SmashCAP 1: Offensive Move Discussion

[Terywj [태리]]

Since the Name and Sprite Submissions were also posted as soon as the art poll ended, I thought I'd make it less hectic by splitting up the movepool discussions into basically 6 sections: attacking moves, support / non-attacking moves, and the moveset, each having their respective poll subsequently after the conclusion of the discussions (and in the moveset's case, submissions) for each one. Let's review what we know, shall we?

SmashCAP 1
Concept: Bulky-Offense Counter
Type: Water/ Ground
Ability: Levitate / Unaware
Base stats: 85 / 80 / 140 / 80 / 65 / 90 (BST: 540)

Basically, discuss all comptitive attacking moves you think SmashCAP 1 should or shouldn't have, and explain in your post as to why. Flavor posts should mostly be ignored for now.

To make it easier for the whole of the community...please submit moves for the following 3 categories: "allowed," "controversial," and "unallowed."

Allowed moves

Aqua Tail
Brine
Hydro Pump
Surf
Waterfall
Earthquake
Earth Power
Crunch
Pursuit
Aqua Jet
Ice Beam
Ice Fang
Dive
Rock Slide
Dragon Pulse
Blizzard
Ancientpower
Outrage
Double-Edge
Skull Bash
Stone Edge
Iron Head

Controversial moves

Unallowed moves
Super Fang
Fire Fang
Thunder Fang
Ice Shard
Head Smash
U-Turn
Power Gem
Hydro Cannon
Zen Headbutt

Provided by Deck Knight from Smogon, here's a link to a helpful page: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1923214&postcount=34

With the conclusion of these, the Counters Discussion will prove more effective once we understand what moves SmashCAP 1 will possess.

Remember, all global forum rules apply! Happy brainstorming!

My two cents coming later.

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

Lets start with the easy stuff.

Attacking moves that SmashCAP will definately have:
Aqua Tail
Brine
Dive
Hydro Pump
Muddy Water
Surf
Water Gun
Water Pulse
Waterfall
Whirlpool
Dig
Earthquake
Earth Power
Magnitude
Mud Bomb
Mud Shot
Mud Slap
Bite
Crunch
Ice Fang

This does not include TMs and Move Tutor moves, unless SmashCAP1 has the same typing as said move. Bite, Crunch, and Ice Fang all exist because of those rather nice Teeth SmashCAP Sports. Everything else here is a no-brainer, and having now three Water/Ground types in the past 14 years, they support these, barring the 3 biting moves.

Also, this thing needs an Egg Group.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Alrighty, I'll edit those into the auto-list, but I'm going to remove anything we don't really "need" on SmashCAP 1.

However for the sake of the rules I'll place Crunch and Ice Fang under the Controversial.

-Terywj

 

[Circa]

Allowed
Iron Tail
Return
Frustration
Facade
Secret Power
Hyper Beam
Giga Impact
Double-Edge


Controversial
Aqua Jet
Avalanche
Blizzard
Icy Wind
Ice Beam
Faint Attack
Pursuit
Stone Edge
Rock Slide
AncientPower
Super Fang
Iron Head

Unallowed
Hydro Cannon
Water Spout
Ice Shard
Rock Blast
Rock Tomb
Head Smash
Rock Wrecker
Beat Up
Punishment
Dark Pulse
Fake Out
Quick Attack
Extremespeed


For the moves in Allowed, I basically chose them because they're pretty standard. It has a tail so it's almost guaranteed to get Iron Tail, and I do believe the rest of the moves are taught to nearly every single Pokemon in the game that isn't Magikarp-like.

Controversial moves were chosen based more upon the rules (they're not Water/Ground, although it's almost guaranteed it will get them), but a select few apply to aesthetics as well. I kinda assume moves like Aqua Jet, Pursuit, and Super Fang will be unallowed because of the options it may then have to use, but it does look like it would use those moves, so I put them there.

I didn't really know what you wanted for Unallowed so I just threw random **** in there that I figured it looked like it could use but either wouldn't be necessary to use or could just be stupid on it (e.g. Extremespeed).

EDIT: I didn't know if I was supposed to include moves already mentioned or not, so I just left out the ones that UltiMario posted. <.<

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I will not be adding any until competitive reaons are given for each move.

It's my fault I didn't mention it earlier, but yeah. Try to stick with a few moves at a time, giving good explanations for each.
---
Personally I think Ice Beam should be allowed, as it is a Water-type, so giving him access to it won't hurt. Ice Beam provides a check for the obvious Grass-type switch-ins to SmashCAP 1. Also, since it's at a base 80 Sp Atk stat it really can't be horrifying unless coupled with a stat-up move, which will be addressed later. However, Ice Shard is a priority, but given its base 90 Spd it doesn't necessarily "need" it. Of course it has Aqua Jet already at disposal as far as priority is concerned.

Calm Mind, as helpful as it would be to SmashCAP 1's poor Sp Def stat, is irrational and out of place. I say disallow it.

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

Might as well make a Offensive Move TM list. I'll repeat a few moves, but I'm doing so just for the same of completion. Argue if you want, but I believe I've got this down pat.


Allowed:
TM03 Water Pulse
TM10 Hidden Power
TM13 Ice Beam
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM21 Frustration
TM23 Iron Tail
TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return
TM28 Dig
TM42 Facade
TM43 Secret Power
TM55 Brine
TM68 Giga Impact
TM80 Rock Slide
TM83 Natural Gift
HM03 Surf
HM04 Strength
HM05HGSS Whirlpool
HM06 Rock Smash
HM07 Waterfall

Controvertial:
TM14 Blizzard
TM59 Dragon Pulse
TM71 Stone Edge
TM72 Avalanche
TM89 U-Turn

Unallowed:
Everything else. Seriously, do I have to make this list?

Edit: Terywj posted while I was making this list.
In my perspective, I say lets get the obvious things settled before we go into debates.


However.... There was one thing that I've been thinking of...
I think Amnesia might actually be a viable move. Probably being unaware of too much would lower its mental capacity, thus, making it forget often. The starategy terms for this would be a remedy for the low Special Defense stat, and unlike calm mind, be too specific to use on anything but trying to survive special onslaughts, which is extremely useful, but nowhere near broken.

 

[xLeafybug =D]

EDIT: I could have done a better job with the explanations, but I'm tired...

Allowed

Water Pulse
I think that this is self-explanatory, all Water types that I can think of learn this move.
Brine
I think that this is self-explanatory, all Water types that I can think of learn this move.
Waterfall
Self-explanatory.
Aqua Tail
Self-explanatory.
Muddy Water
I think that this is self-explanatory, all Water/Ground types that I can think of learn this move, with the exception of the Wishcash family.
Surf
I think that this is self-explanatory, all Water types that I can think of learn this move.
Hydro Pump
I think that this is self-explanatory, all Water types that I can think of learn this move.
Avalanche
I think that this is self-explanatory, all Water types that I can think of learn this move.
Ice Fang
I think that this is self-explanatory, all Water types that I can think of learn this move.
Blizzard
I think that this is self-explanatory, all Water types that I can think of learn this move.
Ice Beam
I think that this is self-explanatory, all Water types that I can think of learn this move.
Rock Slide
I think that this is self-explanatory, all Ground types that I can think of can learn this move.
Stone Edge
I think that this is self-explanatory, all Ground types that I can think of can learn this move.
Earth Power
I think that this is self-explanatory, all Ground types that I can think of can learn this move.
Ancientpower
A lot of Pokemon learn this move through move tutor or breeding.
Earthquake
I think that this is self-explanatory, all Ground types learn this move.
Return/Frustration
I think this is pretty self-explanatory.
Iron Tail
SmashCAP has a tail, I believe that this is pretty much a move that any Pokemon with a tail should learn.

I believe that most of these are pretty basic. I don't think any of these require any real debate.
Controversial

Aqua Jet
Priority attack, not sure if you want it.
Ice Shard
Priority attack, but this one I'm even more unsure of.
Crunch
I think this belongs in allowed, but you decided it to be controversial.
Aerial Ace
Bleh, I don't know what I was thinking.
Poison Fang
This is not something I believe should be there or not.
Zen Headbutt
BOOM, Headshot! Oshi-!

Uhm... BOOM, Headbutt!?
Quick Attack
Priority, I want the community's opinion.
Mud Shot
It's a crappy Earth Power.

Unallowed
Hydro Cannon
Water Spout
Icy Wind
Ice Punch
Crabhammer
Sand Tomb
Bone Rush

My list is completely seperate from Writer's and UltiMario's. I chose my list not to do a certain job, but just as a list of possible moves that I personally believe that fit SmashCAP 1. Every Pokemon knows useless moves, so of course some of them may seem stupid and/or unnecessary. But that's not what this is about.

You shouldn't really take much regard to the unallowed list. I stopped filling it out pretty much as soon as I started. If something isn't in my allowed or controversial section, it's not a move I believe that SmashCAP should have.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Please avoid TM lists. Those are for during the moveset discussions.

And again, please try to make clear valid statements as to why SmashCAP should get so and so move. Obviously moves like Waterfall or Blizzard will be a given, so focus on more pending topics: like Crunch, for example.

@UltiMario: Try not to use flavor too much in your posts.

-Terywj

 

[Circa]

Ah, with that said...

Crunch should be added to the Allowed column based on the aesthetic standpoint (it has fangs and DEFINITELY looks vicious enough to use it) as well as, to some extent, a competitive standpoint. 80 Base Attack isn't exactly going to give it much killing ability, but Crunch does give it the chance to do something while it's walling its *** off, thanks to Crunch's 20% chance of lowering the opponent's defense. Although this is obviously situational and probably wouldn't be used by many, it still does have its uses and some may find it to be quite helpful depending on what kind of moveset they run.

Ice fang just seems quite obvious to me tbh. It has fangs and can obviously do something with Ice if moves such as Blizzard are given to it. As for what it can do competitively, I don't know. I guess it could be another physical move option; kinda like how Hippowdon gets it to use and does (although Hippowdon is admittedly quite a bit stronger).

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Just wanted to voice out that Super Fang should not be given to SmashCAP 1. It already has stellar defense, and so switching in on a physical attacker will be easy. Furthermore, SmashCAP 1's weaker Sp Def stat will be preyed upon, and when a Roserade or whatever switches in Super Fang comes in and wipes away half her health.

Super Fang overrides SmashCAP 1's mediocre Atk stat, which would make it too good. If giving it Super Fang doesn't severly weaken the opposing Pokemon so that it can KO it, it'll make the enemy easy pickings for a teammate. So I say Super Fang should be disallowed.

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

I find that Crunch is a great option becaue it gives SmashCAP1 a fighting chance against Latias. Ice Beam won't do much to Latias' huge special Defense stat, and Ice Fang isn't really going to do much to it either due to its lackluster power, so Crunch, and its Defense lowering effect, are especially useful.

I support Aqua Jet, it allows SmashCAP1 to finish off anything that survives with only slivers of HP to spare without risking its own life in the process. SmashCAP1 already has subpar attacking stats, so this scenerio will probably be decently common. This will overall help SmashCAP's ability to function as a BOC. Because of things like intimidate though, in theory, Unaware would be more useful when you're using Aqua Jet.

However, I do not support Ice Shard and Quick Attack, they don't really match the type or design of SmashCAP1. Ice Shard is generally outclassed by Ice Beam, seeing as all the power that can be mustered is needed o get OHKOs. a -1 Ice Shard from this guy won't be OHKOing Mence anytime soon, but an Ice Beam probably, if not definately would. Ice Shard could theoretically be useful with Unaware, like Aqua Jet, but I still feel as if Ice Beam is a better option overall.

I support Stone Miss Edge and obviously Rock Slide. Rock Slide is something that would definately find its way into this, but Stone Edge, not so much. SmashCAP1 isn't much of a sweeper, so taking Power over accuracy in order to get certain KOs may be something that is taken into account in the making of movesets later down the road. These moves are only useful for hitting a handful of Pokemon, such as Zapdos or Togekiss, harder than other moves that SmashCAP1 can learn, but IMO, it is worth it.

And now that I see it, I like Writer's idea of Super Fang, which might let SmashCAP1 do things Walrein style with Super Fang and Brine. It would certainly counter Bulky Offense, barring the Rotom Formes, seeing as taking 50% of HP and then washing the rest away would technically counter something, especially when you take into account things like Stealth Rock or Life Orb damage that was inflicted. This definately isn't broken, seeing as how Walrein isn't OU right now because of it, and it can use a similar strategy, even if not as good on the defensive, it works in Hail about as effectively as SmashCAP1 would work with it I would think, and that's not bad either.

I don't have a personal opinion on it right now, but we should probably consider Dragon Pulse, the thing looks Dragon-ish, and it gets good coverage, but I'm still thinking about the details of its use other than hitting Kingdra hard.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Keep in mind that stall Walrein already worked well before HG/SS gifted it with Super Fang. Also, Walrein doesn't have base 90 Speed. Something with that speed, and packing a decent base 80 Sp/Atk stat could again either make it too powerful or make it too easy to cripple other Pokemon.

Also, compare their defenses. SmashCAP 1 has 85 / 140 / 65 whereas Walrein has 110 / 90 / 90. SmashCAP 1 has just about slightly better defenses overall, and has a much better typing. SmashCAP 1 is resistant to Stealth Rock, and if using Levitate won't be taking any Spikes / Toxic Spikes damage. Walrein on the other hand suffer from a 25% crush of HP when switching into Stealth Rock. Albeit Walrein gains a more favorable ability in Hail-theme with Ice Body, it's for that said purpose. Stallrein wouldn't be as effective in normal or non-Hail play, simply because of it's ability coupled with the effects of Hail.

With that, Super Fang climbs into the controversial group.

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

While Super Fang would increase SmashCAP1's usefullness slightly, I'm not thinking that SF+Brine would become a dominant set, and it wouldn't feel anywhere near as stupid to fight as Walrein in infinate Hail.
Also, just to point out, on things like your Roserade example. Roserade would take as much, if not more damage from Ice Beam or Earthquake. Latias might take more damage from Crunch, Infernape would take more from Surf or EQ..... The only common GKer that would take more hurt from Super Fang is Celebi, and Brine barely phazes Celebi...

Super Fang IS useful, but it isn't some godsend that will brutally damage whatever that switches in more than another move that SmashCAP could learn, and quite a bit of stuff Super Fang absolutely ***** tends to hit weak with Brine. Blissey, Celebi, Bulky waters. It's not terribly good, nor is it terribly bad.

However, using Super Fang on a set where Brine isn't alone in the attacking options is where this debate could get interesting. Possibly using a Super Fang/EQ/Ice Beam/X set, but as we know, this isn't a sweeper, and might not even be Garunteed a KO on things even after Super Fang.

 

[Wave⁂]

I support Paleowave.

 

[Terrador14]

As we have some good lists going, I'll just throw in my two cents on a couple of moves...

Crunch and Ice Fang are both a "YESZ!". Seriously, SmashCAP1 deserves both of these moves. The teeth... are... HUGE! Not to mention standard Ice move access and the meaner pokes being FAR more likely to get Crunch...

Ice Shard and Quick Attack are definite no-no's. Aqua Jet is the only priority this guy could even think about. Having Ice Shard/Quick Attack just doesn't make any sense.

Calm Mind and Amnesia are also things I'm adamantly opposed to. They make little sense (bar Amnesia for Unaware...) and put this poke on borderline broken. Also, discussing them in the OFFENSIVE move thread... really?

Dive should be taken under consideration; I haven't seen it in any of you guys' talking. It seems to be a fairly obvious allowance, no?

I'm all for Dragon Pulse on SmashCAP1. I can't really explain it, but it just seems to fit really well. However, this opens up a Pandora's Box on two other moves, both available by 4th gen tutors: Outrage and Draco Meteor. These two should be moved to "controversial" if Dragon Pulse is allowed.

Power Gem seems to be an apt move on this poke; it has a Ground typing and good Special Attack. I see little reason why not to use it, but it deserves "controversial" at least.

I'm against Zen Headbutt here. It just doesn't fit all that well. SmashCAP1 is more of a fang-and-body poke; it doesn't look like it would do much with its head. However, Extrasensory and Psychic could be potential options, but Extrasensory clashes with Unaware.

Bullet Punch bc0z thn it wud b as gewd as Sizur and it wud b t3h ub4rz!!!!11!!!!11!!11

 

[Deleted member]

Notable movepool:

STAB:

Aqua Jet
Waterfall
Aqua Tail
Surf
Hydro Pump

Earth Power
Earthquake

Other:

Ice Beam
Pursuit
Crunch
Stone Edge
U-turn

I don't really care about any other attacking moves. However, I dislike the idea of using any others outside of water/ice/rock/ground/dark. I guess Iron Tail and Shadow Sneak are okay, but that's about it.

 

[CRASHiC]

I personally advidally support Dive and Power Gem. I could really see this pokemon becoming a sort of anti Gdose, not from a competitive perspective but on a aesthetic perspective.

Does status count as offense as well? If it does, I'd like to propose Flatter, which would help it in in its bulky offense counter role somewhat.

Other moves that are a must for me:
Dark Pulse
Earth Power
Muddy Water- Really strong special stab with a HAX effect.
Shadow Ball
AncientPower
Head Smash
Bind
Facade- Discouragaes the use of status against this pokemon, something that could destroy its stall potential.
Feint- To stop the wishers that will try to stall it out.
Skull Bash- I REALLY like this one for him. Allows him to switch in, raise his defense, and attack the next turn.
Uproar- Sleep Talk counter, picked this with Machamp in mind.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Crunch has been added to the Allowed.

@Terrador: I'll be against Zen Headbutt too, but again keep it mind try not to use flavor reasoning.

@Crash!c: Attacking moves only for the time being. The non-attacking moves is where we'll discuss other moves like status-inducing ones.
Sure giving it Dive would make it like a pseudo-Gyarados, but what does it do for SmashCAP 1? The only reason why Bounce Gyarados works is because it had pickoff Celebi. SmashCAP 1 using Dive with it's not-so-great attack would make it easier to bring in a counter.
---
I think the Elemental Fangs should be allowed. Meager base power, but they can provide him with extra coverage should he need it. Fire Fang is pretty much SmashCAP 1's only method of hitting Bronzong and Skarmory, while Thunder Fang enjoys hitting Gyarados, although it is likely of ending up with a Rock-type move.
Ice Fang will give it a decent Ice-type attack move, and isn't priority, like Ice Shard.

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

@Terywj:
Giving a Water/Ground type Fire or Thunder Fang is stupid, and makes no sense. Even if they did get in, Rock Slide, Stone Edge, or Ice Beam would just be superior except for taking down ONE Pokemon, which isn't worth it, if we're that desperate to take down Gyara, HP Electric would be a better option regardless. However, Ice Fang doesn't have said conflicts, and I already agree on it... soo....

@Crashic: Dark Pulse is generally going to be outclassed by Crunch, and honestly, Dark Pulse just doesn't follow the feel, typing, nothing about SmashCAP1. I feel the same way with Shadow Ball.

Earth Power and Muddy Water afre two moves SmashCAP1 is just going to get regardless, due to STAB affliliation.

Ancientpower is an interesting choice. Unfortunately, it is outclassed by HP Rock when you're using Unaware, and its actually just as outclassed with levitate. 8PP and a small power drop will probably outweigh the 10% chance of utter destruction being rained upon the foe, but I still say its worth having in there.

I think Head Smash is a no-go. Head Smash is a very exclusive move, and only used by Pokemon whos craniums are definately some sort of rock-hard thing, asthetically it doesn't work. Besides, I wouldn't personally like all that Recoil on something that was supposed to be so bulky.

Lolwut. Bind? Useless, it'll be in there, sure, but useless. Facade? TMs let it happen 100% garuntee. Feint? I don't even think that this move should be learnable, and even if it was, its even more useless than bind. While Skull Bash is an interesting idea, anything that resists it will come in and abuse a free switch-in.

@Umbreon:
I agree with you on everything there but Pursuit. I have really stupid reasoning behind it that I could go into detail about, but Pursuit would probably be too much. Things couldn't even switch out safely to counter this already decent Fakemon, its just... overwhelming.

@Terrador:
Dive will obviously be in the moveset, its just not a game-changing asset, thats all.

I don't think Power Gem asthetically or literally is within the Pokemon's available movepool. If you need a Base 70 Special Rock Type move, you can use Hidden Power, and you'll accomplish the same thing. Between a combo like Ice Beam and Surf, which will probably be common moves of SmashCAP1, Power Gem will have little to no use, so I don't think its quite fitting in there.

I agree with you on Zen Headbutt, but just to say, Psychic and Extrasensory aren't just moves that conflict with the type, but they also BOTH require an extreme mental state, and great knowledge of surroundings, being one with nature if you may say. This conflicts with Unaware, but just to say its not only Extrasensory that does this.

Ah tut0lee bel13v3 |_|, I nao |3e|_i3\/ez t|-|47 Bullet Punch wu|) R0(k


I believe that covers it.

Spoiler

If you can't tell, I'm trying to be as big of a part as possible in the moveset phases. This is something that I'm definately sure that I have a talent in working out, and I don't want to see something catastrophic happen during these phases......

 

[Terywj [태리]]

As I had posted in the Counters Discussion thread, Bronzong and Skarmory are two very good checks to SmashCAP 1, and if it gets Super Fang it can whip off half of both their health where only the latter has a viable recovery option (Rest wasn't counted for Bronzong).

That's only more reason to me supporting Super Fang as a disallowed move.

-Terywj

 

[Circa]

I agree with Terywj that Super Fang should be unallowed. Comparing Walrein to SmashCAP1 is impossible. Walrein has a much harder time switching in, as well as forcing opponents to switch out. SmashCAP1 has the Defense to force any physical attacker not named Breloom out as soon as it comes in, and with Super Fang it can threaten any switch-in that isn't a Ghost; which means that Ghosts like Rotom-A and Gengar basically become SmashCAP1's hard counter. Problem is, they're both walled pretty hard by Blissey (unless of course Gengar Explodes, in which case they'll probably have something else on the team to stop that anyway). And Blissey also has options to hinder your opponent's team thanks to Seismic Toss and Thunder Wave. Mix the two together and you basically get a nearly unstoppable defensive force.

Although I may just be over-exaggerating. But if so then not by much...

 

[Terrador14]

@Terywj:
Giving a Water/Ground type Fire or Thunder Fang is stupid, and makes no sense. Even if they did get in, Rock Slide, Stone Edge, or Ice Beam would just be superior except for taking down ONE Pokemon, which isn't worth it, if we're that desperate to take down Gyara, HP Electric would be a better option regardless. However, Ice Fang doesn't have said conflicts, and I already agree on it... soo....

@Crashic: Dark Pulse is generally going to be outclassed by Crunch, and honestly, Dark Pulse just doesn't follow the feel, typing, nothing about SmashCAP1. I feel the same way with Shadow Ball.

Earth Power and Muddy Water afre two moves SmashCAP1 is just going to get regardless, due to STAB affliliation.

Ancientpower is an interesting choice. Unfortunately, it is outclassed by HP Rock when you're using Unaware, and its actually just as outclassed with levitate. 8PP and a small power drop will probably outweigh the 10% chance of utter destruction being rained upon the foe, but I still say its worth having in there.

I think Head Smash is a no-go. Head Smash is a very exclusive move, and only used by Pokemon whos craniums are definately some sort of rock-hard thing, asthetically it doesn't work. Besides, I wouldn't personally like all that Recoil on something that was supposed to be so bulky.

Lolwut. Bind? Useless, it'll be in there, sure, but useless. Facade? TMs let it happen 100% garuntee. Feint? I don't even think that this move should be learnable, and even if it was, its even more useless than bind. While Skull Bash is an interesting idea, anything that resists it will come in and abuse a free switch-in.

@Umbreon:
I agree with you on everything there but Pursuit. I have really stupid reasoning behind it that I could go into detail about, but Pursuit would probably be too much. Things couldn't even switch out safely to counter this already decent Fakemon, its just... overwhelming.

@Terrador:
Dive will obviously be in the moveset, its just not a game-changing asset, thats all.

I don't think Power Gem asthetically or literally is within the Pokemon's available movepool. If you need a Base 70 Special Rock Type move, you can use Hidden Power, and you'll accomplish the same thing. Between a combo like Ice Beam and Surf, which will probably be common moves of SmashCAP1, Power Gem will have little to no use, so I don't think its quite fitting in there.

I agree with you on Zen Headbutt, but just to say, Psychic and Extrasensory aren't just moves that conflict with the type, but they also BOTH require an extreme mental state, and great knowledge of surroundings, being one with nature if you may say. This conflicts with Unaware, but just to say its not only Extrasensory that does this.

Ah tut0lee bel13v3 |_|, I nao |3e|_i3\/ez t|-|47 Bullet Punch wu|) R0(k


I believe that covers it.

Spoiler

If you can't tell, I'm trying to be as big of a part as possible in the moveset phases. This is something that I'm definately sure that I have a talent in working out, and I don't want to see something catastrophic happen during these phases......

I agree with everything stated here bar the Power Gem bit. I still think that this poke deserves it, whether it's useful or not. To be honest, a Specs/LO Earth Power/Surf/Power Gem/*insert generic support move here* sweep-stop set could be pretty fun, but whatever.

Also, no Super Fang. Even the base stats and typing are flat-out madness. Super Fang would easily shove this poke into Suspect, especially considering the physical OU metagame.

Finally, something to take note of: EGG MOVES. Is this going to get anything special via those? I have no idea how egg move mechanics work, so I'll make way for someone who does.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

We could assume that SmashCAP 1 belongs in Water _ / Ground egg groups?

Edit: Although egg moves should be considered part of the moveset discussion..

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

Before you make any more mistakes, ALL the moves the Pokemon can learn is its MovePOOL, MoveSETS are the 4 moves you choose on a Pokemon.

Just being a WORD NAZI.

But yes, Egg Group.

Water 1 is an egg group shared by each Water/Ground type. The other egg group was based on its shape. All Snake-like Pokemon are in the Dragon Egg Group.

Therefore, the Egg Group for this Pokemon is Water 1/Dragon by sticking to Pokemon's logic.

So pretty much, I see that...

Spit Up (And the rest of the stockpile Family, but Spit up is the only offensive move)
Dragonbreath
Fissure
Body Slam
Ancientpower
Double-Edge/Take Down
Thrash
Flail
and Assurance
are moves that are in the relm of possibility for SmashCAP1 to learn that are generally shared between similar Pokemon, some of these will definatly be excluded, and new egg moves will be added to this list as non-offensive and support moves come in, and possibly an egg move or two that SmashCAP1 will uniquely get as compared to other similar Pokemon.

Also, I noticed I forgot to adress this in my last post, so I will now.

.....both available by 4th gen tutors: Outrage and Draco Meteor. These two should be moved to "controversial" if Dragon Pulse is allowed.

Draco Meteor = Dragons only move. And when you see a Pokemon with Outrage thats not Dragon, it tends be be big and heavy. Outrage is POSSIBLE, but I doubt it'll happen. Outrage just isn't something we should be throwing on something ment to wall. There is, however, another Dragon move that will spark debate, but thats for another time.

 

[M.K]

This defensive tank with....Super Fang?
That sounds....too powerful or broken in some way. Super Fang/Brine is scary T_T.

Otherwise, I see alot of the moves people already pointed out.
I can see Whirlpool ; if we are gonna talk about the moves, we might as well talk about the ones that, you know, suck as well...

Definitely not Psychic/Extrasensory. The water types that use this (Poliwrath, Gorebyss, Politoed, etc.) are much less savage and more tactical than this Pokemon.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Alright since I've seen a majority support it disallowed Super Fang will henceforth be placed there.

@UltiMario: I meant like moveset as in level-up moves, TM/HMs, tutored moves and egg moves combined.

-Terywj

 

[Terrador14]

And when you see a Pokemon with Outrage thats not a Dragon, it tends to be big and heavy.

Um... this thing IS big and heavy. It's probably going to end up with a good length, considering as it appears we've come to a consensus on the weight of over 200 kilograms (base 120 GK/LK group).

 

[Deleted member]

a non-stab pursuit from a base 80 is pretty far from overpowering.

 

[Circa]

a non-stab pursuit from a base 80 is pretty far from overpowering.

This. It can't even OHKO Gengar for goodness sake.

 

[CRASHiC]

Since bulkey offense teams center around physical defense, shouldn't we give this pokemon a healthy amount of special attacking options, given that its attack is equal to its special attack?

Also, the reason I support dive is because, though its not a great move, it does 2 things for me.
1. From an aesthic design point, it furthers its contrast between himself and Gdose.
2. This being a stall pokemon, I could see this pokemon running (though not in the bulky offense counter)
@leftovers
1. Toxic
2. Aqua Ring
3. Dive
4. Earthquake or something.

Its essentially like packing a Protect/Waterfall into one move slot.

 

[Metal~Mario]

It should have Spark as an Egg move.

Mainly for the lulz. And because this guy visually reminds me of Barboach.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Pursuit goes Allowed, while Outrage moves to Controversial.

@Crashic: Except Protect/Waterfall doesn't let an opponent switch in easily. Not to mention Dive's lower base power (IIRC).

-Terywj

 

[CRASHiC]

By the time you are using Dive, it will most likely be against a pokemon who has switched in to counter you. You toxic your switch in (assuming non steel), aqua ring, dive. Its not the greatest move in the world by far, but just like a defensive GDose, it can work well.

Also, both waterfall and dive have a base power of 80.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Ahh. I was too lazy to check Smogon, so thanks!

I'll list Dive as controversial then.

-Teruwk

 

[UltiMario]

I mean, Dive WILL be on it, considering it'll you know, just learn it from being a water type. Its not controvertial, we just forgot to put it on allowed. pretty much. Everything that I can think of that can be compared to SmashCAP1 learns Dive because of that Tutor, so its a virtual given.

 

[CRASHiC]

Well if we are speaking from an aesthic point again, not only is he a water type, but a water type that lives so deep down he's blind, so of course he'd know how to get where he lived

 

[UltiMario]

The lack of actually scouting this thread for ideas and putting them in the first post is disturbing.

*scouts thread*

From what I see, this is what we've REALLY got so far, but I tried to not cram the list, so some stuff is missing altogether that really mustn't be said (mostly for unallowed moves), and it includes things not yet fully determined, but just what appears from the general browsing of the thread. Controvertial is more like an inbetween than actual contrevertial area in this post.

Allowed:
Aqua Tail
Brine
Hydro Pump
Surf
Waterfall
Earthquake
Earth Power
Crunch
Pursuit
Aqua Jet
Ice Beam
Ice Fang
Dive
Rock Slide
Stone Edge
Facade
Bind

Controvertial:
Outrage
Blizzard
Ancientpower
Power Gem
Skull Bash
Dragon Pulse
Double-Edge

Unallowed:
Super Fang
Fire Fang
Thunder Fang
Shadow Ball
Dark Pulse
Zen Headbutt
Feint
Head Smash
Quick Attack
Ice Shard

Require More Discussion to decide:
U-Turn
Iron Head
Avalanche
Uproar
Bullet Punch
Paleowave

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I'm gonna use your list and edit it in, except I'll remove the un-competitive moves.

Remember, we're discussing attacking competitive moves. Things like Bind (which are definitely going to be given to SmashCAP 1) will be discussed when we determine the movelist.

-Terywj

 

[Terrador14]

All righty. This topic needs more life. So, let's see here, I'll put my opinions on the "Need More Discussion to Decide" moves from Ult's list. All righty, here we go:

U-Turn for disallowed. There's really very little reason for this poke to have a Bug move, even if it is the quintessential hit-and-run move. Though it would be useful... I'm opposed.

Iron Head for controversial, namely because cranial moves seem iffy on this poke from previous discussion. However, should we allow Skull Bash, this should go into Allowed as well.

Avalanche for allowed. It's a decently physical Water poke, and it appears that Avalanche has solid distribution among Bulky Waters with good Attack (erm... Pert). Also, Water and Ice go hand-in-hand, so the burden of proof rests more on disallowing it.

Uproar for disallowed. No reason to have it. (Suddenly in a hurry).

Bye!

 

[CRASHiC]

The pokemon just looks like he'd make an uproar. ***** is scary as hell. Can't you see this being like some sort of sea monster or something?