 players. He really wanted to see what Little Mac was like here and it is terrifying...

And this match. This was his first time playing SLHG and he got really salty when I showed him what was up.

@ ArtfulHobbes
1st. vid

Man that guy's Little Mac was so on point, I wonder if he really could pull out more of Mac's devastating setups and what not.

2nd. vid

lmao I died when I read your youtube description, art you can't do people like that xD

 

[ZADD]

I think it's still a bit to early to judge characters now in SLHG because there's still things even we don't know yet. We really need people like maybe smash corner, the beefy smash doods, or even a pro player like ZeRo or something to dive deep in it and really pull out all the juiciness SLHG has to offer

I agree 100%, I'm honestly just trying to get th ball rolling in SLHG's development, so we can truly define what separates SLHG from Vanilla from an objective standpoint.

Fast-falling multi-hit aerials, in conjuction with true footstool setups, is a huge step in the right direction IMO. This mechanic is unique to SLHG in efficiency, and when fleshed out, we could have another Melee on our hands boys. Characters have the ability to 0-death reliably again, and it's just way too fun/awesome to ignore! A brand new meta-game of similar complexity/depth to Melee, with a whole new engine, and a new set of tools to capitalize on and mess with. Where Vanilla Sm4sh limits, SLHG enables...

Vanilla Sm4sh was and is an absolutely impeccable template for customization, and I truly believe that was Sakurai's intended vision. (Not a wholy balanced roster/meta-game from the get-go, but instead a balanced system and engine that allowed for direct manipulation by the players.) Brilliant.

Edit:

I sure am nothing close to a real good Marth but still, turning any grab into a kill... sound very doubtful.
I mean the Dthrow connects better and all but from that to getting a kill from any of them I really have to see how that's done.

It just takes practice. It takes the perfect combination of U-air and U-tilt to take someone from 0-death. If you land too many UP moves, and don't shift the combo towards a tipper, d-air, or edgeguard... you will struggle to land a kill for sure, so do it sooner rather than later. At higher %'s, D-throw true combos into Tipper B-air (which kills as well). There is so much maximization to be done with Marth's D-throw, I highly suggest you experiment..

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Man that guy's Little Mac was so on point, I wonder if he really could pull out more of Mac's devastating setups and what not.

You mean... like this?

 

[KeithTheGeek]

All of this discussion is really making me want to pick this up again...too bad we can't play online.

A quick question for those that introduced this to their communities: How did you go about (or what would the best way to do it be?) and what was the reception generally like? I've been thinking about just setting it up for friendlies next time I'm at the weekly I go to but I'm not sure how willing people are going to be to try it while a tournament for vSmash 4 is going on. I personally have difficulty switching between the two without a day or so in between, I imagine it'd be the same for most smashers.

 

[nannerham]

Lol i was messing around with D3 and figured out something silly against fox. If you dthrow at 0% then immediately side b both the hammer and gordo hit fox then it launches him behind D3 which you can follow up ith a bair and it does 53% altogether, it even works when you have moderate rage.

 

[ZADD]

A quick question for those that introduced this to their communities: How did you go about (or what would the best way to do it be?) and what was the reception generally like?

For me, It took not only an explanation of WHY I play SLHG, but also an explanation of what SLHG represents. It's important to let the other players know you come from the same place (One-unit), and to describe SLHG in relation to the strengths of Melee/PM. It's much more important however, to explain what fundamental/objective improvements it can give to Sm4sh.

-The physics are just like Melee, but the tech is all Sm4sh. (Footstools, ledge-trumps, Multi-hit moves)
-Follow-ups are guaranteed, rather than based on reads.
-L-cancels are back, and without the hand cramps this time!
-The Tier-list of the roster is completely mixed up, so any character is viable at this point.
-Explain how to set up SLHG, but don't hesitate to mention how easy it is to unlock.

Reception is always mixed at first, but honestly the gameplay speaks for itself. Even players who didn't like the concept initially ended up playing it and having a good time. All in all, this is as serious of a game-mode as you present it. If you portray it as a fun little side-thing, then no one takes you, or it seriously. You need to play people that are better than you and BODY THEM. Trust me, they'll take notice and want to do the same to you...

 

[BlueFury]

I agree 100%, I'm honestly just trying to get th ball rolling in SLHG's development, so we can truly define what separates SLHG from Vanilla from an objective standpoint.

Fast-falling multi-hit aerials, in conjuction with true footstool setups, is a huge step in the right direction IMO. This mechanic is unique to SLHG in efficiency, and when fleshed out, we could have another Melee on our hands boys. Characters have the ability to 0-death reliably again, and it's just way too fun/awesome to ignore! A brand new meta-game of similar complexity/depth to Melee, with a whole new engine, and a new set of tools to capitalize on and mess with. Where Vanilla Sm4sh limits, SLHG enables...

Vanilla Sm4sh was and is an absolutely impeccable template for customization, and I truly believe that was Sakurai's intended vision. (Not a wholy balanced roster/meta-game from the get-go, but instead a balanced system and engine that allowed for direct manipulation by the players.) Brilliant.

Edit:

It just takes practice. It takes the perfect combination of U-air and U-tilt to take someone from 0-death. If you land too many UP moves, and don't shift the combo towards a tipper, d-air, or edgeguard... you will struggle to land a kill for sure, so do it sooner rather than later. At higher %'s, D-throw true combos into Tipper B-air (which kills as well). There is so much maximization to be done with Marth's D-throw, I highly suggest you experiment..

@ ZADD Okay I see and your correct this has nearly almost endless potential currently to be on par or at least close to melee, so yea I agree fully. Well put btw.

You mean... like this?

@ ArtfulHobbes ahh...(looks at the vid) yea yea lol something like that xD

 

[TheDerp]

Sonic would definitely be bottom at tier list. Things are self-explanatory.

Have you considered JigglyPuff in the top 20? She's completely crazy with her up tilts and up airs, to finish off with a Rest.
Also with herself being one of the lightest she has a superior chance of escaping combos with good DI compared to the rest of the cast.

 

[ZADD]

Have you considered JigglyPuff in the top 20? She's completely crazy with her up tilts and up airs, to finish off with a Rest.
Also with herself being one of the lightest she has a superior chance of escaping combos with good DI compared to the rest of the cast.

I play so much Jiggs, and I win a lot too. She is still so very unsafe on block. dies way too damn early, same with

 

[Hyper_Kirby]

Mario doesn't have crazy kill set ups but the fact that he can spam safe up smashes in the neutral makes him reall good. Not only that, he has way more combos then doc, but Doc combos can kill much earlier. I don't think Mario needs kill setups. After playing a fellow crew member, Dark Wizzy (Arguably the best Mario main in the world) I was suprised to see how safe mario is. Though I prefer doc any day tbh.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Sonic would definitely be bottom at tier list. Things are self-explanatory.

I beg to disagree sir. While yeah his recovery vertically got much worse, he did get the added benefit of rapid firing springs off the stage to gimp people recovering from below. And even then, Side-B > Double jump > Spring works from decently far away.
We also have to keep in mind that Sonic's combo game in this mode is completely untapped. We don't know Sonics crazy potential but given that he has the fastest ground speed in the game, I expect his on-stage game to be pretty good. I'm not making any guesses as to Sonic's position on the tier list until we get some really good Sonic footage.

 

[ZADD]

We also have to keep in mind that Sonic's combo game in this mode is completely untapped. We don't know Sonics crazy potential but given that he has the fastest ground speed in the game

I agree, he isn't the worst character by a long shot. Still, with his limited recovery I don't see a possibility of him being above C-tier.

Sonic is super flashy imo. I've done F-throw > F-air, and was fast enough to catch my opponent before he hit the ground! Not saying it's 100% viable, but seriously Sonic can Alley-oop to himself...

 

[BlueFury]

I beg to disagree sir. While yeah his recovery vertically got much worse, he did get the added benefit of rapid firing springs off the stage to gimp people recovering from below. And even then, Side-B > Double jump > Spring works from decently far away.
We also have to keep in mind that Sonic's combo game in this mode is completely untapped. We don't know Sonics crazy potential but given that he has the fastest ground speed in the game, I expect his on-stage game to be pretty good. I'm not making any guesses as to Sonic's position on the tier list until we get some really good Sonic footage.

I agree, he isn't the worst character by a long shot. Still, with his limited recovery I don't see a possibility of him being above C-tier.

Sonic is super flashy imo. I've done F-throw > F-air, and was fast enough to catch my opponent before he hit the ground! Not saying it's 100% viable, but seriously Sonic can Alley-oop to himself...

I agree with them as well, Sonic being already fast gains more speed in this mode. So if we find a good to pro level sonic to really pull out his potential then there's no knowing how deadly he can become. I honestly feel his speed boost in this mode helps him further to having better approach options along with his aerials and same goes for diddy as well with his speed and such. They both gain a lot from this mode with the cost of their recovery...lol

 

[Muro]

Also the spring shenanigans onstage look cool as ****. Really wish I could play that character but he's kinda weird to me.

 

[nannerham]

Olimar is kinda boring me so ill put some time into sonic and ill post a vid if i find anything interesting.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Hey guys! I'm going to be in a big smash tournament the next few days. Pools are starting 2 and a half hours from this post. We're having Melee, Project M, and Smash 4. Including some big names like Nairo! You can check it out here:
twitch.tv/edmontongamers
twitch.tv/ssbuniversity (the one that will be exclusively smash)

Hopefully, I'll see if I can get Nairo playing a few games of SLHG. A guy can hope.

 

[ZADD]

Hopefully, I'll see if I can get Nairo playing a few games of SLHG. A guy can hope.

Ask him for a money-match, I'll reimburse you.

And Good Luck!

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Ask him for a money-match, I'll reimburse you.

And Good Luck!

Thanks man! I just made it out of PM pools. Didn't make it out of Melee, and Smash 4 is tba.
Also... I asked Nairo and he said he heard of SLHG but he never played it. He also said he'd try it. WE GOT IT BOYZ. I'll post video.

 

[BlueFury]

Good news to hear looks like SLHG might be put on the map if Nairo likes it (don't see why he wouldn't though lol).

 

[Muro]

Heh there's still a difference between saying it and doing it, but still cool he showed interest.

And good luck with the rest of the tourny man

Edit: maybe I read it wrong. Do you mean he'll try it out later at home or you're actually gonna play him now?

 

[TheDerp]

Do you think we could have a Webpage about this? Or would that be a little over the top?

 

[Muro]

I dunno what we'd put there honestly. But if you have some idea you're better off coordinating with @Reserved since he's been working on a new thread.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

te="Muro, post: 20035538, member: 143437"]Heh there's still a difference between saying it and doing it, but still cool he showed interest.

And good luck with the rest of the tourny man

Edit: maybe I read it wrong. Do you mean he'll try it out later at home or you're actually gonna play him now?[/quote]
Didn't make it out of Smash 4 pools because of a campy ass villager that 2'0d th whole pool including our top seed. I need a secondary for that character.
And I set up my SLHG set up snd a few people came to play and they enjoyed it.
Top 32 PM tomorrow and doubles.

 

[Hyper_Kirby]

te="Muro, post: 20035538, member: 143437"]Heh there's still a difference between saying it and doing it, but still cool he showed interest.

And good luck with the rest of the tourny man

Edit: maybe I read it wrong. Do you mean he'll try it out later at home or you're actually gonna play him now?

Didn't make it out of Smash 4 pools because of a campy *** villager that 2'0d th whole pool including our top seed. I need a secondary for that character.
And I set up my SLHG set up snd a few people came to play and they enjoyed it.
Top 32 PM tomorrow and doubles.[/quote]

Everyone needs to secondary a projectile character. I have way to many characters who I can bust out in high level play. But darn man, fighting Villager is definitely the worst.
Also ita great to see people still enjoying SLHG. I hope Nairo got a chance to try it out along side the top level players in your community

 

[Muro]

Didn't make it out of Smash 4 pools because of a campy *** villager that 2'0d th whole pool including our top seed. I need a secondary for that character.
And I set up my SLHG set up snd a few people came to play and they enjoyed it.
Top 32 PM tomorrow and doubles.

Ah that sucks. Well at least you're still in PM.

Btw, is ally attending?

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Ah that sucks. Well at least you're still in PM.

Btw, is ally attending?

Ally was supposed to... but he had issues at the border and couldn't make it. Poor guy... I really wanted a picture too.

Also, ssbuniversity may not be in use. Try here instead if you wanna watch: twitch.tv/anjosmash
Edmontongamers should still be good though.

 

[Muro]

Ally was supposed to... but he had issues at the border and couldn't make it. Poor guy... I really wanted a picture too.

Also, ssbuniversity may not be in use. Try here instead if you wanna watch: twitch.tv/anjosmash
Edmontongamers should still be good though.

That's too bad. I heard he's not a big fan of the current metagame, he'd probably like slhg.