Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

[Frihetsanka]

Some thoughts after Genesis 4:

I think it is pretty clear that Duck Hunt is not Low tier. I also think it's pretty clear that the character have flaws significant enough so that DH won't be high-mid tier. Maybe DH should be mid tier, but should DH be higher than Wario, Mr. Game & Watch, or Shulk? I am not sure, but I think my initial choice to put DH as #4 in this tier was pretty accurate. Perhaps DH could move up to #3, although Mr. Game & Watch does have some merits still.

Maybe Pac-Man is better than Little Mac? Sinji's #33 placement is pretty good for a character like Pac-Man.

 

[Bigbomb2]

Despite the small player base each of these characters can do well when they appear. Not all the time but it's always possible. They just have to work a lot harder than a good portion above them.

 

[Tizio Random]

Mid Tier (-):

 

[Frihetsanka]

It doesn't look like any character will move up this round either. Are people forgetting that they can vote characters up? I'm a bit worried about next round, since clearly deserve to move up, and one could easily make a case for as well, yet by the current rules only one can move up (probably Bowser or Donkey Kong).

 

[L9999]

It doesn't look like any character will move up this round either. Are people forgetting that they can vote characters up? I'm a bit worried about next round, since clearly deserve to move up, and one could easily make a case for as well, yet by the current rules only one can move up (probably Bowser or Donkey Kong).

I would say Weegee deserves it more than the heavies or Robin. Elegant placed 9th solo Luigi at the most stacked thing ever and has overcomed MUs cited as bad like Sheik and sword guys.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I would say Weegee deserves it more than the heavies or Robin. Elegant placed 9th solo Luigi at the most stacked thing ever and has overcomed MUs cited as bad like Sheik and sword guys.

There's currently little hype for Luigi, and arguably more for Donkey Kong (I'd argue Tweek's win with Donkey Kong are more impressive than Elegant's wins with Luigi) and Bowser (thanks to Nairo). What's important is that one character moves up though, it'd suck if the votes were split over 3-4 character (who all probably deserve to move up anyway).

Actually, with this being said, maybe I should change my vote this round to Shulk? It's better to have one character move up that no character, I suppose, and Shulk was #2 on my list anyway.

Edit: Seems I miscounted the votes. Might as well stay on Wario for now, though he probably won't move up either.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'd say Luigi being a CP for Bayonetta and Diddy, while being decent still when solo is more relevant than Bowser and DK overall. CPing two of the most common characters is uh, pretty great. He's probably the most important pocket character this side of Cloud now.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Wew havent been here in a while. Anyway

Low Mid tier:

 

[Wintermelon43]

My tier vote is gonna be Little Mac down a tier

 

[Deleted member]

Looks like either or will be moving up. I'm fine with this.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Looks like either or will be moving up. I'm fine with this.

Shulk has 3 upvotes, Wario has 4 upvotes, Little Mac has one downvote and Pac-Man has one downvote, out of 17 votes in total. Right now it doesn't seem like anyone is moving up.

 

[Bowserboy3]

On the topic of the next tier, I too believe that , and (as of right now) all have the most potential to move up (I emphasise the point "as of right now"; and have been pretty hot topics in the past for one reason or another).

Out of these three, I still believe has the least "reason" to move up. Like Nidtendofreak mentioned, doing good against Diddy and Bayonetta (still reluctant to 100% believe this as a Bayonetta player myself though) is a huge credit to him. Bowser also hasn't done a and won a stacked MSM on a solo run, defeating multiple top players in the process (and winning in supposed "bad MU's"). This is certainly nothing to be sniffed at (this also adds more backing to my opinion of "DK is better than Bowser", but that's a different argument for another day).

On tiers above, I think is the biggest elephant in the room; he's a character that needs to be moved down more than anyone in the Mid (+) Tier.

If we consider the fact that one character may move up this time, it kind of bothers me how little characters will be in this tier; I still think could have moved up and helped pad out that tier more...

 

[Frihetsanka]

Like Nidtendofreak mentioned, doing good against Diddy and Bayonetta[...].

Also Fox.

Bowser also hasn't done a and won a stacked MSM on a solo run, defeating multiple top players in the process (and winning in supposed "bad MU's"). This is certainly nothing to be sniffed at (this also adds more backing to my opinion of "DK is better than Bowser", but that's a different argument for another day).

True enough, though a lot of people seem to prefer Bowser, and I'd rather have one character move up that's slightly worse than the others than having none of them move up. I don't really care which one of these three moves up, they all deserve it anyway.

On tiers above, I think is the biggest elephant in the room; he's a character that needs to be moved down more than anyone in the Mid (+) Tier.

I tried to move him down, though that was when I thought tier 4 was Lower High tier. I think the two biggest issues are Corrin's placement and Lucina's. I think Lucina is a lost cause so I'll be pushing for moving Corrin up. I don't think she's a top tier but I think she's at the lower end of high tier.

If we consider the fact that one character may move up this time, it kind of bothers me how little characters will be in this tier; I still think could have moved up and helped pad out that tier more...

I think "helping pad" is a pretty bad argument for moving a character into a tier. Samus should be low-mid tier if she's good enough to be low-mid tier. I think she might be, but seems the majority did not.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I think "helping pad" is a pretty bad argument for moving a character into a tier. Samus should be low-mid tier if she's good enough to be low-mid tier. I think she might be, but seems the majority did not.

I'm not saying to move her up to "pad out" the tier. What I am saying is, if she did move up, it would make the tier less small.

I appreciate the reply, but that's taking my quote way out of context.

Besides, I personally believed she could have moved up there regardless, the same as you.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'm not saying to move her up to "pad out" the tier. What I am saying is, if she did move up, it would make the tier less small.

I appreciate the reply, but that's taking my quote way out of context.

Besides, I personally believed she could have moved up there regardless, the same as you.

That's fine, though it did sound like she should move up in order to pad the tier, even if that wasn't what you intended. Now it's cleared up though. To make it more clear, you could have written something like this:
"[...]could have moved up, and that would also have helped pad out that tier more..."

But yeah, no big deal. I understand what you meant now, and I agree.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Frankly I'd want to reorganize Mid and Mid+ entirely. Pits, Lucas, Peach, Corrin all need to move down. Luigi, Bowser, DK, need to move up. Lucina needs to move up into bottom of High Tier, Link needs to move down into top of Mid-.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Pits, Lucas, Peach, Corrin all need to move down.

Emphasis mine. Corrin is generally considered to have 6-8 losing MUs, none worse than 40-60 at worst, and a lot of winning MU. Why should she move down? Do you think she has more losing MUs that Corrin-mains underestimate?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Emphasis mine. Corrin is generally considered to have 6-8 losing MUs, none worse than 40-60 at worst, and a lot of winning MU. Why should she move down? Do you think she has more losing MUs that Corrin-mains underestimate?

Probably. Particularly since, as I've been saying for a while, Corrin's results as a whole ain't lining up when it comes to the international stage.

Look at G4. How many Corrins were there in the top 50? As many as there were Ikes and Roys... because the same guy played all three (and he might not have even used Corrin except for in the last set he lost. Lack of streams makes it hard to know, but what people were saying in the topics it sounded like Ryo used Ike and Roy more). Yes Ryuga and Cosmos weren't there, but for how much hype people like to believe Corrin has that would only explain a lack of a showing in say the top 16 or top 32. Instead Corrin is functioning more like a very good (probably best) mid tier. Heck Ness did better at G4 than Corrin, and a lot of people think Ness should be bumped down to Mid.

If his MU chart was as strong as they say, Corrin would still get a fair bit of secondary use at the top level. And its at the top level in particular where that's fallen off. Mid level? Still a good amount of Corrins, no denying that he's getting results at that level. But at the top the character as a whole is not functioning like a high tier. A bunch of those winning MUs are probably actually neutral, and some of Corrin's current neutral MUs are probably slightly losing. He's not living up to his hype despite his very high amount of usage overall, he's falling outside of the bubble. I wouldn't say this yet, but at the rate things are looking Luigi is going to be more important than Corrin by a good margin... and Luigi ain't high tier. If the Bowser usage doesn't drop off in the coming months I'd say Bowser could move ahead of Corrin as well and again, wouldn't call Bowser high tier either. Same with DK if MKLeo keeps using him and others follow suit.

 

[jespoke]

Corrin is a pretty solid character that doesn't stand out in terms of gameplay nor popularity. I am very hesitant to move them any further down given they are light on weaknesses and have a good but travel restricted main around in Cosmos.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Corrin is a pretty solid character that doesn't stand out in terms of gameplay nor popularity. I am very hesitant to move them any further down given they are light on weaknesses and have a good but travel restricted main around in Cosmos.

There comes a point though where a character has to be docked because their mains don't travel.

San doesn't travel much. He'll go to GOML and continue to place as well as always there with Ike, but he's not running out to every international tournament and Ike's results suffer a bit for that. Ike's placement on the tier list in turn suffers for it. End of the day, the tier list is a reflection of the entire metagame, not just pocket areas. The fact Cosmos does well in his particular area does help Corrin out a bit... but the fact he doesn't travel hurts Corrin a lot as well. Gotta acknowledge both sides of the coin. And this particular side of the coin says Corrin's few dedicated mains don't travel enough to warrant being so high up.

 

[Frihetsanka]

If his MU chart was as strong as they say, Corrin would still get a fair bit of secondary use at the top level.

Cloud and Marth are better, so it makes sense for them to be more popular than Corrin. I think that if Cosmos and Ryuga started to travel we'd see Corrin placing higher in tournaments. Marth was considered a high-mid tier character for a while as well, but after MkLeo a lot of people changed their mind. Perhaps the same thing will happen with Corrin.

It's possible that I'm wrong and Corrin is not as good as I think she is. It's also possible that she's simply underused because other options are better. I think time will be on my side and it'll become clear that she deserves to be high tier, although we'll see, I suppose. It's possible that I'm wrong.

I'm pretty okay with upvoting Lucina as well, she deserves to be in high tier (and I'm not really sure who is stronger, both Corrin and Lucina seem to be of similar strength).

 

[TDK]

-

G&W is Ass and has no business being in this tier. Regi's results are massively overblown, too.

 

[Frihetsanka]

So... Do we vote under the assumption that we use the old stage striking rules, or the new stage striking rules? Certain characters, such as Little Mac, are better with the new rules, while others, such as Corrin, are worse. If Little Mac will never be forced to go to Duck Hunt and can spend a ban on Smashville he'll be better off, perhaps enough to move him up a few spots in low-mid tier.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Just of note, I'll be updating the list either tomorrow or the day after, so now's the time to vote/edit any previous votes.

 

[QualityQ]

So... Do we vote under the assumption that we use the old stage striking rules, or the new stage striking rules? Certain characters, such as Little Mac, are better with the new rules, while others, such as Corrin, are worse. If Little Mac will never be forced to go to Duck Hunt and can spend a ban on Smashville he'll be better off, perhaps enough to move him up a few spots in low-mid tier.

I plan on sticking with the old stage rules. There's enough disagreement with the new stage striking rules to question their merit. Plus almost all the tournament data we have uses the old stage rules.

 

[MarioManTAW]

What happened with the stage striking?

 

[Bowserboy3]

In regards to the ruleset, as with anything, just continue to vote on what you as a player see the right way to vote.

While the ruleset changes may "benefit" certain characters in one way or another, the changes aren't going to be enough to bolster their standing in the metagame up much, if at all.

For example, likes the removal of Duck Hunt a lot; the fact he no longer has to deal with getting timed out on that stage is a huge benefit (that or having to waste a ban on that stage in particular).

But think about this... does the removal of this stage fix Mac's core issues? Does it buff his recovery? Does it buff his air game? Does it change the fact that he could still lose his stock off of one throw and an off stage hit/read?... I don't think I need to answer that.

Besides, if any changes may happen, it would likely be closer to the top of the list anyway, you know, where the actual hugely relevant characters are (I keep seeing the idea of becoming the best character once again with no real place to counterpick her to, for example). Again, they'd be minor nitpicks, but those are yet to be voted upon.

Things'll work out fine, don't you worry.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I slightly changed my vote. I moved Shulk, Duck Hunt, Little Mac, and Pac-Man up a step, and I also added an upvote for Shulk.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Of note, I'm also deciding to give an upvote now, after Gluttony's impressive 2nd place at a tournament I can't remember the name of in Germany over the weekend (Dabuz was also in attendance - surprise, he won it).

 

[QualityQ]

Besides, if any changes may happen, it would likely be closer to the top of the list anyway, you know, where the actual hugely relevant characters are (I keep seeing the idea of becoming the best character once again with no real place to counterpick her to, for example). Again, they'd be minor nitpicks, but those are yet to be voted upon.

Things'll work out fine, don't you worry.

Riddle me this...

gets to choose either smashville or final destination, no matter what bans. But can't get battlefield or townandcity, assuming a ban.

Madness.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Of note, I'm also deciding to give an upvote now, after Gluttony's impressive 2nd place at a tournament I can't remember the name of in Germany over the weekend (Dabuz was also in attendance - surprise, he won it).

Guess I'll change my upvote back now that Wario has some chance of moving up. Both Wario and Shulk should move up though, although the rules don't currently allow it.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Riddle me this...

gets to choose either smashville or final destination, no matter what bans. But can't get battlefield or townandcity, assuming a ban.

Madness.

> implying ZSS isn't good on Smashville.

ZSS is still good on Smashville; it's still got a low celing and the closer side blastzones means things like Uair to Fair near the ledge can KO earlier than normal (as well as Boost Kick [potentially OoS] near the ledge). The fact that the stage is smaller makes it easier to threaten/space/poke/pressure etc with Zair too.

But what you say about Sheik... this is what people keep saying.

It's funny, we ask for her to be nerfed for over a year, and we finally get her to a solid point of balance... and then change the rules heavily in her favour...

Things might not turn out as people are assuming however. We've just got to let the dust settle first.

---

I'm going to update in around 4 hours or so - I'll have time to do so then. As usual, I'll let you all know officially when it's happening.

 

[Bowserboy3]

UPDATING...

UPDATED

Usual end of round results and ramblings... yadayada:

As before, no character had a clear cut percentage to warrant moving up. Had Wario gained a couple more + votes, he may have moved up (as he also had a much lower average total than 2nd place, Shulk).

Duck Hunt and G&W were EXTREMELY close. One more swap between them could have swayed their positions.

And despite receiving no - votes, Palutena was the lowest ranked character this time, with Little Mac placing just above her, despite receiving the most - votes (still only 2).

Anyway, onto the next tier: Mid Tier.

Spoiler: Rules

With the naming phase out of the way, we can focus on each individual tier. In these rounds, we go one tier at a time and settle on a proper order for the characters.

What's more, during these rounds, you can even vote to move ONE character Up or Down a tier (new tiers will not be created at the top or the bottom).

With Mid (-) voted and locked, we can move onto the Mid Tier:

Mid Tier:,,,,,,,,

Your vote can be these characters in whatever order you like. For example, you can have Wario at the top, the 2nd place, the last place, wherever you like. Just be sure not to add or remove characters in this tier.

Here's an example vote

Mid Tier: ,,,,,,,,
-1

Here, this voter wants to see Ike go down a tier, so Ike is placed at the bottom of the tier, and is given a - vote. The opposite is true for giving a + vote; if the voter wanted to vote up DK for example, DK would be placed at the top and would be given a + vote. However, remember you can only + or - vote one character.

The character with the a noticeable amount of + or - votes will move up or down to the next tier. However, they cannot be voted upon in the next round, and will be left in a set of brackets to symbolise this: ( ).

Spoiler: Current List as of 4.18

Top Tier:,,,,,,,,,
High Tier:,,,,,,,
Mid Tier (+):,,,,,,,,
Mid Tier:,,,,,,,,
Mid Tier (-) [LOCKED]:,,,,,,
Low Tier [LOCKED]:,,,,/,,,
Bottom Tier [LOCKED]:,,,,,

My vote:
Mid Tier: ,,,,,,,,
+1

Also, any votes that include the over the icon will be ignored because the Male Robin is clearly the superior skin.

...

 

[Deleted member]

-1

 

[TDK]

+1

If I could move Bowser and Olimar too I'd love to.

EDIT: Added Yoshi since I managed to miss him.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

+

Luigi has become a very important CP character. Good MU against Bayonetta, Fox, Mario, and Diddy means he's one of the best pocket characters to have in the game. I'd put that above Bowser and DK's accomplishments.

Ike has zero reason to move down. The 2016 total results that Das Koopa posted up a while back had his results in this range rather than the range below his (Over twice the results of Shulk at 139.5 vs 65 and half of you seem to think Shulk is somehow better?) Like really, I'll remind you all that this post exists: https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...ive-impressions.440784/page-215#post-21612436 just look at the last spoiler.

Yes results aren't everything without a doubt and I can hear the people claiming it was all from the earlier part of 2016. But have you looked at Ike's results the last two moves? Moving back up and I'm not talking one or two results or even mostly secondary usage. One of them was Ryuga's secondary usage of Ike, almost all of the rest was solo usage in tournaments with over 100 people.

Ike is still one of the very very very few characters that can claim to have an advantage over Sonic (a list that probably fits on one hand), and his overall MU spread once past the top 3 is extremely manageable. Top 3 are still winnable, just starts to become quite noticeably up hill. The "recommended" rule set doesn't hurt him really either: he doesn't care much what stage he plays on outside of specific situations and now he can block those stages consistently.

That ain't a low tier, er, sorry uh "(-) Mid tier". Ike is mid tier.

 

[Bigbomb2]

+ Olimar feels like he's on the rise these days. Probably need about 3 years just to figure out that MU too (least for me)

 

[Zerp]

+1

 

[MarioManTAW]

+ How did he get down here?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

+ How did he get down here?

By having a massive overall lull in results for months that was only broken this month.