SmashCAP 2: Concept Assessment

[Terywj [태리]]

[SmashCAP 2]
Start date: 1/30/10
End date:--/--/--

The winner of the concept poll was Writer!

Concept: Type Representation
- Make a Pokemon with types that are rarely seen in OU and make it viable; all while not overshadowing another Pokemon of the same type. Harder than it seems, but it could be fun.

-----

Now without looking at any calculations / statistics I know Poison, Bug, and even Psychic are rarely seen. Would we want to meld a typing together? Or something else?

-Terywj

 

[Circa]

Actually, by using UltiMario's calculation method (which is basically just adding the percentages for each Pokemon that falls under each type in OU together, if I understood him correctly), the list looks like this:

1. Steel
2. Flying
3. Water
4. Psychic
5. Dragon
6. Electric
7. Fighting
8. Bug
9. Ghost
10. Ground
11. Fire
12. Normal
13. Rock
14. Dark
15. Poison
16. Grass
17. Ice

As you can see, the back 7 don't change from mine apart from Water->Fire, so it's safe to assume that those are pretty well set in stone. I think the real question is where do you want to keep the break for the types to choose from? The back '50%' of types (excluding 9, which is the very center) or lower?

Also Terywj, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'melding'. :\

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Shoot. Sorry. Spire, delete this one. Or the other, doesn't really matter.

-Terywj

 

[CRASHiC]

I don't think you should limit it to ONLY the bottom 50 percent, but that you want to have something from the bottom 50 percent and SHOULD IT BE NECESSARY FOR THE PROJECT, mix it with one of the higher types.

First off, I'm going to throw a few out the water as big no nos right now. Basically any pokemon we make with a 4 time weakness to Fighting or Earth attacks is out.

Now, poision types are held back by one determining factor, a weakness to the most used move in the game, Earthquake. Easy solution, pair it with Flying. Now, this comes with its plusses and benefits. On one hand, it gains an immunity to flying, as well as a 4 times resistent to Bug, Fighting, and grass. on the other it gains a weakness to rock, ice, and electric on top of Psyhich attacks.

What about its STAB? Well, that's not looking so good. Poison stab generally is very crappy, especially in a game where steel is so common, and flying doesn't help cover that weakness too much either, so this pokemon must take a defensive route, which I'm not sure how well it could do given some of its weaknesses.

Not sure what to make of all of that brain storming.

 

[xLeafybug =D]

I'm actually gonna contribute to this this time.

Based on that list, I think that the perfect typing should be a Dark/Poison.

Poison/Dark forms a perfectly legitimate typing, neutralizing the plethora of bad weaknesses they both have, with the exception of the 2x weakness that Poison has to Ground.

That being said, it doesn't have any major resistances. A Pokemon with this typing resists Dark, which can be pretty useful in what is the Pursuit-happy OU metagame. It also 2xresists Poison, Ghost, Grass and is immune to Psychic. But even with that, Steel typing resists everything this would, and more, which I feel is very balanced.

On the offensive side, this is pretty horrible typing, and Steels would demolish their STAB attacks. Non-STAB moves are a must if this becomes an offensive Pokemon.

IMPORTANT EDIT : I believe now that giving this thing Levitate would be good, by eliminating all of it's weaknesses. But you lose the unique trait of being able to soak up Toxic Spikes that Poison Pokemon carry. I believe that giving it Levitate as a dual-ability would work perfectly well, but I'm not completely sure on what it should be. If my concept is selected, I recommend that a vote is done for a second ability, similar to SmashCAP1.

NOTE: There are only THREE other Pokemon in the game with this typing. Drapion, Stunky, and Skuntank. All three lack the stats to make it to OU. With the proper stats, I believe that this could be a very useful Pokemon, depending on what we decide on the role it should play in the metagame.

EDIT: Wow, this is extremely similar to CRASHiC's, but without as many weaknesses.

 

[Circa]

The problem with doing that, CRASHiC, is that you basically ruin the concept. Anyone can mix a rarely used type with a higher-up and get something good. Have a weakness to SR? Steel! In just that one addition and some relatively good stats, you've essentially sealed yourself some sort of spot in OU. Just sticking with the bottom 50% however, you have to really work for it. Also, I think it should be noted that the #2 most used Pokemon in OU right now has two of the types listed in the bottom 50%. That alone should tell you that you don't need to resort to the top for something.

Although...I think I'm going to have to redo my calcs. x_x The new usage listings may have tampered with the list some (Scizor dropped below 30%, Tyranitar jumped to 2nd, etc.), so I'll have to check that out and get back to this.

I also want to point out that one of the merits to a Poison typing is actually the ability to soak up Toxic Spikes. Sure levitate or a Flying typing could alleviate its Ground weakness, but is it really worth losing the former?

I'll post my ideas for what could make good types probably tomorrow. I'm about to get Chinese, and that is first priority right now. 8D

EDIT: The only 4x weakness that I would actually consider bad is Rock (WE'RE NOT GIVING THIS THING MOUNTAINEER). Anything else can be worked around relatively easily. Just an FYI.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I'd say that Poison / Dark proves promising as far as defensive typings go. I believe it is immune to Ground, Psychic and Toxic (Spikes), while being resistant to Grass, Bug, Ghost, Poison, and Dark. The Fighting and Bug weaknesses of Dark are cancelled by Poison, while the Psychic weakness is removed from Dark.

(Shouldn't be saying now) Levitate could even be given so that it could evade Ground-types.

-Terywj

 

[xLeafybug =D]

That's part of why I was actually skeptical about giving it Levitate. Perhaps giving it levitate as part of a dual ability? I'll actually add that to my concept.

 

[UltiMario]

I fully support Poison/Dark.

Because its awesome. And the fact that I've used a Drapion to win at a tourney before, and love the typing because of it.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

That's part of why I was actually skeptical about giving it Levitate. Perhaps giving it levitate as part of a dual ability? I'll actually add that to my concept.

Yeah I originally had a whole spheal on it having Levitate but chose not to keep it in my post.

I fully support Poison/Dark.

Because its awesome. And the fact that I've used a Drapion to win at a tourney before, and love the typing because of it.

Love the typing, hate the design. (Of Drapion)

Weezing should get an evo with Poison / Dark.

-Terywj

 

[Metal~Mario]

Weezing should get an evo with Poison / Dark.

-Terywj

Weezing is cool and underrated enough for this. Muk perhaps as well?

Wait....it seems like any Poison type that isn't already a hybrid could do a Dark hybrid pretty well.

Back on topic:I like Leafy's idea and fully support it.

Spoiler

Mainly because I can't think of anything right now

Wait.... I've got one too.

Concept: Normal/Dark

Steel types aside, only Tyranitar resists Normal/Dark. Could make a decent Physical sweeper with STAB Return and Pursuit.

 

[CRASHiC]

So SmashCap is a way to prove gravity doesn't exist?

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Weezing is cool and underrated enough for this. Muk perhaps as well?

Wait....it seems like any Poison type that isn't already a hybrid could do a Dark hybrid pretty well.

Back on topic:I like Leafy's idea and fully support it.

Spoiler

Mainly because I can't think of anything right now

A Muk evo would work as Poison / Dark too.

So SmashCap is a way to prove gravity doesn't exist?

What are you talking about?

Poison / Dark with Levitate isn't rejecting gravity. Crobat says hi.

-Terywj

 

[Metal~Mario]

Poison / Flying with Inner Focus isn't rejecting gravity. Crobat says hi.

-Terywj

Fix'd. You're welcome.

 

[CRASHiC]

What are you talking about?

Poison / Dark with Levitate isn't rejecting gravity. Crobat says hi.

-Terywj

I'm saying are we going to give everything levitate or try to do something difficult for once?

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Well no I wasn't meaning for the two to coincide. I meant to post parallels.

-Terywj

 

[xLeafybug =D]

Taking 2x damage from earthquake is just fine, it is it's only weakness after all. Personally, I couldn't care less. I don't really want every SmashCAP we do to have levitate. If my idea is selected, let put giving it levitate to a vote.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Poison / Dark doesn't take neutral damage from Earthquake.

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

Just to say, I think one of the abilities should be intimidate.

Not sure about the other, IF there is another.

 

[xLeafybug =D]

Whoops, my bad.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Gah! Ability discussion needs to stop! (Myself included)

-Terywj

 

[xLeafybug =D]

I agree, someone else come up with a concept(s)!

 

[UltiMario]

I support Poison/Dark, end of story.

Don't think anyones going to beat that IMO.

 

[Metal~Mario]

^I'm gonna try anyway.

I agree, someone else come up with a concept(s)!

Spoiler

Mainly because I can't think of anything right now

Wait.... I've got one too.

Concept: Normal/Dark

Steel types aside, only Tyranitar resists Normal/Dark. Could make a decent Physical sweeper with STAB Return and Pursuit.

I guess nobody read my edited post (due to lack of commentary), so I will repost it.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Sure that gives it a great defensive typing, so Poison / Dark would be a defensive Pokemon, since it's STAB are horrible. xD

STAB Pursuit is nice I guess.

-Terywj

 

[Sir Bedevere]

Yeah I originally had a whole spheal on it having Levitate but chose not to keep it in my post.

I'm sorry. It had to be done.

Also, I think we need to get away from trying to make this invincible to all types (which is what CRASHiC was getting at), because otherwise, we should have all voted for Tery's Resist Monster. The way I interpreted Writer's concept was that we would find a typing mostly unused in OU, which includes combinations, so despite the plethora of Flying types we have in OU, making a competitive Bug/Flying type would pose a significant challenge (although there is Ninjask...). The experiment is to use a typing that, despite its weaknesses to common attacks, is still a viable threat in OU. Or at least that's my interpretation.

We'd also need to specify what niche in the meta it should fill. For example, running with the Bug/Flying typing, it would make sense for it to be a lead, since it avoids its Stealth Rock weakness for at least one "switch in" (the first turn counting as the switch, figuratively speaking). We could then give it Taunt to stop Stealth Rock (possibly giving it another turn, should the scenario ever occur), and it would have to be fast to get the Taunt in first, so we can already see the direction of its stats. It's sorta starting to sound like Ninjask lol, but I would imagine this as a suicide lead, while Ninjask is pretty much just for passing, at least from what I know, so Ninjask won't get overshadowed. But that was just an example, anyway.

As for actual suggestions, I think a Pokemon that will help Hail teams is a good direction to go, because I don't really see Hail being used much. Of course it'd have the Ice type to be immune, and it's one of the unused types in Writer's list, but I'm not sure where to go from there.

And sorry if I'm wrong/out of line here, I'm just getting my land legs in competitive battling. <.>

 

[UltiMario]

Working with Hail isn't exaclty great, seeing as there wouldn't be much to use but, what, Abomasnow, Walrein, Frosslass, and that? Hail doesn't have much going for it in OU, and this wouldn't change that too much, besides, the Stealth Rock weakness just feels a lot bigger in OU than it sounds like.

I still like Dark/Poison because.... it just works! Even with only 1 real STAB...

Actually, if we're dealing with crappy STABs here, why not give it Adaptability? Or Tinted Lens?

 

[Metal~Mario]

^Excellent Pic.

Looks good. But you forgot about Yanmega.

 

[Moozle]

Wouldn't levitating poison/dark do a better job? It has literally no weaknesses and two immunities. I think that would be spectacularly annoying

Everyone needs to start listening to me

This idea seems kind of like the type resistance, but the two concepts were pretty similar so I guess that was hard to get around. I agree on the typing though, and would really like to see how it could be turned into a formidable opponent.

 

[xLeafybug =D]

The only Poison/Dark with Levitate that I could see is an evolution of Weezing.

STOP THE ABILITY DISCUSSION! PLEASE.

 

[Metal~Mario]

^ I tried with my above concept, but obviously failed.

 

[Moozle]

I didn't mean to bring up the levitate idea again, I was just laughing to myself because I was talking in the other thread a few days ago about how I thought a poison/dark pokemon would be good

 

[xLeafybug =D]

I'm not referring to you, Metal~Mario. But literally 2/3 of this thread is completely derailed. We're not doing an Abilities discussion. We're trying to gather concepts. Go ahead and say whether or not you agree with a concept, but we're not at abilities discussion yet.

 

[Wave⁂]

I really DO NOT want a Poison / Dark Pokemon.

1. Already done. Drapion and Skuntank.
2. Spiritomb Syndrome (yep, just made it up): few weaknesses, but also few resistances hold this Pokemon back.
3. Dark is already represented. In more than 25% of all OU battles, to be exact. Sure, that's virtually just one Pokemon. But still, 25%.


I propose a Levitating Ice / Rock Pokemon.

Weaknesses: Fighting x2, Rock, Steel x2
Resistances: Ice, Flying, Normal, Poison

Some bad weaknesses combined with arguably the two best offensive types in the game.

 

[Riddle]

The 17 types are:

1. Steel
2. Flying
3. Water
4. Psychic
5. Dragon
6. Electric
7. Fighting
8. Bug
9. Ghost
10. Ground
11. Fire
12. Normal
13. Rock
14. Dark
15. Poison
16. Grass
17. Ice

First the primary type. We can eliminate the top 10 because the point of this CAP is neglected type.

11. Fire
12. Normal
13. Rock
14. Dark
15. Poison
16. Grass
17. Ice

Lets start from the bottom and go up:

Ice - Ice has two very bad problems:

1) Stealth Rock - This can be neutralized by a secondary Steel, Fighting, or Ground typing.

2) Bullet Punch - This can be neutralized by a secondary Steel, Water, Electric, or Fire typing,

As you can see the only type that neutralizes both weaknesses is Steel which leaves us with Steel / Ice. Steel / Ice however is 4x weak to Fire and Fighting and 2x weak to Ground which are all very common types making this a poor choIce for typing. This eliminates Ice from the pool of primary types.

Our list is now down to:

11. Fire
12. Normal
13. Rock
14. Dark
15. Poison
16. Grass

Grass - Grass is a mediocre typing all around. It is resisted by 7 types offensively and has 5 weaknesses defensively. It is outclassed by several other types and would have to have very good stats (Celebi) or a very good movepool (Breloom) to really be good for OU and I don’t think this poke will be getting Spore or having a BST of 600.

11. Fire
12. Normal
13. Rock
14. Dark
15. Poison

Poison – Poison is an interesting typing. It has a few bad weaknesses but several good resistances as well. The main problem to be circumvented with Poison is its weakness to the most common move in the game, Earthquake. This can be circumvented with Levitate, a Flying typing (both already suggested), a Grass typing, or a Bug typing. Flying and Levitate have already been suggested so I’ll ignore those. That leaves us with Grass or Bug type. Poison / Grass is actually a very decent typing leaving us weaknesses to Fire, Flying, and Psychic and resistances to Fighting, Grass, Water, and Electric. However the STABs of this typing are horrible and would most probably have to be a defensive pokemon. Poison / Bug is in a similar boat with decent resistances and nearly as bad STABs however it is stealth rock weak which is a very undesirable trait.

11. Fire
12. Normal
13. Rock
14. Dark

Dark – The Dark type is weak only to Fighting and Bug and resists Dark and Ghost with an immunity to Psychic. Dark can thus combine with almost any type to form a decent type combination.

11. Fire
12. Normal
13. Rock

Rock – Rock falls into the same boat as Ice since it is weak to Bullet Punch. A secondary Steel, Electric, or Fire typing gives the typing a 4x weakness to Ground, which is something that should probably be avoided. That leaves just a secondary Water typing. Rock / Waterl is weak to Electric, Fighting, Water, and Grass and resists Ice, Fire, Flying, Poison, and Normal. Offensively Rock and Water are very good STABs hitting everything in OU but Breloom and Empoleon for at least neutral damage.

11. Fire
12. Normal

Normal – Normal doesn’t leave very much room for creativity and is not a very interesting type and really has no chance of winning a typing poll, so I am going to ignore it.

11. Fire

That leaves Fire. Fire is weak to stealth rock and so to be viable without having overpowered stats and/or movepool it has to have a type neutralizing its SR weakness. Steel, Fighting, and Ground are the options for this. Steel / Fire and Fighting / Fire are both typings held by prominent pokemon in OU (Heatran and Infernape respectively) and so for creativities sake I will reject them. That leaves Fire / Ground. Fire / Ground resists Bug, Fire, Steel, Electric and Poison and is weak to Water and Ground. It also has extremely good offensive STABs (Look at Heatran’s two most common attacks).


So, our possible types gleaned from this analysis are as follows.

Poison / Grass

Weaknesses: Fire, Flying, Psychic
Resistances/Immunities: Fighting, Grass, Water, Electric

Rock / Water

Weaknesses: Electric, Grass, Ground
Resistances/Immunities: Fire, Ice, Flying, Poison, Normal

Fire / Ground

Weaknesses: Water, Ground
Resistances/Immunities: Bug, Fire, Steel, Electric, Poison


Poison / Grass seems to be the most unique typing of the three whereas Fire / Ground seems to be the best. However, since the goal of this pokemon is to have an underused typing I believe Poison / Grass seems to be the best typing for the job.

TL;DR I support Poison / Grass

 

[Wave⁂]

Vote: try to make something cool instead of something that will destroy the entire metagame with perfect underused typing

FoS: Riddle

Anyways, I'm neutral to Poison / Grass.
1. WAYY overused combination
2. Roserade
3. Poison and Grass are both mediocre offensive types.
4. Defensively decent
5. I'd like to see you make this guy NOT the same as Roserade, Celebi, or Shaymin.

 

[Terrador14]

A new Sandstreamer would be great. Perhaps a pure Rock type who SR's like a pimp and hits like a truck?

Also, I like the Poison/Dark idea. I'm opposed to Levitate, though. Let's have a secondary that makes the aesthetics easier this time, eh?

 

[Circa]

Vote: try to make something efficient instead of something cool with perfect underused typing

Fix'd. If we wanted something cool we would've all voted for the Wonderguard abuser, now wouldn't we have?

My concept was to use the bottom 50% in both typings to create a viable Pokemon. We can use any type combination we particularly want to use, as long as it's in the bottom 50%. This is about studying the metagame by looking at types and what effect they have on the Pokemon that exist in OU and figuring out specific ways to exploit it, not making the world 29815643986x easier on ourselves by making that resist monster that everyone now seems to think is the most amazing idea ever.

Use your heads. Look ahead. We were all given the link to the list of moves that are nearly guaranteed to be on any specific type. Use that list and figure out what every type can have going for it move-wise, and start deciding with that all in mind as well.

Jesus you people frustrate me sometimes.

EDIT: Interestingly enough though, despite what I said, there is a type combination that would pretty much be easy as hell to use and get a viable Pokemon for. Poison/Ground. Terywj, I'm looking at you for this one, as you should know what I'm saying. <.< All you basically have to do is take one of the two Pokemon with that type combo, boost their stats a bit, maybe give them a better ability (although it's not needed), and bam you're done. Seriously, that's it. XD The typing alone does the rest.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

ENOUGH WITH MUKKING ABILITY TALK!

Anyways, I propose Grass / Rock.

Defense:
Immunities - None
Resistances - Rock, Electric
Weaknesses - Fighting, Bug, (Ice?)

Offense:
With Grass and Rock STAB, SmashCAP 2 would hit Water, Rock, Ground, Flying, Fire, Ice, and Bug types for supereffective damage. Types that resist Grass / Rock are Dragon, Poison, and Steel.

In general it seems alright to me. The typing gives it some good resists: Celebi, Vaporeon, Hippowdon, etc. while still being able to hit Swampert, Zapdos, Salamence for supereffective damage. Gyarados would be an easy switch-in, since it would resist Waterfall / Aqua Tail and Earthquake, and only the gimmicky Bounce could actually do something.

This said Pokemon happens to resist Stealth Rock 4x, takes neutral damage from Pursuit, and is immune to Leech Seed.

This typing has also never been done before.

I also liked the idea of Grass / Steel but Fire-type attacks say hello.

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

Hey Writer if you're not busy would you recalc the types for the new chart?

You know, type balancing accomplishes nothing when using old stats.