Smashchu's Roster Analysis

[Neanderthal]

And there's no reason to believe a character being included as a favor wasn't a one-time deal.

There's no reason to believe anything isn't a one time deal. The fact is the precedent has been set.

The criteria for third-parties getting in this time around will be stricter, and frankly, I think if either third-party character from Brawl gets cut, it'll be Snake. He has flimsy reasoning for being in the game, and Pac-Man's reasoning isn't really much stronger.

Mega Man is a better and far likelier choice for a third-party rep than Pac-Man, I feel, and there are even other Namco characters who would be better choices than the yellow ball.


Also, I'd love to see Sora in this game, though I'd much rather have Roxas, even as a costume.

All just your opinion I guess.
But you could almost as easily argue that they might be MORE open to third parties this time.
They have competition this time with Playstation All Stars (who used an almost entirely third party cast) which could encourage them into getting their hands on certain 3rd parties before Sony does!

 

[Curious Villager]

So long as the third party newcomers they use are Megaman and Layton I'll be happy. I don't want to see too many third parties though.

 

[peeup]

Important question that I should already know the answer to:

Has Namco made any statements about wanting a character of theirs represented?

 

[FalKoopa]

Important question that I should already know the answer to:

Has Namco made any statements about wanting a character of theirs represented?

We have heard some statements about a "Tales of" character and a Tekken character, but curiously nothing about Pac-Man.

 

[peeup]

Oh word. Then I shall return to throwing my support to Heihachi.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

5 out of 24 isn't most of the cast but I know what you're talking about. In fact I think PSASBR should've had more third party. Bring back Lara Croft and Cloud from Square Enix and Crash Bandicoot and Spyro from Activision. Who's the nincompoop who took them from Insomniac and Naughty Dog anyway?

 

[volbound1700]

If you are going to talk about Megaman's chances for Smash 4, please include the MOST RELEVANT note about him that Sakurai made a comment about a potential Capcom character being in the game.

To me that speaks volumes but apparently everyone in here throws that under the bus for some reason.

As for the "wily-nily" comment. It appears to me based on the context of the entire sentence that Sakurai is saying he cannot add a character on the whim because it takes negotiation, development, and time. THERE IS NO INDICATION OF NUMBER OF CHARACTERS TO BE ADDED OR THAT HE WILL CUT THIRD PARTIES IN GENERAL. He is simple saying it is a difficult process to add them.

I still stand by my four: Pac-Man, Megaman, Snake, and Sonic. I think another Namco or Sonic character is possible along with maybe Professor Layton. Do not see anyone outside of that group to be honest.

However, there could always be a surprise out there. We don't know what is going on and who approached Sakurai about Smash. If Konami states they want Simon Belmont in the game and Sakurai likes him, heck Sakurai could add him if there is development time.

The Key issue for not just third party but any character is the time to develop them. That is the biggest factor that hurts anyones chances.

 

[AnOkayDM]

There's no reason to believe anything isn't a one time deal. The fact is the precedent has been set.

Okay. I disagree.
Snake sure as hell doesn't fit into Smash. He was in specifically as a favor. Why would that happen again? Literally the only reason anyone thinks a Namco character is a possibility is because they're partly developing the game. That's a weak reason for inclusion. I think favor characters will be limited to Snake, and will do so until someone convinces me otherwise.

All just your opinion I guess.But you could almost as easily argue that they might be MORE open to third parties this time.They have competition this time with Playstation All Stars (who used an almost entirely third party cast) which could encourage them into getting their hands on certain 3rd parties before Sony does!

Or they could keep Smash as pure as possible, add important third-parties, and keep the rest of the cast Nintendo? I support third-party characters, but not many. The percentage of third-parties in PSASBR was embarrassing considering it was s'posed to be a Sony fighting game, and I don't want that happening to Smash.

Plus Sakurai has said he doesn't wanna toss in lots of third-party characters.

 

[volbound1700]

Okay. I disagree.
Snake sure as hell doesn't fit into Smash. He was in specifically as a favor. Why would that happen again? Literally the only reason anyone thinks a Namco character is a possibility is because they're partly developing the game. That's a weak reason for inclusion. I think favor characters will be limited to Snake, and will do so until someone convinces me otherwise..

Here is my problem with your logic. If a famous third-party character is available for the game and would generate hype. (a la the company wants their character in Smash). Why not add the character if you have the time?

In my view it is more based on timing and ability to add the character than anything. Snake and Sonic were added not just for those reasons listed but also because they could be added. SEGA and Konami were on board and contrary to some opinions I have heard, I doubt Nintendo paid them for rights to use the character. More than likely, the characters were added without payment as SEGA and Konami were happy with the publicity they created (the creater of MGS wanted him in anyways). Obviously the teams that assisted in making the characters probably got paid but that wasn't payment for the characters itself but rather the development.

It would be very easy to add Pac-man and Pac-man would bring something to the game, than they will add him. If Snake is still available for players to choose him a game and as he has already added something to Smash, why cut him?

 

[AnOkayDM]

You misunderstand. I don't think Snake will be cut. I think he's likelier to be cut than Sonic, but I think he'll be staying.

I just don't see Pac-Man adding anything to the game. I also don't see any legitimate support for him, no one truly asking for him rather than merely expecting him. People think he'll be in because of Namco's partnership, but no one has been clamoring for his inclusion. He doesn't have much real support, he wouldn't add much to the game, and he wouldn't really generate all that much hype. Frankly, he would be in for little more reason than as a favor, and I don't see another favor character being added.

There are way better characters from Namco to put in--characters that fit into Smash better, are more interesting, are more important to Nintendo, or all of the above. Hell, the same goes for Konami (a Castlevania representative would fit much better and be far more important to Nintendo than Snake). And that's why I neither want nor find Pac-Man likely.

 

[peeup]

Okay. I disagree.
Snake sure as hell doesn't fit into Smash. He was in specifically as a favor. Why would that happen again?

Seeing as third parties (including Snake) have only been in one game, there is no trend we can follow regarding to third parties. No precedent has been set as to how guest characters are treated, or if they are really guest characters at all. Speculate all you want, there is absolutely zero evidence for either the keeping or the cutting of third parties.

 

[AnOkayDM]

I don't think either of them will be cut. Which I've said. Many times.

 

[Neanderthal]

Okay. I disagree.
Snake sure as hell doesn't fit into Smash. He was in specifically as a favor. Why would that happen again?

I'm not saying it has to. But the precedent has been set. We now know that it can happen.

Literally the only reason anyone thinks a Namco character is a possibility is because they're partly developing the game. That's a weak reason for inclusion. I think favor characters will be limited to Snake, and will do so until someone convinces me otherwise.

I think it's a really really really strong reason. They are developing the game for gods sake.
Alot stronger than Sakurai being good mates with Kojima who's son wanted Snake....

Or they could keep Smash as pure as possible, add important third-parties, and keep the rest of the cast Nintendo? I support third-party characters, but not many. The percentage of third-parties in PSASBR was embarrassing considering it was s'posed to be a Sony fighting game, and I don't want that happening to Smash.

Plus Sakurai has said he doesn't wanna toss in lots of third-party characters.

I don't think he would consider 3 as "lots". What PSA did was "lots".

 

[AnOkayDM]

I'm not saying it has to. But the precedent has been set. We now know that it can happen.

That still doesn't mean it will. From Melee to Brawl Sakurai added two Kirby characters. He also gave three Star Fox characters the same Final Smash. The precedent has been set, but there's no real reason for it to happen again.

I think it's a really really really strong reason. They are developing the game for gods sake.
Alot stronger than Sakurai being good mates with Kojima who's son wanted Snake....

But it's not.
Sakurai's company also developed Kid Icarus: Uprising. Thus, the company created such characters as Dark Pit and Magnus. It also created Tabuu. But we're not gonna see any of those characters in the game.

They're developing the game. So what? There is literally no reason to believe Namco will get special treatment for a character who otherwise has almost nothing going for him.

I don't necessarily doubt a Namco character, but I don't think one will get in based on anything more than his or her own merit. You really think Sakurai asked for help and they said "only if we can put Pac-Man in"?

Sakurai's humble with his own characters, and there's no reason to believe he won't extend that sentiment to his development team. Especially when a character adds nothing to the game.

I don't think he would consider 3 as "lots". What PSA did was "lots".

I would consider anything more than four excessive, and I think Sakurai would agree. People thought we'd get three at least in Brawl. We got two, and one of them wasn't planned at first. I doubt there'll be more than two new ones, and I doubt Pac-Man will be important enough to get a slot.

 

[Neanderthal]

That still doesn't mean it will. From Melee to Brawl Sakurai added two Kirby characters. He also gave three Star Fox characters the same Final Smash. The precedent has been set, but there's no real reason for it to happen again.

You're making me repeat myself. I didn't say this means that it will. I said it means that it can.

But it's not.
Sakurai's company also developed Kid Icarus: Uprising. Thus, the company created such characters as Dark Pit and Magnus. It also created Tabuu. But we're not gonna see any of those characters in the game.

They're developing the game. So what? There is literally no reason to believe Namco will get special treatment for a character who otherwise has almost nothing going for him.

I don't necessarily doubt a Namco character, but I don't think one will get in based on anything more than his or her own merit. You really think Sakurai asked for help and they said "only if we can put Pac-Man in"?

Sakurai's humble with his own characters, and there's no reason to believe he won't extend that sentiment to his development team. Especially when a character adds nothing to the game.

This is alot of bias reasoning.
It may be your opinion that Pac would add nothing to the game. But alot of people disagree with you.

There is plenty of reason to think that Namco may receive special treatment in having one representative.
Just look at Mariokart GP which Namco worked on:

Another reason being that alot of the legal huff and puff is removed due to existing contracts for co-development of the game.

I would consider anything more than four excessive, and I think Sakurai would agree. People thought we'd get three at least in Brawl. We got two, and one of them wasn't planned at first. I doubt there'll be more than two new ones, and I doubt Pac-Man will be important enough to get a slot.

Again, little more than personal bias about his importance.

 

[AnOkayDM]

You're making me repeat myself. I didn't say this means that it will. I said it means that it can.

Okay, I'll repeat myself.

I don't think it will.

This is alot of bias reasoning.
It may be your opinion that Pac would add nothing to the game. But alot of people disagree with you.

Really? What would he add? He wouldn't have an interesting moveset, few people actually seem to want him, and he's not important to Nintendo's history. At least Snake brought something new to the table, moves-wise.

There is plenty of reason to think that Namco may receive special treatment in having one representative.
Just look at Mariokart GP which Namco worked on:

Right. An odd, not console-based Mario Kart is totally in the same league as the biggest Smash Bros. yet. Because everyone cares what characters make it in to Mario Kart.

Another reason being that alot of the legal huff and puff is removed due to existing contracts for co-development of the game.

Legal arguments are bull. Sakurai could get anyone he wanted for Smash Bros. Nintendo would pay as much as he needed. Assuming money changes hands at all.

Again, little more than personal bias about his importance.

Nope. He's not important to Nintendo.

At all.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Pac-Man actually wasn't all that bad in his SFxT appearence

Granted, I'd easily prefer a Tales Of character or Klonoa.

 

[AnOkayDM]

What was he like?

 

[Neanderthal]

Really? What would he add? He wouldn't have an interesting moveset, few people actually seem to want him, and he's not important to Nintendo's history. At least Snake brought something new to the table, moves-wise.

What would any character add?
Rather arbitrary question.

His moveset would be unique. I apologise if it wouldn't be "interesting" to you, but to others it would.

Pac-Man may not be one of the most demanded characters on this board. But he is one of the most popular gaming characters amongst casuals. Not every character addition will be aimed at us. Some are for the casuals.

Right. An odd, not console-based Mario Kart is totally in the same league as the biggest Smash Bros. yet. Because everyone cares what characters make it in to Mario Kart.

You're splitting hairs.
It's in actual fact a very similar situation.
I'm not sure what console it is on or how popular a game is changes anything.

Legal arguments are bull. Sakurai could get anyone he wanted for Smash Bros. Nintendo would pay as much as he needed. Assuming money changes hands at all.

The money is probably a small consideration. The months of legal back and forth needed to aquire the rights is what Sakurai has alluded to hating about third parties. This is apparently what happened with Sonic and is why he was such a late addition.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YolNPb4zGzY Not the best video but it's shotr and gives you an idea

Granted he was in a robot (I'm going to play Pac-Man World 3 soon and it's been years since I've beat 2) but it's actually kinda cool. His moveset replicated a few characters moves but with an interesting spin. Honestly I still stand by a Tales Of or Klonoa character, but he does add stuff.

 

[AnOkayDM]

What would any character add?
Rather arbitrary question.

Nice dodge.

His moveset would be unique. I apologise if it wouldn't be "interesting" to you, but to others it would.

Okay, if you say so. They wouldn't put him in a mech, I don't think, so how would he fight uniquely?

Pac-Man may not be one of the most demanded characters on this board. But he is one of the most popular gaming characters amongst casuals. Not every character addition will be aimed at us. Some are for the casuals.

I've never even heard of the vast majority of Pac-Man games. Either way, the casuals don't go online to show their support for a character.

You're splitting hairs.
It's in actual fact a very similar situation.
I'm not sure what console it is on or how popular a game is changes anything.

It's really not though.
No one gives a damn what characters are in Mario Kart. They all essentially play the same. And no one gets hyped for a new arcade Mario Kart. You can't buy it; you pay fifty cents to play it and there's not much replay value because you don't own the thing.

Smash Bros. is one of Nintendo's biggest franchises though. Its arrival sells systems. And characters get added because people actually care. They play differently and make people excited to play as them.

It's not at all the same situation.

The money is probably a small consideration. The months of legal back and forth needed to aquire the rights is what Sakurai has alluded to hating about third parties. This is apparently what happened with Sonic and is why he was such a late addition.

Okay, that's reasonable, and I can see that being eased by partnership in development, but I still don't think it matters as much as other factors.

 

[peeup]

I don't think either of them will be cut. Which I've said. Many times.

Ahh, my bad. Misunderstood who you were referring to. Guess we were having a violent agreement.

So here's my final thought. If Namco was brought on after the roster was decided, then I think the only likely third party candidate would be Mega Man. Even that I don't think will happen, but I certainly won't say it can't happen. Pac-Man is a possibility, but only if Sakurai really wants to milk the nostalgia card that he played in Brawl (Mario Bros and 75m stages), but that's a loooooong shot. If Namco was brought on before the roster was decided, then I think Pac-Man, Heihachi, or a Tales character all have equal shots, and not too slim shots either. And because of that, Mega Man would have less of a chance. Still not zero chance tho.

Parting note: I think Robotnik/Eggman, Tails, or Shadow will be playable. Probably not another Metal Gear character though.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Namco was probably brought on at the beginning of development, at least a few employee's, and it makes sense with all the timings of the announcements and many of Namco's devs being taken to work on Smash 4 (Along with the many hirings before that). There's no way in hell you would start a game and then go "Oh, let's add another company after doing like, 50% of the work" in a crossover. That just doesn't happen.

 

[peeup]

I kinda figured, but I know next to nothing about the industry so I figured I'd rather sound vague than stupid.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I kinda figured, but I know next to nothing about the industry so I figured I'd rather sound vague than stupid.

It's okay, there's even some stuff I don't know about the industry and I'm probably one of the most knowledgeable people on this board when it comes to game development, general project management, and game history.

edit: Also they wouldn't be talking about a Tekken or Tales Of character if it were out of the question entirely. Though one scenario that's possible is they just don't bother to ask or something of that sorts happens. I wouldn't be surprised either way.

Also Pac-Man's design is still pretty fighter-esque in SFxT even without the mech. http://www.fightersgeneration.com/nx/game/sfxt/sfxtekken-pacman.jpg IIRC he even has one of those red things on-top of his head that fighters have like Toro and Kuro have in SFxT

 

[AnOkayDM]

Ahh, my bad. Misunderstood who you were referring to. Guess we were having a violent agreement.

So it would seem. =P

So here's my final thought. If Namco was brought on after the roster was decided, then I think the only likely third party candidate would be Mega Man. Even that I don't think will happen, but I certainly won't say it can't happen. Pac-Man is a possibility, but only if Sakurai really wants to milk the nostalgia card that he played in Brawl (Mario Bros and 75m stages), but that's a loooooong shot. If Namco was brought on before the roster was decided, then I think Pac-Man, Heihachi, or a Tales character all have equal shots, and not too slim shots either. And because of that, Mega Man would have less of a chance. Still not zero chance tho.

Fair enough. I still disagree about the partnership making a Namco character much likelier, but I don't discount the possibility entirely.

Parting note: I think Robotnik/Eggman, Tails, or Shadow will be playable. Probably not another Metal Gear character though.

Hmm, interesting. I don't think a third-party series will get a second playable character though. Unless it's from a different series (e.g. Konami gets Snake and a Castlevania rep).

Namco was probably brought on at the beginning of development, at least a few employee's, and it makes sense with all the timings of the announcements and many of Namco's devs being taken to work on Smash 4 (Along with the many hirings before that). There's no way in hell you would start a game and then go "Oh, let's add another company after doing like, 50% of the work" in a crossover. That just doesn't happen.

Nah, I don't think they were brought in halfway through. I do think Sakurai started thinking about the roster well before development actually began though, and probably settled on large parts of it.

 

[Deleted member]

Namco was probably brought on at the beginning of development, at least a few employee's, and it makes sense with all the timings of the announcements and many of Namco's devs being taken to work on Smash 4 (Along with the many hirings before that). There's no way in hell you would start a game and then go "Oh, let's add another company after doing like, 50% of the work" in a crossover. That just doesn't happen.

Considering negotiations, I would say so. However, considering that Sakurai still has the final word on what third-parties he'll allow and that I don't see him adding a Namco character just because, I don't really see Namco Bandai working with Sakurai as news in regards to characters.

Also they wouldn't be talking about a Tekken or Tales Of character if it were out of the question entirely. Though one scenario that's possible is they just don't bother to ask or something of that sorts happens. I wouldn't be surprised either way.

Wouldn't the fact that the Tales producer was talking about a Tales character being in Smash kind of indicate that a Namco character hadn't been added in yet as of that time? I mean, if they had already included a Namco character (whenever that is Pac-Man or a Tales rep), I don't think they would be speaking about a Namco rep in fears of letting it slip.

What I'm saying is, considering that the roster was likely decided before development started, I doubt a Namco rep was part of the deal with Namco and Sakurai when they decided to collaborate. Since Sakurai has gone on the record to state that adding characters after development has started is much harder to do, it only strengthens my doubt of one getting in. That being said, it's still a possibility and if there were to be one, I would bet more on a Tales rep than anything given that it's the only franchise to be graced with interest (at least from what we know).

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Nah, I don't think they were brought in halfway through. I do think Sakurai started thinking about the roster well before development actually began though, and probably settled on large parts of it.

Well of course; I'm even writing a plot for a game right now while working with four people on another game, so that happens easily. The fact that at least a good portion of the staff is returning and this time around there's a lot more on production management (Not to be an offense, but Sakurai's far more of a visionary than the other producers) probably means that the roster was thought about, but probably not any characters developed. I wouldn't say large parts of it, but likely a good chunk was already thrown around as they went through Nintendo's line-up and history once more.

Considering negotiations, I would say so. However, considering that Sakurai still has the final word on what third-parties he'll allow and that I don't see him adding a Namco character just because, I don't really see Namco Bandai working with Sakurai as news in regards to characters.

Uh, that is news, especially since they could be in-charge of even more than 50%. Every crossover before has shown us that it's news. Nobody realistically even thought of Namco before the announcement. They wouldn't add one just for the sake of adding one, and thankfully Namco has many relevant characters. I'd hardly say a Tekken character, Klonoa, Pac-Man, or a Tales Of would be off-shot considering I saw all of those four requested even back in the days of Brawl before Sonic was confirmed.

Though especially since third-parties are such a gray area, it isn't 100%, and it's never 100% in any game. Many of the music conductors were from Square when it comes to both PSABR (or another fighting game I can't remember gah) and Brawl: Guess what didn't happen.

The other thing is we don't know fully what Namco is on yet, but considering after Brawl a lot of Sora LTD was cut or quit, it's probably more than we think. I just hope Namco's doing the online and one of Ninetndo's other producers is helping with story.

 

[peeup]

Many of the music conductors were from Square when it comes to Brawl.

SORA CONFIRMED.

I basically just hope Namco is in charge of, or at least heavily involved in, character balance. And online couldn't hurt.

You write plots for games? That's probably the coolest thing I've ever heard #fanboy

 

[Thirdkoopa]

You write plots for games? That's probably the coolest thing I've ever heard #fanboy

Honestly, it's a lot of hard work and when people talk about it even with games you would think are simple, don't be fooled. It's really fun though. The character tie-ins I have in this current chapter are kind-of mindblowing. I really hope to make it as a producer! (Not to change this thread off-topic)

Character Balance, Online (TTT2 is the best online in a fighting game yet and they've got lots of experience with online), Adding in new modes, and helping a lot of the regular cast is all on the list of things I would love them prioritizing. I really hope we truly notice Namco's working on it and it doesn't go overshadowed.

 

[AnOkayDM]

All right, all right. Namco developing the game makes one of their characters likelier. I'll admit it.

I still think that's really weak reasoning to add a character, but I trust Sakurai to pick a good character from Namco's pantheon.

By which I mean not Pac-Man.

And I still think Mega Man is highly likely.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

It's not as weak when you think about it. I guess it's weak from our view but when it's there view and they're working hard as hell and doing crunch time just to get the game in it's best form to us (Two versions, nonetheless) it would be really a **** move for Sakurai and other producers to **** out and say "HAHAHA No you can't have your character". (Which be minded, even Brawl had three extra producers who did about as much, and in some cases more than Sakurai had)

I guess it might be weak compared to other companies, but Namco is still a top dog and hasn't done that bad of a job with giving us games.

 

[peeup]

Eh I don't really care much for new modes. Anything other than straight stock matches add like 20 minutes of total replay value, and I'm not even a tourney freak. Special brawl, break the targets, boss battles, subspace, etc. never hold my attention.

 

[Neanderthal]

Okay, if you say so. They wouldn't put him in a mech, I don't think, so how would he fight uniquely?

I said his moveset would be unique.
Plenty of characters will be added without having to "fight uniquely".

I've never even heard of the vast majority of Pac-Man games. Either way, the casuals don't go online to show their support for a character.

There's no evidence to suggest Sakurai even looks at online support so I'm not sure what that matters.

Pacmans brand awareness is only beaten by Mario in North America. And that's only by a very small percent.

It's really not though.
No one gives a damn what characters are in Mario Kart. They all essentially play the same. And no one gets hyped for a new arcade Mario Kart. You can't buy it; you pay fifty cents to play it and there's not much replay value because you don't own the thing.

Smash Bros. is one of Nintendo's biggest franchises though. Its arrival sells systems. And characters get added because people actually care. They play differently and make people excited to play as them.

It's not at all the same situation.



Okay, that's reasonable, and I can see that being eased by partnership in development, but I still don't think it matters as much as other factors.

Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I more mean making the game different from other Smash Bros's instead of more of an expansion

Really? Challenges got me hooked onto the game.

 

[peeup]

Yeah I feel like I'm in the minority with this, but I would be absolutely content with a new game with all the same features, graphice, and extras, so long as the roster is expanded by like 10 or 15. And they all should be fun, different, no semi-clones.

Though actually to that point, I'd rather them do what they did with Melee and add 6 clones instead of 1 original character, rather than the other way around.

 

[Deleted member]

It's not as weak when you think about it. I guess it's weak from our view but when it's there view and they're working hard as hell and doing crunch time just to get the game in it's best form to us (Two versions, nonetheless) it would be really a **** move for Sakurai and other producers to **** out and say "HAHAHA No you can't have your character". (Which be minded, even Brawl had three extra producers who did about as much, and in some cases more than Sakurai had)

I guess it might be weak compared to other companies, but Namco is still a top dog and hasn't done that bad of a job with giving us games.

I doubt potential characters additions would be a big issue for Namco. More likely, Namco will see a Namco character as a neat extra, but not required and only allowed if Sakurai feels one should be added.

 

[AnOkayDM]

I said his moveset would be unique.
Plenty of characters will be added without having to "fight uniquely".

Not third-parties. They're held to a higher standard.

There's no evidence to suggest Sakurai even looks at online support so I'm not sure what that matters.

Except for various polls and such he's held.

Pacmans brand awareness is only beaten by Mario in North America. And that's only by a very small percent.

Okay, if you say so.

Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

I already acknowledged Namco developing the game makes a Namco rep's chances higher, so let's stop.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Let's just wait and find out. I think just Smash 4 in-general will tell us a lot more about third-parties than Brawl did, even if we don't find out until the end.

 

[peeup]

^This.

We don't have a trend yet so we can't make any assumptions either way about anything.

So let's change the subject.