SmashCAP 1: Non-Offensive Move Discussion

[Terywj [태리]]

Since the Offensive Move Discussion did not need a poll...

SmashCAP 1
Concept: Bulky-Offense Counter
Type: Water/ Ground
Ability: Levitate / Unaware
Base stats: 85 / 80 / 140 / 80 / 65 / 90 (BST: 540)

Basically, discuss all competitive moves which are not for offense you think SmashCAP 1 should or shouldn't have, and explain in your post as to why. Flavor posts should mostly be ignored for now.

To make it easier for the whole of the community...please submit moves for the following 3 categories: "allowed," "controversial," and "unallowed."

Allowed attacking moves: Aqua Tail, Brine, Hydro Pump, Surf, Waterfall, Earthquake, Earth Power, Crunch, Pursuit, Aqua Jet, Ice Beam, Ice Fang, Dive, Rock Slide, Dragon Pulse, Blizzard, Ancientpower, Outrage, Double-Edge, Skull Bash, Stone Edge, Iron Head
-----
Allowed moves
Aqua Ring
Rain Dance
Sandstorm
Stealth Rock
Protect
Safeguard
Sleep Talk
Substitute
Taunt
Roar
Curse
Scary Face
Dragon Dance
Stockpile

Pending

Controversial moves

Disllowed moves
Glare
Mean Look
Endure
Haze
Baton Pass
Rock Polish
Mirror Coat
Amnesia
Recover

Provided by Deck Knight from Smogon, here's a link to a helpful page: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1923214&postcount=34

With the conclusion of these, the Counters Discussion will prove more effective once we understand what moves SmashCAP 1 will possess.

Remember, all global forum rules apply! Happy brainstorming!

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

Allowed moves:
Aqua Ring
Rain Dance
Sandstorm
Stealth Rock
Protect
Safeguard
Sleep Talk
Substitute


Controvertial Moves:
Glare
Mean Look
Roar
Scary Face
Recover/Slack Off
Endure
Haze
Amnesia


Disallowed:
Refresh
Baton Pass
Rock Polish

Alloweds are fairly obvious.

Controvertial
Glare is in controvertial for the opportunity to have a paralasis move, seeing as Thunder Wave clearly isn't an option.
Mean Look as a trapping move, works asthetically, similar to Glare
Scary Face is less useful, but it works with the above two.
I'm not sure if this thing can Roar or not.
I have no idea if this guy NEEDS a reliable recovery move or not, nor if it'll make him broken. I just put it up there because it SHOULD be up there.
Endure is meh. I feel like it might be able to learn it. It prolly won't need it though.
Haze is an interesting idea. It generally would get it by type and structure, not sure if it would. I think its a good idea personally, it'd help in walling Crocune and the like.
And Amnesia goes hand-in-hand with Unaware, to an extent. It'd remedy the Special Defense issue if you had a turn to use it, but would it be broken? IDK, thats why its there.

This thing definately doesn't need Refresh, Baton Pass, or Rock Polish, especially the last two together. The last thing we need is an efficient Baton Passing Wall.

Controvertial Enough to deserve its own tier IMO
Dragon Dance

I feel like this one move will make a heck of a rollercoaster for us.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

The "Pending Tier" will be used for all first submissions until discussions provoke it into moving into the other 3 categories.

-Terywj

 

[SilentVerse]

After looking at this, I think it should maybe have Mirror Coat. It already has a low Special Defense, so Mirror Coat might be good to bounce back a weaker special hit? I doubt it will be broken, but I'm not exactly sure. The scales of this thing look like they could possibly reflect something back to me.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

After looking at this, I think it should maybe have Mirror Coat. It already has a low Special Defense, so Mirror Coat might be good to bounce back a weaker special hit? I doubt it will be broken, but I'm not exactly sure. The scales of this thing look like they could possibly reflect something back to me.

Of course, with such pitiful Special Defense what exactly would it bounce back with Mirror Coat?

SmashCAP 1 is immune to Electric, takes neutral from Ice and Water, and resists Fire. Levitate makes it immune to Ground...what's left? Grass obviously, but that'll easily KO it, it won't last to fire back a Mirror Coat.

-Terywj

 

[SilentVerse]

Of course, with such pitiful Special Defense what exactly would it bounce back with Mirror Coat?

SmashCAP 1 is immune to Electric, takes neutral from Ice and Water, and resists Fire. Levitate makes it immune to Ground...what's left? Grass obviously, but that'll easily KO it, it won't last to fire back a Mirror Coat.

-Terywj

Good point, but I was thinking it might bounce back Ice Beams or Surfs from Bulky waters? This thing doesn't look like it's going to threaten them, so rebounding a hit could do some nice damage. I don't really know how much damage it would do without a damage calc though.

 

[Wave⁂]

I vote allow Baton Pass with no boosting moves such as Curse. As a makeshift U-Turn.

Where's Taunt?

Mirror Coat has gimmick potential, and suffers from why-the-hell-not-itis.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Good point, but I was thinking it might bounce back Ice Beams or Surfs from Bulky waters? This thing doesn't look like it's going to threaten them, so rebounding a hit could do some nice damage. I don't really know how much damage it would do without a damage calc though.

That would only be gimmicky / conditional. But for now it's a controversial leaning towards allowed. *Edits*

I vote allow Baton Pass with no boosting moves such as Curse. As a makeshift U-Turn.

Where's Taunt?

Mirror Coat has gimmick potential, and suffers from why-the-hell-not-itis.

Taunt will be added.

I'm opposite. I say disallow Baton Pass but give him weaker stat-up moves. Nothing like Swords Dance (irrational anyways) or Nasty Plot.

And remember! Less flavor arguments!

-Terywj

 

[SilentVerse]

That would only be gimmicky / conditional. But for now it's a controversial leaning towards allowed. *Edits*

Yeah, it's sort of a gimmick, but it would still be nice to have.

Taunt will be added.

I'm opposite. I say disallow Baton Pass but give him weaker stat-up moves. Nothing like Swords Dance (irrational anyways) or Nasty Plot.

And remember! Less flavor arguments!

-Terywj

I'm sorta on the edge if we should give it Baton Pass, since it would make a nice passer if it got boosts and give it a nice scouting move, though I'm not sure if it would be broken. I don't think it should be given good stat up moves if it gets Baton Pass however.

Glare might be an interesting option, since it would cripple sweepers pretty bad. It could help it stop Mence anyways, I think, and would be a good status to spread around. It also looks like this thing could glare really well.

Also, Toxic would probably be a good option to have.

 

[M.K]

If it can't see, how could it Glare?
Glare, while Unaware? No fair!
Tear away Glare, it's only fair.
If you care, an Unaware Glare is not very fair.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Rhyme scheme + flavor arguments = bad.

Especially when 'fair' was used 3 times.

Edit: When this thread reaches conclusion a bold vote poll will be setup by me to determine which controversial moves will be given to SmashCAP 1.

-Terywj

 

[xLeafybug =D]

Would giving SmashCAP a move like Toxic be a bad idea?

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Granted, all Pokemon get Toxic (exceptions like Magikarp, etc.) IIRC, so technically it should. However, being this bulky, and then being able to render a switch-in useless would be pretty effective (broken, not sure).

This of course would just enhance Roserade since she's immune.

-Terywj

 

[Terrador14]

For Recover/Slack Off... NO. Just no. There is little to no reason to have this, and we'll be having some brokenness issues if we give it INSTANT FREAKING RECOVERY.

Amnesia, though fitting the theme well, would easily break this thing. I vote no.

Dragon Dance... I like it. It doesn't break SmashCAP1 in any way. It fits well, considering the dragonish design and precedent for Waters in the form of Gyara, Lapras, and... Whiscash. Physical-worthy Water + HG/SS Dragon Dance tutor + Dragonish design = my logic for allowance.

Rock Polish for disallowed. My reasoning: Rock Polish is, by and large, a Rock-exclusive move. Unless this gets in breeding circles with a Rock/Ground, there's little reason to have it.

Haze: No. There's no reason to have it, useful though it would be for a BO counter.

Glare/Mean Look: No. Reason: Unaware. It can't see.

On the other hand, Scary Face is a good choice. Reason: Scary face. It frightens things that frighten children.

Roar is iffy for me. It lies on whether this finds its way around via sonar to be honest.

I'm all for Endure due to its huge distribution, but it's never going to be used to be honest.

Mirror Coat I'm not all that sure on, but leaning toward "yes". Definitely a good idea considering the scales, but the reasoning isn't all that strong for having a Psychic move... and if it does get Mirror Coat, we need to bring Reflect into the argument.

Baton Pass... I'm sorry; I can't see any reasoning for this. Fun, but no reasoning.

Competitively illegal though it is, this poke should get Double Team, simply because everything else that can move/isn't a total fail does too.

Flail is an obvious choice. Anything with a long body can learn it to the best of my knowledge.

It should know Mud Sport, useless though it is. Ditto for Water Sport.

No other potential moves come to mind.

 

[Wave⁂]

Gliscor learns Rock Polish. As does Metagross. But I agree, disallow.

Competitively, Roar should be allowed.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Roar and Toxic move to pending. Keep in mind anything in the controversial will be the options for the bold vote poll.

Personally I also support not having Rock Polish as well as Recover.

Edit: While it does get Double Team. It's illegal and therefore not needed on this list..

-Terywj

 

[supermarth64]

Now that I actually look at the picture of the CAPmon besides its body, the eye showing seems a bit... pale.

 

[UltiMario]

Thats because its blind.

 

[Circa]

I'm assuming Rest is a given, but if not then I'd like to add it to allowed. Reason being is that, as a wall, it's going to want some form of recovery. And considering everyone is saying no to Recover/Slack Off, well...it's going to need it.

That said, I say Slack Off/Recover should be a YES, but only if it DOESN'T get Dragon Dance. I believe Hippowdon and Skarmory are strong enough proof that instant recovery on extremely powerful physical walls isn't a bad thing. If it gets Dragon Dance however, then the combination could easily make it a complete nuisance as a late-game sweeper. And...I don't think that would exactly be a good thing.

As for Dragon Dance, I personally prefer the existence of Slack Off/Recover. But that's honestly just my preference, as I prefer playing with more stall-ish teams. (Sorry for the flavor text, but I didn't know what else to say about it.)

Mean Look and Glare should be disallowed for Terrador's reason. It's blind...how is it going to look or glare in the first place? Block on the other hand...well I could see it getting that maybe. I don't know why exactly or if others agree with me, but it does at least seem a bit more viable. Possibly add that to pending instead?

Baton Pass...oh god I can't decide. On one end I think that giving it this move with no boosting moves would ruin its potential to use that awesome offensive movepool it has. However! If it gets Block, then it would make for the most viable TrapPasser in the game. That...may be a little broken though, so...meh, I don't know. Other people can discuss that.

Rock Polish seems unneeded to me, as its offensive stats don't merit a good use for it without giving it Baton Pass or Swords Dance as well. I vote disallowed.

Amnesia is just too much when regarding its base defensive stats. I vote disallowed.

Roar for allowed. Even if it doesn't make complete sense aesthetically, it's going to want a way to get rid of those counters you predict on the switch-in.

Toxic isn't broken at all on something that can stall. In fact, I'd say its lack of other status-inducing moves makes Toxic even more of a need in its movepool. Thus, I vote allowed.

Haze for allowed. Most people will opt for Roar if it gets it, but Haze makes for a nice alternative if you don't want to gamble your chances on a bad switch-in.

I also have two additional non-offensive options that can be discussed in Curse and Stockpile. The former is a nice way of letting it be an even stronger physical wall while letting it boost its Attack stat to a usable level, and the latter fits extremely well aesthetically (being blind, deaf, and a really heavy trench snake means it's going to want an extremely slow metabolism to keep from dying of starvation as it'll probably go on for days without finding food), while also giving it a way to raise its SDef without becoming borderline broken. All in all, I would say both of these options fit it well enough to deserve strong consideration.

And sorry if I included unneeded comments or some of my points didn't make a lot of sense. I'm extremely tired right now and can't even really see the screen well.

 

[xLeafybug =D]

Roar should be allowed, It prevents SmashCAP from becoming setup fodder for Pokemon like Suicune.

Recover/Slack Off for disallowed. There's a difference between making a Pokemon good, and making a Pokemon broken.

Don't all Pokemon learn Curse?

 

[Circa]

Pokemon who don't get Curse, the A's: Abomasnow, Alakazam, Altaria, Ambipom, Ampharos, Arbok, Arcanine, Arceus, Ariados, Articuno, Azelf, Azumarill. And that's just the A's. As you can see, there's actually a really high number of Pokemon that don't get Curse.

As for Recover/Slack Off, ehh...I didn't think it looked like it would be broken because of its SDef and because I was looking at Hippowdon's ability to wall for comparison, but I just pulled out a damage calc using Timid Gengar's Shadow Ball vs 252/0 SmashCAP and it only took out 50% of its health. So...I guess I'll take my vote back. Disallowed. I still don't believe it's broken, but...I guess there's enough reason to be skeptical. :\

 

[UltiMario]

Swampert, Quagsire, and Gastrodon get Curse, so why not SmashCAP1? It'll still get Pseudohazed, and it takes 2 curses for it to be an impervious physical wall, and it'd take 3-4 for it to be able to sweep with physical attacks. Thats still a lot of Curses, and a lot of time to take it down with special attacks.

 

[supermarth64]

That said, I say Slack Off/Recover should be a YES, but only if it DOESN'T get Dragon Dance. I believe Hippowdon and Skarmory are strong enough proof that instant recovery on extremely powerful physical walls isn't a bad thing. If it gets Dragon Dance however, then the combination could easily make it a complete nuisance as a late-game sweeper. And...I don't think that would exactly be a good thing.

As for Dragon Dance, I personally prefer the existence of Slack Off/Recover. But that's honestly just my preference, as I prefer playing with more stall-ish teams. (Sorry for the flavor text, but I didn't know what else to say about it.)

That's be easy enough. Just give it both but on separate egg breeding lines.

 

[RuNNing Riot]

Refresh, Recover/Slack Off and Amnesia get a 'Disallowed' from me. This Pokemon is immune to Paralysis already, and thanks to Unaware it doesn't care about stat-uppers either. If you give it Refresh the only thing that could stop this thing would be unresisted Special hits, and Grass Knot is already walled by too many Pokemon in OU. And of those unresisted hits only Psychic and Ghost are predominantly special. Psychic is very uncommon given Tyranitar and Scizor, which leaves Ghost as the biggest problem. And Kupo has already taken the liberty of telling us what the most used Ghost type Pokemon can do against SmashCAP. Give it Amnesia and it walls just about everything, which is broken.

Rock Polish I'd allow, I suppose. With only average attacking stats I can't see this thing sweeping with Rock Polish without using impractical amounts of attacking EVs and sacrificing its defensive ability. So why not?

Dragon Dance for controversial. Personally, with this thing's low Sp. Def. stat and without Amnesia, it could get killed off before it can get a boost quite easily (Starmie and Latias spring to mind). Though with immunity to Sandstorm, high Speed, and resistance or neutrality to the most common priority moves in Bullet Punch, Ice Shard and Aqua Jet, it might still be able to pull off a couple of DDs anyway.

 

[UltiMario]

I agree with supermarth64's statement

Also, Writer's Gengar example doesn't do justice. If it switches in on Shadow Ball, then SmashCAP1 just gets 2HKO'd.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

That's be easy enough. Just give it both but on separate egg breeding lines.

I really like this comment.

Block, besides being able to properly predict a counter switch-in and trapping it won't be all that beneficial. Especially if said counter (most likely Bronzong, Skarmory, and Roserade) can use the turn switching out to spread status. I say disallowed.

Roar has enough support and moves into the Allowed. Although I'm probably not moving anymore moves at this point. All the pendings and controversials will be put in a poll, so yeah.

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

Is really my list like almost the only thing we're discussing?

Did I cover it that well?

 

[Circa]

That's be easy enough. Just give it both but on separate egg breeding lines.

I hadn't even thought of that, although that's definitely an idea I like. I could go for that.

Also, Writer's Gengar example doesn't do justice. If it switches in on Shadow Ball, then SmashCAP1 just gets 2HKO'd.

Switching in SmashCAP1 to Gengar is basically suicide in the first place. The only reason why I would ever even consider doing that is if it was mid to late game and I knew that his Gengar was choiced; in which case I might make the switch if the sacrifice is necessary to get something more important in safely. Apart from that though, there's no way you're switching it into Gengar.

Muk, now I can't decide on Slack Off/Recover. I guess I'll just say it's controversial and leave it at that. I don't exactly think it's broken tbh (this thing already screams 4 moveslot syndrome to me), but others seem to think so. So...I'd rather vote on it later after some serious thinking.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Oh and what we'll do in case we still have pending moves by the time the polls need to be up (still havem't decided on a date for that):

A bold vote poll for the pending moves will take place. The 'winners' will move to controversial while the others go disallowed.

The a bold vote poll to decide on the controversials will take place.

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

OK, so, a Multi-Choice poll. Then we draw a cutoff line of how much a move needs to get to be legal in correlation to how many people voted. Right?

It doesn't look like we'll be getting anymore discussion here, so a poll can be made relatively soon IMO.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

OK, so, a Multi-Choice poll. Then we draw a cutoff line of how much a move needs to get to be legal in correlation to how many people voted. Right?

It doesn't look like we'll be getting anymore discussion here, so a poll can be made relatively soon IMO.

Yep. In fact I was thinking of doing the bold vote poll for the pendings right now, I just want a good number for a cutoff line.

We have like...15-ish people here right? So maybe 9-10?

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

What if not that many people vote during the 2-3 days you guys keep the polls open?

I mean, We need the cutoff to be proportional to how many people voted, so if only 1 thing has 11 when you cut off at 10, that doesn't quite work.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Hm...well then what do you suggest? I suppose just lengthened the timespan could work, but we need two of those just for this stage, and we've already spent way too long on SmashCAP 1.

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

I mean, if it looks like
10
10
9
8
7
7
6
5
2
2
1
1
1
1
1



etc, the cutoff would be clear.

Just make he poll and makethe cutoff where its obvious.

But if all else fails, half the highest-voted thing (Possibly +1) would work.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9336083#post9336083

And here it is.

-Terywj

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Think it's safe for me to close it now? I think everyone's voted on it (Riddle hasn't)...I wanna get the next one out..

Opinions?

-Terywj

 

[Terywj [태리]]

With the two polls completed, here's what it looks like.

Allowed moves
Aqua Ring
Rain Dance
Sandstorm
Stealth Rock
Protect
Safeguard
Sleep Talk
Substitute
Taunt
Roar
Curse
Scary Face
Dragon Dance
Stockpile

Now to decide all the level-up moves and blargh.

Requesting lock and move.

-Terywj